Only got as far in so far as "I'm not going to talk to you in YOUR sandbox, you can't make me do what I don't want to do" after dog training podcasters literally offered him money to sit down and have a conversation and couldn't help but think "Wow, I guess positive reinforcement DOESN'T always work. Thanks for proving that for us, Zak". 😂

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol yeah that part really threw me off.

@kellyhayes

Жыл бұрын

YES! 😂

@JG0en187

Жыл бұрын

Oh... that was a great tie-in something to think about.

Holy shit, Zak George brought up Grizzly bears, Joe Rogan has entered the chat, "Jamie, pull up that video of Zak George training an aggressive Grizzly bear with positive only training, that shit was fucking hilarious man."

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂😂

I have a 1 year old mastiff mix who is equal in size to me at this moment (125 lbs). 4 months of daily, frequent walking based on positive reward based training did absolutely nothing. I would watch Zak's videos trying to emulate the same teachings. In a 1 hour training session with a local dog trainer, who introduced me to a prong collar, corrected the power of the pulling my mastiff exerted onto me. Teaching my dog to 'leave it' while walking past distractions (i.e. dogs, squirrels, birds, people on bikes) while on prong has been monumental to my relationship with my mastiff.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

The results are all that matters. Most force free trainers talk a big game. But most also aren’t ACTUALLY working with clients.

@carolinecoy3164

Жыл бұрын

​@@MiracleK9Trainingyes this. Zak talks alot, but doesn't seem to know what he's doing. He doesn't work with dogs who have real issues. So for him shouting out dog daddy in such a way, when their training is a total different thing altogether. He's doing basic sit stay training,which has it's place. But doesn't work with out if control dogs. He's a joke thinking he knows about things he doesn't deal with

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@carolinecoy3164I don’t disagree with you

@jm484

7 ай бұрын

Dogs need boundaries , structure and leaders or they explode ! Correction tools. E collar, pinch collar and slip lead . Correction and positive reinforcement. These positive only kooks don’t woke with high drive dogs. Try a Belgian Malinois in high drive mode running towards a decoy and Try a recall with no correction in the beginning. You will never get the results .

@rodreality52

7 ай бұрын

You're absolutely right I experienced that as a younger person when I bought our family's dog... Zach is nice however he is not dealing with aggressive dogs he is also not dealing with training multiple dogs at once he is also investing lots and lots of time for a minimum result... I'm not saying Zach isn't good however he's trying to buck literally hundreds of years of dog training with positive reinforcement study that quite frankly doesn't even have enough data to be proven correctly and won't stand up against the other type of correctional methods

Robert Cabral literally addressing this 19 million times, even before this high school mean girl drama. It's basically all he talks about. He's a realist. I dig his channel so much. Ivan's awesome, too lol

@MiracleK9Training

9 ай бұрын

I don't dislike robert at all. he is a great trainer. I didn't really like his argument attempt though. He fell for the bait

@user-gz3ey8xy7g

8 ай бұрын

Yes, I think something to keep in mind is that he’s not only responding to ZG, he’s speaking to his audience. He’s addressed all of this in his videos…he’s discussed punishment vs corrections. He’s discussed aversive vs abusive. I do think his argument made sense as someone who’s followed his method. He didn’t make as strong of an argument as Ivan, but I do think @MiracleK9Training was unnecessarily nitpicky.

Robert Cabral has titled dogs through the AKC and does phenomenal work for rescue dogs. I am a monthly member of the Robert Cabral channel and i have learned so much and have been able to apply to apply it to my Aussie puppy very successfully.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear. He seems like a great trainer. My arguments were simply about his points he was trying to make debating zak.

@jeffsales6836

Жыл бұрын

Robert Cabral is a far better man and far more real, helpful & straight up than this Douche Bag on this show. And I guarantee Mr. Wish you were half the Man as Robert. You're clearly jealous of his success. Mr. 200 comments. He's far more interesting, intelligent, unbiased, wise, and just better than you in just about every way. You're basically BS and trying to ride everyone else's coat tails with some actual success it seems. You're desperately trying to get real numbers going, by targeting a Real Deal Man and Trainer like Robert. I started watching your rinky dink show recently and you came off very douchebagy from the beginning, but this episode made me not want to waste another minute hearing your Hateraid. Robert is friends with & having talks with all the top Police, Military, Sport and Breeding Experts regularly. You have some unseen yesman that hangs from your nu+$, adds nothing but finally giving your BS a rest for a sec as he is a scratched record of you. SMH.

@DakotawolfManson

11 ай бұрын

Nothing Robert said was enough for people to criticize or mock him

@user-bm3ts2ql6s

11 ай бұрын

I agree, he is an amazing trainer, but the arguments were weak. Ivan's video was 100 times better. @@MiracleK9Training

Not only do I trust someone who has had success with aggressive dogs for decades, I search them out. People in lab coats have little to no real world experience. The studies are a good way to get a baseline but real world results always trump paper results.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

If I were a client looking for help that's the direction I would go as well.

Zac George should stick to puppies. Robert Cabral, Joel Beckman, Dog daddy & Caesar are ALL amazing trainers for aggressive working dogs. There’s NO way Zac’s approach would give me the results I have with my 2 Akita’s!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I agree that it’s pretty clear who’s more qualified haha

@asrotties

11 ай бұрын

TRUTH!!!! There is a huge difference between an 8 week old Border Collie puppy and a 2 year old Cane Corso with dog or human aggression.

@vongatsby3619

10 ай бұрын

Even his own dog doesn't have good obedience

This Zac is showing F ear and Aggression, and is biting and gnashing out. We need Dog Daddy to transform Zac’s bad behavior😂🤣

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

Lol the use of aversives is strong with this one

@plsdi111

8 ай бұрын

noooo, I think he needs to keep distance from dog training, and sloooowly reduce distance :D

@jamesbroughton4706

8 ай бұрын

funny

There's scientists that have been to medical school that say men can menstruate...

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

Lol... I won't get too political here.

@primalcritters

10 ай бұрын

So true. 😅😅😅

@dboynyc9487

10 ай бұрын

And that the j&b was safe and effective along with there being no treatments but said

@labitcoineragt3596

9 ай бұрын

Ouch true 😂

@mulltit.assking

8 ай бұрын

*The scientists that kept their jobs say...........

2x world champion, 14x national champion, several years training hundreds of guide dogs, and running one of the best breeding programs in America over the span of 30 year or several years in school for several years.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

A reputation that speaks for itself haha

When I take my dog to a dog trainer, he is happy. He is overjoyed to see them, even happier than he is to see me. When I take him to the vet he is not happy at all. He has at times more terrified than at any other time in his life. Why am I to look to veterinarians as experts in dog behavior? If the veterinarians are such experts then why are they doing nothing to comfort the animals in their care? I have had animals all my life, and I have been to many different vets, I have hardly met any that I saw as compassionate and understanding of my pets emotional needs. Most do not even try and quickly label my working breeds as aggressive.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

That is a pretty interesting and funny comparison! I would agree.

I really really dislike Zak and this made me dislike him more

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol

@scrambledegg8658

3 ай бұрын

yaaaay

Jesus christ, seriously, Vlog wars? I thought we had gotten out of the high school YEARS ago. Zac George🤏🍆 energy.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Hahahahaha. Yeah the idea seems kinda funny.

@Deagnetic

Жыл бұрын

It's about clashing egos at this point instead of training

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@Deagnetic a lot of it is id agree.

@asrotties

11 ай бұрын

Total playground bully tactics. Zac George started the whole thing but then wants to hide behind a video screen.

@cherylmillard2067

11 ай бұрын

There's this other tiny pr*ck of a man called Dr Orion on YT, he's a DVM and animal behaviorist, he spews the same scam bullshit. @@asrotties

I don’t think ANYTHING Robert said was wrong or enough to mock him. The man knows what he is doing and has good character. He has helped train my Belgian Malinois. I think everybody needs to just stay in their lane & their own way of training.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

I think if you’re going to publicly take on the roll of that argument, you’re stance should be pretty rock solid. If I, someone who agrees with how he trains and respect that he is extremely talented, can poke so many holes in it, then the other side absolutely will destroy it.

@DakotawolfManson

11 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training Just because each individual has a KZread channel doesn’t mean you’re in the same league as each other. I think there’s a misconception and sort of hubris thinking one can comment on another man’s craft. While also having a delusion that each of you are in the same realm of training.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

@@DakotawolfManson debating who’s better is subjective and not something I’m interested in. Debating points and if they are accurate or not accurate is all that matters. I’m happy to have my points disproven if anyone can.

Regardless of how Robert came about with his argument with Zac and fell into the trap, his method solved my neighbour's reactive lab like.. tremendously. Also, I think words of war back and forth between BT and PP are just words. Zac can talk forever I'm sure, but if he can't prove and show any result live and uncut in a real world situation, without cherry picking the dog, I can't take him seriously with his science and studies that's filled with so much flaw.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

I've got NO issue with Robert and how he trains. Just don't like his argument.

Just stumbled across you due to this whole drama. I really enjoyed you videos on this. Keep up the good work!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Adam, just felt the need to give my two cents on everything going on.

It just seems funny to me that Zak ONLY uses Reinforcement Operant Conditioning when training dogs, and argues against Punishment Operant Conditioning in dogs, but when he sees someone using Punishment Operant Conditioning in Dogs, he uses Punishment Operant Conditioning on THEM. ie. He goes after their money, and livelyhood, and tries to get them legally in trouble for animal abuse. Why not use Reinforcement Operant Conditioning on Dog Daddy, like when teaching your dogs, since it's the best way to train, and most long-term effective?

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

Lol that is the age old argument.

Grizzly man was all positive,until him and his girlfriend ended up in the stomach of a grizzly bear

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol solid point.

To be fair, I feel like the most good faith interpretation of Robert was that he misspoke when he said he's against anybody using a tool aversively, and he probably meant abusive there. In that same point, he said abusive in front of and behind the aversive

@adippinghippo

Жыл бұрын

P.s it's a red flag to not want criticism

@adippinghippo

Жыл бұрын

Super yikes when said that like midway lol

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

As far as the Robert stuff... I honestly think it could go either way. There are a lot of balanced trainers out there playing the holier than though card acting like they never use the Ecollar as an aversive while talking major shit on your everyday Ecollar trainer that just uses it like normal like the way it was designed. Regardless of if it was intentional or not I think the whole argument he made felt like there were so many holes in it.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@adippinghippo as far as the not wanting criticism part. who were you referring to with that?

@adippinghippo

Жыл бұрын

​@MiracleK9Training yeah for sure, I don't think he made very good arguments. Robert, at like 46:08 or so he says something like I don't do it so I'd like it if you didn't and that's a wild position.

This is awesome before I listened to this on the podcast I had no idea that Almond Breeze extra creamy almond milk tastes creamy like dairy milk with 50% more calcium. We're always learning. For real though, I loved this podcast. Thank you for taking the time to gather up the back-and-forths and putting it together so someone like me can follow along.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

hahahaha the adds kill me. Thank you though!

Zack you are a corporate treats dealer. Go train fearful, aggressive dogs with treats, when you do, we will all BELIVE da skyense!. Just like 1.5m and wearing dust masks....

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol. I like the job description

@erinlikesacornishpasty4703

2 ай бұрын

A freakin men! I trained my working line gsd puppy purely positive with treats for the first few months we had her and she absolutely did not understand what "no" meant and became totally aggressive possessive for the treats. She was such a bully. When we first got her, she was like any normal working gsd and responded well to praise and spacial pressure, but I didn't really know how to use that effectively. And I also was influenced 😢 by PP trainers like Zak George and tried very hard to use treat rewards as a motivator for good behavior. My pup wants to work hard FIRST and THEN eat. She needs discipline and leadership FIRST so we can WORK hard, then play, THEN eat.

This guy only follows science from people who don't train dogs! Writing papers are opinions, not actual training experience and results!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Agreed.

My only input here is Robert's first language, isn't english. Its German. He probably meant to say "anyone who uses a tool Abusively, is wrong." Not aversively. Seems to be a misstep in speech, not an accurate articulation of the thought. I could be wrong.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I would have never been able to tell. He is very well spoken. That said, regardless of what the word was he intended to say, my argument is based on his general premise that the tool is mostly non aversive. He choose to play the “this is a nice tool” card which with any trainer I’ve heard discuss it in that way I generally disagree with

@user-gz3ey8xy7g

8 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9TrainingAs a person who left who left the positive only cult, this argument was what helped me embrace balanced dog training. I’d like to understand why this is a poor argument. Why don’t you like that argument? It’s true.

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

@@user-gz3ey8xy7g we explained why in the video.

Got to the end and really enjoyed this podcast. I know Ivan and Robert have been more at the front of this entire Zak George issue, but Black Kraken Kennels did a really great podcast themselves with a renowned Animal Behavior Scientist as a guest speaker that was done really well imo ("The Great Aversives Debate" is the title of the video). If you end up doing any more videos like this, I think it'd be interesting to hear your opinions on it, especially since you're not afraid to be pretty unbiased in picking apart the Balanced trainers' arguments as well where its needed. One of the best points I think they brought up in their video was "what metric are we using to determine what a 'trained dog' is?", and I think your opinion would be valuable on that point. Anyway, whether you do or don't give it a look, this was a nice listen!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

The metric of what a trained dog is is a topic I talked extensively about in pt1 of this series! I have been meaning to check out that video you’re referring to

i hope you guys do a deep dive into Ivan and Susan Garrett podcast because I watched the full 3 hours and I could not tell you a single thing about how Susan Garrett gets a behavior out of a dog.

@cynthiagevaart5036

Жыл бұрын

She has a ton of online content if you even cared at all you could see her training methods. That podcast was not about that. I didn’t see Ivan training anything either.

@logun24x7

Жыл бұрын

@@cynthiagevaart5036 Yes, there are hours and hours of talking into a mic. So, in about 2 sentences I can describe the basic fundamentals of balanced training. Susan does not use a lure and she never says no to her dogs. Please describe Susan's basic methods to teach a behaviour.

@shepherds.pie.youtube

Жыл бұрын

​@@logun24x7 as Cynthia Gevaart said, she has heaps on free online content you can look at to learn. If you're really interested in being a good trainer you will learn every method you can and choose the best. I am a balanced trainer. I have signed up for a course from her so I can learn. But just quickly, Susan uses a lot of what's called free shaping. She sets up the environment to increase the dog's chance of success and captures behaviours she wants. The reason she doesn't use luring is because it teaches dogs to chase and fight to get what they want, where in a positive only system, you want the dog thinking they can't get anything without the trainer's permission. Hope that helped.

@KibatheMalinois

11 ай бұрын

​@@cynthiagevaart5036I was subscribed to Susan Garett then she made a statement blasting men on one of her shorts or something. Dog training has no place for woke bullshit but she had some interesting concepts but I prefer real dog training

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

I don't think their conversation really wound up going anywhere unfortunatley. I was pretty unimpressed with that episode.

This is by far the most balanced (!) approach in the matter I have seen so far. You're curious, stand by what you believe in, but are not a right-fighter or putting your ego into it. Thanks for the wisdom.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Appreciate the kind words! Independent thinking and striving to understand sides is something we try to preach here.

@AnimaTriste

10 ай бұрын

​@@MiracleK9Training I like your channel and the work that you do. I am and will remain a subscriber. But enough of this "trying to understand all sides attitude" already. Zak George is a fraud and a cult groomer. And a deeply disturbed person. He is promoting dangerous ideology (not science), which is not only killing dogs, but endangering people. Sometimes is OK to pick sides. This is not about using positive reinforcement or not, this is about stopping a fraud and a bully. It is important to be on the right side, sometimes. This pragmatism must end, if not, you are the part of a problem. We should and must make the things simple, even overly simple sometimes.

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

This video is months old. Feel free to watch my recent coverage of this situation.@@AnimaTriste

I remember when I first started hanging around ( and helping ) the local gundog trainer. It was : :who had the biggest dog truck...who had the best dog trailer...who had the most kennel space...who had the biggest training property! Kind of sad that it's come to "who has the best studio microphone "! Glad to see my Pro,still rather train dogs,than sit in a podcast studio! Big shout out to SHARP RETRIEVER'S!!

@MiracleK9Training

7 ай бұрын

Respectfully, all of us have equally large kennels and amounts of dogs we work with aside from Zak haha

Happy to see the salient points get summarized, however long it's taken. (1) Do you need immediate compliance? (2) Can you always be guaranteed to have a stronger competing motivator? (3) Do you have (infinite) time and/or space to spend on management? (and feel free to substitute $$ for time or space) (4) Can the long term effects of stress be quantified in a way that enables simple math for these tradeoffs? This topic has bounced around for so long, and there's still no good definition to what constitutes "aversive". Is it anything that causes a statistically significant rise in cortisol levels? (If only it were that easy!) That would get us away from the pointless arguments about which tools are aversive or not and bring the focus back to the dog's physical reaction to any given stimulus and the long term impact of THAT. You were pretty brutal to Robert (perhaps with just cause), but you missed a point that I think he's trying to convey and take off the table: Can we please just stop with the cartoon caricature of the neanderthal mouth breathing brute of a trainer who's fiendishly waiting to light up his (because it's always a "him") dog for some imagined transgression? That's as inflammatory as defining force free purely as pixie dust and cookies. Not useful. Zak went so far as to invoke toxic masculinity, misogyny, and the patriarchy - which needlessly fans the emotional flames and does nothing to foster understanding.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I’d you’re asking for me to answer the first handful of questions I would as follows. 1. Yes in many situations when safety is involved I believe I do 2. No, naturally the competing motivators in the environment will always be changing in intensity. Therefor SOMETIMES I may have something if higher value. Other times I won’t. Justifying the need for aversive control in the times I don’t. 3. Nope. I firmly believe our lives shouldn’t revolve around our dogs. We get dogs to enhance our lives. They need to adapt to our environment to some extent. 4. I don’t have a great answer to this one that isn’t anecdotal. That said, from my experience, most exposure to stress in controlled doses and in moderation has built up dogs threshold to stress in the future. Aversive to me means very simply something the dog in the moment would like to try to escape or avoid. As far as what that is it’s going to change on a sometimes second by second basis. My critiques of Robert are 100% on his ARGUMENT not on his character or his training. I tried my best to only criticize points he made In his debate against zak. Take that for what it is haha. Let me know if that answers what you were looking for!

@cobbdan

Жыл бұрын

Thx! Didn’t mean to imply you should literally answer the questions - just pointing out where (I think) the major points of dispute(?) remain after this algorithm inducing vlog war settles out. But I’m glad you did answer, as it’s really useful for us mere mortals. Michael Ellis has been particularly eloquent about competing motivators. A potential benefit of a more objective physiological definition of aversive is that it may provide a connection to (4) - e.g. if a certain frequency of high stress (cortisol) events above a certain duration threshold has a causal link to subsequent health/behavioral issues later on. Just musing here - thanks for being snarkily provocative! Entertaining and informative!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@cobbdan I love the conversation. I think it should be engaged with for the purpose of making sure WE actually know what we’re talking about haha

Zak comes across as fanatic to me, a pity, his knowledge could be valuable but I'm put off not by what he says but by how inflexible he seems to be.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I agree. He's not an idiot. I'm sure he has some good knowledge on him. But this war he's created is off putting everyone else to him.

@marylynch8929

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training His starting all this debate actually prompted me to buy, fit and learn to use a prong collar, though I had no need for a tool. I just wanted to be able to make up my own mind with actual hand's on experience. Having done this, both my dog and I think Zak needs a serious rethink.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@marylynch8929 I think being able to make up your own mind on these things is a skill he’s lacking.

@tinksgolightly8250

Жыл бұрын

@@marylynch8929 i use a herm sprenger neck tech for my heeler who is extremely fear agressive towards small children. It started as a safety thing because id prefer her uncomfortable and not biting a kid to the alternative, you cant control other people's kids after all, but finished with all sorts of positive extras. The first being allowing her to focus and self calm. Which makes everthing eadier. When i tell her to go get her collar 90% of the time she brings me her spenger 😄

@marylynch8929

Жыл бұрын

@@tinksgolightly8250 Yeah. I didn't really need the collar (herm sprenger also) for walking or anything, I was just distrusting all the negatives and had to see it, try it, for myself. Anyway, it came in very handy lately when we had children visiting and pup got waaaay too overexcited. I popped it on and pup settled down immediately, though he had only had it on twice before. He sat nicely beside them and the kids were able to pet him and talk to him. So it gave them the the chance to get familiar, nice and calmly. I'm hoping next time we might not even need it. Magic tool, I'm glad to have it in my arsenal.

So far, dog daddys' response to zac has been my fav!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol that one was pretty funny too.

@Zionsol777

11 ай бұрын

dog daddy is a great trainer and person.

If we’re going to talk about word play, which is what all of this is. We should talk about just the names of the training. Positive ONLY. Or Balanced. You’ve got to train the dog that’s in front of you. It’s that simple. If you’re using anything with the word ONLY in it. You’re not going to be able to train all the dogs that you come across.

@MiracleK9Training

7 ай бұрын

I don’t disagree. But I believe the “positive only” trainers have denounced that phrase a long time ago.

The bottom like is1) Owners are NOT trainers and most people have no clue how to train a dog or even have the time. 2) People who have dogs with issues want and need to have quick results for safety reasons or prevent the dog being dumped or put down. 3) Many owners don't have money for trainers as insurance, flea/tick treatments/food /toys etc are expensive. The average training for many dogs is about 3 weeks and cost $4-5K! In an ideal world we'd all have hours everyday to learn to be a professional dog trainer and take out time to take weeks, months or even years to work with dogs in only positive ways. In the REAL world tools help people who are not trainers, not rich, and don't have time to slowly correct dog behaviors to ensure safety of the family, community and the dog. I can see many dogs being killed (as if there aren't enough) as a result of banning these tools. All tools can be abused. But that is no excuse to ban them. Cars kill many people everyday because some people are stupid! But we don't ban cars! I think Zac needs to get in the REAL world not the IDEAL world. I've seen his videos and used many of his techniques...But I also have an abused Pitbull mix recue who needs an e-collar so we can all be safe. I don't 'zap' him...but I do 'beep' him. He is a different dog now...He was due to be put down as he had been returned several times and only the e-collar changed that and gave him a great and happy life. He rarely has his e-collar on now unless I think something may be unsafe for him or others.

@MiracleK9Training

9 ай бұрын

I agree with you that tools can help bridge the gap and gain some control on your own without needing to spend thousands of dollars and hours to get results.

OK I am on a rant..... Zak George put on the shorts video on u tube today or very recent that he now Quote on Quote" I am very stressed" I was like what Wow!!! He is now saying you should ask your vet what kind of dog training you should do for your dog because science says so. Really????? So I made a call today to my vet and told him I have 4 high drive dogs 2GSD's and two Aussies so I told my vet I was having trouble with one of my dogs and what should I do . He responded and said Quote; Well I am not a dog trainer and it sounds like you need to seek out a good trainer. Go to several dog training class and observe how they do there training and if one would help you with the problem then go to them. That would better the best way. Since a good dog trainer works with all kinds if issues. I said thank you that is exactly what I needed to hear. Now even tho my dogs are trained not perfect but they do mind. So Zak needs to do his own training as he likes and leave all the other trainers alone and take 100 deep breaths and go to zero and calm down 100 notches and get off this kick of this science based training. Hes doing nothing but stressing himself out over nothing and he should concentrate on his own method of training and shut up. Leave other trainers alone and let them train the way they see fit because all dogs are different and have to be trained differently. Lastly I have listened to some of Zaks Training and I am not impressed. Robert, Nate Ivan Andy and a few others are the best online trainers. Not drama guy Zak. By the way I have used pong collars,, and e collars and have had great results especially on one of my GSD dogs,,, which was very aggressive dog. She turned completely around and only had to use it for two days and turned into the best dog anyone could have. I say no more.

@MiracleK9Training

9 ай бұрын

funny how the "consensus" isn't as consistent as they make it seem :)

Ivans response so funny:D

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

100% haha

Damn Ivan blew him a Jason Statham vibe!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

😂😂

Zak won’t have the conversation with any one because he needs to make content to keep the views up on his channel he wants the vlog war !!!! Ivan has been breeding and training dogs longer than zak has been alive!!!!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, this whole thing has been a big marketing ploy on his end. And a smart one at that.

The funny thing is, Zak is trying to change people ("inner change comes when one is ready to have that change"). Everyone else is not (it is a tool in the toolbox). It is that simple.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I’d completely agree.

@susanlippy1009

10 ай бұрын

Correct. Most people come to the table already having an opinion and simply looking to have their opinion validated. Which is not an approach that's beneficial. More people need to come to the table with an open mind and the desire to do what is best for our dogs long term. That includes folks on both sides of the debate. Yes Zac wishes to push his philosophy and use his influence to change societies views on dogs. The trainers in opposition are sitting on home base thus not needing to to do so. Yes the devices being used are tools. I tend to be of the belief that the tool being used is far less relevant than the skill of the handler. No tool works if you don't consistently and correctly utilize it. I also believe it's not impossible to achieve results without the use of tools. You can build a house without a nail gun but that tool makes the job easier. Science is best done when you start from a place of not knowing. Once you have a set belief it's unlikely you will change from that short of a major upheaval.

Great podcast guys, just a lil request, sometimes I cant hear you guys, it happens when you are a lil bit far from the mic. Keep that in mind for the next podcasts 👍

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

thanks for the feedback and the listen!

The key flaw with R+ training is the time line and the difficulty in transferring the skills to Joe and Karen with 2 Kid and that are both working 9 to 5 jobs. If your a full time dog trainer that's spent 10,000 hours perfecting your craft and all you do all day is train dogs great for you can make it work, Or you can spend a hour with a trainer that can show you how to fit and use a prong collar pop the dog once or twice and see vast improvement in a few days, The internet is littered with stories with people who have been with 5 or 6 FF trainers and finally found a Balanced trained that gave them a plan that work for them.

@shepherds.pie.youtube

Жыл бұрын

Yep and I agree. Unfortunately though it's not all good when people get fed up with positive only trainers and go to a "balanced" trainer. I've seen some really terrible trainers who will just yank and crank and give a treat at the end and call it balanced. We need to be aware of those trainers and call them out just as much as the positive only people who refuse to change their minds.

@logun24x7

Жыл бұрын

@@shepherds.pie.youtube Bad dog trainers are just bad, there are plenty of them in both camps. But take 2 of the best say Susan Garrett vs Ivan Balabanov give then each a bat shit crazy rip your face off dog for 2 weeks one dog comes back vastly improved and the other dog comes back with a full tummy. I’ll let you guess which is which.

@shepherds.pie.youtube

Жыл бұрын

@@logun24x7 I'm sorry but if you don't even understand the other side (positive only) then you shouldn't be making an argument against it. I am a balanced trainer. I'm on your side, to a degree. But by using arguments like "the quickest way is always the best" you're only giving them ammunition. It's actually not that difficult to make a solid argument against positive only training; but not in that way. Quickest fix is not always the best. It is SOMETIMES. But not always.

@logun24x7

Жыл бұрын

@@shepherds.pie.youtube By what measurer is Quickest not better ... the welfare of the dog .. the heartbroken family about to give up on it ... the second time returned to the shelter dog .. the dog about to be put down for livestock interference ... show me the dog that has long term welfare issues that has had proper e-collar or prong collar training ... and I'll show you 1000's of dog's in IPO training that are living large and loving life ... and if long term welfare isn't the issue then what is, .. you think your going to cure a dog of fear by giving it a cookie, if you get that to work there are a couple of hundred thousand people in the world that would love to find a cure for their fear of heights, spiders or flying that would pay big bucks for that therapy ...and if you can explain to me Susan Garret's never say No or use a food lure, failure free, multi layering of reinforcement training ... I'm all ears ... because It all sounds like Hokes Pokes marketing and bullshit to me along with excuses for a lack of results like "faster is not always better"

@shepherds.pie.youtube

Жыл бұрын

@@logun24x7 Here's an example of "quickest is not always best". A dog who is afraid to lie down. We could put a prong on him, force him into a down, and release. The quickest way. Or - we could spend a little longer, using food rewards to progressively get him closer to the down, until he does it. In the first case, we got it done straight away, but the dog will be very reluctant to go into the down and it will take a very long time for him to recover. In the second case, it took longer to get there, but the dog will be happy to go into the down. Do you agree with this? Now. There are cases where quickest is best. For instance, chasing livestock. But I never said it was NEVER the best way. I just said it wasn't ALWAYS the best way.

The main issue I have with Zack is his appeal to authority e.g. AVSAB; anyone who has a background in science and reads the "studies" that the AVSAB and purely positive trainers rely on to justify their methods can see these studies are inconclusive, is usually incomplete and subjective, and not applicable to real dog training. I encourage people to ask these people for specific papers to read. The story about bears being trained just by using purely positive methods is BS as well; respected animal behaviorists commented in another video that in that case it was only a small subset of bears that were able to be trained this way (i think to administer drugs to them), the vast majority needed to be tranquilized. ZaK also mentioned he doesn't videotape him training aggressive dogs because he does not believe in triggering the dogs on camera. However, he could interview the owners and have them describe their dog's issues and explain the results (or have the owners record a typical day in the dog's life before being trained by Zak). He does not do that. He does not even bother to track down Dog Daddy's clients and interview them about their dogs and the results.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

I couldn’t agree more with all of these points.

Another great breakdown. Love your honesty.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

judge from outside things you can not do is what is not fair. Robert Cabral is a good man and thats more important than other shit around

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Not sure about zak and the other side of the argument but I don’t think myself or anyone else on the balanced side is questioning his character or ability as a trainer. Seems very talented and like a kind guy. My concerns I outlined in this video were that his argument he tried to present against zaks questions was not very good.

There's adversity in life. Even dogs understand it

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

agreed completely

Zack uses so much word salad. When I saw his video with his dog, jumping off his balcony and running away and his dogs biting him while he was training with him not being able to control his dog was the last time I thought he was a good trainer

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

I try to not judge trainers too harshly based on their personal dogs as mine aint perfect. That said, the word vomit is just a way of confusing the general public with stuff they don't understand.

Thank you for putting together this video. As someone in California I appreciate Ivan picking up the torch on the tools ban that is in process. Not sure why Cabral got involved in this conversation. I understand his heart is in the right place but pandering to this positive only people is rarely a good approach imo.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

glad you enjoyed it!

People are too quick to want to ban things because of a possibility for abusing them. Instead of just educating people more and raising awareness about using them properly. People who truly abuse dogs will do so with or without those tools! Those kinds of people are damaged and not in the same realm, universe or world of trainers who use these tools responsibly. If a trainer uses these tools abusively we should all put them on blast, and out them for the kind of trainers they are. Also these veterinarian orgs aren’t rehabbing aggressive dogs. Why can’t we have studies done say taking 60 dogs 20 as a control, 20 using Balanced and 20 using Positive only. Then look at how quickly, how comprehensively these dogs become fit for being re-homed. Because that’s the bottom line, getting dogs to live in homes well adjusted, happy, and having a strong bond with their human families.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

It’s take a lot of time and money to make a study that they would consider “accurate”. And even then they would probably discredit it somehow.

We took our previous standard poodle who lived a happy 14 years and who had pathological thunder phobia. Yes they gave meds and a few strategies all of which didn’t work. The even said meds don’t typically work but worth a try. We tried their suggestions and all we could do was stay up with her until the storm passed. We let her scratch at the news papers and it was very hard because the vet behaviourist didn’t have effective solutions. They said keep windows dark let her hide play first use treats do touch nose to hand give king wobble . , thunder shirt classical music and meds . It didn’t help and it was rough when we couldn’t ease her fear of the sound of thunder caused by the trauma as a pup with prior owner when she heard the massive propane explosion near their neighborhood . Outside of thunderstorms Roise was an easy dog who we didn’t need a trainer for. She just got calmer and easier to walk with age and we just use prevention to Jeep her from running out the front door . Now we used a pp trainer for our more challenging dog, I’m not sure there is a PP way to train our dog to never run out the door for a catch me if you can game. Management is the easier way. It could take a very long time to succeed with the R+ methods we were taught for that. In the mean time she almost rsn out on us yesterday. Anyway, science schmience. What the every day person wants is what humanely works for their dog and could care too hoots about scientific studies .

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing your story. All that matters is that you’re improving the dog and the humans life. I don’t care what methods you use as long as you check those boxes.

@barbaraferguson404

11 ай бұрын

I’ll never forget. One New Year’s Eve there was a noise at my door. There were a lot of noisy fireworks. It was odd. I opened my door and my neighbor’s dog ran into my house and went under my low table. I said, OK, Hi. He spent the night. In the morning he was ready to go.

@JanineMKartist

8 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training I now use a balanced trainer ff pp failed

Great video!!!!👏

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Zak has destroyed himself by saying “it is a “hypothesis that …..” indicating that formal structured research . Balanced dog trainers are great examples that the tools are v effective. The biggest problem is unprepared inept dog owners who fail to teach the basics. And then create a whole barrow full of problems for themselves and their pets .

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

Agreed

They should have a train off competition. A good old duel.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

haha wouldn't that be something.

@barbaraferguson404

11 ай бұрын

With a large very aggressive dog that will be euthanized if some thing isn’t done. We’re not talking about obedience training, we’re not talking about my 14 year old miniature dachshund although I think it would be a hoot to get him a teeny tiny prong collar.

Robert Cabral highlighted "4 CAPTIVE" grizzly bears. Which I hear as inline with your point that the bears are in a cage. Just my take.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I completely agree with that point

You wanna know what’s aversive? A dog pulling so hard into a flat buckle collar that it destroys its own trachea, larynx, and vertebrae. You wanna know what else is aversive? A dog that lives its entire life on a 6 foot leash. Prong and ecollar solve both of these problems, quickly, gently and effectively. Let’s all stop pandering for KZread subscribers and let’s all stop beating around the bush and trying to sound smart.

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

Agreed for sure.

The problem I have with zak is he is actively adding to the toxic my way or the highway thinking pattern. I have no problem with his training style if it works for him (I don't think it really does when he steps out of his comfort zone) and loved his old puppy and trick training videos. But we don't need more toxic atmosphere in the dog community and for that reason I no longer follow him

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I would agree with that. Everyone is welcome to train how they’d like. Unfortunately, similarity to politics, this is a hard one for people to ignore lol

@kulan9379

10 ай бұрын

Agree, i would love if i had a dog i only could use p+ only. But i cant, he has too much drive to other stuff that is not good so i have to use aversives in the training, That he shames that side of training that workes for me is making me irritated. Its like extreme vegans, if you dont eat meat, fine, i am happy that you found your way in life, but dont shame me for eating meat.

NOT BORING very important. Keep chatting man. Need to have all folk hear this... especially Ellis' input!

@reflexdogtraining1337

Жыл бұрын

Btw, think I instigated Zack... to respond. Sadly he never responded. *in the comments Ivan made anyway.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Appreciate the listens!

Why not do their own thing and leave other trainers alone? This is a sign of our times - hateful trolling against people you don’t agree with. But I appreciate you doing these podcasts.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

Because they genuinely think we’re “hurting” the public and animals.

Balabanov for president of the International K9 Trainers Association :D

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

LOL

Good on Ivan for telling ZG to fuck off with this TikTok vlog war BS. Zak was 100% ducking the long-form discussion format because like Ivan said, he would get embarrassed, because he wouldn't be able to just lean on his pre canned appeal to authority stuff. His statement that "we're not saying it's cruel necessarily, just unnecessary" is weasel-y as hell. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing here. He and his ilk would happily testify on behalf of banning balanced methods would such a law end up on the table somewhere. 100% The claim that they don't use the these aversives on gorillas or other wild animals, etc... yea, these animals are not interwoven into everyday life the way dogs are. It's a stupid comparison to draw. I think Robert is a great trainer but I agree he was a bit out of his element in this silly back and forth.

@thecawckiestking

Жыл бұрын

Oh, I believe Zak absolutely will push for these tools to be banned. He said himself "I'm not there yet but I might get there". I think that's tell enough, because the guy is HEINOUSLY dishonest and weaponizes language to suit whatever narrative he wants. The guy blatantly lies about what his own studies say, like his whole "they use positive reinforcement in zoos" stuff. When you read his own articles about Learning Theory in zoo animals, it says CLEARLY (I've read that study like 5 times) that they "use all 4 quadrants ALONGSIDE positive reinforcement". They don't use it exclusively. And if you read even further, his own Learning Theory articles about working with zoo animals talks about using physical aversions, like "spraying gorillas with water hoses to make them enter an enclosure". Naturally, those articles try to word things in a deceptive way as well, saying "We don't use physical punishment, just negative reinforcement, training the gorilla to go into its cage through avoidance of the water, but we don't spray the gorilla BECAUSE it refused to go into the cage!" Cool story. Still physically aversive. All of his arguments rely on weasel words, and so do most of his "studies" if you actually read them in full.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

nothing will ever get accomplished typing out finely crafted messages or making videos where it is impossible to get into the weeds of this stuff in.

Vets and scientist do not necessarily make for hands on dog trainers. I remember asking a vet what age should I begin to train my pup. He said with conviction 7 months. I went home began getting my pup his food, he came running into the kitchen and immediately sat waiting for his food. I looked at him (6 weeks old) and said I guess your not waiting to be 7 months old. Vets know more about animal health than most (not always) and without a doubt scientist are knowledgeable. Not necessarily dog trainers. I have had success with the smaller and the larger breeds, with "aggressive" and what I have found is that for any problem child that might surface patience is most needed. I don't see force or fear as a constructive tool. I use calm interaction with direction and correction. To fight with your dog seems self defeating.

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

Agreed completely.

Just thinking outloud…I have no idea if this is a dumb thought or not, but the studies are highlighting levels of stress and making the judgment that stress is bad. Is it necessarily true that all stress is bad?

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

I agree completely with you. They also discount many other important points that factor into success of a program

Also, I have a problem w one thing. Zak IS wrong. Just bc there's not a specific study to back up common sense ("balanced" training), it doesn't mean he's not wrong. He's 1000% wrong. Anyone who has kids, OR A DOG, knows this. I have to correct my dog when he tries to run into the street. Or when he displays fear aggression. It's literally common sense. Zak is woke. Wokeness negates common sense. I think we all know that by now 💁‍♀️

@MiracleK9Training

9 ай бұрын

he is not wrong per the "sneaky wording" he used. Which is why it is an impossible argument to try to have.

Good stuff.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Zak, still would love to chat anytime. Hope this video showed that I'm not so biased that I only see our side as I took a decent amount of issue with the arguments made on this end too!

@zakgeorge

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training Good to know. You’re giving me crossover vibes in a good way. Keep up the good work.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@zakgeorge haha I appreciate the try but I can’t see that happening. But I’m always down to learn things from everyone!

Dog Daddy offered Zac $50,000 if he could come show him methods which work better and/or more efficient. Zac has so far refused. Why? Nothing to lose and $50000 to win... scared? Why? LOL

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

It’s obviously this whole thing was for internet clout. There wasn’t any goal for real change on zacs part

@Zionsol777

11 ай бұрын

iagree @@MiracleK9Training

@asrotties

11 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9TrainingMeanwhile, it is people like him who will work to make "tools" illegal because HE doesn't believe in them. People like Zak are "My way or the highway" He is the typical playground bully who starts crap and then acts like the victim when he gets negative response to his crap. Also, I have yet to see him do any training successfully on a truly difficult dog. Please, share a video of him doing that, if I missed it.

Given the amount of time it takes to stop a dog from lunging etc. using positive reinforcement compared to an aversive is huge and nobody is discussing the elephant in the room, positive reinforcement trainers earn way more money because of the time it takes to recondition through positive reinforcement!

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

the other key is "if it is even possible all the time or not"

@kdf525

10 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training any dog can be trained/ reconditioned through positive reinforcement , the issue is time. Also positive only trainers like to call the " other side " aversive/punishment trainers which is dishonest, punishment stops behavior. Ivan and many other's couldn't arrive to such high levels with their dogs if that were the case. I love positive reinforcement training and believe that most of us want a good relationship with our dogs but I'm not naive, some dogs need correction and a good dog trainer can tell the difference between a soft dog and a hard dog. Saddest part about this situation with Zak George is he is unwilling to sit down and have a real man to man conversation over ideas. Just because someone is a scientist doesn't mean they are correct.

I know that they're like a million comments on this already and so this will probably not be read but... The comment about toddlers and adversives: the literal best way to teach a toddler not to touch something that will severely burn them is to let them touch a slightly painfully hot coffee mug that will not injure them, but will make them cry. Then you just say the word hot-hot-hot over and over. Next time you tell a toddler something is hot, that toddler is not going to touch it... The alternative is to give them a word with no concrete meaning until they burn themselves on the actual stove and have to go to the hospital.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I think you hit the nail on the head which is there are ways to use aversives that aren’t ALWAYS what people think of when they think of dogs constantly only getting ridiculously high corrections for things.

53:23 Honestly I think your explanation of "Training FOR the emergency" is the best way anyone on this debate has worded it so far. Its what I've been sort of trying to explain in comment arguments on the issue but couldn't quite find the right words for. In order for a dog to understand the difference between your non-aversive tap-on-the-shoulder situation of "I want you to come to me" vs a hard correction "you MUST listen to me RIGHT THIS INSTANT because this is an EMERGENCY", that needs to be trained so that the dog understands (in a reasonable and realistic manner obviously, not yank-and-cranking just because). If you don't train your dog to understand what different levels mean, because dogs aren't going to automatically know without the training (just like humans don't understand a foreign language until they learn it), then the tool isn't doing its job and you shouldn't be using it at that point. If you've done a really good job training a dog with an aversive tool, like you said, even using a word that has been paired with the harsh correction in the past may be enough to stop the animal in anticipation of the correction without even needing to use the tool during that emergency situation.

@emidude

Жыл бұрын

You can absolutely train FOR the emergency sitaution with positive reinforcement. In fact, the reason a lot of people think positive is unreliable is because they are attempting to train IN the situation before the dog has the necessary skills, and shoving a piece of food in their face in that moment is not going to do anything. If you build up the skills in advance and your dog decides they suddenly want to go bark or chase something, you can absolutely train an instant flip around and RUN straight back to you using only positive but it takes time, effort and nuance to do correctly. Dog behavioral science is absolutely amazing and quite scary in how they've figured out how to best manipulate dogs behaviour. Look up concept training

@thecawckiestking

Жыл бұрын

@@emidude Except that there is a critical flaw in that method of training. Let's take for example teaching a dog to avoid rattlesnakes. Is there a positive reinforcement method to do this instead of aversives? Yes. People can train the dog to avoid snakes by introducing the scent of a snake (without the danger of an actual snake there) and then teach an auto-recall whenever they come across snake scent. Which I think is awesome, I really do. But here's the flaw. What happens if your dog does something like, say, escape from your yard and go wandering through rattlesnake territory? Or from your car? Or just generally goes off somewhere that you aren't there? The auto-recall only works when you're present to give the reward. So what happens when there is no owner to recall to or no reward to receive? If the only thing the dog has ever been taught is "recall back to me and you receive something good", then that training becomes absolutely useless in a situation where the dog does not have the opportunity to receive a reward and self-gratification by doing the "right thing". (and you can replace the rattlesnake with any other danger, such as chasing cars, squirrels, rabbits, etc. the concept remains the same) If there is nothing in it for the dog now, then chances are, its going to get bitten. But let's say for a moment that the dog finds a snake and runs AAALLLLL the way home thinking its going to get a reward for doing the "right thing". But you as the owner have no idea where the dog has been, or that it found a snake, all you know is its been gone all day doing who knows what. Maybe you scold the dog, maybe you don't, but the dog doesn't receive the reward for returning when it found a snake. And the dog goes, "Wait a minute, I did what I was supposed to do, where's my reward?". You've now damaged the dog's expectations of what behavior gets what response. On the flip side of that, let's say you taught a dog that every time it goes near the scent of a snake, it gets a small, unpleasant zap. And you do this consitently, where the only time the dog gets a zap is it goes near a snake. Dogs aren't stupid. They can do a metaphorical 1+1=2. They can correlate the zap with the snake and know "its only when I go near snakes that bad things happen", and avoid snakes from then on. And the dog having a negative association with venomous snakes is 100% appropriate, because the consequence of getting too close and getting bitten means that dog dies. Did you know that for a lot of dogs, it takes as few as 3 corrections on an E-Collar to completely avoid the source of the correction? Jamie Penrith has a lot of great videos about this involving teaching "sheep killing dogs" to avoid sheep so they don't get shot by farmers. He has a channel here on youtube if you're interested in looking it up. 3 seconds of discomfort, in exchange for having a long, safe, healthy life, even after the E-Collar is never used again. Christiansen et al also empirically studied this and found it to be true. Its one of the only true study that's been done on E-Collars that hasn't been completely debunked, unlike the deliberately rigged Cooper et al. "study" comparing E-Collars to Positive Reinforcement. Now, if you want to put your faith in positive only training that its SO SO SO effective that even in your absence, even when the availability of reward doesn't exist, the dog will still make the correct choice for its own safety, and you want to bet your dogs' life on it, then that's great. I wish you the best of luck. But me? I'm not willing to bet my dog's life on a theory that positive only trainers keep preaching works, but time and again, have only been able to talk about how effective it is, and not been able to actually show it. If you do end up looking up Jamie Penrith, I recommend first watching his video titled "This dog is EXACTLY what happens when training with positive reinforcement meets reality", "Dog Shows How Easily Reward Training Fails", and "How to stop a dog from chasing sheep using positive pure reward-based dog training methods".

@emidude

Жыл бұрын

@@thecawckiestking Thanks so much for this detailed reply! I didn't realise it could be so effective with such little use, and that does make sense pairing the zap with the trigger rather than the owners voice. It would be interesting to know your take on the use of ecollars for obedience training where not listening to the owner is whats paired with the zap. I am also wondering, once you have got the dog scared of snake scent and your dog escapes into snake territory and smells the snakes but doesn't get zapped, do you have to worry about the dog learning complacency over time? If top ups are required, is there a risk the dog is going to associate the zap with the collar instead of the snake? But what you describe does sound really good if that is how its working for you. My concern is the danger of doing it wrong - how do you know what the right setting is for your dog without some degree of trial and error? Some dogs are very sensitive and prone to neuroticism and you don't have to be an abusive person to make it too strong or be a bit clumsy with your timing to do psychological damage to the dog. You could argue that training is an important part of it but to be really skilled pretty much always involves learning through making mistakes and those mistakes could be serious for your dog. I clearly don't have any first hand experience using an e-collar and I am open to you correcting my preconceptions but I have seen the negative effects of a well meaning owner in the case of using e-collar for obedience. I would push back on the idea that all the positive reinforcement can be lumped together on the same level of effectiveness. To use the snake example, your dog escapes from the yard where snakes are. With the concept training using positive reinforcement I am describing, all the dogs food comes from playing games with you, this rewires the dogs brain to highly value particular particular concepts you want your dog to know. For example, you can play games (in your house before slowly expanding outwards) to get your dog to highly value proximity to you. You play a constantly changing selection of games randomly thought the day that reinforce this concept to the point where the reward for the dog is GETTING to be near you. You don't need food in any given moment to reward a particular action, YOU are the reward! This dog is not going to escape the yard, except to hunt you down (this literally happened to me the other day, dog was SO pleased with herself, I had no treats on me, I wasn't angry but I was shocked and terrified, she didn't care, she was so chuffed). That is definitely still a problem, but you teach other skills as well such as calm, disengagement from distraction, tolerance of frustration, etc. Disengagement is a key one because for a dog that really values this, anything that grabs their attention is the trigger for them to check in with you. It doesn't matter if they have had experience with that particular thing before, they go "oooh wtf is that" and that triggers them to go check in with you. The down side of this method is that, even using all of their food allowance every day, it still takes time to build up those skills to 100% rock solid, so you really have to only give them the level of freedom you know they are capable of handling at that time. I totally agree that talking is empty without seeing the results. Having started on traditional positive, switched to mild negative (which only made things worse) and then switched again to concept positive, the thing that sold it to me was seeing the dogs! Look how happy these dogs are to be hanging out with their owners kzread.info/dash/bejne/fGt1mq2MhpDFhcY.html and no it's definitely not just for labradors and poodles, in all their videos the dogs are like that. My dogs have just about the worst genetics and aggressive drives you can imagine, the dog that broke out the house to join me had previously killed a deer on a hike before starting this training and has a natural dislike of being near humans. She obviously still has areas to grow but the transformation has been shocking, so I definitely believe them when they say it works for every dog. I watched all the videos you suggested and clearly those dogs do not have the skills of disengagement or proximity and it just highlights the difference between attempting to train IN the situation instead of training FOR the situation. I challenge you to show me a dog trained on an ecollar to demonstrate the same level of true joy and desire and focus as the absolute dogs people's dogs.

@thecawckiestking

Жыл бұрын

@@emidude For E-Collars used in general obedience, I think its fine as long as you know what you're doing. If you don't, I suggest finding trainers who do know what they're doing. My personal recommendations are Ivan Balabanov, Shield K9 (my two personal favorites), Robert Cabral, and Upstate Canine Academy for best use, best results, and best relationship with the dog itself. Obviously not all trainers are on their level of effectiveness without causing harm, but we live in the age of the internet, and people post their stuff online freely so its easier than ever to research trainers and see their work before committing to their methods. With general obedience, I think it should be used at low levels (a tingle, not a zap, unless needed) in a consistent and clearly understood manner. Both good dog trainers and actually good studies (there are a lot of bad ones) show that when an animal can predict an "aversive event" reliably in correlation with something specific, such as a time of day or a behavior, the animals don't suffer long-term negative side effects. Black Kraken Kennels did a wonderful podcast about this with a world renowned Animal Behavior Scientist as their guest speaker a while back ("The Great Aversives Debate"). All training, good or bad, positive or balanced, has an element of decay to it over time. All training needs some level of upkeep, so its possible that some dogs will start reverting to undesired behaviors in the absence of corrections and may need new corrections applied in the future. This is also true of positive training methods however, and commonly speaking, using ONLY positive methods, even correctly, has diminishing returns compared with correctly applied Balanced methods. There are biological reasons for this rooted in a concept known in psychological science as "Positive-Negative Asymmetry". Dogs becoming "E-Collar wise" is a problem some suffer from, but there are a few easy solutions to that. One is to always have the dog wear the E-Collar along with other collars even when its not in use. If you only ever put an E-Collar on to create negative experiences, yes some dogs figure out the collar is the problem. To avoid that, you always have it wear it along with other collars regardless of whether you use the stim or not (obviously appropriately rotating the collar as needed so the contact points don't cause agitation always sitting on one place). Or if you are newly introducing an E-Collar for problem behaviors, you can put the collar on without using it for a few weeks so that the dog gets used to the E-Collar without associating it with the stim, and then start using it after its worn the collar for a while where nothing has happened so far, so that there is a disconnect between the collar and the correction to avoid the dog becoming collar-wise. You can also condition a dog to get excited with the introduction of an E-Collar (or prong, or choke chain, or any other gear) because the E-Collar means good things happen, like getting to run around off-leash only when the collar goes on. The same as some dogs are conditioned to love regular leashes because it means going for a walk. The problem with wanting to use it "only" for emergencies and not general obedience, if you have a dog that doesn't listen well without mild corrections and direction, is that if you have a dog that can get away with blowing you off on general obedience whenever it wants with no consequence, then you're also going to have a dog that is more likely to blow you off during the emergency situation. If you are inconsistent, then your dog's reliability will also be inconsistent. As for "not doing it wrong", there are a lot of videos that explain it better than I can in a youtube post, but generally every dog you need to "find its levels". You start at a 1, no reaction? Go to a 2. No reaction? Go to a 3. Rinse and repeat until the dog shows a mild reaction such as looking around, looking at you, giving a shake, etc. when you use the stim button. That level should only feel like a "tap on the shoulder". That is usually your dogs' level - all dogs are a little different. Some feel the stim at 2, some don't feel it until 10, etc. For most general obedience and listening, the minimum level is often enough under most circumstances. Its only if the dog gets into a heightened state of arousal and doesn't respond to its "normal levels" that you give it a harder zap, if the situation demands the dog listens to you for someone's safety. I also see the argument quite a bit how "using aversives wrong could damage your dog", but seldom do people talk about how using positive reinforcement or "force free" incorrectly can cause damage as well. Zak George is a stunning example of how bad "positive only" training can ruin a dog. Ivan Balabanov did a podcast discussing this with Dr. Michael Perone, who studied the negative effects of positive reinforcement, if you're interested in learning more. I do agree with you that making yourself the reward for the dog is a good way to do that, but the best trainers I know follow that philosophy, while also using an E-Collar and other tools (Ivan Balabanov and Haz Othman/Shield K9) and have great relationships with the dogs they train. I watched the video you linked all the way through and while I think what they're doing is great in a feel-good sort of way, I have to wonder if you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing. Are the dogs happy? Are they staying close to their owners? Not causing problems? Yes, of course. But do you notice something else? They're walking on a long, boring dirt road without a single distraction that would interest a dog. No cars. No other animals. No other people. No other sounds. No other dogs. I would be much more interested to see these same dogs walking in a busy environment such as on a city street or in another high distraction environment, and see if that training still holds up. You also mentioned that its "not only labs and poodles" but I tried skimming through that channel and even after searching for a while through a few dozen videos, the only videos I could find was using border collies, labs, and poodles. All user friendly handler-focused breeds, all on boring walks, and the other videos were done on camera stages or in agility fields, all completely controlled environments free from distractions of any kind, even other handlers and dogs, that are easy to work in for just about any dog. I couldn't find a single video of them showing a trained dog in a difficult environment, or a single video of a difficult breed like a dutch shepherd, malinois, husky/malamute, rottweiler, etc. Ivan Balabanov and Haz Othman/Shield K9 both have great videos doing just that. Taking dogs, some of them completely untrained or with reactivity issues, and making them completely reliable off-leash in just about any environment after only 4-6 weeks of training. If you're really interested in learning more about my stance on this whole issue, I do have a video on my channel that I made on it ("Zak George's Dog Training Crisis Is A Blatant Lie"), but its a very very long video. It gets into a lot - lot - lot more than I can fit into a youtube comment though. But if you want to jump straight to the parts relevant to our debate, these are the timestamps you might be interested in, most with actual videos of E-Collar trained dogs that I picked out specifically to compare them to "positive only" trained dogs :) 00:32:22 - 00:41:25 Showing happy E-Collar trained dogs vs nervous wreck "positive only" dog 01:20:55 - 01:25:12 E-Collar training gives nervous puppy more confidence 02:06:30 - 02:13:39 How To Do Corrections Correctly Explained 07:07:36 - 07:49:49 Comparing "positive only" dogs to E-Collar dogs There are also a bunch of related links in the video's pinned comment you can check out.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

most problem behaviors people experience are "in emergency situations" so we need to set up THE EMERGENCY>

😂🤣😂🤣 putting your two cents into the zac George robert and Ivan discussion to fall in the algorithm 🤣🤣 well played miraclek9 well played 😂🤣

They dont wanna talk about it cause these people are the type that we know you dont yet they will tell people there dog is the problem talking is how we all learn its not about whos right or better its about how can we grow as a community cause we all love dogs

"I hecking love science." Well it doesn't always work.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

LOL.

I love how zak george thinks hes a dog trainer.. hes not a dog trainer...hes a trick trainer

Zak loves his brand, clicks/views, and interaction as much or more than dogs. Its the sad, disappointing, pathetic truth of Zak George.

@MiracleK9Training

9 ай бұрын

agreed.

You guys are trainers and competition winners at very high levels of discipline agility obedience etc. what are Zak George’s credentials?

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

Who knows. I think he won some disc dog tournaments. I won’t take that from him.

I’m not a professional, but I think it is ok to correct your dog so it knows not to do the unwanted behavior. I’m my opinion how is a child or dog supposed to know that it is making mistakes if you don’t inform them of the incorrect behavior? I have a female Dutch shepherd, we correct her w/ a stern no, body pressure & e-collar (not all at once, depends on the circumstances). E-collar set at level 6 at all times! We have a wonderful well balanced “Lunatic” dog. She is a princess in public! I trust her with my child! My 2 cents, if you don’t like what others are doing, don’t watch, change the channel or go find a way that suits your style! There is more that one way to skin a cat! Have a great day dog people!!!!

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Consequences are a way of life with both dogs and people. That doesn't mean they need to be horribly aversive, filled with anger, or mean. They just have to be.

@ZimCrusher

11 ай бұрын

Operant Conditioning is basically just reward and punishment. The rat in the box, with multiple levers. It can be self induced, or controlled by an outside element (you, in the case of the dog). If you grab something hot, then you are not going to do that again. Once is enough, normally. If you jump into a pool and it's icy cold, the next time, you will test the water. If you grab a boob, that's not your wife's, odds are, you are going to get a beating. If the dog pulls on a prong collar, and you give a correction tug, the odds of him doing it again drop. These are all acceptable ways of learning. The problem comes in extreme cases. If you grab something hot, and your dad makes you hold on to it, as punishment, that's abuse. If your dog pulls on a prong collar, and you lift him up by it, for 20 seconds, that's abuse. If your dog does not come when you call, and you zap him with a shock collar on max, that's abuse. Zak does not seem to know the difference. A zero tolerance policy is why we have little kids getting suspended, for having Blunt-Nose Scissors in their backpack.

I got a 6 mouth old rottweiler who is a bit for a pain when walking like play me up on play aggressive behaviour or picking things up off the floor and playing up me wanting me to take in off him he don't put good passing other dogs and ppl but will pill towards dogs and ppl to just say hello i use prong colleor on direct him and prong made all that go aeay the first time i put it on him its amazing life is easy for the dog and me blessings ❤

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

glad you found some success with your dog!

I don't watch any of these people but am fascinated by all the drama

@pookieandfluffernutter

Жыл бұрын

I would really like to see an actual debate between the two camps, though.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

there is a degree of entertainment value behind all of this haha.

what I would've asked if I was robert: if I can't afford a trainer and +R didn't work, my dog chases deer, so I buy a $75 sportdog from TsCo and shock the dog for chasing deer, and shock the dog for not recalling. is it compulsion? yes. does it work because the dog is afraid to be shocked? absolutely. is that worse than continuing to let the dog out without a leash and with a propensity to chase deer? i don't think so.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I am 100% with you on a great way to get past an issue on a budget so that you can let them enjoy more freedoms later on. BUT. You know their argument would be "ecollars can still fail and that doesn't outweigh the risk of the potential fallout that using averse as as opposed to just keeping the dog on a long lead in the yard" haha.

@nick_trains_dogs

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training yeah, also definitely not how i'd reccomend handling the issue lol but it's a scenario that shows how out of touch some people can be. they talk about aversives requiring skill and act like differential reinforcement of incompatible behaviors and managing around competing reinforcers doesnt lmao

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@nick_trains_dogs you are super spot on there.

Maybe give him a treat or a hot dog to do a podcast 🤣

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

LOL maybe.

The other thing... these pro organizations.. how many in these organizations have exposure to the full spectrum of dogs, behaviors and have done it first hand.

Zak should wear more eyeliner. 🙄

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol

Like it say we all not the same so that mean we work different ways to work round things same with dog training what works for you and the dog cus all dogs are same, all different 🌟

@djpythons1252

11 ай бұрын

So that means training have to different ways for the best 🎉

Still only one video destroyed him. He can't handle the situations in my video. Why is he so scared? Because he loses.

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

who knows.

With regards to a dog creating a positive association to the e collar stim via positive reinforcement, is it possible to 1)do this by rewarding a dog for complying AFTER receiving a correction? 2) possible to overuse the e collar so that the dog essentially becomes used to the sensation and no longer sees it as aversive?

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

So these are some really interesting points. It IS possible to create a positive association with the COLLAR. Meaning the dog likes having it put on. But the use of the collar is still strictly an aversive. That is what we're shooting for. The dog not to be averse to the COLLAR just to the correction. As far as the dog creating a positive association with the stim.. Like I discussed in this video. It's possible, but its completely ridiculous thing to do. If you wanted the dog to just develop a positive association with a neutral sensation just use a verbal marker. To your last point about getting used to the stim. Any correction we give is contingent on two things. 1. that they are averse to the sensation. and 2. they understand what that aversive is for. Once does not work without the other. The dog may hate the correction but if they don't know how to avoid it they will continue to fight it and seem like they "got used to it".

@patmunro3531

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training But, the dog decides what it finds aversive. A "soft" dog will comply as if punished if you scowl at it. A "harder" dog will give you the finger. I had a VERY soft dog, Did appeasement wees if anyone raised their voice {kids and loud dad}, But every summer she caught bees in her mouth, held them till they stung, then jumped and spat them out. Immediately caught another one. How was that NOT aversive, using pain. Some dogs must LIKE it. Wouldn't a dog like that LIKE an ecollar?

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@patmunro3531 These are really great points to address for sure. So as far as the first question of doesn't the dog decide what is aversive? 100%! There are plenty of dogs that simply are not averse enough to the Ecollar in some situations to outweigh the reinforcement of the unwanted behavior. In this case the dog LOVES to chase and bite bees. The dog is averse to the sting, but not enough to inhibit the behavior of biting them. Other variables that may play into a dog still rehearsing a behavior in the presence of an aversive sensation would be the predictability and inevitableness of the averse. Lets say a dog really likes to counter surf. 1 out of every 10 times the dog reherses the behavior there is some sort of highly aversive think that happens. That is not enough to create an inhibition. The consequence must be tangible and happen every time. Clarity + Motivation must both be present in order for learning to take place. All that to say, even if a dog ISN'T averse to the Ecollar, that's even more to the point of that would mean the tool is pointless for that dog OR we have a clarity issue.

@patmunro3531

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training Present day. Dog in question UK Police Bred GSD. High Prey drive, is an understatement. Location Scottish Hill Farm, 1/2 mile up the hill, 3000 square foot yard. A LOT of Hares run past the fenceline, right up to it occasionally, BUT if I'm with her she will calmly [for her] watch them. If I'm in my caravan in said yard, and she's nipped out for a pottybreak, a hare goes by. She goes BERSERK. The fence is too high to get over. So no sheep are harmed. In fact they now ignore her. But why? Can you suggest anything? I do have a problem with using the ecollar. I think of it as a freedom leash, so I've managed 100% recall so far. BUT I CANNOT hold down the button. Would be like pulling on leash instead of a quick POP. There are no dog trainers here.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@patmunro3531 she’s doing it because she’s not under direct control. Most people TRY to solve these problems with commands. Dog chases so they say come. Dog chases so they do a down. It stops the dog in the moment but doesn’t tell them don’t do this even if I’m NOT giving a command. Ecollar set all the way up with a “no” and firm “act of god correction” until she stops the behavior WITHOUT a command would likely solve this but I don’t know the dog so try at your own discretion.

Ivan read zak for filth and it was 🤌🏾 chefs kiss

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

😂😂

Ugh Zak George 👎 He doesnt get it ! PUPPY PACK LEADERS UNITE

@MiracleK9Training

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

What he is doing is appeal to authority argument fallacy. Zak George the Beta who says Alpha doesn't exists... What do we expect a Beta to say? Good work guys!!

@MiracleK9Training

5 ай бұрын

🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Zak looks as neurotic as his dogs he messes up with his positive only so called training methods. His eyes -👀 tell me all I need to know.

@MiracleK9Training

7 ай бұрын

Dude is looking rough in the eyes haha.

Zak is over the top. He is so phony. There are so many different ways to train dogs. It depends o n the dog. I have used several training tools for the 50 years I have trained dogs. All my dogs were well balanced and well trained. Ian is the man. I have learned so much from him. Love this podcast.

@MiracleK9Training

7 ай бұрын

Over the top is an understatement haha. Thanks for watching!

ZAK. GEORGE UR NOT NICE PERSON

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol

Firstly, Society influences science. It influences the methods and the topics that are researched. But in this argument about aversive techniques there's a lie being perpetrated that this is strictly for the dogs benefits, It is for owner/ people's benefit. Like the host mentioned if a dog kept chasing cars we could manage that but that would severally impacts the owners lives. And we would rather have an easier/ faster resolution. I'd love to see Zak George come on your podcast because this isn't a discussion which he says was the reason for these videos. Not doing so sounds disingenuous.

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

I’m pushing back on that big time. A life with serious management because we won’t teach the dog proper expectations of them definitely provides a lesser life to the dog. The use of aversives absolutely benifits them.

You didn't bring up The Dog Daddys challenge to the Zac!?!?!?

@samwell707

Жыл бұрын

Double D challenged zak too?

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

LOL that didn't happen until a few days after we filmed this.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@samwell707 lol yeah. Put up a LARGE sum of money too.

@protwiggzable

Жыл бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training lol! great videos and discussions tho - i am just a Malinois owner from Australia trying to do the best by my dog and every dog we come into contact with. (having a cool calm and collected Malinois means many people ask you for training advice)

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

@@protwiggzable keep up the good work. Let me know if you have any questions

ZG does not understand that Pavlov proved classical training does work. There are tools in my opinion that fall under Pavlov's theory of training.

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

Classical conditioning has nothing to do with positive or negative. OPERANT conditioning is the use of aversives and rewards to shape behavior.

@RiaWallace

8 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training Just asking. You do not believe they go hand in hand? Or one, classical leads or can lead to operant? One correcting the other?

@MiracleK9Training

8 ай бұрын

@@RiaWallace classical conditioning and operant conditioning go hand in hand but are two separate scientific concepts. I’m just saying that your use of it in your comment isn’t really as accurate to the point I believe you’re trying to make.

I have a new puppy. Zac, McCann dogs and I forget the young lady who video'd her training her new pup were great resources for me. I started hand feeding kibble via teaching her to recognize her name, sit, paw, down etc the morning after we brought our pup home. I did this routine of 10 minute training 3 times a day. My experience has been amazing. She is getting brain stimulation that keeps her calm during the day etc. I work from home and have this benefit. Not all have this kind of time. I'm not against shock collars. Most people have said after 1 x the dogs stop with the noise alone not even escalating to shock feature. I think this subject should be to each his own. Do what works for you. I don't believe people who use the collars are abusing their animals. They love their pets as much as those who don't use shock collars. Just like some believe in spanking children and others don't. As for me, I am grateful for these folks sharing their knowledge as it has made me a better pet owner and I have a smart, happy moyen poodle. Starting to train frisbee catch this week. Man's best friend just wants love and brain & physical exercise. Oh, and a good bully stick or bone. Lol

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I agree completely! People should do what works for them with no judgement

@CharlieTheCaneCorso

Жыл бұрын

U only have to take one look at the man to see something isn't as it should be

He is completely arguing from authority in that first clip and a false authority at that its like people who study cows in a lab versus some old cow hand if I have a question about a cow I'm not going to the scientist

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I agree completely

I learned from Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Science is a B*tch, sometimes.

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂🙌🙌

Zak George is absolutely right, though. All of you use 98% positive reinforcement and behavior corrections without afflicting pain. You’re LITERALLY proving him right. You’re actually all on the same page. What Zak talks about is that you don’t need aversive. You just don’t need them. I have no issue with then if used to guide the dog. But if we don’t need extra tools why spend money on them and use them? Zak did take on a very reactive shepherd a while ago and he didn’t need to use any aversives to discourage, say, pulling. Zak emphasizes the relationship with the dog. He tries to become the main point of interest so that the dog OFFERS the behavior he wants. That way is longer and harder and more complicated but it results in a more powerful bond and more importantly a mentally healthier dog.

Have just re listened to Zak's response to Robert's question (1:04: ish) .... Have any veterinary behaviourists ever taken Zak up on his offer to discuss? Do you know?

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

I don't believe so that i'm aware of.

I think you may need to learn more about Robert before speaking... and I am pretty sure he meant abusively... people slip up. Perhaps you should have a podcast with Robert as he is a highly skilled trainer. And, as for behavioural vet, no they can just do an additional continuing educational course to get that title. This video of yours unfortunately has made me lose a lot of respect for you guys...

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Everything I said in this video is a criticism of his argument to zak. Not his abilities as a trainer. If he misspoke, the premise of his argument is still flawed in my opinion (which this is just that). I fundamentally disagree with how a lot of balanced trainers try to spin the use of the ecollar as “nice” or “nicer” than other balanced trainers while generally doing the same thing as everyone else. Sorry you didn’t like it but I stand behind everything discussed in this. As far as speaking with him. I’d be happy to. No hate against the guy as a person as a trainer!

Robert should have given the example of a new rescue dog trying to kill a cat in the home. I've done this with an e collar many times including my own. A moment correction to save my cats

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

I think that that is a much more concrete argument to stand on but still has holes.

He probably got a 💉 because he trusted the science 😢

@MiracleK9Training

Жыл бұрын

Lol

I hope Zack George doesn't have kids. I think he might believe what he's saying.

105 Videos left :D

@MiracleK9Training

10 ай бұрын

Haha have fun!

@catalink9

10 ай бұрын

@@MiracleK9Training we'll, I have to take a 9 months training course to be able to operate as a professional on Italy and it's all about R+Only so yeah, this will balance sh*t out.