I'm not sure why anyone would expect the genius behind "Alice in Wonderland" to be anything BUT odd.

@comments.are.turned.off...

2 жыл бұрын

Well said.

@steveneltringham1478

2 жыл бұрын

Are not the words blond and thought somewhat oxymoronic today?

@jayt9882

2 жыл бұрын

@@steveneltringham1478 And yet the comment would suggest otherwise...

@indian.patterns

2 жыл бұрын

True

@cheesecake4648

2 жыл бұрын

genius??

If Charles Dodgson was on the autism spectrum, his affinity for puzzles, and for children, is perfectly to be expected. The adult world would have been a bit of a struggle for him, but with children he could have indulged his natural abilities to see the absurd in societal norms. With children, he could have relaxed.

@mrunning10

3 ай бұрын

The modern world could use a few more Charles Dodgson's.

@SeqZZ

Ай бұрын

He could have been autistic and attracted to kids.

I think it's sooooo interesting how they justify the obvious. Only one person was blatantly honest. There are tons of things in the Victorian age they did to kids that were absolutely horrible. Some things don't need historical context, it's just wrong.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

Stop confusing Pedophilia with Perversion with Pederast with grooming with all the modern-day neurosis placed upon this Problem. Get educated and not just from the intercoursing KZread.

@offbeatblackgerl8360

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrunning10 I am educated on the subject. I know the difference. It's still gross. It's still wrong.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

@@offbeatblackgerl8360 So glad you dusted-off your Read-the-thoughts-of-Dead-People Time Machine and stole a peek inside Dodgson's head. Can I borrow it? I want to hear what I have to say for myself. He He Ha Ha OMG so sarcastically funny!

@offbeatblackgerl8360

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrunning10 Now, if you have something to refute my statement, I'd be happy to listen or look it over. But it better be pretty d*mn good. Also, Alice in Wonderland is a masterpiece. His personal shortcomings don't change that. I can separate the art from the artist.

@jennoury249

9 ай бұрын

AMEN! They’re denying something that was blatantly obvious.

Why would people say that Alice's stories are not for children? Both books are both for children and adults: for children - to develop their imagination and see something beyond, deeper down the surface of the pond of cognition and for adults - to exercise again the pleasure of a child's joy of discovering things despite the rigid boundaries of already conceived and seemingly systemised pieces of knowledge. Thank you so much for this documentary! I really enjoyed it!!!

@patriciajrs46

9 ай бұрын

I totally agree with you.

@cdes1776

7 ай бұрын

The literature that children read in school was very mature. What some kids read in high school now is closer to the old curriculums of yore.

"I think that's what pedophiles are interested in, is the apparent innocence of children." This guy got it on the dot

@junejunejuniejune

6 жыл бұрын

Koda Wolf he seemed to be the only person with sese in this doc! Everyone else seemes blinded by admiration.

@Bushdid119

6 жыл бұрын

He was the only one not in denial about Lewis Carroll’s pretty apparent pedophilia

@suzannemoogan9675

6 жыл бұрын

Koda Wolf You are totally right, I thought that before he said it, it is the innocence that they are drawn towards, the interviewer, Martha Kearney, ought to grow up, as she appears to be very reluctant to admit to what Dodgson really was, if she is a mother herself, she should be ashamed. It truly doesn't taken a Rocket Scientist to figure out why Carroll was so fascinated by young children.

@surlygirly1926

6 жыл бұрын

+Koda Wolf: Exactly. That particular commentator was spot on with everything he said.

@williamwells835

6 жыл бұрын

Koda Wolf, check out the ways of the Zoe tribe of the Amazon. Then, when you look in the mirror, you'll see who the real 'pervert' is.

I would have to say that Alice is not per se a rebel, but the embodiment of curiosity and imagination.

@VK-nr3uf

5 жыл бұрын

Or acting out which is characteristic of abuse.

@mindtheprivacy

5 жыл бұрын

Totally agreed.

@bjulianaleo3025

5 жыл бұрын

Or just a spoiled brat.

@euphoriarose201

4 жыл бұрын

No back then when girls would think for themselves or great ideas would be considered rebellious lol

@raylovelace8588

4 жыл бұрын

@@euphoriarose201 Still is today in some circles.

The fact that Alice grew up to name her son Carroll and deny the connection is very similar to when Lefroy named his daughter Jane and then denied it had anything to do with Austen and she was instead named after his mother-in-law. It's just to spare the feelings of the partner/spouse so they can believe their child wasn't named after a lost love their significant other still pines for.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

Keeeee-rice, of course there was a connection, we're just arguing here just what that connection was, the second son was named Leopold, a pallbearer for the beloved sister Edith!

@elainagilbert7663

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrunning10 It doesn't matter what the connection was. I just find it strange that she would deny her son's name had anything to do with Lewis Carroll. That's not exactly a common name that you can get away with using.

@c8Lorraine1

Жыл бұрын

@@elainagilbert7663 Carroll was a popular name during that period. My own family can trace the males with the name either as Christian name of middle name.

@elainagilbert7663

Жыл бұрын

@@c8Lorraine1 I understand that, but for her to deny any connection to naming her son Carroll after she had this fantastic childhood friendship with Lewis Carroll, doesn't make any sense.

@FuzzyKittenBoots

10 ай бұрын

@@elainagilbert7663 But Alice wouldn't even have known him as Lewis Carroll? And she named her son Caryl, not Carroll. That's like saying that someone who names their son Charles must be doing so because their favourite baby sitter as a child went on to become a famous singer under the stage name Carl *after* he stopped babysitting them.

I think the older sister situation checks out. It would have been very scandalous for her virtue to be in question at the time and considering he wasn't of the social rank that her mother approved of along with the letters that were written that created the narrative that he was too close to Alice, I think it's more than likely the case about the older sister. I think little Alice was a spunky little girl who he got much enjoyment out of just like many adults enjoy the wit and humor that children like that can bring.

@goldilox369

9 ай бұрын

I completely agree. It makes more sense.

@DrTarrandProfessorFether

7 ай бұрын

I agree also… even though the age of Consent was (in 1863) 12 (now 14) in UK… a 42 year old man requesting marriage to a 13 year old girl would turn heads.

@gumpydruckers7961

6 ай бұрын

​@DrTarrandProfessorFether yeah 2 years if a huge difference...

@sharonloder2110

6 ай бұрын

Carroll posed Alice as a child beggar/prostitute with her hand out, close to her body - like "you have to come closer - and pay coins in my cupped hand"; torn dress, nipple showing.

@KatieBellino

6 ай бұрын

Carroll was more like 30 when Lorena was 13. Still a huge gap, but more socially acceptable back then.@@DrTarrandProfessorFether

When the queen of England read the story of Alice in Wonderland, she found it so wonderful, that she told Dodgson to make sure and give her a copy of his next book. Dodgson complied, giving the queen a copy of a mathematics book !

@OnnaBlade

3 жыл бұрын

True

@hamishmacfleetwood5229

2 жыл бұрын

@@OnnaBlade no dodgeson wrote that the story is false.

@sandiehoward2762

2 жыл бұрын

The book and its creator was simply brilliant, it was the man himself what is is question here regarding his actions.

@everynewdayisablessing8509

2 жыл бұрын

Actually Carroll said this is untrue.

Yikes, do these people hear themselves? "Yes, he took naked pictures of little girls, yes he befriended little girls...but that was ok back then! And he was a father figure!" To anybody, it should at least comes off as odd, but it seems they are too blind with admiration. The other gentleman had it right, just because someone makes good art, does not mean they are a good person. And they actually do not show the full picture supposedly of Lorina Lindell...but yes, her lower bits were included! Its super creepy, especially her facial expressions. She looks hurt or scared. Not to mention theres a picture of Alice kissing him on the mouth. While they were explaining about his friendships with the girls, I just couldn't help but think he was grooming them.

@junejunejuniejune

6 жыл бұрын

Pamela La Roda 😣😣😣 oh my goodness! I hadn't even thought of that! Now that you mention it, it must be rife with that type of symbolism. Just a new level of disturbing!

@valeriegriner5644

6 жыл бұрын

All of the pictures look disturbing to me...pictures of the children, the author, and especially, the nude adolescent girl. Dark stuff...very dark.

@junejunejuniejune

6 жыл бұрын

Valerie Griner yes theres nothing innocent looking about it. In the uncropped picture, you can see she is developing and on the brink of puberty. Any suggestion that it is not of a pornographic nature, is blind. She looks victimized.

@axeliaa2148

6 жыл бұрын

junejunejuniejune Back then almost everyone looked serious or hurt in photographs its creepy.

@axeliaa2148

6 жыл бұрын

junejunejuniejune And the picture of Alice kissing him was actually a fake.

It was thrilling to see Carroll’s original handwritten text of the book given to Alice Liddell.

@martinphilip8998

10 ай бұрын

My father held a reading card at the British Museum. A guard with white cotton gloves turned pages for him as he read the manuscript. My father was a famous mathematician and this must have been on his bucket list, checked off a month before he died at age 45.

@patriciajrs46

9 ай бұрын

Yes, it was. I wish a photocopied replica could be made with all of his original illustrations intact. I would love to own such a replica.

@patriciajrs46

9 ай бұрын

​@@martinphilip8998Wow! What a memory. Quite cool.

@laurieg.5371

7 ай бұрын

She sold it eventually because she lost everything after the war

@iahelcathartesaura3887

5 ай бұрын

Yes I also had the autograph in a book of mine, from a pedophile I was involved with, who wound up in prison in a wheelchair because he had MS. Which is one way he managed to seem harmless and trustworthy as a babysitter for children! One of the seemingly nicest men I had ever known, or so I thought at the time. I was probably the last person he was involved with, I was barely a legal adult at the time. The comments he made about my body were horrible when I found out he had gone to prison decades later and I realized what he had actually been saying to me. He went on to abuse many children for decades before he got caught (and died in prison?) Yes so exciting and wonderful to have personal handwriting from such a type of person as that, isn't it. NOT Carroll was sick. You all are celebrating a sicko abuser, who used drugs and likely gave them to children.

I believe in our modern times it’s imperative that we start to normalize separating the art from the artist. Just because you like an author or a musician doesn’t mean you have to defend their terrible and very obvious misgivings.

@kendrickv4326

3 жыл бұрын

And the fact that people who can do bad things or are despicable can also have an amazing talent...

@untamedblossoms

11 ай бұрын

Hear, hear!!! I don’t like the story and don’t like the author. I can admit he had amazing talent. All can be true at once

@oobrocks

10 ай бұрын

I’m not sure he was a bad dude judged by the 19th century. I recommend we don’t judge people of the past

@untamedblossoms

10 ай бұрын

@@oobrocks clearly something happened to stop his visits to the children. And why shouldn’t we speculate? If he was a creep he was a creep

@oobrocks

10 ай бұрын

Speculation isn’t evidence

well, that was unexpected. Quote of the day "it's a problem when someone writes a great book but they are not a great person."

@Pantano63

4 жыл бұрын

I don't see any problem. Cancel culture is stupid.

@Wib0

4 жыл бұрын

I took it as a question. Like it seems to be a problem when a bad person writes a great book, no?

@sammyyuu2558

3 жыл бұрын

I think is you can always like the book and you can dislike the author

@amaxamon

3 жыл бұрын

NO EVIDENCE against Lewis Carroll!!!! ZERO! He appears to have been a somewhat private and awkward but caring person, plenty of of his students & friends remembered him fondly.

@megancrager4397

3 жыл бұрын

@@amaxamon being remembered fondly also doesn't make him innocent. I haven't labeled him either way because I agree, there's not enough evidence

I always found these facts interesting... There are at least three direct links to [Alice] Liddell in the two books. First, he set them on 4 May (Liddell's birthday) and 4 November (her "half-birthday"), and in Through the Looking-Glass the fictional Alice declares that her age is "seven and a half exactly", the same as Liddell on that date. Second, he dedicated them "to Alice Pleasance Liddell". Third, there is an acrostic poem at the end of Through the Looking-Glass. Reading downward, taking the first letter of each line, spells out Liddell's full name. The poem has no title in Through the Looking-Glass, but is usually referred to by its first line, "A Boat Beneath a Sunny Sky". A boat beneath a sunny sky, Lingering onward dreamily In an evening of July- Children three that nestle near, Eager eye and willing ear, Pleased a simple tale to hear- Long has paled that sunny sky: Echoes fade and memories die. Autumn frosts have slain July. Still she haunts me, phantomwise, Alice moving under skies Never seen by waking eyes. Children yet, the tale to hear, Eager eye and willing ear, Lovingly shall nestle near. In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die: Ever drifting down the stream- Lingering in the golden gleam- Life, what is it but a dream? In addition, all of those who participated in the Thames boating expedition where the story was originally told (Carroll, the Reverend Duckworth and the three Liddell sisters) appear in the chapter "A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale" - but only if Alice Liddell is represented by Alice herself.

One of his math book called "pillow problems" suggests his troubled thoughts and starts with an explanation about how it's good to have some wholesome logic/math puzzles to preoccupy one's mind while trying to fall asleep: "There are skeptical thoughts, which seem for the moment to uproot the firmest faith; there are blasphemous thoughts, which dart unbidden into the most reverent souls; there are unholy thoughts, which torture, with their hateful presence, the fancy that would fain be pure. Against all these some real mental work is a most helpful ally."

Familial dynamics in L C childhood are a mystery in that we only know about his stories and above board activities. Crossing the adult to child boundry is catastrophic. That Laurina was NOT HAPPY being exposed before an adult male is obvious in her posture and expression. It doesnt matter in any era what is considered "acceptable" or not, children KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between play and passion.

@lynnodonnell4764

5 ай бұрын

As a child who experienced my first sexual molestation at age 4 I'm in agreement that children can sense the intent of an adult. I wud find myself squirming on the inside w discomfort w certain adults and absolute comfort w others. I think Caroll was a repressed pedophile. 12 was age of consent back then ?!... I'm absolutely cringing and I'm going on 70

My parents named me after Alice in Wonderland, we're Russian. It's an incredibly popular book the world over. Very interesting to learn more about the man behind it.

Alice in Wonderland is certainly an amazing piece of literature. It strikes me that it not only represents how a precocious child might view and react to the world of adults, but it's also something quite personal to Carroll. It seems, to my mind at least, that it represents his desire to flaunt the rules, coupled with the tacit admission that if their were no rules, everything and everybody would be mad. It may be that it's Carroll's internal struggle to conform; he shows some of the same sense of a world gone a little off that one can see in Swift's works. It's fascinating that in both works, the most biting logic and satire are perpetrated by some of the strangest characters - as if only through a little madness can we stand outside the norms and see them in all their ridiculousness. We see here how, in the Victorian era, people are clearly squirming in their 'proper' places. It produces some of most ingeniously bonkers ideas. There is clearly the notion of having a little fun, a little naughtiness, is essential to one's sanity; while at the same time giving every outward appearance of conformity. tavi.

@dominicgodfrey8015

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@violet9853

2 жыл бұрын

very well said 🙂

@Mark-Mcloud

2 жыл бұрын

The book is certainly very different from anything else I do wonder if it had not been for Alice encouraging him to write it if he ever would have done so

@Miguel_and_The_Microbes

10 ай бұрын

Flaunt??😂

@richarddeese1991

10 ай бұрын

@jeanmarshfan Yes, you got me. Flout is the correct term. Now, back to what I was saying... tavi.

The British writers, and German too, are the ones who influenced my youth. I grew up in The Netherlands, Spain and Germany where I still live. Of course Jules Verne, Mark Twain, The Brothers Grimm and their books made my day every single time. Alice in Wonderland was one of those classics I will never forget.

@coreyham3753

2 жыл бұрын

Classics of the literary world.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

Childhood found and never lost! Amen.

@rafedidomenico

10 ай бұрын

But Mark Twain was American

@_Diana_S

8 ай бұрын

@@rafedidomenico So? Mark Twain was very popular all over the world, take it from the former Soviet Union child ;). As well as Jack London, H. Longfellow, Fenimore Cooper, O.Henry, and many other American writers. "Tom Sawyer" was the first "big" book i read and it kick-started my entire reading "career".

@peterc4082

3 ай бұрын

No influence by Mein Kampf? Lots of Germans and some Dutch liked that book and that artist too. Now everyone's in denial.

The lock of hair is not only a sign of love... Was also a way of remember someone loved but not only in a romantic way... A cousin... A friend... A mother... A father... A little friend... Etc...

@saidie1019

2 жыл бұрын

Still weird

@lasinnombre9190

2 жыл бұрын

@@saidie1019 Of course

@chainsherlock6268

2 жыл бұрын

Simon Bolivar’s hair was already on the market when he was still alive. That set the gold standard; his wicked curls and fire moustache. That’s how you measure greatness.

@HermicraftAddict

Жыл бұрын

There was hair wreaths made of dead loved ones hair for memories. It's a special thing.

@lasinnombre9190

Жыл бұрын

@@HermicraftAddict I love that custom!! It's just so special!!

@33:10 / 33:22 Red Queen confirmed. *The Queen of Hearts,* the supposed villain of the story that *barks orders* at Alice, controls wonderland, and appears as threatening / menacing *is most likely Alice's mother.* This is how Carroll viewed her & her interactions with her daughter.

@herewegokids7

4 жыл бұрын

Yes and that she kept him and Alice apart

@DeniseEggertwaterlily

4 жыл бұрын

If The Queen of Hearts was Alice's mother, Charles Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll, was the Mad Hatter.

@bodhiheeren

3 жыл бұрын

That is completely pseudo psychology

@thatsickkidjaz1749

3 жыл бұрын

@@DeniseEggertwaterlily that’s true, he tries to get her to stay but the queen won’t let her, the queen is the mother and the mad hatter is Lewis.

@Wopenga

2 жыл бұрын

In the same way Mozart wrote his mother-in-law as the Queen of the Night, I imagine.

That look in the eyes of the pubescent nude girl says more than the whole docu or all the comments. Whoever took that pic was not a good person. That is an embarrassed/hurt person, and whoever is behind the camera doesn't care, their needs, if only to have the pic, superseding empathy.

@leebee5361

4 жыл бұрын

I totally agree!.. But, tell me (just out of interest).. Are you a REAL pork frog??

@porkfrog2785

4 жыл бұрын

@@leebee5361 a pork frog is a piece of pig rind with legs carved into it to dress up a hook on a fishing lure...perfect name for a troll...but I never troll

@cat_terrell

3 жыл бұрын

Totally!💯

@porkfrog2785

3 жыл бұрын

@Quinn Murph really? what do YOU see in her eyes? In order to know if someone is any good at anything, you have to be good at it yourself...so school me... **cue the crickets**

@happymate8943

3 жыл бұрын

@generic generic When they said "it was a different time" I dont think they were trying to simplify or excuse this stuff. It actually was a very different time, because there was popular art thing that focused on childhood innocence. A lot of people these same pictures and put on postcards. Lewis even asked permission from their parents, and I think they agree with this stuff. Now I'm not saying Lewis wasn't a nonce, theres still some stuff that could indicate it like the family kicking him out, I'm just giving my reasons why the people in video say "it was a different time"

I honestly believe that he had a special affinity with children, especially Alice. I think Alice encompassed a child that Lewis had wished to be in his own childhood. Even the drawing of a girl found in his old house looks very much like his drawings of Alice in his handwritten books.

In a way (and I say this very loosely) Carroll wasn't completely unlike Michael Jackson. A renowned artist whose relationship with children was obsessive enough to be concerning. Of course we'll never really know, but it feels like there are some similarities there.

@annnee6818

7 ай бұрын

Since no one can know no ones gonna step out and call it what it is. Iffy

@carlycrays2831

6 ай бұрын

I think people just don't want to be uncomfortable. The fact is, separating the artist completely from the art is lazy and just a way to have your cake and eat it too.

@blue1584

5 ай бұрын

@@carlycrays2831 It’s not “lazy”, it’s a natural consequence of time. Art often outlives and outgrows the artist.

@carlycrays2831

5 ай бұрын

@@blue1584 But just ignoring who and what the artist was keeps you from fully understanding the piece.

@blue1584

5 ай бұрын

@@carlycrays2831 Not necessarily, many believe that what makes art special is that it has room for multiple interpretations (as opposed to something purely objective like math or science which leaves no room for personal interpretation)

the most interesting part of this is those missing pages...

@japonaliya

5 жыл бұрын

Doing research on Carroll for over 30 years and writing an article for the LCS journal... I know what what was in the missing material in his diaries, and also a totally new theory of why LC was attracted to little girls (hint: he was NOT a pedophile)

@jaydegrundy4956

5 жыл бұрын

japonaliya well you might as well tell us what was in those missing pages and proof

@japonaliya

5 жыл бұрын

@@jaydegrundy4956 And ruin the "scoop" info in my article? Just to give a hint, the missing page has to do with Dodgson and the Dean, not the children. Also one of the reasons for the falling out with the Liddells

@cecesafont4763

5 жыл бұрын

japonaliya japonaliya ok, number 1 he is not a pedophile because there is not records he have actually sexually abuse any of the child’s! People this days just drop that word out like is a joke, is a very serious statement. Number 2 I just think that being friend with a child is just impossible, for me I see it as talking with a human from another planet, u don’t have conversations in common we can’t do the same things that u will do with a friend of ur own age etc etc is just unreal.. and that leads me to number 3 in my opinion he wasn’t a pedophile but he had pedophile thoughts that he repressed, bare in mine pedophiles are mentally ill people so u can’t blame or judge someone for being ill, what was his best option? To repress himself, ur not a criminal or pedophile if u haven’t committed a crime! Anyway.. I really want to slap that woman who removed those pages away heheh whyyyy!!!! So annoying thing to do. And the sister writing that letter to Alice, she was hiding something! Just spit out the true lol anyway.. if you do know what’s going on once u finish your article and u can talk about it please come back here and give us a link or something of your work so we can finally find out what happened. I will really appreciate that. We have to admit Alice in wonderland is a great history regardless of his own personal issues. He knows how to write a book!

@jaydegrundy4956

5 жыл бұрын

japonaliya I don’t know. Nor do you. I write u might be right !! That my opinion anyway. Ur entitled to urs.

The narrator lady is creepily fascinated with it .

@SafetySpooon

4 жыл бұрын

She seems more desperate to clear him, & is in denial.

@annaturquoise7114

4 жыл бұрын

You haven’t met people who are obsessed w Luis carol. There are weirder ladies and men plus They all sound creepily fascinated if you don’t share their fascination))

@AL-eu8ro

3 жыл бұрын

she doesn’t seemed disturbed at all. playing along as if it’s only normal and she’s just telling what happened. i remember listening to this when i was 13 and thinking “well he’s very socially awkward and childish so i guess it could be excused” because of the way she was telling it

@Flitalidapouet

3 жыл бұрын

Yep and it made me more uncomfortable that the real guy. She looks in total aw and admiration .... very creepy.

@Jennifahh

3 жыл бұрын

who wouldnt?!!

I have some background knowledge on this documentary. The BBC was forced to apologise for lying in it, because they misled the experts in the programme by pretending they'd unearthed the picture too late to show it to them. (you can google the details). In fact this picture is French and had been on the internet since about 2000, and is a well known to experts. The museum that owns the picture doesn't claim it is of Lorina or by Carroll, and you notice they did not defend it as genuine. In fact the photo was bought decades ago from a Parisian dealer in 19th century medical photographs, (which were mostly taken of poor people with various diseases and deformities) and if you look at the full image, which the BBC didn't show in the film, you will see the subject is standing awkwardly and appears lopsided. This whole "controversy" was manufactured, because the programme had to last an hour and they didn't have any material better than what was in the rest of the programme - such as people at village fetes, Martha Kearney's school play, little girls dressed as Alice & Lewis Carroll's utterly dull life as a clergyman and maths tutor.

@leew1598

3 жыл бұрын

How do you know it's a French medical photograph? Do you have a source you can share? If the girl had some medical complaint, it still doesn't explain why she's had to pose naked for the photograph.

@SuperVlerik

9 ай бұрын

@@leew1598 In that era, nude medical images were pretty normal.

@Angelica-ps4cs

6 ай бұрын

They only had to apologize because they didn't tell the academics that they would be discussing pedophilia claims, not because the image is fake.

@peterc4082

3 ай бұрын

@@SuperVlerik Nude medical images of patients of all ages are still common in medial textbooks. Not everyone who studies medicine is a pervert.

I started reading a chapter of this book to my daughter aged 6 each night when I put her to bed_ she loved it and so did I again.. she has never told me but at 33 she called her second daughter Alice. ❤️

@Pugetwitch

10 ай бұрын

so you discovering this video that this man is a pedophilic monster who is grooming a 4-year-old toddler, and you hear these enablers in the documentary describe the toddler as impertinent and how she puffs the hair out of her forehead or whatever that woman was saying, basically making the 4-year-old sound like a precocious teen. That's disgusting. The overtones are inappropriate. And for you to immediately talk about your own child and how much she loves it is very creepy.

@carolking6355

9 ай бұрын

I don’t believe what these people are speculating. He came from family , with heaps of younger sisters. I think he was shy and related to children , feeling comfortable with them. Hi s main interests were photography, writing or telling wonderful stories. What men friends would have cared about that. I think it is evil to speak badly of the dead. HIs lovely ancestors spoke beautifully. No one in his lifetime complained . Just an ambitious mother who was named the Kingfisher. We live in a different era. I am in my 80s and read the book that was read to me. I did my degree in Literature as well as philosophy which helps me to think. I don’t think much of you.

@ladeybugg1

9 ай бұрын

@@carolking6355well said.

@AliciaGuitar

9 ай бұрын

My boss used to call me "Alicia en país de las maravillas" (Alice in wonderland in spanish). Not many others realize my name's connection but it was always my favorite story. I particularly like the tv movie from 1985 that starred Natalie Gregory. Its here on YT.

If I had a dollar for every time I hear some historian or whatever refer to obviously alarming behaviour as "well it was a different time"...

@ericanderson4801

4 жыл бұрын

Try mentioning Muhammad's predilection for little girls and see what happens. (You'll get kicked off Facebook. I know that for certain.)

@dasa1974

4 жыл бұрын

You can’t judge people hundreds of years ago with the standards of today.

@christineshah7330

4 жыл бұрын

🙄 They aren't necessarily saying it was the right thing, only that we have to take into account the cultural norms of the time. Those norms determine so much of what every person does, nothing about that is different now. Undoubtedly you and I do something people will regard as beyond the pale 200 years from now, but we are trying to be good people. If we are going to talk about people in history we need to attempt objectivity, if only for coming to a understanding of their world and their reasons. It is so much more complex than, "I wouldn't do that in 2019, so obviously back then they should have seen it just like I do." That's rather irrational reasoning.

@bluecollarlit

4 жыл бұрын

Harvey weinstein tried that excuse, too.

@christineshah7330

4 жыл бұрын

@@bluecollarlit Weinstein isn't even using that excuse logically, considering that his behavior was beyond the pale when he was doing it, even if he didn't think so.

I was born in 1952 and I can remember that it was considered perfectly okay to take pictures of naked children, and also before puberty it was considered okay to have older men friends with children, whereas as soon as one started to 'develop' all that was then abruptly cut of, and it was made very clear that now your were no longer a little girl and different standards of behaviour were now required.

@HeavenlyValo

5 жыл бұрын

Okay but did you see that last photo? She had developed breasts. At no point in time is this not considered inappropriate.

@Inkdraft

5 жыл бұрын

Caroline Barnes: Yes, and when we were little and went to the beach we played in the water with just a pair of shorts on, no tops and when it came time to go home your mum changed your wet shorts for dry ones right on the beach. No one cared.

@japonaliya

5 жыл бұрын

@@HeavenlyValo That photo was not taken by Carroll, nor is it of Lorina Liddell. It was a hoax that many fell for, just like the Photoshopped picture of Alice kissing him, a combo of two different photos.

@everythingviral972

5 жыл бұрын

@@japonaliya Is this not the same doc I am thinking of (yet to watch it, came here after seeing a 10 minute section of another one)?. They forensically examine his photo of her and determine it was in fact her. Two different experts, one used in court cases, conclude the picture is of her.

@japonaliya

5 жыл бұрын

@@everythingviral972 The "experts" were only able to conclude that the photographic process was the same as Carroll, but this can be faked. Another historian and photographer in the 70s passed off nude photos taken by Carroll and the "experts" agreed until he came clean and said he made them. The experts did not use classic forensics to determine if the girl was Lorina by computer face recognition, and Carroll had already stopped taking photos of the Liddell children when Lorina was a teen. Also, only 30 nudes taken out of 3000 photos, non with genitalia exposed, all modeled after famous paintings, and never did he take photos, nude or otherwise without permission!!

So, unlike young Alice Lorina hated having her photo taken, I wonder why.....

@Elizabarbie12

3 жыл бұрын

Oh wow- I just thought about it now that you pointed out-

@japonaliya

2 жыл бұрын

The 3 Liddell children were photographed quite often together by Dodgson. He did photograph Alice alone, but he also photographed Lorina alone, even Lorina's doll. Does this mean he was a dollophile?

@gregb6469

2 жыл бұрын

I don't like having my photo taken.

@japonaliya

2 жыл бұрын

@@gregb6469 So, what's your stupid point??

@gregb6469

2 жыл бұрын

@@japonaliya -- That reluctance to be photographed does not mean that the photographer has been abusing the reluctant model.

Alice is NOT the first female lead in children's literature, contrary to what Martha Kearney says at 21:44: Before its first edition was published in 1865, in France the Comtesse de Ségur published Les Malheurs de Sophie, in 1858, seven years earlier, the first of a trilogy (followed by Les Petites Filles Modèles and Les Vacances) and a huge success to this day.

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

Yah, well, Martha is from England and the BBC doesn't give much credit to France for anything.

@belamoure

10 ай бұрын

@@mrunning10 As a child I was fortunate being born French Canadian to have read both books. Alice's adventures were fascinating - the cake that makes you grow a giant or become little etc. The Comtesse proudly proclaimed being born Rostopchine and would use in her tales the whip to punish children found undisciplined or bad. Never Lewis Carrol would have gone to that extremity with dear Alice! I read last year a biography written by his nephew he was also a great mathematician. A complex character but very creative and in a way like Christian Andersen -endearing. Nowadays he would have been thrown in jai, listed sued, dismissed from Oxford, etc. We are so prompt to judge, label, condemn and so slow to forgive and forget.

@peterc4082

3 ай бұрын

Given the British always make themselves out to be exceptional, it's not amazing they would push the Anglo chauvinism. Elitist and chauvinist society of stuck of snobs. Perfidious Albion.

It's like every ad was timed to start in the middle of each segment's most dramatic statement.

@davihar

4 жыл бұрын

far too many ads. I won't be watching this channel again

@nilsnyman6767

4 жыл бұрын

I unsubscribed from this channel last week for that very reason

@Chloe-ge7vv

3 жыл бұрын

Adblock is yall's friend ;)

This is a brilliant look at the life of Lewis Carroll, and the depth of inquiry is to be applauded. Whether Carroll ever acted on his obvious attraction to children will likely never be known for a certainty. The sheer volume of children who have met with inappropriate touch or behaviour from adults is far broader than we like to think. It would seem that Carroll was rather stunted in his social maturity, and found himself more at ease with children than with his peers. The power of his writing can be appreciated for itself regardless of the flaws his character may have displayed. The very concept of twelve being the age of consent is appalling to the modern mind, but it truly was a very different time. This documentary has given me much to ponder. Thank you for uploading this kind of quality programming. 🇨🇦

@tamarrajames3590

6 жыл бұрын

Alex you could easily be right, I don't think he perceived anything unacceptable in his friendships.

@LadyCoyKoi

6 жыл бұрын

Back then pedophilia was accepted or at least overlooked. :/ Not saying it is good or what-have-you, but older men always married younger women or even married teens during Victorian times. There were known as child brides, which men would buy virgin girls as young as 9-11 years of age. There was still a belief that virgins and the purer the soul the better could cure all sorts of illnesses, particularly VDs, syphilis and gonorrhea, etc. Even to this day child brides exist. O_O

@BigBadassR

6 жыл бұрын

The concept of twelve being the age of consent was appalling to the mind of the past as well, don't kid yourself. The way the laws are fashioned in a society are in no way indicative of how the average person in that society thinks. If that was true, child molesters in America wouldn't get shorter sentences then pot dealers.

@saskoilersfan

6 жыл бұрын

A raven is like a writing desk be cause they both have caws for thoughts.

@kayem3824

6 жыл бұрын

Is it really OK for children to read? Doesn't it convey subliminal messages?

Well atleast there's two fellow authors who had the conviction to unabashedly call a spade a spade. props to them.

@levity90

9 ай бұрын

Yeah I was like THANK YOU when the guy called him a repressed pedophile. I'm not entirely unconvinced that the other experts trying to excuse Carroll's behavior aren't pedos too.

@moniquerosa3033

3 ай бұрын

​@levity90 I was under the impression, too... odd

This was an absolutely first-rate documentary, a really brilliant piece of work.

"It's a problem when someone writes a great book and they're not a great person." quote time - 44:06 from documentary

@armyyyyyyyyyyyy

5 жыл бұрын

CornbreadWisdom who's that guy? He's handsome

@everythingviral972

5 жыл бұрын

@SURREY CROSSING What money did the great grand daughter get? DId she write a book about the pedophile author? It's very clear he was a pedophile. Carrying toys and puzzles in his pockets. "hey little girl, would you like some candy?". I mean c'mon. It all fits together. He wrote a letter to a 10 year old girls saying in so many words that it was most unfortunate that he couldn't kiss her, and had to settle for kissing the lock of hair she had given him. What kind of creep behaves like that? A pedophile. He was very clearly grooming the children.

@ten10strips85

4 жыл бұрын

That's ridiculous. One has nothing to do with the other.

@timetravellerregisteredtra850

4 жыл бұрын

well of course. the book wasn't written by a non-white so it is naturally evil as is the white man who wrote it.

@robkunkel8833

4 жыл бұрын

And who is that expert? An actor.

Either LSD or mushroom trip. He even has Alice eating mushrooms in the dream. Phenomenal story.

@daddygirlchanelhines4600

4 жыл бұрын

The story is exactly what he did with her.. "They lived at the bottom of the well." Sound's like an threat

@teamseshforever7955

3 жыл бұрын

its a threat yeah and the story exists so that when people asked what they were doing they just tell them that crazy story even tho he was sexually abusing them

When I was little and my sister in the 1960’s, my Australian parents took lots of nude photographs of us scampering about the yard. Today, if they were sent to a lab for processing, I bet a child protective services would pay a Welfare Visit!!!

@sandradancetovic2150

7 ай бұрын

But those photos still weren't taken by some weird family friend, cousin or a random dude. That's the difference.

Lmaoooo say what happen why was he exiled a man hanging with 3 kids everyday and all of a sudden he is exiled wtf you think happened

As I child I felt this book was weird and seemed like someone's fantasy? For fantasy that I could understand and be transported to a place of eventual hope...The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was the book that gave me solace and an appetite for reading...thank you C.S Lewis!!

@meman6964

11 ай бұрын

I thought author was high or on LSD

@patriciajrs46

9 ай бұрын

​@@meman6964Laudnum, morphine, and other opiates, some of the Oriental variety were well in use in those eras. I think strange imaginings would have taken place often.

@anneshirley9560

8 ай бұрын

I agree. I movie and book creeped me out as a kid. I do love C.S. Lewis as well!

@mrsmrlattewcoconut9901

7 ай бұрын

I never liked the book, finding the story’s elements creepy. 25 minutes into the documentary and I’ve not been persuaded otherwise, contrary to the fanboys & girls swooning narratives.

@janie3117

5 ай бұрын

@@mrsmrlattewcoconut9901, thank you! Someone with common sense!

The presenter wears gloves just to look at a negative...then goes on touching originals, like copper plates, with bare hands...

@Bakerygo

4 жыл бұрын

copper plates can not be damaged by bare hands, negatives can be damaged.

@MrMagnusFogg

4 жыл бұрын

Bakerygo ...oh, I didn’t know that...just thought it would stain them with no need...thanks for the info !...

@kaleahcollins4567

3 жыл бұрын

😳🤔😂😂😂😂😂😂

" Now at the very end of our long list I introduce you to two books of which I think you must have already tasted: Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland, and the eighth is Alice Through the Looking Glass. Both are nonserious, that’s why I love them. Both are written for children, that’s why I immensely respect them. Both are full of beauty, grandeur, mystery and small parables which can be understood on many many levels. I have always loved one parable, for example.... Alice comes to the King - or perhaps it was the Queen, it does not matter - and the King asks Alice, “Did you meet my messenger coming towards me on the way?” Alice says, “I met nobody, sir.” The King then says, “Then he must have reached here by now.” Alice could not believe her ears, but just out of respect, amazed, Alice still remained silent, quite an English lady. Alice must have been a perfect English lady. Out of formality she did not even giggle. She had said that she had met nobody, and the King thinks that she had met somebody called Nobody. My God, he thinks that Nobody is a man, that Nobody is somebody...! Again Alice says, “Sir, did I not tell you that I met nobody? Nobody is nobody!” The King laughed and said, “Yes, of course nobody is nobody, but why has he not arrived yet?” Such beautiful small parables in both the books, Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass. And the most strange fact to remember is that Lewis Carroll was not the real name...because he was a mathematician and a schoolmaster; hence he used a pseudo-name. But what a calamity, the pseudonym has become a reality to the whole world and the real man is completely forgotten. It is strange that a mathematician and schoolmaster could write such beautiful books. You will wonder why I am including them. I am including them because I want to say to the world that to me, Jean-Paul Sartre’s Being and Nothingness and Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland are all the same. It does not matter. In fact, if I have to choose between the two I will choose Alice in Wonderland and throw Being and Nothingness in the ocean, so far away in the Pacific that nobody will find it again. To me these two small books have great spiritual value. Yes, I’m not joking...I mean it."

I remember catching this documentary completely randomly one night in my college years and being enthralled. It's stuck with me and is arguably my favourite documentary. Mirkwood is right though there's a lot of sugarcoating going on here but I think it's also obvious that they don't hide from the possibility that Dodgson was a pedophile. We'll unfortunately never know for certain, but it's not looking good, especially with those pictures of Alice and her sisters and him, you know, being a priest.

@gregb6469

2 жыл бұрын

Dodgson was not a priest, he was a university don. But even if he was a preist, he wouold have been a Anglican, which allows, even encourages, clergy to marry.

@calumsanderson6741

2 жыл бұрын

@@gregb6469 Even then, you can't make a man marry a woman when he doesn't like women. So your hair splitting doesn't really change anything.

@Pugetwitch

10 ай бұрын

That's f****** insane how different of an experience that I have from you, lol. wow. I feel the exact opposite. just watching the first 10 minutes made me physically sick. I'm shaking still and I had to turn it off. I went to the comments thinking I'd find camaraderie among survivors but all I'm finding are pedophiles and their flying monkeys who are defending this sicko, And then a few semi objective people, but I don't see how people can forget this guy was a total pervert. The fact that the narrator keeps referring to it as a relationship made me feel physically sick. that is so f****** wrong. I'm a CSA survivor and I've also worked with domestic violence and trauma patients for over a decade, we would never ever ever use that phrasing. I would let one of my direct reports go if I heard them speaking with one of their clients using that phrase "a relationship"( instead of referring to it as abuse) during a session.

@quickchris10

7 ай бұрын

Not a pedo; you're paranoid and seeing pedos everywhere. Why would Alice name her son after him, if a pedo, I wonder. I have beloved uncles and family friends who treated me great. They were dear friends who recognized my intelligence and treated me as if I were an adult friend, conversing with me frankly. We cannot deny children the chance to have such mentors by being schizo about great potential friendships between adults and children.@@Pugetwitch

@ellisnelson6128

4 ай бұрын

@@gregb6469 He was an Anglican deacon. He did give sermons on occasion. He earned his living teaching math at Christ Church which was an Anglican institution. His teaching position as a don, living in quarters required him to remain single. Not the practice today but it was in his time. He could not have married and stayed at college.

0:55 little girl just tells it straight up

Will Self nailed the mystique of Carroll. Great Art isn't necessarily created by great people. Sage observation by another great writer.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

Great Art is Pain.

I was born in the 1950s. A favorite of parents was to pose naked children on bearskin rugs or fleece blankets and photograph them in profile. It was no big deal and some even framed them and hung them on the wall. Things changed sometime in the 60s

@peterc4082

3 ай бұрын

Continental Europeans still do that.

I wonder what the two sisters of Alice thought about her youngest sister getting such a gift while they did not.

@tarafitch5690

2 жыл бұрын

I’m so glad you said that, I wondered that too!

@MrParkerman6

2 жыл бұрын

A did Knot? 🎀 What a terrible thing to get tangled up in!!!! 😲

@lostpony4885

2 жыл бұрын

Might be jelly might be knot

@velvet_victor

2 жыл бұрын

Well, there are multiple references to them in the book. In a sort of way, it was their gift as well. Alice just shared the main character’s name.

@hamishmacfleetwood5229

2 жыл бұрын

@@velvet_victor and plus both are upper class and both wear the same shoes.

Whether one judges Dodson by today's standards or not, one must see that he was obsessed with Alice. Her photos are haunting. As for the photo of Lorena, the implications are clear. Consenting age of 12 (which is a bit misleading having to do with parental marriage arrangements) or not, Mrs. Little would likely taken a dim view of the relationship if the taking of the photo (or rumor of such) were known or suspected.

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

We are obsessed about Alice, not Dodgson, he simply was in love.

Bizarre views in the 19th century. They used to photograph their dead relatives and felt comfortable with that. Still can't believe that.

@remiem-iw7uk

6 жыл бұрын

Folks still photo dead relatives today.

@LouBrikanT

6 жыл бұрын

I came late to this posting, but probably you don't know than in Puerto Rico there's a funeral home where they dress the corpses in costumes and put them in poses for everyone to see. It's creepy and bizarre, but they love it. Even with their eyes open, they consider that respectful.

@softiebbybunny2317

6 жыл бұрын

Jason Lawrence They did that back than because taking pictures were expensive. If a child died back than taking a picture of them was something to remember them by. I don't think they liked it but it was to have something left of someone they didn't know too long. People died very easily back than.

@dontbefatuousjeffrey2494

5 жыл бұрын

There was a very sentimentalist culture in the late 19th century - children, romance and death were all viewed through a highly sentimentalist lens and almost religiously venerated. The much higher risks faced in life (extreme poverty; exposure to industrial risk and pollution; wars; disease; maternal and infant mortality risks etc.) help explain the way Victorians viewed innocence, love and mortality.

@Inkdraft

5 жыл бұрын

Jason Lawrence: People still have photos of their deceased relatives in this day and age: when someone loses a child at birth the hospital photographs the child and those photos are the only things that those grieving parents, grandparents, and siblings have to remember that little one by.

The greatness and uniqueness of Alice In Wonderland lies in its masterly and consummate rendering of childhood innocence. Alice finds herself in a fantastic land with fantastic events and fantastic people talking in a fantastic and illogical way, but Alice deals with all that as if they were natural. In brief, the story reflects the wonderful nature of childhood, when the most ordinary things in life are extraordinary in the eyes of a child. We can't imagine what a child feels when he/she plays with a toy, observes an ant or builds a sand castle on the beach. This lost innocence is maybe the chief thing that makes our sadness and sorrow later when grown up. It's also what the story of Peter Pan hints to;he wishes to stay a child and didn't want to grow up. Also the same idea contained in J K Rawlings's The Yearling, where the boy don't want to grow and is still attached to his fawn. His father urged him to kill it, a symbol of having the courage "to kill" childhood and accept adulthood(maybe for a social purpose, besides being inevitable).

@peterc4082

3 ай бұрын

I really call BS on this. The stories are ordinary. It's just Brits hyping up their British exceptionalism. Anglo chauvinism.

I'm surprised they don't mention the poem which spells out Alice's full name at the start of each line

@sweetnesslight5656

4 жыл бұрын

What poem? Thanks

@augustzagone9357

4 жыл бұрын

@@sweetnesslight5656 a Boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

@sweetnesslight5656

4 жыл бұрын

@@augustzagone9357 think he was slightly obsessed with her!

@aspiknf

2 жыл бұрын

@@sweetnesslight5656 Slightly? he was too obsessed with her, it's very weird.

@sweetnesslight5656

2 жыл бұрын

@@aspiknf yes

The great grand daughter actually resembles Alice a lot

@odoggow8157

4 жыл бұрын

but she actually doesn't

@men_del12

3 жыл бұрын

Similary? Perhaps. They may alike twin, shape as a dual in doubleness with different district of distinct of inner embodiement.

I always saw this story as a nightmare

@karriebelle49

6 жыл бұрын

Pretty Mommy me too

@mizfrenchtwist

6 жыл бұрын

especially the earlier illustrations.............

@angelsd8771

6 жыл бұрын

Pretty Mommy or horrid acid trip ajd mk ultra given to the girl hence the storyline which is reality of the girls life

@larapalma3744

6 жыл бұрын

It is

@K.Angelina

6 жыл бұрын

I always saw the wizard of oz as one, interesting

Commenting on the characters drawn by Lewis Carroll as being mournful one must remember that they were all lifetime prisoners of a Wonderland that was ruled by a capricious and insane Queen. The only creature in Wonderland that could see that things were so topsy-turvy was Alice. Was the Red Queen actually Victoria with all her eccentricities? Were all the creatures that Alice encounters caricatures of prominent personalities of Victorian society? Just a Wonder to me.

We cannot apply our current standards to a different time, place and culture. Just wait till we are judged over 120 years ago.

I think the caricature of the red queen looked like the Liddle's Mother ….. and it amazed me that he had a speech impediment and was a teacher and a story teller..... he wrote in a diary every day and yet we feel like much may have been unsaid ….. photography was his outlet / possibly for things he couldn't even write down to himself

They keep talking about him with "young children" but it was only little girls, wasn't it?

@odoggow8157

4 жыл бұрын

and they come under the classification of young children, he was a photographer when the equipment was unaffordable only the wealthy could afford portraits he was making money off of allsorts of things so his pics of boys didn't draw controversy then or now so are irrelevant

@japonaliya

4 жыл бұрын

Mostly, but Carroll had boy child friends too. His first child friend was Hallam Tennyson, Alfred's son. Before he befriended Alice and her sisters, he was friends with Harry Liddell, Alice's brother. However, upper class boys we're sent to prestigious boarding schools around 12. Carroll was too, so he could only see him occasionally when Harry came home from school. Carroll was also friends with Greville McDonald, son of the famous Pre-Rafaelite artist. In fact, Greville was the first child to read and review Alice in Wonderland having been given the book by Carroll before publication. But yes, he himself did prefers girls, mostly because of bad encounters with bullies in boarding school, and having many younger sisters he loved entertaining.

@billyandrew

4 жыл бұрын

He was a paedo. End of.

@japonaliya

4 жыл бұрын

@Elizabeth Vering First, that is not true, idiot. Read about the Victorians. Read "Men in Wonderland". You are applying todays standards and saying it's wrong. I agree it is a small minority, but to take the leap that it is wrong is a moral judgment. So even if it is unusual, and the reasons for such relationships have psychogical roots... So what? No harm no foul, and we KNOW from the people who were there including the children themselves that he was a good influence on them which they cherished. Read their memoirs! To say something is wrong or bad just because it would be frowned upon today is so short sighted. Remember idiot, Dodgson's relationships with children were with the full approval of their families. He didn't sneak around and grab them off the street. The relationships were sanctioned by the parents and most of the children were of friends and colleagues. We are talking about hundreds of children over his life time, not just a few who had the wool pulled over their eyes. Were THEY complicity in some sort of psychotic cabal that targets children for immoral purposes? Yes, Dodgson was eccentric as were many others of his time, but to see it as devient says more about YOU than Dodgson and other Victorian men. Again.. Go on Amazon, look for the book, "Men in Wonderland" by Catherine Robson. Your answers are there.... No Beth, I am not devient. I am defending one particular man, not anyone who by their actions harms a child either physically or emotionally. Whether you choose to believe it or not, the evidence is overwhelming in Dodgson's favor, and being a person who did his research before jumping to conclusions, I have the high ground. No Elizabeth, it is not all black or all white. Like children? Must be devient, immoral, child abuser.

@japonaliya

4 жыл бұрын

@@billyandrew And you are a fool! End of it!!

As a professional photographer that IS the same girl. Without a doubt. I've had to do many comparison id's like this.

How very sad about the ending, but an incredible story! Very well done!

Okay, so now my eyes are open wider than before. Just goes to show that putting people up on a pedestal is a huge mistake. Famous or not; they are no better or worse than any other person can be.

@dequadrewalton2582

5 жыл бұрын

true kim

@falcychead8198

5 жыл бұрын

People are also very fond of pushing others off pedestals.

@mindtheprivacy

5 жыл бұрын

Like Picasso.

@japonaliya

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe it also goes to show how you shouldn't believe everything you read or watch unless you are capable to doing your own research and not be spoon fed someone else's agenda. This tv doc is full of false and unfounded speculation. I hope you know that the nude photo of Lorina Liddell at the end of the program has been proven false on two accounts. It was not taken by Dodgson/Carroll and the girl isn't Lorina. So.. what do we have but only to look at a man who in his time was loved and those who knew him had only good things to say about him, but 150 years later it's a OK to call him a pedophile without a shred of real evidence!! It is almost like Alice in the courtroom... Off with his head, sentence first, vertict after.....

@tonibauer2949

4 жыл бұрын

SURREY CROSSING I once was told by a boyfriend that he would put me on a pedestal. I told him that was a very uncomfortable place to reside. We didn’t last long.

I expected a nice little documentary on Alice in wonderland, but it some how turned in to a debate about naked child photographs. Sigh.

@jackiemidkiff7844

5 жыл бұрын

I thought this "secret world" would be a shack where he trips out for a week, like most philosophers and psychedelic writers.

@DelphineTheWorstBladeEver

5 жыл бұрын

Is.... That not a big deal to you???

@nilsnyman6767

4 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the internet

@jadecurran8229

4 жыл бұрын

Are you disappointed you didn't receive a documentary about a book, or the fact he had a sexual attraction to little girls?

@anonb4632

4 жыл бұрын

@@DelphineTheWorstBladeEver I'm a fan of his writing, and am well aware of the criminal leanings he had... But yes, I would have liked a documentary to cover the writing as well. Most stuff on KZread about him is about that subject.

I highly doubt that children would report “inappropriate” behavior to their parents because things WERE different. I don’t think a child in those times would have disclosed anything, specially if they were groomed to think they were willing participants.

I was in shock of Nicholas Shrimpton's response when asked about Lewis's photo's of the nude child: "like many people he thought the human body was a supremely beautiful thing, and he thought the most supremely beautiful form of the human body was the female body before puberty" Wow this guy really is in denial 🙄 They just keep fumbling with their answers.

@daltsav

2 жыл бұрын

In an age where pedophilia is prevalent it really doesn't matter what this man thought of the pre pubescent female. What matters is the exploitation of an innocent who now has to live with the fact that her body was used because of someone elses ideas. Innocence no matter what is fragile and should be protected by the strong until the innocent reaches an age where they can protect themselves.

It remains captivating because as an adult you realize that's what life is horrifyingly like.

@indian.patterns

2 жыл бұрын

True

As a fan of litereture in general, I have over the years read forwards, book reviews, and other articles about books in which I have read about things like the fact that someone once wrote a novel without using the letter "e", and I came across mention af someone once having written a novel based on chess. When I read Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland I realized that it seemed like some of the movements of the characters do echo the moves of chess pieces...I'm guessing Carrol might have invented details about the pieces as he was teaching chess to a child, hoping to make it more interesting--and he may have done the same thing at some point with a card game...

Been on KZread a long while now and I have to say - the amount of commercials in this video was distracting and a little overkill. The content of the video is good but whatever is triggering commercials every 2 minutes (or so) makes it a chore to watch the whole thing. The original manuscripts and artwork is absolutely stunning. Lewis Carroll has taken on a completely different dimension for me. Excellent presentation, thanks!

I’m a fan of the Alice stories. This is really the only documentary I’ve seen about this. Definitely gives credence to the rumors.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

As any documentary on this subject goes, it's not too bad, certainly captures the wonder of the stories, especially Will Self. Please be aware, the full-frontal is NOT Lorina Liddell.

Having worked in several museums, I have *serious* doubts that any museum would give permission to remove fairly large amounts of material (look at the pile of shavings at 50:19, and remember that we're talking about something on a sheet of paper) from an artifact-* certainly* not to someone not connected to the museum. So what we have is a picture of a dark-haired girl, taken with the same type of mass-produced camera and developed with the standard process of the time that Dodgson used, with an attribution by someone else- no-one knows who- examined by a "conservator" who's perfectly happy to be filmed causing irreperable damage to a historic artifact. Colour me unconvinced...

@daniserrzuni4516

3 жыл бұрын

I just keep thinking of why he would signed the picture with his stage name and not his real one

@turtleanton6539

2 жыл бұрын

Yeh

@Mark-Mcloud

2 жыл бұрын

Why have two names was one he used around children so he was able to know what letters to open. Something clearly happened for pages to be removed from his diary and the older sister spoke of his interest in her. That photo could also be the reason why the mother stopped him visiting

@alohajenn

2 жыл бұрын

I think this is disturbing.. what kind of parent let's a grown man spend so much alone time with their Daughters.. This story screams pedophile to me!!

@Mark-Mcloud

2 жыл бұрын

@@alohajenn It disturbs you that a family friend was allowed to watch over the child? Also in the Victorian times it wasn’t uncommon for a girl as young as 12 to marry with her parents consent the boy needed to be 14 to marry so had Mr Carroll plans to my the oldest daughter Lorina there would be no issues also before condemning them with the way we think today what are your thoughts of Elvis at the age of 24 dating his 14 year old cousin and marrying her

I absolutely loved this book. Alice felt a real child to me. I still remember the "You Are Old Father William" poem and thinking it was so funny.

@katushaloo4179

3 жыл бұрын

A assesses aaaa

@patriciajrs46

9 ай бұрын

I'll have to look that up. I've never heard of it. I also wondered, too, if the Jabberwocky poem was actually included in the original story.

@DataLal

8 ай бұрын

​@@patriciajrs46 The Jabberwocky poem was in the sequel, Through the Looking Glass.

@patriciajrs46

8 ай бұрын

@@DataLal thank you.

I never liked this story as a child & now I know why. I dont understand how anyone doesn't see that Caroll was anything but a child predator.

The look on Alice's face on the questionable photograph says to me, "Can we please hurry this up? I'm tired of standing here."

@raylovelace8588

4 жыл бұрын

Much worse than today. Sting=ding for a full minute without moving a muscle made most photo subjects look pretty grim back then, but, then, the same process made the dead they took pics of look VERY lifelike.

43:41 love that guy, couldnt have said it better myself

@herewegokids7

4 жыл бұрын

Same

@herewegokids7

4 жыл бұрын

He's not having it

@beardedshadow

4 жыл бұрын

Will Self. Watch him on Have I Got News For You. Very funny.

@pocketpicker6613

2 жыл бұрын

*Reaches down for a drink...*

One of my writing professors in college told me, "if people like your work, then they like you". That statement baffled me then and baffles me now. Carroll's books are fantastic. His use of prose is beyond masterful and the stories themselves are precedent-class. But do I "like" him? No. I don't personally know him (since he died long before I was born) so he and I can't be buddies. I don't hate him either for the same reason. The same goes for living authors such as Neal Stephenson, Stephen King, and JK Rowling (to name a few). They are wonderful authors and their books make my life better but I don't know them so I'm not going to use the completely misused phrases "like" or "love". "Artificial intelligence" is another woefully misused phrase but that's another story. Bottom line: Carroll was obviously waaaayyy into little girls but that doesn't make his writing anything less than superb.

@cheesecake4648

2 жыл бұрын

the first time i read alice in wonderland I thought an amateur wrote that. the story had potential but his writing was below average.

@violet9853

2 жыл бұрын

@@cheesecake4648 haha

@EndmayTriumph

Жыл бұрын

@@cheesecake4648 anyway it's a children's book bruh

@Angie_flores

6 ай бұрын

Teachers sometimes don’t know what the heck they’re talking about

@carlycrays2831

6 ай бұрын

Normally I might agree. But then I see JK Rowling and her crazy and she does clearly believe this. She thinks people agree with her awful transphobia because they love Harry Potter. So, yeah, maybe to some extent, this is more true than we want to admit. When we buy something, even if we don't like the creator, we're in some way supporting them

When I hear people make excuses for someone that without a doubt was attracted to children just because he wrote a book.... the people on this documentary should surely be thinking how they came across.

@mrunning10

2 жыл бұрын

So read Dodgson's mind, have we? with that Read-the-Thoughts-of-Dead-People Time Machine?? Can you tell me where you bought it? Amazon Prime? I want one too!

The snippet of conversation from Lorena is actually the clue : "One has to tell them SOMETHING". IOW, she gave an excuse that would not embarrass herself

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

Bingo!

Interesting that it takes 43:22 before the P-word even comes up at all. Also, a whole lot of sweeping dirt under the rug at 55:19.

@beardedshadow

4 жыл бұрын

And it was Will Self who had the guts to say it, no surprises there.

@beardedshadow

4 жыл бұрын

@Elizabeth Vering He's an author. I haven't read any of his books, yet, but at least one of them seems intriguing: Great Apes.

@overbeb

3 жыл бұрын

There’s no actual evidence for that. Just speculation based on his photographs of her.

C'mon, what grown man asks for a lock of a young child's hair and they're not even their father or a relative??? WEIRD. BIZARRE. CREEPY.

@Pstephen

6 жыл бұрын

Now, maybe; not then.

@gigijbijbj

6 жыл бұрын

Stephen Parkin all I hear is excuses

@Pstephen

6 жыл бұрын

You're judging conventions of 150+ years ago by today's standards.

@Altamisal

6 жыл бұрын

+ Stephen Parkin, you are right on. These accusers have terminal tunnel vision. I can't stand to read anymore of these clueless comments, I'm outta here!

@kriskeilman8124

6 жыл бұрын

Ilia Harkins kill my landlord.

The 24-year-old man was close to the girl only 4 years old. They were alone with him in his room. Letters. Pages missing in his diary. Photos collection. Kisses. Magic mushroom. Weird creepy book. - P...

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

Dodgson was NOT "close" to a 4-year-old! Replay, listen this time, get the years and the dates right this time.

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

If you think the book is weird and creepy then get help. And you parents need help to for raising you with obvious neurosis.

Its odd that if an adult man shows ANY interest in children that instantly makes him a pedophile. These accusations coming from the same people who say they men focus too much on masculinity and dominance. Well yes, they will do when the second they show an amount of love and kindness they're accused of being sexual predators.

When I was 5 my mother read a chapter of the unabridged version of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass to me every night at bedtime. I loved the story and still do and still have the book. I loved the illustrations by John Tenniel. To this day my favorite form of illustration is pen and ink.

@lecturideneuitat7989

2 жыл бұрын

Alice in Wonderland in romanian kzread.info/dash/bejne/a2eIycmRfLWcnZM.html Also Alice through the looking glass kzread.info/head/PL2FkuXQQ7wZi91WCZISY_S1-_m5essvRh

@sambotros1918

2 жыл бұрын

@@lecturideneuitat7989 kzread.info/dash/bejne/m3-jpNejma3flsY.html

You can tell more about a person by where they fall on the question on Carroll's relationship with Alice than most anything else. Of course, it doesn't tell you anything about Carroll himself.

@bachirmessaouri4772

3 жыл бұрын

At last, someone with a brain and some perspective. Thank you.

@mrunning10

Жыл бұрын

Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson.

A: Some of his so -called child friends were married women, such as actresses from the West End. Others he had known as children and stayed friends with them well into adulthood and marriage. B:The only Liddell who stayed in constant touch with him throughout her life was Lorina 'Ina', who became Mrs skene. So I doubt he harmed her. Alice invited him to her wedding and asked him to be godfather to her son Caryl. She herself was polite but distant, busy being a society hostess. C: He actually did have grown up friends and was highly social. He just didn't get on with certain colleagues later in life, nor male undergraduates. He did get on with women students at the then private school for young women. He was much more involved in the artistic circle and had some friends in Oxford and London. Arthur Hughes, Ellen Terry (actress) Robinson Duckworth Rossetti family for example. D: Social climbing. The Liddells were well connected and Mr. Liddell was his superior, photography was new and interesting way up the social ladder.

I loved the idea of falling through the looking glass into another world of such fantasy. Cheshire cat 😸, the Mad Hatter, to the Queen of Hearts ❤ and ....." Off With Their Heads." Just Absolutely.....Fantastic! 😍

41:00 - no evidence of anything inappropriate - 2 minutes later - children naked for photography. Um.

@tetrahedron1000

4 жыл бұрын

If you see anything wrong with that, then YOU have a dirty mind. I hope that you never have children.

@robokill387

4 жыл бұрын

tons of victorian era people did that. We view it as inappropriate today but it was accepted at the time. In fact many people photographed their children naked as recently as a few decades ago.

@cat_terrell

3 жыл бұрын

@@robokill387 They Absolutely Knew That was inappropriate in Victorian era! Wtf?! Are You Kidding!!! Ankle Boots!!! FOR fs' Sake! Ur an idiot! Or a P...!!!!!

@cat_terrell

3 жыл бұрын

@@tetrahedron1000 Bet You Have a Dirty Mind! The Victorian Era, was a time of Hide Your Ankles and Any thing Below the Neckline, CREEPY!!!!

@robokill387

3 жыл бұрын

@@cat_terrell "They Absolutely Knew That was inappropriate in Victorian era!" No they didn't. You are projecting modern day sensibilities into the past. Tons of respected photographers from the period took nude photos of children, including pioneering woman photographers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Margaret_Cameron FFS, the victorians would take photos of dead bodies sitting alongside living people, yet you expect them to follow the exact same values as today? "The Victorian Era, was a time of Hide Your Ankles and Any thing Below the Neckline, CREEPY!!!!" No, that's a massive oversimpification of the sort someone who hasn't done much research on the era and is going off stereotypes would make. Again, how can you claim that people in victorian times would know this was inappropriate when it wasn't even universally seen as inappropriate in the 1990s!

The pic where the 3 girls are sitting alice was the only one with her dress open and ankles exposed..she was the only one not tucked in her dress like the other 2 girls..I do 1800s living history and know some stuff on 1800s etiquette..and to me this seems odd too

@chrisbabcock9097

3 жыл бұрын

Lol everyone is expert when the other person can’t defend themselves lol

@Hi-lb8cq

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisbabcock9097 I'm not saying that he did anything at all...because it could be nothing...Times Were Different Back Then though too

@Hi-lb8cq

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisbabcock9097 your allowed to be an expert if you actually know what your talking about 😂😂😂

@Jennifahh

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hi-lb8cq but still making stupid assumptions!!!

@Hi-lb8cq

3 жыл бұрын

@@Jennifahh and your here why???...just another keyboard troll😂😂😂😂

Excellent production . Well researched and lovingly presented .

5:15 i read A I W at 12 yrs old and was disturbed by the behavior of the adults in the story. I felt vulnerable and afraid. Unfortunately the most important adult relations gave me reason to be afraid. When children behaved like these characters I was mystified

@ginaandseason2774

5 ай бұрын

Same!

They should have blurred those pictures esp that last one ffs

Just because a man spending time with young girls and taking naked photos was seen "different" years ago doesn't mean he wasn't a pedophile.

@nadermost4864

5 жыл бұрын

It's true, Lewis probably didn't have a fond childhood, people are the way they are for reasons, however wrong, also tragic. In the very least the book was able to be an ebodiment of his good nature in storytelling and imagination, while reality had a very much more bleak truth to it.

@santuccipontarelli3763

4 жыл бұрын

I am PINKIE Daniels he was a pedophile 😡

@japonaliya

4 жыл бұрын

@@santuccipontarelli3763 proof? Fool!

@SatoriBunniii

4 жыл бұрын

japonaliya Show me the proof that he wasn’t. If he did not take pictures of naked girls and done horrible things then prove us wrong.

@staninjapan07

4 жыл бұрын

And neither does it prove the opposite. It is very easy to be a KZread jury member or judge, but if you were to find yourself in the speculative position in which Carrol seems to be here, even as a woman (you have no immunity from being suspected), I suspect you'd be asking for proof to be given priority over speculation, and there is a huge amount of speculation here. None of this means, of course, that Carrol was certainly not attracted to these girls in an inappropriate way. Keep in mind the lense through which we early 21st century citizens are expected to view and frame this. Keep in mind culture, too - if you were unfortunate to have been sexually abused in, say, Saudi Arabia, you might find a religious court punishing you for having been scantily clad and 'inviting' trouble. You, I suspect, from your 'western' viewpoint, might see that as far too biased a culturally based opinion. Please do not imagine this is an attack upon you, or a thinly veiled defence of innapropriate beahiour toward children. I am merely asking that you reconsider your apparently casual statement.

A picture says a thousand words and Lewis Carroll is talking volumes in his photography.

Will Self- I appreciate his straight forward take... and I have to agree with him.

Wow, he spent probably hundreds of hours making that book for her.

@herewegokids7

4 жыл бұрын

He was obsessed

@odoggow8157

4 жыл бұрын

@@herewegokids7 understatement

@daddygirlchanelhines4600

4 жыл бұрын

He was an drug addicted rapist.

@tetrahedron1000

4 жыл бұрын

@@daddygirlchanelhines4600 For your information, magic mushrooms are not addictive and, as for the second accusation, you have no proof. The ignorance on some of these pages is appalling. I blame the Internet. It stops people from thinking.

@davidschadeberg3786

3 жыл бұрын

@@tetrahedron1000 I know of no evidence of mushrooms, or any drugs. Show me the evidence, proof!

This was done so amazingly!! I love the narrator, she's delightful and excited the whole time she meets people and talks to them!!

I freaking LOVE this documentary, from the subject, the interviews, locations, music...

I first came across this Alice book as a 7 year old. I couldn't read it because it terrified me, the illustrations mainly. I was an abused child. Maybe I sensed something fundamentally wrong? I cannot help but agree with Will Self.

@ED80s

Жыл бұрын

Me too. I never liked this book and the photos terrified me.

@Pugetwitch

10 ай бұрын

dude has Jared from subway energy

@jtonthatrack3984

10 ай бұрын

@@Pugetwitchyou commented on everything and you look manic asf

I keep coming back to this documentary, its so interesting! And I love the host, she's great

Go ask Alice.... I think she'll knooow.....

@HannibalFan52

6 жыл бұрын

Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head! Feed your head!

@dougbennett8592

6 жыл бұрын

One pill makes you smaller, and one pill makes you small. And the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all.

@karissailormoon

6 жыл бұрын

And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call

@MrParkerman6

6 жыл бұрын

When men on the chessboard get up and tell you were to go!

@dequadrewalton2582

5 жыл бұрын

if we can a warm version of her

Fascinating documentary!! Excellent research has been undertaken to produce this, hasn't it.

I had no idea about the history of this author. Pretty disturbing peice of history.