The reason I like Lanfear's character premise so much is that she wants true self-determination. She wants to overthrow the gods; she wants men and women to be equal and channel from a common power source; and she's ambitious and capable and wants big things for herself. She doesn't get much recognition by society but still manages through smarts and hard work to get a job at a prestigious university and work on important research. It's a shame that she is so often reduced to the "crazy ex-girlfriend" trope or dismissed as a narcissist; she is a much more interesting character than that. In another timeline she probably could've become the best of the best. And Delusions of Graendal makes a great point about Lanfear's plausible self-confidence struggles, which, together with Matt's interpretation of Lanfear being shown a golden road to a better life through her relationship with Lews Therin only to have it taken away from her by their incompatibility, suggests that she's not a bad egg so much as a broken egg. I would have liked to see her arc take a very different direction in WoT. Oh well! That's the price we pay for enjoying other people's work!

LOVE this. My quick thoughts: Moghedien: pathetic. Graendal: GOAT. Lanfear: needs better goals. Graendal is arguably the most complex character in the entire series. I don't think it's an accident that Graendals' pets resemble Rand's vision of a world completely untouched by the Dark One. Her pets are purged of their free will, but what is left within is without any darkness whatsoever. Her pets are friendly, kind, adoring, sweet, innocent. In some ways, they epitomize Graendal's idealistic vision for humanity, a humanity without greed, revenge, cruelty, etc. Like Adam and Eve before the Tree of Knowledge Of Good And Evil. In the final analysis, I think humanity broke Graendal's heart. She so wanted them to prove to her that they were more than just apes fighting over watering holes and wildebeest carcasses. They didn't. She got tired of being the only one bothering to have such values, she got tired of trying to see the best in people who perpetually reveled in their worst tendencies. And yet, in the midst of all the evil of the Forsaken, in spite of her overt apparent sexuality, there is still something arguably maternal about Graendal. None of the other Forsaken show any care for other people at all, and yet Graendal has a palace full of people upon whom she has performed a horrific violation, and yet in her twisted way, she seems to actually care about them after a fashion. In her strange value system, Graendal has removed something offensive from the person, and left only the good in them behind. She's 'improved' them. Not to be a person with free will, but to be a creature that exists in a state of near-constant bliss. It's twisted, it's horrible, but in a bizarre way, there is a caring element to it. Her pets don't suffer for her pleasure as anyone who falls into the clutches of a Semirhage or a Balthamel would. Graendal's pets would be the first to tell you how happy they are, and they wouldn't be lying. Yes, there are layers upon layers of reasons Graendal uses her pets the way she does, but it's striking that her implementation of her Compulsion has such a soft, gentle aspect to it. I also think of all the Forsaken, Graendal respects Balthamel the least. In some ways, her persona is the obvious companion of Balthamel, the other apparent hedonist. But where Graendal creates an adoring thrall, Balthamel (and Rahvin) revel more in the cruelty of their appetites. There is no overt cruelty affect to Graendal's approach, and I think that's significant. I think that's why she sets Aran'gar up to be killed by Rand's trick at Natrin's Barrow, I think Graendal was always looking for an opportunity to gank Aran'gar/Balthamel. It's also interesting that Graendal placed herself among the very worst of humanity, and systematically undermined her fellow Forsaken time and again. In another Turning of the Wheel, Graendal might have been a great hero for the Light. She surely seemed to be on Team Evil for complex reasons that we can actually sympathize with in some ways.

Starts at 03:55 CORRECTIONS & CLARIFICATIONS Thanks to A76noname! I had a bit too much fun suggesting alternative theories about Lanfear's relationship with Lews, and threw out some recollections without citations, rewriting some of 2nd Age history as it was recorded. -Innkeeper 1. Lanfear not among the first to pledge themselves to the Shadow, and not one of the last. 2. The dissolution of the relationship between Lews Therin and Mierin was disconnected from the future relationship he had with Ilyena, from what we are told. 3. We don't know what office Lews held during the time in which he was dating Lanfear.

@Mido-128

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Matt, where does it say that Lanfear was the first defector to the Shadow? I don't remember seeing that before. I know Ishamael was one of the first to publicly declare for the Shadow and Graendal was the second to travel to Shayol Ghul. From what I remember, RJ said that Lanfear was ripe to join the Shadow before she helped to drill the Bore.

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

As for point 3, I don't think a lot of time elapses from the drilling of the Bore, and the moment that Lanfear and the others are sealed at Shayol Ghul by Lews Therin. I think it's maybe a decade? If Mierin is still a two-name Aes Sedai at the point that the Bore is drilled, she can't be all that old by Aes Sedai standards, and Lews Therin having achieved the highest position can't be all that young. That implies that the period of their interaction was not one in which the two enjoyed equal status, or anything close to it.

@TheBabylane2

3 жыл бұрын

@@Siansonea We dont know that he had that position at the time of their relationship.

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheBabylane2 we do know that he was a senior Aes Sedai to Mierin. Lews Therin had time to marry Ilyena, and have multiple children after his affair with Mierin, and all of that happened before the War of Power, and thus before Mierin and Beidomon drilled the Bore into the Dark One's prison. Mierin was still a two-namer at that point, and Lews Therin Telamon was the Tamyrlin. That disparity in position couldn't have resulted if the two had been on equal footing during their affair. Not unless Lews Therin deliberately sabotaged Mierin's progress in the ranks of Aes Sedai...which, I wouldn't put it past him to be that petty and vindictive.

@shauntempley9757

2 жыл бұрын

@@Siansonea Except that Rand had a memory of them being in a relationship while learning. Which, according to the books, is typically 10 to 50 years long. LTT was a senior Aes Sedai long after he finished his training, while Mierin finished her training and went to research in the Collam Daan. I do not believe they were together once they started their careers. The only direct contact that we know about for sure after they finished training was Lanfear disrupting the wedding. In many ways, Lanfear shows the use of psychological manipulation to achieve her goals of power, while LTT shows the flaws a naïve man has, before learning of them, since they were both students. His memories proves that position. It boils down to the fact that both of them were immature people that had no idea what life could hold. The difference is, that Lanfear never grew up from that time, like LTT did. Her abuse of Perrin much, much later, is a case in point, and is proof that it is Lanfear that is the vindictive one, since it is a response to Rand's final rejection of her.

Lanfear reminds me of the sort of spoiled high school girl who had everything. She was likely much stronger than her parents from a pretty young age, and never really failed at anything before Lews Therin dumped her. She could typically just crush any obstacles in her way with enough saidar or manipulations, so she never really developed other methods of handling things. It's also part of why she was so fixated on Lews Therin: as the strongest woman, it would only make sense to be with the strongest man. Most of the AoL's greatest works were done by combining saidin and saidar, so a two-person circle of Mierin and Lews Therin would have been strong enough to truly cap off that age as an Age of Legends.

Great show. I have to agree with the verdict. Graendal just has more layers to her. Lanfear is the most beautiful, most powerful and the smartest. Moghedian is the most cunning, sly and the survivalist. Graendal is just on a different level in my opinion. Here is my reasoning. Most of the Foresaken were pretty transparent as to what they would be expected to do. Especially Lanfear and Mog. With Graendal, you just had no idea what she was all about, and I love that in a character. I think/hope that she will be that in the upcoming adaptation.

For me, I see the whole Lanfear past in a different light. RJ had a whole underlining theme of reversal of roles, and Lanfear and Lews past relationship seems a reflection of that. Generally, especially in the 80s/90s, it was much more common for the rich, powerful man to take an eye candy and use her to help him progress in power, then drop her when she was no longer useful. It was a trope often used in tv dramas especially back then. And while yes, Lews was powerful and supposedly handsome, Lanfear was definitely the one using him as a stepping stone. He was handsome, powerful, and the perfect arm candy to help her go forward. Their relationship always seemed like a reversal of what those rich powerful men were doing. It was discussed as if Lews was the one doing so, but from what we have been told it seems more to me that SHE was the Harvey in the relationship. And that he left before she achieved that position of power she wanted him for lends weight to her obsession with him. It always felt like to me RJ wasn't trying to write a tale of a vengeful ex-girlfriend (which is a tired troupe honestly), but wanted to show that women can crave power, and use people for that power just as much as men. And that they can spiral into obsession for a main character as well, which was another often used troupe in media back then. His writing often showed that neither sex is good, nor evil, but that the individuals can be either.

Content at 03:55

Nice discussion . I like all of the Forsaken as each had their own personalities and brought something unique to the party. What stood out to me regarding Lanfear is while you knew she was smart, I do not recall many instances of it in the books as she seemed ruled by her emotions more than anything else.

I am just imagining Moghedien selling sub-prime mortgages to low-income households and causing the financial crisis.

Great episode! So interesting even after all this time, thanks for all your hard work 😊 By the way- in Ireland we pronounce Shannon EXACTLY the same way you pronounce it there in the typical American fashion! It's the name of our most important river going back to the dawn of time in Ireland!

After looking at Rand's discussion with Lanfear in Chapter 12 of A Memory of Light...I think there is enough there to suggest that Lews Therin hated and scorned Mierin, believing she had used him. It doesn't say that this affected how he treated Mierin, and whether this affected her standing in the world, but it does provide space for that theory.

@margusgrenzmann3977

3 жыл бұрын

The feeling that I got from the relationship with Lanfear was that LTT could not deal with a partnership with an ambitious partner or imagine a situation where they could collaborate for more together and instead continued to bear all the responsibility and prestige gained himself. Thus ending up with Ilyena who better fit a more traditional passive housewife mold (this latter based mainly on the feel I got from the prologue). Edit: In summary LTT could not deal with a powercouple relationship and got out to find a next relationship where the partner was a family person and keeper of the house. (Inferred again from th efirst prologue where Ilyena is described as being super hospitable.

@delusionsofgraendal

3 жыл бұрын

@@margusgrenzmann3977 SO interesting! I am loving this perspective on Lewsie and Lannie Bananie. I may be a Lanfear convert, yet!

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

@@margusgrenzmann3977 my theory is that Lews Therin wanted Ilyena because Demandred wanted her, and was therefore a prize to be won.

@shauntempley9757

3 жыл бұрын

@@Siansonea I would say, that was Demandred's motive, more than Lews Therin's. It is fairly clear that his hatred of Lews Therin helped him to become a Forsaken. It is very in line with Luthor's hatred of Superman, and the fact that Luthor sees Superman as a rival for his cities adulation. This applies to Demandred, but to a much greater extent, in that he and Lews Therin are pretty much rivals in many places through their lives. The pattern would have wanted a woman that could stabilise him emotionally and mentally to mantle the Dragon. You saw his behaviour with Ishamael in the prologue. He was more the man that Ilyena helped to evolve, as the pattern wanted, a more rounded man. The type of man that could lead the Light and defend the world from the Dark One. Lanfear was a woman that clearly pushed him to become someone he did not want to be, that was more career focused, like she was. That relationship could easily have lead to Lews Therin becoming a Forsaken. As it was, Lanfear's presence in Lews Therin's past emotionally and mentally may easily have played into his failure, due to the fact that it brought more of his cruelty to the surface, which some personalities do. The fact that the Dark One's taint lead to Lews Therin killing his family shows that fate was not out of left field, and is a consequence of how a person can change from a kind person to a cruel one, just from his or her choices. Especially in this world.

Moghedien is actually a believable villain to me

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

I can agree with that.

Moghedien is my absolute favorite forsaken, outlasting his more powerful peers.

One more comment ... LTT and Lanfear dated at a time before he was the Supreme leader. Their relationship happened years before the drilling of the Bore and he didn’t really become too dog until the War of Power. And what makes folks believe that Lanfear wasn’t already in these circles? She’s clearly gifted in every way with the exception of being able to contribute to society in a way meaningful enough to earn a third name ... there is really no reason to believe that she was somehow victimized by LTT. I also don’t think LTT has a ton of culpability for Lanfear’s later actions, when they dated they lived in a society where violence and evil were rare anomalies so even if he did see something dark in her the concept of where that would lead is completely alien until after the bore and the subsequent Collapse

One thing I can't seem to find a timeline for is exactly WHEN Lanfear and Lews Therin were an item. Obviously it was before the Bore was drilled, but was he already in a position of power at the time of their relationship or was he younger? "A Wheel of Time Wiki" says "When they were both young learners of the One Power, she was Lews Therin Telamon's lover," but gives no attribution to that. So was he already wearing the ring of Tamerlyn, or was he still on his rise at the time... and for that matter, did he even have his third name? I can't recall Lanfear ever actually USING that name.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, this is definitely an area I played loose and fast with trying to discuss a different view of their relationship dynamics. From what I recall, we don't know all of the offices he held and exactly when, and we don't know how long they were an item.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

The Companion says their relationship ended long before drilling the Bore, and that they dated for a time. Considering Lews Therin was approximately 400 when he died, and the Bore was about the time he was in his late 200s, is long before like 10-20 years, 50 years? I'd assume he was in his 200s. His power and influence would likely have been great by this time. But with such long lives, it's kind of hard to judge when a career stretches hundreds of years. I would say that Lews believing she was using him as a path to power, that he had significant power already.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

I think it was early on in their careers. I think there is a quote somewhere about them meeting when they were training as Aes Sedai?

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

@@daraussedai2163 I'd like to find the training quote. That would be quite the enduring craziness on Lanfear's part.

One thing I felt interesting with regards to Lanfear possibly being groomed is that how she then proceeded to groom Rand. She perhaps wanted to redo her relationship with LTT with Rand. How 'lucky' she was that the Dragon was reborn! Or, perhaps part of her motivation to become 'immortal' was to wait for her next chance to be a power couple with a Dragon, knowing that part of him would be LTT. Along the same lines, Moghedien knew heroes were reborn and resided in the world of dreams in the meantime. It would be interesting if the shadow ever sought out these heroes there to corrupt to their uses.

@jayrobinson5952

3 жыл бұрын

I also wonder what Lanfear's ideal world have looked like had Rand joined her side, used the pair of Sa'angreals and removed the Dark One. Would a society exist in this new age? Would it be closer to what the Lord Ruler in Mistborn created or more similar to when she met Rand in a mirror world? Or, would it be closer to the Crystal Throne?

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

I think whoever Mierin was in that relationship with Lews, was consumed by the hate and naked ambition that drove her to become Lanfear after drilling the Bore. As far as her motivations later, Jordan was quoted as saying when talking about Rand after reawakening in the third age, "She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love-not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted-wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator." I wouldn't be surprised if Lanfear eventually came to that belief, perhaps it was one of the reasons the promises the Dark One made to her. About Moghedien and the Shadow and the Heroes, that makes sense. Considering what Moghedien did to Birgitte, it sounds like it was something she learned on purpose.

@jayrobinson5952

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDustyWheel Thank you for the perspective! I always believed that Lanfear wanted the Dragon to share power with her and desired to rise above the Dark One, instead of being below him. I figured she was type to make her own rules and not really follow anyone, similar to Darth Vader with his pitch to Luke to rule the galaxy as father and son. I guess I ignored Lanfear's subservience the DO until she became Cyndane. I should have imagined that she would have had multiple visits to Shayol Gul, just like the other Forsaken. Cheers!

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

@@jayrobinson5952 I do think she wanted to use Rand to get herself outside the grip of the Dark One, if that would be possible. But I definitely believe as Jordan said, she was playing a lot of angles, and setting herself above the Forsaken, including Ishamael was one of those. More power, at any cost. Brandon was paraphrased as saying, "He stated straight out that Lanfear had additional plans in motion that can be figured out based on A Memory of Light that none of the fandom has found yet (or at least not posted). He was asked for specifics and gave a RAFO, then specified he meant that in terms of re-reading A Memory of Light." That seems in line with all we know.

@jayrobinson5952

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDustyWheel Thank you! I always found it fascinating to actually see Lanfear eeking out her plans out in the world, meeting most of EF 5. The plans were a mystery and contrasted Ishamael, who at the time, seemed to operate mostly in the world of dreams. I hope that the TV show gives us more of the Forsaken so that we can be more invested in them. One of the reasons the Mandelorian is popular is of course the child but also because Moff Gideon is a fairly fleshed out, intimidating but also mysterious character. I want that with Ishmael at the beginning and also with Lanfear, Demandred and whatever versions we see of the Forsaken on screen. Thanks for the quick replies! Have enjoyed many hours of your show so far. Good luck!

do you guys do public talk/debate styled talks....hardcore WOT fan as like the others who found you. Love this series...its held a special place in my heart since day one. Plus...GO LANFEAR, GO VERIN my two favorites lol

Great discussion and guests! Graendal and Moggy have always been my favourite female Forsaken, so I was really impressed Matt, that you helped me to consider Lanfear as more than just a crazy ex-girlfriend. I now hope that the TV adaptation shows more of this nuance. Just one thing though, are we sure that Lews Therin was already the head of the Aes Sedai when he started a relationship with Mierin? I always thought it happened when they were both younger and Lews Therin was a promising up-and-coming star. I've no doubt that he was ambitious himself and had an eye for the ladies. Not sure if I completely buy your interpretation, but it makes things interesting!

@drrohanjacob

10 ай бұрын

Well, the TV version has made Lanfear the greatest champion of the light😂😂

Sorry but I'm gonna reject the grooming theory whole stop personally. Lanfear is NOT some sweat innocent girl who never had any agency. First you have no idea how old Merin was when she dated Lews, and Lanfear's story is all about her having a choice and she always chose power.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

Completely valid. It’s a bit of an out there Theory. Certainly, the timing can’t be proved from the data I’ve found. And the world of Aes Sedai aging makes what is more common in our world...less clear in such cases. But the story does provide some space for my theory to have life, that this relationship and it’s dissolution likely had political consequences to how far she rose in the society at the time. And that her reaction to that may have amplified her reactions. Rand with Lews memories, does suggest that he loathed and felt scorn for Mierin after coming to the belief that she was only using him for access to power. And it’s clear that Mierin resented Lews for that decision, and loathed Ilyena. And that she came to love power above all things during that time. Mierin went full sociopath. She’s responsible for that greed for power and what she was willing to do to get it. But I like to think relationships and the outcomes from an mental and emotional standpoint are much more complex than the little we’ve been told, illuminates. Thanks for the comment!

@rd6416

3 жыл бұрын

Jonathan R. I agree totally. The grooming idea is completely off base. There is no evidence at all that Lews Therin loved power more than Lanfear. I think Dusty wheel is making excuses for Lanfear that she does not deserve.

Wouldn't lanfear have been like a century old when she was with Lews? How do you groom a hundred year old? Lews dated the most beautiful and most powerful woman alive, but dumped her cause he realized she was a physcopath.. how do yall translate that into its Lews fault she was bad?

Hearing all the praise coming from Delusion of Graendal toward her favorite Forsaken feels to me like a serious case of Compulsion. Just sayin'.

At the end of the day the spider was the last one standing out of the forsaken. So maybe she should be higher on the lists

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

That's fair...though, the person that hides is from time to time bound to be the last one standing.

@bluefov705

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDustyWheel in another way her strategy seemed to work best that's why she was last alive, so she should be the first chosen. However her ego got her in the end.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

@@bluefov705 She was definitely smart and capable, and I think you are right that her ego destroyed her in the end. She could have had a huge impact on the 4th Age...and maybe will some day.

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

Is standing in an a'dam really considered standing?

@bluefov705

3 жыл бұрын

@@Siansonea before it went around her neck, who was the last forsaken living?

I just listened to this discussion again today and it gave me a thought about Lanfear in re-thinking her character. I remember Tom the Gleeman musing that Taverens attract to them things that they need before they know they need them, when he was observing Tuon and Matt's relationship. Plus the notion that very little in a Taveren's life is chance. Therefore was Lews Theron's and Lanfear's love relationship mere chance or was it dictated by the Pattern. Was it meant to be? Were they drawn together prior to the bore being drilled because Lews Theron's Taveren nature was drawing to him something he needed before he knew he would need it? Was Lanfear (Mieren) meant to be with Lews Theron when the bore was drilled because she would be crucial to the optimum resolution to this problem? Would he have figured out the correct way to seal the bore without the tainting of saidin if they had been working on it together? Is her obsession with Lews Therin/Rand NOT the crazy girlfriend trope, but the pull of a Teveren on a person who is essential to their mission the way Rand had such a strong pull on Matt and Perrin? Maybe Lanfear mistook the Taveren pull on her for love? Maybe Lews Therin's attraction to her was the pattern pulling them together for a specific purpose and neither of them realized what was happening. Any chance of this being corrected and Lews Therin getting back with Mierin ended when he married Ilyena. Could this be why things went so wrong that the breaking of the world happened, Lews went mad and killed Ilyena and his children with her because the relationship with Ilyena was never meant to happen nor were the children meant to be born of this ill-fated union? Do you remember when Tom's young girlfriend was murdered after he refused to help Rand after they met up again after Rand thought he was dead in Chairien? Tom was meant to be part of this whole effort to defeat the shadow. He refused his role and the reason for his refusal, the young girl he loved, was then murdered as a result of strange circumstances that revolved around Rand and the game of houses he was involved in against his will. When Matt showed up later and asked him to rejoin the Team, this time he agreed readily. He played a key role in many situations, but especially in the rescue of Moraine. I think Lews Therin (unwittingly) was able to thwart the pattern when he left Lanfear and he and the world suffered the consequences. Neither of them understood that they were brought together for a specific purpose. In the end, in another age, she fulfilled her destiny by helping Rand/Lews Therin defeat the shadow.

Nice discussion

Most brilliant researchers even today don't have much renown. I think it might be fair to say that she is a top researcher in her field if she was working in something that seems as important as what was described

I hope they do a teaser promo of the next season with them showing off the 13 Forsaken one by one over epic/creepy music similar to the 2022 Batman trailer score or 2018 Suspiria trailer score.

I apparently have a self-destructive streak, where I'll rush into a life-threatening situation and totally blank out after. I've had this happen two times, the first was too personal to share, but I had a moment where I came upon three men who were beating on one and I just blindly attacked, not with my fists, because apparently even subconcious me is smarter than that, but with chokeholds trying to subdue one at a time. By the time I took one out and jumped on the second, other spectators woke up and held the third one so the one on the ground could escape. This was nearly ten years ago now, and I have never had a recollection myself, I just heard it afterwards. The first time it happened I thought people were exaggerating because there were just a few people present and I thought they were being kind to a tiny 14-year-old who had at least tried. So on a rational level I can see how Moghedien is smart to avoid risk, but my sense of injustice is just too strong for my rational mind to compete. Did not mean to make this comment so long, I guess I should have remained in therapy a bit longer if I still need to process this 😅

Graendal's compulsion trick in tarmon gaidin qas clever, but didnt demonstrate she had the tactical genius of a great captain. The compulsion was likely simple. Like: Make mistakes that will cause defeat but will likely be overlooked. She doesn't have to understand the tactics as long as the person she compelled does..

1:10:30 "Go ahead Graendal" lol

I find it interesting that a concensual relationship between Lanfear and Lewis is labeled "grooming" while the compulsion Graendal used in All her relationships passed as fine!!

I get that the 'grooming' comment was not meant to suggest LTT was picking up underage girls but even then I don't think its a fair reflection of the situation. I seem to recall a scene where Rand had a LTT memory of Lanfear in his (LTT's) arms "both of them young and just discovering what they could do with the power". That to me implies that they met up when they were both possibly at the start of their training possibly in the AOL equivalent of 3rd age university. That is a far cry away from the suggestion that LTT being the older and more politically powerful figure picked a young innocent out of obscurity, showed her the corridors of power and then kicked her back out when it suited him. I accept that LTT would have been a person of significant before being named as leader of the light after the bore was drilled but unless the notes say differently I don't see how he was able to have anything like a Weinstein effect and stop Lanfear getting her third name. LTT was clearly a man who could be arrogant and had a knack for ticking people off but for all that I got the impression that at his core he was a decent man. Did he seek out power? Yes otherwise never have put himself in the running to be named Leader of the Light. one might say President Lincon sought power as well. Was that a bad thing. As one of the guests commented the difference between LTT and Lanfear may have been what they wanted that power for. Certainly he fought for the Light to the very end, something a lot more impressive considering that he had an open job offer as No 1 for the Dark One who was winning. As for the suggestion that he might not have been as smart as Lanfear, he held the forces of the light together for 10 years of awful war. I don't know who much of Rand is like LTT but we know that Rand figured out how to outsmart Graendal who he acknowledge was smarter than him. Brilliant discussion. I hope we have others on the other Forssaken.

@delusionsofgraendal

3 жыл бұрын

The discussion around Lanfear lead to far more speculation than I think any of us were intending 😂 It’s definitely a lot more fun to try and uncover Lanfear’s nuance than painting her with the broad brush of “crazy ex girlfriend”. And re: Rand outsmarting Graendal. He didn’t though - even though he went balefire happy on Natrin’s Barrow, Graendal herself escaped, and Rand was the one who had no idea he’d just been duped 🐐

@dominicbrennan1882

3 жыл бұрын

@@delusionsofgraendal Graendal did get away and lived to fight another day but I would still contend that Rand outfoxed her. He caught her by surprise, she only realised the mortal peril she was in at the last moment and escaping cost her not only another forsaken which she probably viewed as no great loss other than having to report to Dark One HR department about the death, her pets which would be annoying but hardly fatal and a lot of her recovered ter'angreal etc. It was by no means a knock out blow but I would argue that while she survived by the skin of her teeth she was still outwitted and put on the back foot, at least until Moridin dragged her out of her hidey hole. Of course by escaping while appearing dead she did at the same time outfox Rand as well :)

Landfear was trying to get the biggest piece on the board to turn and was in your face while everyone else was in the back ground

Please make an episode on Lanfear.

I don't like to use this word a lot, but I really feel like our Innkeeper here is such massive simp for Lanfear that it's clouding his judgement. The entire bit about "grooming" has, as far as I remember, no basis for it in the books at all and instead sounds exactly what someone who's simply trying to shift the blame would come up with. Everything we can read about their romance makes it seem like Lews thought it was a normal relationship, but eventually realized that Mierin didn't love him in the first place and just picked him for his status and got obsessed when she was denied something she felt she "deserved". He sounds almost hurt when he recalls that, frustrated because they had gone over this same discussion countless times in the past. Why would it be his fault to end a relationship that was never actually reciprocal? Later he meets Ilyena and falls in love with her and they have a perfectly fine relationship, because Ilyena actually loved him. I also can't see where you get the idea that Lews somehow was the reason Mierin got her status in the first place, as if he "invited" her to the high social circles and then forever blocked her off from them after dumping her. Several others of the forsaken didn't have third names either and Mierin was perfectly capable of succeeding on her own, she simply saw Lews as a potential stepping stone, the highest of them all, that could gain her highest status she could get. It was always about the power with her, not the person. I also feel like the assessment of Lews's character is affected by this same baseless preconceived notion of him being this "man in power who leads women on and then discards them". Lews had his character flaws, I'm not disputing that, but from everything we can read they were more about him being thoughtless and not realizing what is going on with the people around him, the exact opposite of him manipulating anyone. He laments the possibility that had he behaved differently and showed more care for his friends, some of the forsaken might not have turned to the Shadow. Lews was definitely too gifted and successful for his own good, to the point where he probably had trouble noticing when others were struggling around him because everything was always so effortless to him. Oh, and I also don't know where you got the idea that she was the last one to turn to the shadow, because on the contrary she was the *first* Aes Sedai who pledged to the shadow right in the Hall of Servants.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

Totally fair about Lanfear critique! I like having fun with the Lanfear/Lews story, and I often get loose with pushing the boundaries of that discussion because it’s fun. But the last to the Shadow...should have gone for the citation there, and not bet on my recollection there. Damn. My bad. I have toh.

@A76noname

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDustyWheel I hope I didn't come off too confrontational lol, I really like her character too.

@kev4366

3 жыл бұрын

while it is well known Matt is a big Lanfear fan, it is also worth recognising that this was a debate and he was intentionally taking a position to elevate Lanfear's status amongst the Chosen

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

​@@A76noname No, your comment was great! I just added a corrections comment because of it. Honestly, I like to play too much with the Lanfear story; I have a hard time not just having fun throwing out my crazy ideas trying to push the boundaries on that story line. But, I hate making declarative statements, that are not obviously just me sharing an opinion or stirring the pot. So, now I'm annoyed that I threw out a few things off the cuff. Haha.

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

​@@kev4366 ...this does sound like me. Rewriting 2nd Age history a bit to elevate the status of one Mierin...Lol.

I don't read grooming in the Lanfear and Lewis Therin relationship. Mostly because of the extreme ages of trained aes sedai who even in the third take normally 10 to 50 years.

God almighty, I will never understand why anyone would want to live forever.

Lews Therin and Lanfear is probably the most toxic relationship in the books. Lews Therin Telamon was a high-status person, perhaps the highest status person in the world. Lanfear is a junior researcher who shows promise. Lews Therin has a sexual relationship with Mierin, then dumps her and marries Ilyena Therin Moerelle, an Aes Sedai about whom we know only two things: She was blonde, and she earned the third name of the Aes Sedai. Lews Therin cries about Ilyena all the time, but we never learn anything important about Ilyena beyond her hair color. That tells you who Lews Therin is. He used Mierin, then cast her aside. If Lanfear had been more motivated by making Lews Therin pay for the way he used her, I'd be more on board with Lanfear. But it really feels like she never could let go of her fantasy of being loved by Lews Therin, loved by a man whose only thought about a woman is her hair color. Also, how old is Lanfear? She's a junior researcher, but very strong in the Power, which makes me think she's just at the beginning of her career and relatively young. Then the Bore is drilled, the War of Power ensues, and then Lews Therin seals the Bore with Lanfear inside. That's a span of, what, a decade? So is Lanfear even in her 40s at the point that she was sealed into the Bore? How old was Lews Therin?

@samanthaa.6055

3 жыл бұрын

LT was likely a couple hundred years old at that time. Lanfear, according to LT (who is totally biased, but probably not totally wrong at this point) was probably using HIM. "You loved power!" as Rand shouts at her. Whereas Ilyena, it's implied, loved Lews Therin for himself.

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

@@samanthaa.6055 considering he was the one in a position of power, and considering the type of behavior we see from Lews Therin/Rand in the story, it's no surprise that Lews Therin would play the victim here. Mierin Eronaile was very junior to Lews Therin in age, influence, achievement, and prestige. We don't know the precise details of these parameters, but we know that there is a marked disparity between the two in these regards. Whatever other factors come into play, Lews Therin can't play the victim or disparage Mierin for 'using' him, when he was clearly only interested in a sexual liaison and was the person in a position of power in the first place. Did he imagine Mierin just wanted a bit of a cuddle from him? Did he imagine she had no ambition of her own? Considering how obtuse Lews Therin/Rand is, it's likely he was this delusional about Mierin, and got butthurt when he realized she actually wanted something from him besides the Dragon D. As for Ilyena, we know absolutely nothing meaningful about her, the only information we have is from Lews Therin himself, and other than the fact that she's blonde, we don't know much. We do know she had the third name before marrying Lews Therin, though. So it's possible and indeed probable given Rand al'Thor's later behavior that Lews Therin sought to enhance his own status by marrying another high-status Aes Sedai, Ilyena. We see echoes of this in Rand al'Thor's "relationship" with Elayne Trakand. Each is an ambitious, high-status person, and each uses the other to enhance their own position and prestige. Whereas Mierin would be more comparable to Min, a woman with very little in the way of status who attaches herself to a high-status man. It's also possible that Lews Therin only wanted Ilyena because Demandred also wanted her, because I can easily imagine Lews Therin being that petty. I would love it if the show gives us a glimpse of Ilyena through Demandred's eyes, and shows her as this dynamic, complex individual who is basically manipulated by Lews Therin, as it seems most people in his immediate orbit were.

@falseprophet1024

2 жыл бұрын

@@Siansonea They dated when "they were first learning what they could do with the power" (i believe thats the quote) Thats like saying they dated in college. Was LTT leader of the world when he was still a student?

C’mon Matt, once again the man is being blamed 😂

What's the "third name" thing? It sounds like there's significance to how people get their "third name", but I don't even know what that means. I'm not finding references to it anywhere else.

What happened to Semirhage??

Everyone else sees Moghedien as a joke, while I’m over here like- “…I can fix her, guys.”

Any reason you left Semirage off the list?

Ultimately Langear is the only one responsible for her actions

I agree that Moghedian is one of the most believable villains in the WOT. Like Verin, you know she is a real person. She is so outraged by Nyneave, she stalks her. Nyneave is the opposite of Moghedian. I once dumped some horse tack out of a canvas bag while living in South Florida and 3 scorpions scurried away so fast, I barely saw them. One was pretty big and could have hurt me badly. I always think of that when thinking of Moghedian. She is an INTROVERT, not a coward. She doesn’t care for the dramatic flair of a lion. But she would ask you to carry her across a rive and then sting you in the neck 1000 times and shrug when you die. But she only do that if she was close to the opposite shore and would survive. Lanfear would kill you out of rage without thinking it would kill her too. That is why Moraine gets to her. Moghedian is more logical.

@christianrapper

2 жыл бұрын

Lanfear only kills out of necessity. She isn’t some psychopath. If I was in that world I would trust lanfear more than Mogjedian.

@IAmTheHound

Жыл бұрын

@@christianrapper she skinned Kadere alive when he informed her Rand had slept with Aviendha.

Semirage?

Wow, u managed to pinpoint the 3 that will be in the show

I vote for Moghedian because I think she carries the most common human evil. Jealousy. Fear. Only someone with a clear imagination for what can happen can feel that fear. The others are more arrogant and more rare.

Lanfere is Regina George with powers 😭🙄

Lanfear is by far best of all Forsaken with Ishamael but i think she is forsaken only in name she is only alive and free of all forsaken that sad a lot of her

Lanfear is a hottie

I’m just going to go on record that no one would care about Lanfear if she wasn’t hot ... her entire character is wrapped up in being the most beautiful possible woman 🤷‍♂️

@TheDustyWheel

3 жыл бұрын

She was the most powerful for a woman in the OP, and mixed with her beauty and intelligence, that should have been a combination that would lead to a lot of success in the 2nd Age. In fact, if they had found another source of power, instead of the Dark One, her path to that power and influence may have been set. It seems her desire for the power she might have expected, that greed, ends up being one of the defining factors of her failures.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDustyWheel but what if she was ugly? No one seems to care that Semirhage equaled her in Strength and far surpassed her in skill and achievement in their Age. Lanfear’s most defining characteristic is her beauty, at least in terms of what makes her stand out.

I think Lanfear and Ishamael are not evil

First.

Lews acted like Roman Polanski with Mira Farrow on Rosemary’s baby. He used her and groomed her and went for the corrupted innocence thing. Think about that. …and then Mia got the bad rep for being ambitious and outspoken. Polanski ended up getting caught but still escaped much consequence. Mia got hooked by another predator. I agree. Lews Therin gets off the hook too much. But Lanfear IS the crazy girlfriend trope.

Lews Therin shares NO responsibility for Lanfear. Lews Therin shares no responsibility for insanely killing all his bloodline. Lews Therin shares no responsibility for being a person of influence and responsibility at the research facility that drilled the bore. Lews Therin shares no responsibility for causing the taint of the male half of the source. I have had a crazy ex-gf. After I broke up with her, I wanted to get back with her a week later, and she was crazy again so a week after that when she put on a fancy dress and asked me out on a date and asked to get back with me, I said I "No, I don't trust you," and she said "Well, I am pregnant." Then a month later that was false. She wasn't pregnant, but I went back to her for sex a couple times, and I asked her for money and after I paid her back, she asked me for money, and then she stopped talking to me and I have no idea why. Was it because she was with someone(s) else? To not have to pay me back? Because the sex was bad? Lews Therin may have asked his ex for sex, or may have never talked to her again. She may have been invited to the wedding before she crashed it or may just have showed up asking if she could enter. She seems to agree that he broke up with her. He is self-reflective enough to consider her words that he loved power. Later in the series he admits that he was arrogant, maybe even selfish. We know that he loved his wife. Did he cheat on her? We know that the female Aes Sedai chose not to support him. My guess is that The Inkeeper is both right and wrong. Lews Therin wasn't the top of Lanfear's field. Since when does Lanfear like publicly influential men? Rand and Perrin are examples of that right? Real politicians those Two Rivers lads, espicially when she meets them stranded in the desert during The Great Hunt. If Lews Therin only loved power, why did Lanfear have to tell him that in that quote from The Shadow Rising? Do people from The Age of Legends often forget how much they were obsessed with power and prestiege or are they all self-engrossed brats? Lews Therin didn't groom Lanfear, because he didn't groom his wife. He wanted what all powerful men want, a beautiful woman. He wasn't at the top of Lanfear's field, because when he asked the Aes Sedai to come, the female Aes Sedai told him TO A WOMAN to fuck off. Perhaps they did that because they knew he was a predatory monster and they didn't like him, or perhaps they did it because they were selfish assholes. We can't know the crazy ins and outs of a relationship from another age and 3000 years ago. Even Cesar and Cleopatra are a thousand years less distant to us than that. We can say that we have no evidence of Lews Therin having bad judgement or being controlling or abusing women or abusing his position of power. We can say that with all the scrutiny put on the relationship of Lanfear and Lews Therin that we would expect slightly greater chances to learn about their relationship than anyone elses from 3 millennia ago. Lanfear herself, doesn't mention other women. Lanfear seems to believe that Lews Therin believes himself to be righteous. History is written by the victor, but Lews Therin wrote no history and didn't win, did he? That's why I think it's likely as boring as it seems. Lews Therin was attracted to Lanfear and then broke up with her for petty, personal reasons and then married another woman whom he had several children with and invited his one ex-gf to the wedding and then had political problems with women at his top research facility as a result of the scandal to the point where no female colleagues who could channel, (his ex-gf, now become Forsaken, the most powerful of all female channelers, and just recently a top researcher at that facility), would go with him. Lanfear was on the research team that created the bore. Her influence to poison perception of Lews Therin was felt even after she turned to the Dark One. It seems in this reading that Lanfear ruined Lews Therin's entire life, indirectly ensuring that he would go insane which ultimately led to him murdering his entire bloodline. Maybe Lews Therin was just always a poor dumb innocent sap, and that's why when Lanfear accuses him of loving power, a part of him believes her, because he never knew any better. He always wanted to forgive Lanfear, right up until the end. It was Lanfear that never wanted forgiveness, Lanfear that never wanted goodness if she had to have it without Lews Therin. Jealousy doesn't come from not having. It comes from not wanting. Lanfear didn't just have goodness, she had greatness. Beauty: the best. Power: the most powerful woman. Intelligence: best research facility in the world. The problem was she didn't want goodness if she couldn't have what else she wanted, too, and that what else was always power, and no amount of power can be had that can make up for not wanting Lews Therin, and he knew it. He must have loved her after the break up, because she was still available to be at the wedding. She wasn't fired or transferred. She still had a communication path with him 3000 years later. But she was only willing to be good and only willing to love a person if her conditions of power were met, otherwise she didn't want what was good. Lews Therin knew it. Rand knew it. Lanfear knew it, too. She knew it about herself so much she screamed "You loved power" at Lews Therin to try and convince him that he was just like her. He considers her words, but loving power is not the same as only loving power. Very different actually, and Rand is an even better evolution than Lews Therin. He doesn't even love power, whereas Lanfear still only loves it and will continue to only love power for another 3000 years since goodness can never give her what she seeks just like Lews Therin could never either.

Just. Just no. You had me in the beginning. Started to lose my in the middle. And then you said _grooming_ . Which takes away Lanfear's agency AND takes away psychotc women. I've had a psychotic woman, and yes she ended an age. Sorry they broke up, but stop.

These Forsakens are responsible for murdering millions of people and we get the Jersey Shore or Real Lives of Hollywood Wives analysis of their characters... lol

Seriously these are not role models. People in WOT literally scare their kids with Lanfears name.

What I don't get is how anyone in their right mind can see these women as any kind of positive role model. They pledged of their own free will to serve the Dark one, and were so good at being evil devil worshipers (read atrocities committed in the name of an evil god outside the pattern of reality) that they were named chosen and given the highest status in the evil hirearchy. Nothing can excuse that. I don't care if they're intelligent, strong, complex, tragic, beautiful, or anything else. They pledged their souls to evil and rose through the evil ranks, knowing exactly what they were doing. ~~you might not want to say Graendal is a feminist Icon. It says a lot about feminism if an unrestrained hedonist, manipulator, and war criminal willing to completely backstab her allies, and a great practitioner of using magic mind control to make people into zombies represents that movement. Its a really bad look.~~

Whoever complained about the word grooming, grow-up. Everyone who read the books, knows what they meant. Stop your one direction focus, as if everything is interpreted the way you think it is..

Moghedian is my favorite villain in the books.. she is the smartest of the Forsaken and the fact is that (SPOILER) she is alive at the end of the books. Captured and collared, sure. But the only Forsaken left in the world. Possibly still immortal, probably still able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod

What!? Dude your take on Lanfear is so wrong. There is NO EVIDENCE that Lews Therin led Lanfear on. Zero evidence that research into the Bore makes her the most important researchers at the time. Zero evidence that Lews Therin groomed Lanfear. There is zero evidence that Lews Therin deliberately went after powerful women either. Lews Therin may have been arrogant, but the rest is a totally unsupported in the text. Also Lews Therin is remembered with a similar level of hate and fear as the Dark One himself. Lanfear isn't insecure! Lanfear is the epitome of Hubris; Selfishness and Jealousy. Power mad, somes up Lanfear. SHE THOUGHT SHE COULD SUPPLANT THE GREAT LORD! LOL

Funny how the discussion of Lanfear managed to be both misandrist and misogynist at the same time. Crazy ex boyfriends do exist and lots of stories resolve around men obsessing over a higher status woman. And no, being dumped is not a license for evil if you're a woman. You managed to be sexist in both directions there.

The Forsaken were so disappointing. They were basically useless IMO.

Holy crap I cannot handle the amount of simping for Lanfear, Matt!!! She was a full grown ass woman and one of the most powerful Aes Sedai in the world!!! Even if Lews Theron was a complete POS and lead her on and cheated on her directly with Illyena and left her that does not excuse her terrible decisions!! She joined the DO of her own volition and even then she was still so petty and jealous she could not get out of her own way to stop sabotaging the Forsaken's ultimate mission in stopping Rand! Over and over again she could have finished him and been done, victorious for the DO but she could not get over herself!!! Holy cow not a single bit of that argument holds water to me in any fashion...yikes bro, yikes!!

Lanfear=Trump