The exchange ending at 1:35:00 summarizes why this isn’t a debate. WK says that he believes whatever is in the KJV is the correct reading because it’s there, and no evidence or arguments of any kind are important. WK repeats the same handful of arguments for each point: 1) some other translations agree with the KJV, 2) accuse the other party of lacking “a perfect text”, 3) posit without evidence that the KJV is a perfect text. This really is the definition of a circular argument and why people try to debate this mess, I don’t understand

@Alec_Cox

Күн бұрын

Simonides wrote the Codex Sinaiticus in the mid 1800s and Konstantin Von Tischendorf was the one who found it in the trash. Sinaiticus, where Westcott and Hort get involved with the "New" translations of the Bible, where Newer isn't better. The KJV stands on top of the translations and those that read the NIV, AS, ESV, etc. Are not even close to what is revealed on the KJV, Which is still not copywritten. Why is it not copywritten? So, that it stays as a free reading and quoted translation, unlike the newer, more uneducated versions.

@christianuniversalist

Күн бұрын

@Alec_Cox **Simonides wrote the Codex Sinaiticus in the mid 1800s** Absolute BS statement right there.

@Counterpoint_Apologetics

Күн бұрын

Its lazy, trust me Bro because its been around and I think it is xxxxx.

@333Paradigm333

Күн бұрын

I think you have summarised this very well, Will is suffering from circular reasoning and confirmation bias. I am KJV preferred but, I value comparing the other translations for cross references as they have shed a lot of light on some of the more cryptic passages of the KJV. God bless

@sometheology7330

Күн бұрын

And when there is a clear contradiction in the KJV from following a scribal error, such as 2 Chronicles 22:2 or Judges 14:15, or a clear error in the publishing process, such as Deuteronomy 21:22, or clearly theologically problematic verses, such as Genesis 22:1 or 1st Chronicles 29:20, or clearly outdated vocabulary, such as Matthew 20:2 or John 14:2, or any other problem, the KJVO will never challenge their presuppositions but will invent new and creative solutions, all of which would be foreign and bizarre to the original authors. To be completely honest, I find the whole position to have traces of implicit white supremacy by saying that God only preserved his word for an English speaking audience. Are we more worthy of an infallible translation than the Chinese? Why did God not bless any other major language group with an equally infallible Bible? There is no popular Spanish version that agrees with the KJV on every verse (including RVG and 1602P). I guess, while we get the easiest access to the clear and infallible scripture, everyone else will have to settle for "good enough."

Great debate. Thanks.

@BigStack-vg6ku

Күн бұрын

Agreed

Wikipedia? Lol. Wikipedia is not a good source at all, neither is Quora or Reddit. That is bad scholarship.

@Chris-qg8ss

Күн бұрын

Agree. But there are exceptions to that rule. It all depends on which citations Wikipedia uses. At least it provides references, which we can then check out further for ourselves in more details. Plus. Always read the critics of those sources too. Both sides.

@JamesSnapp

Күн бұрын

The proof is in the pudding. If you think the Wikipedia article on atbash is flawed, suggest a better one. Simply dismissing it because of the name Wikipedia is stupid.

@Chris-qg8ss

18 сағат бұрын

Exacty Sir. I didnt hear all of your speech clearly. But you made a lot if sense @JamesSnapp

No disrespect to James at all. But like.. But why would anyone care to debate with Will Kinney on this? He doesn’t contain the education to debate this topic. He’s a frequent contributor to Ad Hominem fallacies, Hasty Generalizations, Red Herring, Straw man, Circular, No true Scotsman, and my favorite: False Dichotomy. I stopped talking with Will when he stopped responding to my questions of his understanding of debating this topic at all. He can’t define what the Word of God even is. He doesn’t know. Make him define what the Word of God is, and his argument falls apart. Frankly, he’s a poor representative of KJVO. Give me Thomas Ross, all day, every day. A much more worthy opponent. Will Kinney should not be given a platform. A high school speech and debate student would end a conversation with him in about 10 minutes. Will relies on name calling and insulting people on public platforms to gain traction. See his comments on Mark Ward, for example. Personal attacks, CONSTANTLY.

On topic 1, Genesis 2:13. Snapp makes a lot of his argument about the position of the Gihon River. We don't have preflood maps, does he not believe in the worldwide Flood. Also, borders of countries change, and names of places and rivers change. I believe it is of note, that in Ethiopia, they believe the Gihon River mentioned in Gen2:13 is the Abay River (Blue Nile)... He acted like his Gihon River argument had the answer, but his answer just raises more questions

@JamesSnapp

Күн бұрын

Ryan, Moses wrote Genesis 2 expecting that it would be coherent to his readers. He describes the Euphrates River and the Tigris River which were where the learned in Egypt would recognize (because trade routes). The land of Havilah existed (2:11) and Moses described it as a land that was known in his own time. Satellite imaging located the Pishon (see the map). So the only difficulties are consequences of the belief in a global flood (which, as I said in the debate, is not my belief).

@BigStack-vg6ku

Күн бұрын

@@JamesSnapp very true from what I understand!

@ryancook1608

Күн бұрын

@JamesSnapp Thanks for the response! If you dont believe the Bible when it says there was a worldwide flood, yet claim to be an expert about the bible, what else does the bible say that you dont believe? Maybe I mistook you for a bible believing Christian, idk your beliefs. But I know the map you showed was not from 1300 BC, was not a satellite image, and I know that borders change, names of places and rivers change, and that the Ethiopians, among others, believe Gihon River in the bible to be the Blue Nile. Also, do you believe Moses and others knew where Eden, Nod, and the city of Enoch was too?

@ryancook1608

Күн бұрын

@SFT just wondering what I did wrong and why my comment was deleted so I can fix it

@ryancook1608

Күн бұрын

​@@JamesSnapp Why dont you believe the flood was worldwide?

Ethiopia / Cush. "Date" and "date" are the same word in English. Doesn't mean they always have the same meaning. You have the fruit and you have the romantic date. You have many different places that share the same name. Even King James bible says Moses wife was a Midianite if you carry on reading. Ethiopia is a mistranslation. It is one of two Cushes.

@Alec_Cox

Күн бұрын

Midianite is in Saudi Arabia, which was part of Abraham's descendants through his 3rd wife Keturah, Midian, son of Abraham.

@Chris-qg8ss

Күн бұрын

​Correct. If I remember correctly. Thanks ​@@Alec_Cox

The KJV is a useful, time honored translation. But it is errant, as all translations are. The texts from which it is translated contain transmission errors and corruptions. The Masoretic text is hardly a “pure” Hebrew version. There is evidence that the Masoretes corrupted the text in a number of instances due to their cultural and religious biases. E.g., in Judges 18:30, the Masoretic text says that Jonathan the son of Gershon, the son of Manasseh instituted an idolatrous priesthood. The correct reading is “Jonathan the son of Gershon, the son of Moses.” It was Moses’s grandson!The Masoretes changed the text so as to clear Moses and his children from idolatry. That is just one example. Proof of textual corruption is that Samaritan Pentateuch agrees more with the LXX than it does with the Masoretic text. The NT writers always quoted the LXX. The Masoretes destroyed the older Hebrew manuscripts of the Tanakh once they felt they had arrived at a “pure” restoration of the Hebrew. The truth behind the Masoretic text is whitewashed by seminaries and Bible colleges to support this fallible standard from which we get our English translations.

@igregmart

Күн бұрын

So, you do not believe, as the Bible clearly teaches, that God will preserve his word for all generations. In fact you do not believe any bible contains the perfect word of God. You are still searching. How sad. "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6-7 KJV)

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Күн бұрын

@@igregmart Absolutely, God has preserved His word! “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬ The Gospel has been faithfully preached for 2,000 years. What Bible version do you think they used before the KJV? Most Christians didn’t even have bibles in the early centuries. The Bible is a product of the Reformation and Gutenberg’s printing press.

@Chris-qg8ss

18 сағат бұрын

​@@pheelanmcphalen6390True about the KJV. But not having Bibles did not mean not having ACCESS to a Bible. Bibles were shared before everyone had their own one. Shared in the Synagogues, then churches and libraries. People still use libraries today and not because they are illiterate.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

13 сағат бұрын

@@Chris-qg8ss The scriptures were certainly always available. But until the 4th century, there was not total agreement on the content of the NT canon. Also, for many centuries the majority of laypersons couldn’t read or write. And the scriptures were transmitted in the Latin tongue. The idea that the KJV is the inerrant word of God is simply an unsustainable argument. It would mean that the church wasn’t given God’s word for 1,600+ years after the ascension. It’s a version, just like all other translations. The only versions anyone can claim to be inerrant are the original autographs, which the KJV translators didn’t have. They had errant copies.

If James Snapp Jr has the original text in front of him then why is he producing his own Greek text? He doesn't have the originals. He is lying. James doesn't understand quite a bit on the issue and when asked where specifically he thinks all God's pure words are today, he cannot answer. If he has the original text in front of him why can't he answer that question?

@JamesSnapp

9 сағат бұрын

Like the KJV translators, I am content not to insist on 100% perfection of the Greek texts that I use and which serve as the base-text for translations I read. In the specific points discussed in the debate, I have an English text that is demonstrably better than the English text that Will has in the KJV, simply by virtue of corresponding to the original text and not to manmade interpolations and manmade omissions.

James Snapp is very belligerent in his approach, in super layman’s terms he is majority text and is a detester of the NA28 and UBS text. He loves to accuse James White of being unscholarly because he prefers the Alexandrian texts. Will Kinney has honorable beliefs but he is KJV only inspired, and people will never win with that

@JamesSnapp

9 сағат бұрын

I ascribe to the equitable eclectic text-critical approach, and insist (as I have for years) that the Majority/Byzantine text is flawed at multiple points. James R. White is unscholarly and also somewhat cowardly; unlike my opponent in this debate, James R White refuses to face me in a cordial debate.

@anthonytylernecerato4289

8 сағат бұрын

@@JamesSnapp if you watch the livestream of Steven Boyce and James white, “Has the TR been perfectly preserved” he offered to debate you in that video and states no animosity towards you. And I know what equitable eclecticism but I’m not sure many people do that’s why I said super layman‘s terms. You cited the world English Bible many times in this debate, which is based on the majority of the Byzantine, and I asked you on Facebook if you prefer the Robertson and Pierpont text. You replied by saying it’s better than the NA 28 text etc. I would personally like to debate you on LGBT inclusion in the Christian church, but I have friends in high places that said you were incredibly anti. I have emailed Donnie on this topic twice, but he hasn’t replied either. but please take a note of what I actually said no man-made constructed Greek text is perfect. Isn’t that why you were having the entire debate?

I will stick with the KJV

One Bible , one God and no need to change either. KJV ONLY 💪❣️

@hiddenonfathersmountain

Күн бұрын

Young's Literal Translation... The Interlinear Bible... The Oxford New English Bible... Knox English Vulgate...

@djcraigg69

Күн бұрын

ESV

@veritas2145

Күн бұрын

I own several translations. While I do like the KJV… I think the NASB is superior.

@hudsontd7778

Күн бұрын

NASV is Trash, the KJB is the preserved words of God

@sometheology7330

Күн бұрын

One God, 7000+ languages, and only one language he cares about, apparently.