I enjoy how you treat this like Kirk is a real person and not pointing out movies and episodes but events in his life

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

It is a fun way to do it =)

Perhaps Kirk met Antonia when he was young then met her again later in life. It would be nice to have young Lt. James Kirk meet her in Strange New Worlds to show why this woman is mesmorizing or so important. Definitely a story worth telling. Thanks for a great video.

I like how this vid starts with a clip from the very first episode I ever saw, when I was 4 years old way back in 1984. That night changed my life forever and I've been a complete Trek addict ever since.

Bones: "All that time in space, getting on each other's nerves. And what do we do when shore leave comes along? We spend it together. Other people have families." Kirk: "Other people, Bones. Not us."

Enjoyed the summary of Kirk’s life. Thank you.

Glad to have you back. You were missed.

Fantastic Bio! You forgot one HUGE thing, about Kirk though! His intense Love for his ship and how it borders on the unhealthy. His devotion towards his lady Enterprise repeatedly gets in the way of him being able to share a similar life-long bond with an actual woman. In Season 1,"The Naked Time", Kirk tells Spock, "Love. You're better off without it, and I'm better off without mine! This vessel, I give, she takes. She won't permit me my life. I've got to live hers." In Season 3's "The Paradise Syndrome", Kirk's memory is wiped clean, but he's happier than ever as he falls in love, gets married and is about to become a dad. However, despite having no memory of the Enterprise, the ship calls to him. Persistent dreams of a "strange lodge that moves through the sky" haunt him. We also hear it mentioned quite a few times through TOS that Kirk is "married" to his ship. Though the entire crew has a great fondness for the Enterprise- for Kirk it goes beyond that. His devotion to that particular ship is such that any woman he tries to date, essentially becomes 'the other woman'.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

I'm pretty sure that Kirk didn't experience 78 years worth of time in the Nexus. When Picard first meets the historic captain, Kirk tells him that it was only a few moments ago that he was on the Enterprise-B Part of this is because time passes differently in the Nexus compared to the "normal" universe (according to Guinan).

@colonelquack

11 ай бұрын

Non-linear time, comrade.

@MatthewCaunsfield

11 ай бұрын

@@colonelquack Outside normal time for sure. I wouldn't call it "non-linear" though, as Kirk & Picard's interactions had a beginning, middle and end.

@dashfatbastard

10 ай бұрын

We don't know that. Yes, Guinan says is that they experience time differently. It could easily be experienced as in, say, "Groundhog Day". Think of The Nexus as life itself existing in an inertial state. Visitors take in the property of matter and continues in their existing state of rest or uniform motion....moving in a straight line, unless that state is acted upon by an outside force. Kirk found his point of bliss and kept re-experiencing it through his own metaphysical "inertia" until his state was changed by the outside force of Picard's intercession.

@balung

10 ай бұрын

They never left the Nexus.

@MatthewCaunsfield

10 ай бұрын

@@balung It would explain a great many things! 😁

My headcanon is that Antonia was a fellow survivor of Tarsus IV who was herself an explorer of sorts who was in the process of setting down in Idaho. In her, he saw a kind of potential fitting, peaceful conclusion for himself and with someone who truly *gets* him. But he was too afraid to admit his time was coming to a close as she had. He regretted refusing himself a peaceful conclusion.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

That would be pretty great as a start!

@DannyPhantomBeast

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertisethink a cross between Captain Batel, Tasha Yar, Cassidy, and Picard Season 3 Beverly Crusher. A former frontier doctor? A retiring Space Laura Croft? Maybe she’s even slightly older than him. Someone who made him go “oh, this would be a good death.”

James -R- T Kirk. Nice touch. It takes a true Trek fan to know that reference.

I've been waiting on a video like this about Garak for years.

This is the best episode you’ve produced. Bravo sir, and thank you!

I'd always taken 'star fleet doens't admit women' was her thinking that she had been rejected as being gender rather than psychological, and this is such an old argument that kirk has stopped trying to correct her.

@Corbomite_Meatballs

11 ай бұрын

So, according to the credits the story for "Turnabout Intruder" was written by Roddenberry, and I wonder if the dialogue was a really hamfisted way to get back at NBC, his critics, etc. going back to them forcing him to get rid of Number One from the original pilot. It may have also just been the treatment or perceptions of women in the late 60's creeping into the show. Whatever the reason, it makes for a detrimental bit of canon if it's the way the story showed that she wasn't fit to be a starship captain. It could've been done a lot better.

@singletona082

11 ай бұрын

@@Corbomite_Meatballs Oh absolutely.

As every 'to-the-bone' Starfleet Captain, Jimbo Tibby Kirk died on a bridge. . . . . "BA DUM TSSS!!"

I read on a website that it was considered to have Kirk with Edith Keeler in the Nexus. On balance this was an outstanding video. The issue with Generations is that the movie just wanted Picard and Kirk to have an adventure. They never thought about Kirk's story

21:20 From what I’ve remember reading in The Fifty-Year Mission, the fact they made up Antonia instead of Edith Keeler or Carol Marcus was a Rick Berman note (of course) that was basically “Don’t alienate the audience with deep cuts.”

Even as a little kid, before countless prequels and sequels confirmed it, I always took Lester's "your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" line to be about him choosing his career over their relationship, not any absurd ban on female starship captains. Thus there's nothing to "fix". Guinan said that from his perspective he'd just arrived in the nexus, and he certainly seemed like it was all new to him.

@SlimThrull

10 ай бұрын

Roddenberry used that episode as a parable for the women's movement of the 1960s. I'm not going to tell you how you should take it, I can only offer that it was meant literally when Lester said that. No episode of TOS ever featured a woman as Captain. Enterprise did eventually, but that was pre-federation and different rules, maybe? (Though, one HAS to wonder how they went from equality for men and women and then 100 years later it suddenly didn't exists. Kinda weird. I don't think this was ever properly addressed in canon until Captain Batel came along in SNW. With Batel being a captain (and 10ish years BEFORE Kirk's Enterprise) it makes your view make much more sense (at least insofar as canon goes). My personal? I always assumed Number One was promoted to Captain at some point before Kirk got the job. Pike was teaching at the Academy at the time of the accident. Kirk wasn't yet captain, so it made sense (at least to me) that Number One got the chair. Of course, this also goes against what Roddenberry wanted for the Lester episode. I guess everyone is allowed their own head canon regardless of what Roddenberry wanted.

@user-nv8zd4gb3e

10 ай бұрын

Kirk's devotion to that specific ship- The Enterprise- is such that any woman he tries to date, essentially becomes 'the other woman'.

@user-nv8zd4gb3e

10 ай бұрын

@@SlimThrull That's not true though. TOS did feature a woman captain in "The Enterprise Incident"

@SlimThrull

10 ай бұрын

@@user-nv8zd4gb3e Did they? I don't recall that. I'll look into it later today.

@user-nv8zd4gb3e

10 ай бұрын

The romulan Captain that had a thing for spock. I Believe the episode was "The Enterprise Incident". Also in the animated series, which Roddenberry was also in charge of, there is an episode where Uhura takes command of the Enterprise and saves the day.@@SlimThrull

Young Kirk played by Paul Wesley could meet old Kirk played by Shatner in the Nexus on a time travel mission in Strange New Worlds. Make it so, please!! We need to get Shatner back in Star Trek one more time for the fans!!!

Beautiful and insightful guys. Well done, biography was brilliant and commentary afterward was very deep and clever. Brings a tear to the eye. Thanks

Glad to see you back in form Kyle. 🖖

David on the bridge would be the heart warming/retching moment Kirk realizes it's not real... way more moving than jumping a creek horseback.

Merry Christmas! 🙂 ❤ And more, more, more videos... and more often! Like during the olden days; 5 to 9 years ago.

@Trekspertise

6 ай бұрын

Thank you, and yes! We wish this, too. We do have another big video coming...all about aliens.

Always look forward to seeing your work man. Beautifully written and edited. Thank you😊

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

We appreciate that! Thank you :)

Kirk DID NOT experience 78 years in the Nexus. In the movie, Guinan explicitly tells Picard that from Kirk's perspective "he just got here." Then, after Picard meets Kirk, Kirk tells him that he was just on the Enterprise B moments ago. So, we got to see most all of the time Kirk spent in the Nexus in the movie. The reason for the time difference between what Picard experienced vs. Kirk is that time works differently in the Nexus.

In Shatner's non-canon (and awful) Trek novels, Kirk is resurrected by the Borg, beats up Worf, because of course he does, and then sets out on a whole new set of adventures with cybernetic superpowers.

@ericbaker8781

8 күн бұрын

Sounds like you mean non-cannon and awesome

Its always a pleasure to see a notification of a new video from you guys!

FINALLY THEY UPLOADED....I mean this in the best way possible :)

This is excellent, thanks for all your work on this channel

@Trekspertise

6 ай бұрын

Our pleasure!

woah new trekspertise! A welcome surprise!

What if la'an is antonia?

3:19 Janice Lester was insane. We saw how insane she was. Usually crazy people blame others for their failures. She claims Starfleet is sexist and doesn’t allow women captains. We shouldn’t take her word as she tried to execute crew members on her first day as captain. Kirk could have been humoring her as it’s also silly to argue with a sick person. It’s more likely she was unfit for command.

@chrismais

11 ай бұрын

Unlikely since Number One was an e executive officer on the Enterprise next to Pike commanding the USS Enterprise back then. To allow women as first officers on the promotion track and not captains just the rank above seems irrational and unwarranted.

@krazzeeaj

10 ай бұрын

This. I never put much stock into what she said. She clearly wasn't fit for command based solely on the actions we saw. The best he could do was just agree with her point of view to keep her placated.

In the nick of time, he regrets that he has "no beach to walk on" with someone he loves. It really tugged at my heart.

Well done video. Good job with the style, and presentation. 👍

8:44 GOODNESS GRACIOUS GOLLY OH MOLLY Uhura, are those things real??!

That was an excellent overview of Kirk's life, free of tropes and memes. I think from Kirk's point of view, he didn't spend 78 years in the Nexus, that he had just gotten there and felt the need to chop some firewood for his first evening at the cabin. If the movie had taken the direction of when Kirk enters the Nexus he's back on the bridge of the original Enterprise again, the possibilities of exploring that could have made it the greatest Trek of them all. I seem to remember young Kirk as being pretty good or better at spotting illusion and recognising the need to break it. It would be interesting to see how his need for family would make him more vulnerable to the illusion of being back on his old ship again. I would have loved to have seen it. Subscribed!

Well done my friend! This is one of your best works in your entire repertoire, which is no mean feat. Seeing you and Brandon together again makes me long for Wikisurfer’s resurrection. Still waiting and praying for the day of its second coming!

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Thanks! Means a lot! I consider the Prime Directive essay the best, I think. But this one was just plain fun. And there are very big things moving behind the scenes for Wikisurfer. It has taken years, but we haven't given up on it and we are very close to sealing a heck of a deal, we hope, towards a RELAUNCH!

@hanque1

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise I think there is a case to be made for a modified Prime Directive, one that takes into account your concerns. In practice, they’re almost always breaking it which effectively does modify it. And that is a good thing! I think the PD was well-intentioned if not properly thought out. It was meant to respect and protect, not to harm or cast down.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Should we finally give Garak the same treatment as Kirk here? Or, someone more surprising?

@hanque1

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise Absolutely! He certainly deserves the same in-depth treatment as Kirk and Gul Dukat. Such a fascinating character who shows both stoicism and vulnerability. Many layers to explore with him.

This is one of the best Star Trek videos I’ve seen, great job, sir

@Bow-to-the-absurd

11 ай бұрын

Trekspertise have a history of great trek videos

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Wow, thanks!

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

We try our best =)

The universe shall never forget the name .... James T. Kirk .

Trekspertise! Great video as usual, although 'usual' is sadly only occasional.

I love the look of this video. The video and audio of the clips feel like they were recorded with a camera pointing at a TV. Something about the style of that felt...familiar? It took me back to sitting in the living room of the house I grew up in watching Star Trek on our old CRT console television with the blinds drawn in the middle of a summers day. Hurts the heart a little bit to be honest. Also really liked the credits. It was cool to hear you guys chat about what could have been if they'd polished the Nexus concept a little more. Also, Brandon mentioned a novel about this very subject. Any chance we could take a look at a draft? Pretty please?

Well done!!! 😘

Good point about the nexus echo. Shatner has yet to appear in any NuTrek unlike many others from TOS. While I think there may be a… behind the scenes reason for that…. It would still be nice to see him somehow have a part before he goes. A nexus echo could be perfect. Shoot, if Lower Decks did it you could have young & old Kirk in there with just a Shatner VO.

@MarkiusFox

11 ай бұрын

The behind the scenes reason is that Bill isn't exactly known for having a rosy and charming personality, though iirc, he was consulted for the first Kelvin timeline film to give pointers on how he played the character; Chris Pine did a pretty good job of hamming it up like Bill in that regard. Bill, George, and Walter are the only remaining TOS crew. While it would be nice to see, or rather, hear Bill as Jim Kirk again, I do not think it will be something that happens any time soon.

@Sk8rToon

11 ай бұрын

@@MarkiusFox Walter was on Picard as a grandkid (I think) as a voice over

@MarkiusFox

11 ай бұрын

@@Sk8rToon Yes, I know.

Oh man. I love both versions told of what Kirk's better Nexus should have been (back on the 'Constitution I' bridge with or without David Marcus, and sitting at a table with David.) Both should have been opinions got me a little bit. I love Generations as much as Kyle (Trekspertise) and I get the meaning of what Kirk said "Maybe it's not about that empty house, maybe it's about that empty chair. On the bridge of the Enterprise." But on reflection, it is a bit "ugh" with the unknown and faceless lady Antonia, whom should have been Carol, in a Nexus where Kirk stayed with Carol and baby David, that would have equally been a difficult choice for Kirk to leave that Nexus to help save the galaxy, one last time.

Love the aspect ratio!

What a fantastic video, but it seems a bit of a missed opportunity not to show the scene of Kirk yelling at Sybock about him needing his pain, given how closely that theme ties in to your video.

@Trekspertise

9 ай бұрын

A good point!

About the Nexus, I believe in the novelization it states that Jim Kirk did redo his entire 5 year mission over and iver and saves all the crew that died during that time, so when he brings the Enterprise home, he does so with his entire crew intact. What we see in the movie is just how he is trying to save his relationship with Antonia. Because something happens that makes her leave him. That's why he returns to Starfleet.

Very thoughtful piece! Love the work you do with this channel. Those ideas you have at the end are better than all of Picard Season 1... you guys should write for Paramount.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

We are ready to put pen to paper!

Its so good to see you guys back hope to see more exceptional trek videos like these!

Kirk is a lot more complex of a character than people give him credit for.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Absolutely.

good video, congrats

Re: Janice Lester, Captain Batel’s existence in Strange New Worlds would seem to contradict her claim that women couldn’t be starship captains in the 23rd century

The novelization of Generations does go into more depth regarding Kirk's time in the Nexus. Yeah, Antonia did come out of left field.

Picard wasn't a stranger to Kirk, he was the Captain of the Enterprise. That was all Kirk needed to know about him.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Great answer!

I think Kirk’s thirst for hand to hand combat by way of Kirk Fu found him in a never ending cage match with this buddy the Gorn on the rocky planet within the Nexus. KIRK DOUBLE FIST PUNCH!!!!

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Gorn fight forever!

1:15 I will say i certainly almost *_did not_* get it and you need to get outta that basement. There are DEFINITELY spiders down there.

I got here through OrangeRiver's recommendation. :)

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Booyah! Wait, which Orange River video?

@discobolos4227

9 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise Sorry for the late response. They advertised this specific video essay on their Community tab.

A few of my thoughts... 1) I rewatched "Undiscovered Country" lately (and I think it's my favorite Trek movie), and seeing how deeply Kirk sank into depression, bitterness, and ultimately full-fledged, genocidal racism is really poignant. Here's this character who is almost universally seen as a cocky, self-assured adventurer and he has become just an angry, bitter, old man. It really showed how devastating emotional toxicity, unresolved emotional trauma, and years of war can be on a person. 2) Yes, we only see Kirk at one point in his fantasy in the Nexus during "Generations," but that doesn't mean that he didn't have other visions. While tine has no meaning in the Nexus, the passage of time is at least something that it simulates, as Picard experiences time passing during his vision, albeit only for a few minutes. We can only understand reality with a dimension of time, so while you won't age in the Nexus, the possibility of experiencing time exists. This is a long way to go to say that there's every possibility that Kirk could have had multiple simulations in the Nexus, especially considering that we see him experiencing time out of order...when Picard first finds Kirk, he's making breakfast for Antonia and later on the horseback ride, he relives the first day he met her. There's every possibility that Kirk spent those 70+ years reliving all of the moments that everyone pointed out. 3) I will fully admit, here's where things get kind of hairbrained...in light of the recent retcons we've seen regarding Kirk's earlier life on Strange New Worlds, I would personally get a big kick out of it if somehow the writers find some way of making La'an Antonia. Both Kirk and La'an definitely have something special together, and at the time of their meeting in SNW, it wasn't feasible, as he and Carol seem to be trying to make a go of it. But I think it would really be special, at least for La'an's story, if years later they get a second chance together, even if it doesn't ultimately work out. I don't know how, but I just think that would be cool.

love visual metaphor

So much of his backstory was covered in that first season!

@STho205

11 ай бұрын

The 1st season was primarily the Kirk character arc. The hero's journey. Cobbled together from several freelance scripts who all had different ideas of what ST was. In production order. Kirk got command at 32. His first deep space exploration (leaving patrol duty) and his first test was to kill his oldest friend. Spock wanted to do it for him, but Kirk's empathy delayed it. Then Kirk had to go do it. Kirk then is exposed as a gambler and crafty Odyssius. Kirk is the ideal military commander, besting the Romulan equivalent. His exemplar career is listed in the trial. Kirk then admits that Nothing is MORE important than HIS SHIP. Kirk the revenge commander fights the Gorn and learns to see things from different perspectives as Spock advised. Kirk dwells on former romances, and decides career was worth it. Kirk then falls in love in a time where NO STARFLEET EXISTS. He again has the choice to leave it all for her or letting her die...again as Spock advised. Finally he not only lets her die....he GOT HER KILLED. He is why she died. He almost stopped her, but takes Spock's command. Full Circle. Now broken and distraught....he goes to save his brother but is too late. S2 was to be Spock's character arc. S3 would have been better if it was McCoy's character arc. He got two episodes...but that's it.

Interesting how both of the first two movies feature Kirk taking back command from someone who ends up dead. But they have very different reactions. Kirk: I'm taking your job, Will Decker: WTF, dude?!?!? Kirk: Spock. I.. Spock: Its cool, you can take over, no problem

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Sort of like Kirk got retconned between Star Trek 1 and Star Trek 2.

great video! Re Tarsus IV, it was in seeing the barbaric results of absolutism and doomerism that spurned Kirk on always seek an alternative, to never accept the suffering of others, or as the man put it "I don't believe in a no-win scenario." re the Janice Lester thing, a bit of hand wavium that i use to explain that "no women starship captains" thing is that Lester has become delusional (as the episode demonstrates) but that belong she went completely insane she had proclaimed misogyny was the reason for her lack of career advances and that Kirk, already having had the argument with her for many years, has just decided to go along with it to humor her. (insert the meme of Spock telling Kirk "I don't argue with stupid people, i just tell them they're right." Kirk: "But that's crazy!" Spock: "You're right.") I do agree that Generations script was rushed. that they wanted to 1) kill off Kirk and 2) blow up the Enterprise-D (which i was bitter about for 29 years until Picard season 3 handwaved away) why they didn't have Kirk on the Enterprise making a heroic last stand sacrifice? As for the re-writing the Nexus scene, i feel Chris's take of Kirk returning to his found family on the Enterprise as more likely what would happen. he chose them time and again in his life, not the "what might have been." but filming limitations would have prevented that. I can imagine the scene of just Picard looking into the window and seeing Kirk talking with the back of David's head, not hearing what they are saying, just seeing the happiness on Kirk's face. Really they could have just taken what the did int he film exactly the same and just the silhouetted woman on the horse was Carol. I am 100% down for a future SNW episode where Ethan Peck Spock meets Paul Wesley Kirk slathered in old age makeup and chopping wood in his white turtle neck red vest outfit. I'm thought about what SNW's final episode might be a flash forward to just prior to TWOK and a lot of these threads could be built off of (if SNW can re-introduce Sybok they can do this and make it work).

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Great discussion! Some good ideas in here.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Paul Wesley as old Kirk makes sense. But, we still have William Shatner... =)

I think that Kirk when is inside de Nexus is were he wants to be, with a woman. All of us know that Kirk had a lot of romances, so this romance with Antonia is one he regrets, so now is fixing it.

I like the idea of get the body of Kirk to the Nexus.😮😮😮😊

I will cry when Shatner dies

@dashfatbastard

11 ай бұрын

I didn't with Nimoy, or not as much as I'd have imagined. For me, however, Kirk was a surrogate father figure to a boy who badly needed one.

@LauraCordes

11 ай бұрын

So will I 😢. Let's just hope he continues to live long and prosper for many more years.

@pantherpopel551

10 ай бұрын

Yes. But also F him and his horse!

@joe9739

10 ай бұрын

Nobody is ready for that...

@dashfatbastard

10 ай бұрын

A big father figure me back in 1967...before him, it was John Astin as Gomez Adams.

I assumed in the theater that Myers and Bennett created Carol Marcus from the discussion with Gary, however David is too young for an academy romance with a 52yo couple. Also the flippant line "I almost married her" uttered in a 1960s show maked Jim the cad...since Carol got pregnant and he obviously ditched her an unwed undergrad student mother Most likely the series itself answered that with Doctor Wallace (Deadly Years) or Ruth (Shoreleave)....both of whom appear to be nothing but a deep former romance of ships that passed in the night. Doctor Wallace was also a biologist and a researcher. Marcus was probably a relationship after the USS Faragut incident, since the ship had to come home and be re-crewed. Losing 200 crew and the Captain in a vessel with 300+ total would likely be a year in port on Earth or a HQ starbase.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

All good points!

A hero

MY personal solution to Jim Kirk's "death" in "Generations" is that, he NEVER left the Nexus. He instead "created" another reality within it for himself in which he (so to speak) 'saves the world' one more time, "dying" in the process. But he is still within this "fantasy world"; In reality, he is still within the Nexus, and still alive. Thus the problem becomes, 'how do we permanently extract him from the Nexus?".

3:26 Erika Hernandez of the Columbia NX-02. Philippa Georgiou of the USS Shenzhou. Those happened either before or while Kirk was in Starfleet. So yes it was fixed nearly 20 years ago.

Its funny. I feel like Kirk has lead his life like Shatner.

..great show!...(hey, put a blue screen blue screen behind ya in your basement...)

The question of non-linear nature of time in the Nexus is an interesting one. Did Kirk experience subjective decades living in the countryside? Could he have been on his five-year mission? The Nexus is not a holodeck or a simulation - time and space don't exist in the conventional sense. This also explains the "echos" - from within the Nexus, everyone who is there has always been there, and will always be there. There is (ironically) no continuity between moments. You can leave, appearing again in reality, but from within the Nexus, you're still there. There's a lot they could do with the Nexus, and I'd love to see them tackle it again. In particular, I'd love to see Paul Wesley show up in a future Trek series as Kirk in the Nexus, living out that idealized, perhaps dreamlike, version of his life.

@brreitz

9 ай бұрын

Just realized, there's something of a line between the non-linear time of the Nexus and that of the Prophets in the Celestial Temple. Perhaps a similar kind of extra-dimensional zone?

For the cellar metaphor to work, it needs to be less clutered, more empty. 😀

Wait, so we’re just not gonna talk about how Kirk asked what God needs with a starship?

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Oh really? Did that happen?

@TomRyanMKE

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise 😂

That idea of placing Kirk back onto the bridge of the enterprise during the five year mission is an absolute stunner of an idea. Not only does it make a lot more sense narrative wise, it would be a hell of a lot more interesting than what we got narrative wise. . It could well swing the entire movie to a positive for me (my feelings are very strongly that all of the TNG movies absolutely shit and essentially unredeemable, so you can see what an impact that potential plotline would have) and it's a legitimate tragedy that the gentleman who came up with it was not in that writing room.

I think that the question of turnabout intruder and canon shift has been conclusively addressed in strange new worlds. Temporal Cold War agents have the history in flux so that the eugenics wars were delayed by decades, reshuffling certain events but because of people like La’an, not so radically distorted that the entire future changes.

@adamflux2

11 ай бұрын

We can simply assume therefor that any disagreements on such matters between episodes are the result of a temporal agent struggle leaving an imperfection on the timeline.

It's not canon, but in The Autobiography of James T. Kirk (written by David Goodman) Antonia is the polar opposite of Kirk: she's a woman with no interest in space exploration, has never even left earth, and has only a vague idea of who he is. I like that take on her as it suggests why Kirk liked her so much: she wasn't overawed by the great Starfleet captain (by this time, Kirk must have become something of a celebrity) and offered him a life away from the dramas and tragedies of space adventure, something which he'd never really experienced in his life before.

Head-canon: Janice Lester was passed over for promotion, and decided Starfleet was sexist. But there were indeed female starship captains in Starfleet by that point, as we see in Enterprise.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

is there a way to retcon Lester without using the "well, she's just crazy" trope applied to any ambitious woman?

Fascinating

You forgot that he was born in Iowa

I wonder if Kirk's experience on Nexus is similar to what the Talosian's offered Pike after his accident. A chance to live the life he wanted. Antonia could be Kirk's Idea of what a perfect woman / Companion is.

🖖

I'm not sure they ever really need to explicitly say "Lester was wrong, that's not canon" (or however else it would be Addressed) for that idea to Be Corrected. We've been shown women captains not just in the 2250s but also the 2150s. So clearly Starfleet allows women to be captains, and always has done, regardless of what she says during her breakdown. It's definitely a cringey episode, though, and not one I've seen in over a decade because I've got absolutely no reason to want to revisit it. Can't imagine any of the current writers want to revisit it either, though since SNW kind of brought Sybok back for a cameo maybe they will actually have Lester be some random scientist or lieutenant before getting kicked out. Maybe because of doing something reckless which endangers the ship. (Well, now I'm imagining her being like "It's because I'm a _woman,_ isn't it?!" to Number One firing her, with Una completely speechless before finally going "...sure, whatever you choose to believe".) I really enjoyed this though, I often think about how the events at Tarsus must've impacted Kirk's desire to Do Good and Help People and Save Others. Which must've influenced his decision to join Starfleet. Like... he's just got this major Tragic Backstory item in there which is hardly ever discussed!

I always took "Your world of starship captains doesn't allow women" to mean Jim Kirk's world of Starship captains. This would mean that he didn't see himself settling down or slowing his career to be a husband or do the "I'm on a ship you are somewhere else" marriage. Thus, we have two things at play, Janet Lester is unfit personally to be a captain...like Merrick from "Bread and Circuses." ...and, second, Jim doesn't want any woman to disrupt his commands. However, people seem to want to see Starfleet of that time as sexist...when, in prequels, it is shown to be otherwise.

Something interesting though, why does Guinan appear in two places. In the Nexus with Picard and back on the Enterprise. So who says Kirk isn't still there.

um strange new worlds has a woman captain. We ignore it and write as if it never existed. Also I would love to know where that line came from. Was it Roddenberry(I doubt DC Fontana) or was it an executive.

My mom was the perfect example of woopie goodsbuge Campbell in TNG

I always thought it silly that Kirk didn't "die" saving the B. Picard should have been able to save the day. Maybe the Nexus could have returned him in voyager or DS9.

3:45 What gender was the captain of Starfleet's second warp 5+ starship?

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Gender? I don't now. But she presented as a woman.

I've often said that just because Janice Lester said she couldn't be Captain because she was female doesn't mean it's the truth. It may be she was turned down because she was psychologically unstable.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Right. And the franchise has proven that by casting women as captains as early as Star Trek IV. But...and here is the crux of the matter, dismissing ambitious or upset women as "they are just crazy" has a long, sexist history in the real world. Is there a way that the franchise can retcon Janice Lester without leaning into sexist trope?

@RunNorthEnt

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise I agree with you and I guess unless they do a series that shows her early yrs and displays valid reasons why she was turned down the debate " arguing and ranting " from all sides will continue..... I have maintained for decades that just because a person in a series or a book says something doesn't automatically make it true.... I'm sure Janice herself believes what she is saying and that is likely how she rationalizes it to herself.... The biggest problem is the era it was written in giving Kirk such lines that demean her like her life could of been as full as any woman etc I'm sure in 50 yrs ppl looking at our current shows will be aghast at stuff they consider terrible that we don't notice.

Picard Season 3 his active biometric readings show in some stasis containment area. Starfleet grabbed his body. To what end...cloning in some crisis event. 23rd century tactical genius would be necessary for the preservation of Starfleet ?

There’s other ways to interpret the line about admitting women. It could be that Kirk’s career had no room for properly tending to a wife and family. And by extension, would be particularly preventative for any women who want to “have it all.” And she seems like the kind of person who wants it all. … or nothing.

ººWe create our own reality. "There are a million things in this life that you can have and there are a million things that you can't have." Captain James T. Kirk - Star date unknown.

So kirk wasnt a space pimp? Shocking.

THE THEME SONG OF THE ORIGINAL SERIES PROVES KIRK'S ACTIONS, TO SPREAD HIS GENES THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

👍🏼👍🏼😎☕️

Trek technically did recon what Lester said. Both Discovery and Strange New Worlds show women captains and an admiral in command of ships before and during the TOS era. So, Lester's words could just be taken as the thoughts of someone who isn't quite all there considering what she did. Its unfortunate that we never really got a canonical follow up to that story. Jim as a character was not the guy to treat anyone differently because of their race or gender, and if she was good at her job, Jim would've went to bat for her like he'd done every other time someone showed bigotry in front of him.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

That is, of course, absolutely true. We started seeing women as captains as early as Star Trek IV. But, I think the problems lies in how Janice is dismissed by the franchise. She is just crazy, right? Well, that charge has a long, sexist history in real life, applied to any woman who was ambitious or upset about something. It would be nice if Trek could retcon Janice Lester in a way that leans away from that real world sexist history.

@krazzeeaj

10 ай бұрын

@@Trekspertise I don't think she's just crazy, which is why we really need a follow up. I think she probably has a traumatic background like Jim's, if not worse than his. The problem is that early trek handled the trauma of it's officers by not really handling it. Even TNG, which had a whole department responsible for mental health, never leaned into that quite as much or as well as they could've. Unfortunately, I do think that any attempt to recon Lester will go pretty much the way Discovery's characters are treated when it comes to their trauma. We see them have real and emotional reactions and they're (especially the women) are called crybabies because of it. The fandom is still pretty sexist.

A fan fiction over on Orion Press depicts Janice Lester as having been sexually abused, explaining her distorted view of Starfleet, men, and the world.

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Oh really? Would love to take a look at that. You have a link to share?

Not that bridge Mcfly

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

what?

I really don’t get your basement visual metaphor lol

@Trekspertise

10 ай бұрын

Neither do we.

Other than the reasonable argument that others have made about Janice Lester's comment being misconstrued, though I do think that Kirk and Spock have a conversation about how women can't be captains at the end of the episode. Your comment about the franchise not fixing that in cannon, do you not watch any of the newer Trek? Philippa Georgiou in Disco or Captain Batel in SNW. The franchise has decided very clearly to ignore that idea and have placed women in command of star ships. Unless you want them to have a character to specifically say Lester was wrong in an episode?

@Trekspertise

11 ай бұрын

Of course they have lady captains later on. But that does not fix it. Why does Starfleet have a rule banning women from being starships captains in the 23rd century? If that rule doesn't exist, then why is the franchise treating Janice Lester like she is crazy just because she is a woman? Its a pickle.

@AltraWave7

11 ай бұрын

@Trekspertise Fair points, two things however. Georgiou and Batel are Captains the the 23rd century, they where Captains before Kirk. Second, I think this is one of those situations where we need to realize that the politics of the time in the 1960's probably has more to do with it than any in cannon reasons, it's not something that may ever get an explicit in universe explanation and may be one of the examples of "that never happened/is now not a thing" that older franchises have to deal with. Also I did really enjoy the video and I liked the re imaginings of the nexus in Generations.