"The .50 lacked stopping power." That's a sentence I never thought I would hear.

@halo-7797

Жыл бұрын

remember we’re talking planes 😂

@kralicidoupe385

Жыл бұрын

When compared to two 23mm cannons and one 37mm cannon, the 50. cals kinda do lack firepower

@radoslawbiernacki

Жыл бұрын

Yes, a lot of US guys are not aware that 30mm is double the size of 05 call. Not mentioning that Mig-15 has HE rounds which literally make one meter sized holes on impact.

@foxfox8665

Жыл бұрын

Single word: Minengeschoß

@radoslawbiernacki

Жыл бұрын

@@foxfox8665 Exactly

As one pilot said after flying a MiG-15 whose pilot defected: "It was built by tractor mechanics to be maintained by tractor mechanics." It was meant as a compliment to one tough but simple little jet.

@ZC.Andrew

Жыл бұрын

As I understand, this describes Soviet airplanes in general: simple and rugged.

@ok-gs5ly

Жыл бұрын

​@@ZC.AndrewBut you do hear that the simpler the better in engineering and they never said anything about ruggedness too.

@_wayward_494

Жыл бұрын

​@@ZC.Andrew which airplanes exactly? Most soviet jets were either paper tigers or notoriously unreliable lmfao. You are a victim of propaganda

@alalalus7692

Жыл бұрын

​@@ZC.Andrew with low maintenance life and hunger for simple but lots of spare detail

@donlarocque5157

Жыл бұрын

There's the shell of a Mig on the freeway going to Dallas.

The MiG-15 is one of my favorite aircraft, it just looks so damn good.

@gabeplay8179

Жыл бұрын

I have been inside of a mig 15 at an airshow and it isn’t really that bad

@Nick38807

Жыл бұрын

@mekss7844playing it in war thunder is a pain in the ass in first person lol. must have been annoying for actual pilots

@gabeplay8179

Жыл бұрын

@Mekss I was 10 years old and I was 5 6

@gabeplay8179

Жыл бұрын

@Mekssnow I am 15 at 6 foot

@willdenoble1898

Жыл бұрын

@@gabeplay8179 I was 6’0” at 10 years old.

That's why the RAAF wanted more from the licence built CAC-27 Sabre. Twin 30mm Aden cannon and the Rolls Royce Avon engine with 25% more thrust

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

A hot rod of a Sabre, but thoroughly out classed when it entered service.

@BryanJohnson4891

Жыл бұрын

Ironically the MIG-15 used a copy of the RR Avon (I think it was that one)

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

@@BryanJohnson4891 it was the RR Nene. The Nene was a centrifugal flow engine and the Avon was RR’s first axial flow engine. The USSR acquired the Nene because the British government wanted the improved relations with them and authorised RR to export the Nene. Later it was discovered the Soviets had copied it and built the VK-1 without licence. RR demanded £207 million in licence fees, unsurprisingly they didn’t receive it. The VK-1 from the MiG-15 was actually a bit bigger and an improvement on the Nene, just like the RR Tay that was licence built as the J-48.

@rob5944

Жыл бұрын

​@@thelandofnod123 seems unbelievable now.

@richardmoore609

Жыл бұрын

​@@thelandofnod123 yeah, and then the Russians said thanks for the tech and ghosted them.

My dad flew the F86. It was his favorite fighter. He said it was the perfect blend of a WW2 fighter and a jet.

@czoom51

3 ай бұрын

May we know more about your father? What years he flew, where he was based? Always fascinated. Every little story like the anecdote you mentioned is precious to hear.

@itsraining6449

Ай бұрын

My Dad was a Canadian F86 pilot stationed in Zweibrücken, Germany. I think mid 50's to late 50's. He always knew he wanted to be a pilot. He had his private pilots license the day he turned 16. On his 75th birthday one of his flying buddies came to the house to celebrate. He said "You have no idea how good of a pilot your dad was, because he will never say that to anyone. He was just THAT good". RIP Major Cliff Zacharias - we miss your smile and your wicked repartee.

My grandfather was an F-86 mechanic during the Korean War. He loved his job and talked about it a lot.

@czoom51

3 ай бұрын

Could you elaborate further on his thoughts, anything at all? So fascinated to hear from first hand accounts.

Then they put 4 20mm’s in 😈

@sirbachelorboredmen1314

Жыл бұрын

ME 262: "Wanna add 10 digits more in that number?"

@jakobc.2558

Жыл бұрын

​@@sirbachelorboredmen1314you mean 200.000.000.000mm? Okey but for real, the 30mm MK108 was not that good. It literally had half the velocity of .50 cals (500m/s compared to 800-1000m/s on .50s depending on the bullet). For hitting bombers it was okey but good luck hitting a manovering single engine fighter with those potato launchers.

@ango9012

Жыл бұрын

After seeing what the raaf did with there sabres

@Luna-qt9hq

Жыл бұрын

@@jakobc.2558 it was designed to be able to take out bombers and be fast enough to get away before the fighters could do anything, but tons of me-262 pilots tried to dogfight and got destroyed by mustangs

@jakobc.2558

Жыл бұрын

@@Luna-qt9hq it's not just "tons of ME 262 pilots tried to dogfight". A prop fighter can absolutely catch a jet if they play their cards right and once a allied fighter is on the tail of a 262 it's over. For one, all 1944-45 allied prop fighters had a much higher top speed in a dive then the ME 262s level flight top speed. So with an altitute advantage (which the allied fighters would have when escorting bombers up high), it is very possible to catch a 262 in a propeller aircraft. And once the prop is on the 262s tail it is over, because the 262 will have to manover to avoid getting shot, at which point it is trapped because prop fighters have better low speed energy retention and exceleration so if the 262 tries to fight, it dies, and if it tries to run away again, it dies because something like a P-51D-30 can outexcelerate a 262 up to like 500km/h. Early jets were just not that good. Keep in mind, the U.S. airforce did not adopt the P-59 Airacomet into front line service because the propeller fighters they had in 1944 were simply better in every way except for level flight top speed.

6× 20mm cannons on the F86 would given it some serious fire power, instead of those 50cal pop guns!!😊

@planemod8399

Жыл бұрын

50 cal is very strong, you don't even know how large these bullets are. Just imagine a mig getting shot at with .50 BMG bullets 💀

The .50 lacked stopping power Surprising

@pouletbidule9831

Жыл бұрын

When you compare it to a 23mm or hell a 37mm put on the migs, it... actually does.

@CS-zn6pp

Жыл бұрын

It's all relative...

@recoilrob324

Жыл бұрын

The incendiary ammo (Blue Tip) they were using was not effective because it blew up on the outer armor. They switched to the API Silver Tip which penetrates one surface then ignites on the second one and is much better at lighting up fuel tanks. The 50's main advantage is high muzzle velocity which makes hitting at range much easier than when lobbing cannon shells. The Sabre mounting them in the fuselage meant that convergence was not a problem...more effective.

@lucasgomez3283

Жыл бұрын

.50 is only good against lightly armored targets, trucks and prop planes and what not. 50 cal could never stand up to anything with a bit more than 2cm of steel

@pingping-e2286

Жыл бұрын

Originally, they thought of 20mm, but they chose it because the development of 20mm of Browning was slow. Some models are fitted with 20mm.

My father, ret USAF Capt William Gregor flew the F-86 during the Korean War, he said it saved his live when he was shot down. He just passed away February 1st at 97.

@mikailvito7200

Жыл бұрын

I'm glad he was able to survive, first gen ejection seats werent as good as today but its better than jumping out

Try it with those 4 M24A1 20mm cannons and an after burning engine!! Oh and don’t forget the upgrade to an all weather interceptor instead of just day time operations!! God I loved the Saberdog 🥰

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

Or the Fury.

@Gausdave213

Жыл бұрын

Kinda obsolete when it came out though

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

@@Gausdave213 very obsolete is closer to the truth.

@williewilson2250

Жыл бұрын

The f100

@Legion-xq8eo

Жыл бұрын

@@Gausdave213 the saber was obsolete when it came out? Thought it set all kinds of speed records at the time if I’m not mistaken!!

I believe the MiG had a centrifugal flow engine - which was able to better function when damaged than the axial flow engine on the F-86.

@mikeycraig8970

Жыл бұрын

Of course it was better. It was a copy of a Rolls Royce Nene engine. Without it would of been a pile if crap. Thanks to the idiotic Labour government of the time (too date, there's never been a great labour government) selling licenses to the Soviets on the stipulation the Soviets use them on civilian airliners. The Soviets were laughing at the British government the whole time.

@jacobdewey2053

Жыл бұрын

Centrifugal flow compressor engines suck ass. They're much larger (radially) than an axial compressor with the same compression ratio. They're good for helicopters (where the radial size is less of a limitation compared to the height) and that's essentially it. There's a reason no modern jet uses a centrifugal compressor. As for the damage point, I don't know if they are able to function better when damaged but I could see them being less susceptible to damage given they tend to be shorter axially and with the layout of the compressor, I could see it being harder to damage it

@Plainview200

Жыл бұрын

@@jacobdewey2053 Yep, axial designs as a class had more growth in them. But the axial's blades are more delicate than the relatively robust one piece axial compressor. And of course, back then, the MiGs were slinging cannon shells instead of bullets - which put even more of a hurt on the Sabre's more delicate engine.

@Leeeeegion

Жыл бұрын

@@jacobdewey2053 yes they do, but in the 50’s the best engines in the world were British, and they sold their best centrifugal flow engine to the soviets. It took awhile for axial flow engines to really show their dominance. They were definitely more damage resistant though, and could resist some pretty significant shrapnel getting into the internals. Forgot where I saw it but I saw a video on those centrifugals and they’re tanks.

The sight is a major help

The iconic/mighty F-86 Saber!! Worthy foe of, and nightmare of many a Mig pilot

Meanwhile the Mig15 with its DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA canons. One hit of those 37 mils and its over

@F4Wildcat

Жыл бұрын

but you have 40 rounds. On a round that travels 670 m/s, with rudenmentary gun sights. You actually need to hit your target

"Unlike the Mig-15, the F-86 was armed for dogfighting." "The Mig-15 was a well-armored durable aircraft." Sounds like it was fit for dogfighting to me. 🤨

@richardmoore609

Жыл бұрын

The mig was made to quickly intercept American bombers and limited fighting against their escort aircraft. That's why it is armed with a 37mm and two 23mms.

@the-lag-gamerita5446

Жыл бұрын

being well armor is the kind of thing you don't want in a dogfight. it makes the plane slower, it's acceleration slower, worst climbrate, harms energy retention and manuverability in general. so no, it was not fit for dogfighting, it was supposed to be' a bomber hunter.

@czoom51

3 ай бұрын

Armed referring to the gun sight, which was the definitive advantage between the two comparable jets. And then there was the skill gap that widened the advantage for American fighter pilots.

The F-2 variant that was introduced later in the war had 20mm T-160 auto revolver cannons. It was built in response to the USAF wanting to up spec the firepower of the sabres. The guns caused at least one fatal compressor stall as the gas from the guns caused the engines to be starved of O2 when being fired. Temporary fix was to fire one set of guns at a time and was later permanently fixed. I am not sure if any F-2 or F-3 sabres survived as they were low production but they were way more devastating to migs.

A repeat scenario of the British .303 during the battle of Britain, although the similarity ends there as I believe they basically went straight to 20mm Hispanos later on. I did read somewhere that the Americans had trouble mass producing those cannons to the required standard, which is why they stuck with heavy machine guns.

I've read Korean pilots' interviews where they said the .50 calibers were only truly effective when used at very close range.

The .50 caliber did not lack stopping power but it lacks the exploding shell/bullet similar to the 20mm which can create more damage than simply piercing through the plane. The armor piercing bullets of the .50 machine gun simply punches through the fuselage and do little damage unless it hits the engine, fuel tanks or some other vital parts of the plane, or the pilot.

My great grandfather was a f86f airframe maintenance man for the RCAF during korea and the veitnam era. He had medals for peacekeeping and other things (a distant part of the family got them after he passed, which was extremely disappointing). He brought a love of aircraft into my life and to this day the only aircraft i run in DCS is the sabre in his memory. I have read every manual i can get my hands on. He even helped restore the f-86 out front of the marina in my home town for display (in the golden hawks livery). I still miss him to this day.

50cal wasn't the best choice for an air-to-air projectile at jet aircraft speeds - that's why they needed 6 guns. unless it goes right up the tailpipe lotsa 50 cal bullets would just skim off the sides of the fuselage- hitting the skins at an angle. US later upgraded to cannon.

Thank you for your service!

So what did they do? Upgrade to 20mm cannon?

@AirZoo

Жыл бұрын

yes

@jeromeymascarenhas6044

Жыл бұрын

Freedom cones

@Chinese969

Жыл бұрын

​@@AirZoo no

@Chinese969

Жыл бұрын

​@@jeromeymascarenhas6044 lol

@Brogurto

Жыл бұрын

@@Chinese969 yes, yes they did

The F-86 was a beautiful aircraft.

It's great to see a young person into history. Thank you.

Everyone talks about them sticking 4x20mm cannons in it, nobody talks about the twin-30s the Aussies had in theirs!

I imagine that left the Sabres pretty rattled. . .

Mig 15 was initially designed to hunt b29 and its cannons were actually hard af to aim because the trajectory of the cannons were different but that wasn’t a problem when hunting large bombers. F86 was not a bomber hunter but played the role of p51 more. Even though 50 cals lacked the stopping power the aim can make up for it like George Davis who was called on burst Davis being able to down bombers fairly easily with his aim

"The migs weren't designed for dog fighting,the saber was" Ok...but what about the infamous mig valley during the korean war?

@gorganfredman5363

Жыл бұрын

MiG were build for patrol and interception, fast attack and getaway

@jacobdewey2053

Жыл бұрын

The MiG-15 was designed as a bomber interceptor, not an air superiority fighter (hence the armament it possessed)

What a beautiful plane

When buying surplus jets many years later, the fuselage was made of titanium and super tough. It takes a 20 mm or 30 mm canon shell to knock them out.

I don’t remember where I found it from, but a Soviet pilot who flew MiG-15s against F-86s likened the .50-cals as peas bouncing off of metal.

late models solved the (gun) gas ingestion problem and had a pair of 30mm cannon (cac Sabre)

I recently visited a local museum with one in display. That one apparently was one of a few aircraft that had been fitted with 20mm cannons to test in combat.

37mm is satisfying. Everything single hit is deadly.

Australian built F-86’s traded the .50’s for 2x 20mm cannons as built from the factory, bit of an upgrade over the yank model!

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

30 mm ADEN Cannon. And the mighty Avon engine. The US Navy Fury used 20 mm Colt guns.

@socaljarhead7670

Жыл бұрын

It’s a give-and-take. A lot less 20 mm rounds can be loaded than .50 caliber.

@thelandofnod123

Жыл бұрын

@@socaljarhead7670 no not at all. 30 mm and 20 mm cannon rounds are far superior to .50 BMG. If you have space to fit a cannon, you fit a cannon. A cannon armed aircraft can remain outside the weapons envelope of a MG armed aircraft, regardless of how many MG it carries or how many rounds it has. The Sabre was thoroughly outclassed in that department, however the superior training and combat experience of the USAF crews ensured that the Sabre remained an effective platform against North Korean/Chinese /Soviet crews. With the advent of jet powered aircraft, there was enough power to add the extra weight of a cannon system. The superior ballistics and gun aiming systems of more modern aircraft also added to the effectiveness, especially as aircraft got faster and faster.

@missionslos8856

Жыл бұрын

​@@thelandofnod123 thanks

@rob5944

Жыл бұрын

​@@thelandofnod123 yes, no point at all in having ineffective armament. As I mention above the.303 had trouble taking down bombers during the Battle of Britain, despite RAF fighters carrying a battery of eight machine guns. Luftwaffe aircraft sometimes made it back with several hundred bullet holes in them, probable evidence that at least two British planes had emptied most of their ammunition into the target. The top brass already had concerns over this weakness before the war but the 20mm Hispano was in short supply and was difficult to fit into the Spitfire's wing, when mounted sideways it was prone to jamming. I believe 19 squadron tried them but it was a failure, the problem was resolved eventually by modifying the feed system and possibly breeches, too but obviously this took time. In the case of the .50 later on the issue could be due production issues of the 20mm in US factories that meant the heavy m/g's were in service after their sell-by date, a similar situation really.

As a war thunder player the the 50 cal on the saber is the perfect representation of quantity v quality. Yes the Mig might be heavily armored, but strap in some AP-HEIT rounds and some practice tracer rounds and all it takes is one burst to cripple, and another to finish Love this plane in war thunder, best turnfighter assuming you don’t pass out

Somebody always wants bigger Guns ! 👍

Ahhhhh .the early jet combat years ..the best of aircombat...

"Something had to be done".. yea a 20mm cannon was the next move

So each bullet was filled with a small droid that would walk on the wing of the Mig, and begin to cut it with diamond tip saws. Later, nicknamed, buzz droids, because of the peculiar sound they made as they cut through the wings.

It was not abour armor, but about more robust engine. IIRC Mig 15 and F 86 equally armored.

I kind of like this series now❤

Should of had 30mm Cannons like the Australian one

Shot placement is king.

The Sabre just looks sooooo good

Reading your posts about aeronautics, especially military. I'm always impressed by how knowledgeable you are. Thank you for letting me know that there's more intelligent people out there than it seems.

some test versions on MiGs can be equiped with Twin 23mm cannons that Spreads Sabre parts in the air

"The .50 caliber lacked stopping power" That is a sentence I will probably never hear again.

We Aussies put 2x 30mm Aden cannons in our Sabres. Add an Avon engine, 7500 pounds of thrust against the 5900 of the J47, it was a kick-arse machine. Of course, rockets and Sidewinders added to the punch.

The .50 cal. lacked stopping power and...that's the banjo players Porche are two things one never hears much.

The Mig 15 is the best looking jet ever!

The Mig was the better dogfighter. It had a higher ceiling allowing it drop down on the F86. It could out rate the Sabre at higher altitudes and it's better rate of climb lets it disengage by going vertical. Plus it had 3 cannons, 2x 23mm and a single 37mm that was meant primarily for bombers. Not a coincidence the Sabres later upgraded to 20mm guns. The Sabre had the better sighting system and maybe more important was the anti-G system that made it easier for pilots to fly. The Mig didn't have anything like that, which caused a lot of fatigue.

Surprising, as Comrade Sean Connery once said, "Many things in here don't react well to bullets"

My favorite plane

Do y'all have an f-86 D?

@markthompson8656

Жыл бұрын

F-86D is my version 🥰

normally we wouldn't say that a .50 BMG "lacks stopping power" but when all it's hitting is paper thin aluminum they don't expand, and cause lots of damage like they would hitting hardened materials or flesh! They are just drilling 1/2 in. holes and passing right through without hurting much.

What they fail to realize at the beginning of the jet age is that your time on target was drastically reduced because of speed and the .50 caliber just didn't cut it anymore! It's kind of surprising they still did this because even on later models of the F4U Corsair were equipped with 20 mm cannons!

Love you channel

There were F-86's in Korea armed with 20mm cannons in place of the .50cal machine guns

And they installed 4 20mm cannons in the F variant

That's why the later variants of Sabres have 20 mm cannons

Yeah .50 was very underpowered in the jet engine

Its a tradeoff, armor vs weight of fire, speed vs weight of armor

The F-86F-2 variant was created as part in the "GunVal" program in 1952, and was up-gunned with four M39 20mm cannons. Ten F-86F-2s were sent to Korea in 1953, and two of them were lost to compression stalls caused by air intake ingestion of gasses produced when firing the cannons.

Soviets and their indestructible low tech irons, reminds me of their meat grinders that last for century

@tsugumorihoney2288

Жыл бұрын

my grandmother got sewing machine which were made in 1896 in Russian Empire and it still working well

F-86 Sabre was a major player in 1965 Indo-Pak war.

Republic Thunderbolt guns. 8-50 cals with 3400 rounds, versus 1800 rounds total for the Sabre. The single man Thunderbolt fighter carried the most ammo in WW II, along with 1.5 tons+/- of wing stores. Look up General Robbie Risners tale of the F-86, with him chasing a Russian "Honcho" in a Mig-15 during the Korean war.

It's a mite confusing because the US military learned in WWII that the .50 cal was insufficient for air to air combat. That's why you started seeing things like F4U and F8F variants pop up with 20mm cannons. And yet they did away with it and gave the Saber 6 .50 cals

That's why Australian Sabres had 4x20mm cannon

It's not only that, but the 50 cal bullets fly very much faster. So in a dogfight, you don't have to lead as far to actually hit a plane.

Saber pilots had to be careful firing their 50 calibers because it would slow the plane down every time they fired, same thing happens with the A10 warthog

Yeah. It also had a reverse engineered version of a Rolls Royce jet engine the British ministry of defence suddenly said it didn't want.

Ever since I got the Molotok in GTA I’ve loved the mig 15 lol

Dude looks like he needs a nap

Australian sabres were modified with RR Avon and 4x20mm cannons.

That’s Why the Australian Sabers had 2x30mm

Our version of the sabre had two 30 mm for that reason

thats why australia slapped 4 20mm cannons instead

more of these !!

The Sabre was so bad it held a 5.6 to 1 kill ratio over the Mig 15 in Korea..

@sealioso

5 ай бұрын

It was pilot training

That's awesome 😎

It was heavy and slow but could take a beating.

Something had to be done ... Enter the 20mm cannon.

I ... But every time a .50 bmg is shot an eagle screams in FREEDOM UNITS OF JUSTICE... Oh I see that lacked a Gau 8 avenger rotary cannon at the time

This led to development of new .50 cal ammo types and the USAF swapping to 20mm.

50 CAL WILL NEVER BE STOPPED

Something was done, atleast with the Australian ca27 Avon sabre with 2x30mm adon cannons.

Yes and the Mig had two 23mm, and a 37mm designed to basically one shot bombers out of the sky, the rounds fired would easily turn the Saber into swiss cheese

Mig-15 had one 37mm and 2 23mm cannons that were much more powerful than Us had until they put vulcan cannons

That one tear on the inlet's paint job lol

In 1965, India Pakistan war, Pakistani Air Force young fighter pilot M M Alam who was very well know as "Little Dragon" flying in F-86 Sabre shot down six Indian Air Force fighter jets in one minute which is a world record till today. (Farrukh Hasan, Bhakkar, Pakistan).

And in war thunder they either miss entirely or demolish the enemy😂

Apparently the. 50 wasn't powerful enough. Migs would come back full of dents at times

They tried arming the F86 with 4 20 mm cannons.

What is stenciled above the guns and forward of wind screen?

The 50 cal did not lack stopping power. The F86 6 guns were zeroed so when a area of a jet gets hit, it's not getting hit by 1 or 2 rounds but 6 rounds into one small area. Plenty of sabres would go up against mig 15s and shooting wings and tails off. So that's more of a myth about the mig.

@harveyknguyen

Жыл бұрын

I think it was more of the "I just hit this guy in the engine multiple times now and he's flying completely fine" kind of "lack of stopping power"

I saw an old poster about the f-86 at a Cracker Barrel today 😂

The F-866 was armed with the iconic >M2 .50 machine gun. Not the M-3 machine gun which did not exist.

@sealioso

5 ай бұрын

Neither does the f-866