John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. NKJV

@SoftBreadSoftware

Ай бұрын

Keep reading. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. 24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” You see here, if Jesus is God, logically, all man would have to be God. Matthew 12:46-50: 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Hebrews 2:11- For both He who [a]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.” 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [b]give aid to angels, but He does [c]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [d]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. High Priest pertaining to God. Please in of 807,000 words you cannot find one clear statement that Jesus is God without us also being God.

@AlanBallou

Ай бұрын

@@SoftBreadSoftware do you think I am trying to prove that Jesus is God? You're making your own argument, and then answering yourself. Take a breath and listen. I am proving the preexistence of Christ, which is what this video speaks against, and that is easily proven with many scriptures. Here, I will add another one just for you. 1 Peter 1:10-11 [10] Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, [11] searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. NKJV

@SmalltimR

16 күн бұрын

@@AlanBallou Can you explain how 1 Peter 1:10-11, proves the preexistence of Christ? That said, do you have another other scriptures that would show the preexistence of Christ?

@AlanBallou

16 күн бұрын

@@SmalltimR do you believe 1 Peter 1:10-11 written in your own Bible? Does not 1 Peter 1:10-11 show that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old? How many scriptures are needed to prove this video false? Does not 1 Corinthians 10:4 prove it false? 1 Corinthians 10:4 [4] and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. NKJV Take away the man-made titles, and the degrees hanging on the wall, and just listen to the fruit (Matthew 7:15-20, 12:33-35). A good tree does not bear bad fruit, point blank period. If they cannot speak in accordance with the Word of God, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20). I'm sorry I even commented on this video, because my instructions are to leave them alone (Matthew 15:14). Bye

@SmalltimR

16 күн бұрын

@@AlanBallou The Spirit of Christ in the prophets, would not imply Jesus existing at that time, as this could be interpreted in various ways. Likewise, the spirit of Christ outlined 1 Corinthians 10:4 could also be interpreted in a similar fashion That said, do you know of any Bible passages like John 17:5, that place Jesus in heaven prior-to earth?

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. NKJV

Tugy is showing us how much trinitarians have truly strayed off the true path

@calebmoore4727

Жыл бұрын

please don't be mislead by this wordsmith. He twist scripture so much

@Merih98614

11 ай бұрын

If you wake up, you'll understand how much he led you astray from the Truth.

@bstlybengali

11 ай бұрын

@@Merih98614 the trinity logically entails polytheism.

@Merih98614

11 ай бұрын

@@bstlybengali Absolutely not, if you understand it correctly.

@bstlybengali

11 ай бұрын

@@Merih98614 3 distinct persons each of whom are 100% god. is that right?

The only way Jesus, or anyone, had preexisted their birth, is in the logos of the Father, who is the only true God. The Father stands from eternity, to eternity, so, for Him(and only Him), Jesus and all of us have always existed.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

Seriously!!??

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

Did you by chance leave out the word NOT between have and existed?? Just wondered??

@iJoel00

Жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 what was said was phrased well.

@LordDirus007

8 ай бұрын

"Before Abraham was, I AM" Why are Jesus words not clear to you?! He said that Abraham loved him.

@LordDirus007

8 ай бұрын

Before Abraham Was, I Am 48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple

The case against Jesus existing in heaven prior to earth is one of the silliest beliefs I have ever encountered - it makes no sense whatsoever, nor can anyone rightfully justify the overall resentment of the view...

What a refreshing amount of discussion in the comments. My only hope is that it does not involve "talking past one another." *_None of us are omniscient,_* and we do not understand the full spirit of scripture, otherwise we would be in Heaven right now, alongside Christ. Our *_certainty_* should never be aimed at our current knowledge, but only toward God and toward our ability to ask God for more clarification. I found the core Unitarian idea decades before I knew of the Unitarian churches, so I am so grateful to have discovered these wonderful people after 72 years. On this point of *_preexistence,_* I wholeheartedly *_disagree_* with Dr. Tuggy. So much of scripture supports preexistence not only of Christ, but of each one of us, as well. Not the least of these verses is Genesis 1:26, Genesis 6:3, Numbers 14:18 with Ezekiel 18:18-20, John 3:13, John 9:1-2, Matthew 17:12-13, and Matthew 26:52. Christ repeatedly emphasized that the flesh is nothing, but the spirit is everything. This sentiment is echoed in Genesis 6:3, and in the Great Flood, for God cares about the children who look like Him -- *_not_* the bodies they wear!

@RodMartinJr

Жыл бұрын

@@jimkennedy8812 Thank you! And there are other places where reincarnation is strongly implied. Live by the sword; die by the sword; yet not every criminal seems to get their just reward. Numbers 14.18 versus Ezekiel 18.18-20; the apparent contradiction is solved by reincarnation. Certainty in our own knowledge can be a source of great blindness, yet certainty in our ability to learn new knowledge can be a source of incredible empowerment. The First shall be last, and the Last, first. Perpetual humility of this kind may seem uncomfortable, but it is like riding the crest of a wave toward God's Absolute Truth -- never arriving, but constantly improving, so long as we live on this side of the Narrow Gate.

Does the Scriptures reference "God the Son" anywhere at all?? Hmm.A great deal is said about Luficer while in heaven; his wisdom, and beauty etc., but it't it odd that no reference or descripture of the pre-existing son Jesus. Also what position would he have held? At his ascension it is said he was exaulted above the angels, however, as God the pre-existing son wouldn't he had a higher position than the angle already?. Just something to think about. Not rocket science...just common sense logic.

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it does, but for you to expect it to be to your western liking you are mistaken. We can’t demand it fit our English terminology. Gods Word was written down in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek and has been translated to English, so let’s make that clear first. I would like to know your references because it seems a lot of what you say seems deeply opinionated. However, here is some help for you that comes from Scripture: And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (John 3:13) For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (John 6:33) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 6:38) Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (John 6:62) He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23) For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, (Romans 8:3) the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-(1 John 1:2) But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

@J0nDaFr3aK

3 жыл бұрын

Read Revelation and compare the praise ascribed to God and the praise given to the Son.

@brightyafesi

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewoverholser491 Amen!

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewoverholser491 all of your verses are from Johns which is the last written gospel and letters. And the Paul references never says he was pre existing, just that God finally said it was time for him to enter the world through a woman just as all of us are

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@@weknowthetruth6863 with no biological father? Just like us right?

Colossians 1:15-18 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [16] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [17] And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [18] And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. NKJV

I basicly agree with this guy .. but he uses a couple of arguments that get way out there .

People literalize the Scriptures because they're not reading with spiritual eyes. The Scriptures are a body of spiritual literature. Jesus spoke plainly when he said, “You must be born again”; but, how are we to understand that? Nicodemus took it at face value. Common sense told him that Jesus was saying something that was total nonsense. Reading his words with spiritual eyes, we realize that we must be born from above, that God must give us heavenly (spiritual) life.

The "not" was left out Ooops!

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. NKJV

@colingr318

2 ай бұрын

Moses was a prophet who wrote about a lot of things that would only come to pass in the future. Read the Song of Moses.

@AlanBallou

2 ай бұрын

@@colingr318 Christ was with them (1 Cor 10:4), yes, which is more New Testament evidence against this speaker. There are many more scriptures, but only one is needed to prove his words false.

@AlanBallou

2 ай бұрын

1 Peter 1:10-11 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, [11] searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. NKJV

@colingr318

2 ай бұрын

@@AlanBallou 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (KJV) The fact that this verse says the “spirit of Christ” was upon people in the Old Testament has caused people to believe that Christ himself was present in the Old Testament. But, as we will see, such is not the case. In the first place, the phrase “spirit of Christ” never appears in the Old Testament. The “spirit of the Lord” or “the spirit of God” appears over and over, but never the “spirit of Christ.” The spirit that God places upon people takes on different names as it refers to different functions. This can be abundantly proven. Nevertheless, the spirit is the same. God always gives His spirit, and then it is named as it functions. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17). When it is associated with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29). When it is related to glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14). It is called the “spirit of adoption” when it is associated with our everlasting life (Rom. 8:15, which is translated as “spirit of sonship” in some versions). It is called “the spirit of truth” when it is associated with the truth we learn by revelation (John 14:17; 16:13). When it came with the same power as it brought to Elijah, it was called “the spirit of Elijah” (2 Kings 2:15). These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the one gift of holy spirit that God gives. Ephesians 4:4 states clearly that there is “one spirit,” and that spirit is God’s gift of holy spirit given to some people in the Old Testament and to all believers today. When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was upon prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

@colingr318

2 ай бұрын

@@AlanBallou Christ was not Jesus' actual surname or name. Christ means anointing. Not with oil, but with God's spirit. So it was Jesus the Christ, i.e. anointed one. So the Fathers spirit (anointing) has been with many of his faithful servants.

He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things. Ephesians 4:10 / How do you interpret this? "He who descended"? Talking of Jesus?

@kevin8360

2 жыл бұрын

Jesus descended into the grave. Into the earth. Just as he said was the sign of Jonah. Then he ascended, after resurrection.

@janetgillespie6590

7 ай бұрын

Agreed. John 3 : 13 also. And before Abraham was, I was.

@anneviggiano3801

5 ай бұрын

The Spirit of God in Creation descended and entered His own creation. Added a Body for the purpose of going to the Cross, because there is no remission of sins without the shedding of Blood. The Blood of Jesus. God in Christ. Reconciling the world. Unto Himself Jesus was sent. From His conception. As the Son of Man. And. The Son of God. One Spirit. In One Body

I agree with this doctrin . It had been reveal to me not by men .hence my surch

@LordDirus007

8 ай бұрын

"BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM!" "Why are my words not clear to you? It's because you are Children of your Father, the Devil!"

psalm 89:27

In Hebrews 1:8 the Father Himself call the Son as God...and 1:10 the Father calls HIM Lord...and st Paul in 1 cor. 8:6 yet for us there is one God... And one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Also in Matt 28:18...All authorityhas been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

@chriscuomo9334

6 ай бұрын

Yes, after J ascended, God made J a god Before ascension J was fully human. 1 Did God always foreknow that you would be born of your parents? If so, are you also eternal? Did you exist from the beginning of the foundations of the world? Are you also a god? 2 Is mary the mother of God if baby J was fully G and fully human? If so, who is the father of God? If mary is the mother of God why isn’t there a quaternity? 3 If J is the begotten son of God, then how can J be coeternal with God? 4 if J’s sacrifice and death on the cross was full and whole, and, J at that time was fully wholly G and fully wholly human, and a god cannot die, then how was J fully wholly G+human and then also fully wholly dying?

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, [3] all ate the same spiritual food, [4] and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. NKJV

Regarding the words "come" & "sent" . . to apply the logic you used, how are we to know the difference between coming into being at that moment and already existing concerning Messengers from/of God, like 'Angel of the LORD' ? Do you think when the three Messengers appeared to Abraham, he knew they weren't human? Therefore from some place else, which caused him to respond the way he did? Jesus's Father is God, his mother is a human woman. Common sense says he is both divine & human. The text states born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin, nothing else about other material used, like Adam made from the dust of the earth, Eve from the rib of Adam. "Coming 'from' God," references not only the Sender, but also from where the Sender is located. God visited Sara at the time He promised He would and she conceived and bore Abraham the Promised Son Isaac. Genesis 17:16, 18:10 & Genesis 21

I have a choice! either to believe 'Dr' Tuggy or Jesus. What did Jesus say about himself " He that descended fro heavan ( th son of man)". John 3:13. also "I came down from heavan" John 6:42. Also "Father glorify me with the glory I HAD with you before the world was". Mmm! On balancve I think I will accept what jesus said! that "I am the bread that came down from heavan"...e.t.c e.t.c ( John 6:50 ). However as I read John's gospel I read the REASON he wrote it, summed up in john 20:31 "These things have been written down that you may believe that Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD. That good enough for me

@marisakennedy777

Жыл бұрын

Yes, but not God the Son.

@kiwihans100

Жыл бұрын

@@marisakennedy777 'God the son' is not in any verse in the bible! You are quoting what men have said! The bible only says 'The Son of God'. On the other hand the bible DOES say many times 'God the father' ( Also the bible never says 'God the Holy spirit'!) The 'trinity' is totally a manmade concept!

The pre-existance doctrine contradicts the virgin birth, contradictions are false.

Thanks for your presentation. I wish it was much longer and actually delved into the scriptures that more than hint at the pre-existence doctrine. I should state that I am not a trinitarian and have never believed that doctrine. I have always been a monotheist but I have always clearly seen the pre-existence of Jesus taught in scripture. Its undeniable. If Jesus did not pre-exist his earthly life as a man , Paul would have never written the emphatic statements found in Colosians 1- 15&16 "He is the image of the invisible God, first born over all creation. 16. For by him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him. " These same thoughts are echoed in John 1 verse 10 which stated " He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him. Lastly , the same thought is expressed in Hebrews 1 verse 1 & 2 where it states " God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom also made the worlds." I have exchanged numerous emails with Sir Anthony Buzzard on this topic and in my opinion he was completely at a loss to explain these passages. I have seen numerous debates with trinitarians and unitarians and never have I seen a plausible explanation for these passages by unitarians or Christadelphians or anyone who denies the pre-existence of Christ. There are many other scriptures that also would need some type of explanation and none exist that sound logical. They all involve long winded and convoluted explanations that resemble the explanations that trinitarians have to offer when explaining how a supposed immortal Jesus actually died. It devolves into nonsense. I implore you to re-examine the scriptures and honestly ask yourself why Paul would make this undeniably emphatic statement about Jesus work as God's agent of creation. There are dozens of other scriptures worthy of consideration as well, but obviously I won't go into every last one in this venue.

@priscillajervey6134

4 жыл бұрын

NO it is Not undeniable! God created all things with Jesus in mind. Just as a mother- to- be begins preparing a nursery for her unborn child. If you have emailed Anthony Buzzard and others on this subject but have not accepted their explainations in view of the evidence afforded you, but cling to clouded verses in scriptures, akin to Jesus stating "when you see me, you are seeing the father." You are seeing what you really want to see and believe. Frankley you have already made up your mind, and doubt if anyone could convince you otherwise, just like the millions who refuse to accept that Jesus is the Son of God and not God NO matter how much scriptural proof is given them.

@grantknott

4 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey6134 I absolutely agree with you. I am just about convinced that Jesus did not pre-exist, only in the mind, plan, the purpose of Almighty God. People really need to look at the context of these so-called proof texts (especially John) together with the mind and language of the Jewish writers, their style of writing, and ways of expressing almighty God, and their pattern of thought. It's like, when the lord, Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah, whatever you respectfully call him, expressed something it is as good as done Isaiah 55:1, Romans 4:17. As always, context should win the day! Let’s leave it to a modern Jewish writer to have the last word… Messiah … “is present in the mind of God and chosen before the creation, and from time to time revealed to the righteous for their consolation, but he is … not actually pre-existent. He is named and hidden from the beginning in the secret thoughts of God, finally to be revealed in the Last Times as the ideal Man who will justify God’s creation of the world.”​

@coreymihailiuk5189

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey6134 I began these scriptural studies over 45 years ago so this topic is hardly new. Please examine the scriptures in question in the koine greek and see what they say. They speak plainly and therefore I have to accept what the authors said.

@coreymihailiuk5189

2 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park Examine the scriptures in question in the koine greek. They say what they say and it is undeniable.

@IsJesusGod.

2 жыл бұрын

Cognoscenti Cycles You are miles from the truth, nowhere does it say Jesus is the creator. You as most are using false translations.

In the beginning 'was' the word- he was already there at the beginning. Nothing that was created was made apart from him so he can't be created. The synoptics don't teach that he's not God, or that he didn't create, so no contraction! The old testament says hardly anything about the death and resurrection of the Messiah. But it is essential in the New testament progressive revelation of God, to be saved and know God. Psalm 110, john 1 the Word became flesh! Colossians 1, phillipians 2. Can you exegete Colossians 1?

@ken440

5 ай бұрын

Coloasians 1 is easy to see from a unitarian point of view, and its a travesty that trinitarians think it proves Jesus made the cosmos, the angels and uncle tom cobblers and all. Because they ignore the context of Colossians. Paul is addressing error in their church group, where they place angels higher perhaps than Jesus. The intro in my study bible, and internet searches, tells of correcting the worshipping of angels, and Paul points out that Jesus is the gead, that he set up the spiritual powers and authorities which guard and watch over the church and that he created all things to do with it, the NEW CREATION, NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE. When i faced this one 6 years ago when studying the unitarian view, it was quite obvious. Context is chief. Then came Hebrews.. same issue slightly different context set up in ch1v1. Times past vs times now in this church age. Just a concordance over a single coffee proved that God didnt make the universe through Jesus (v2). If you want to understand what he did make (context is v1) then look up Strongs G165.

Brilliant and true and correct teaching by Dr Dale. GOD bless him.

@wardmccomiskey2401

3 жыл бұрын

No!!!!

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

3 жыл бұрын

YES!! BRILLIANT DR TUGGY!!

@wardmccomiskey2401

3 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 Sorry- DR.Tuggy is in dangerous error and even denying the Deity of Christ. Heresy !!!

@IsJesusGod.

3 жыл бұрын

@@wardmccomiskey2401 You have been deceived as most. Please read what Jesus only ever taught, who only ever said: *I am the SON of GOD John 10:36,* NOT GOD. GOD the SON is a false Christ. The Son of GOD is the TRUE Christ. You DENY the Christ and the Father and the SON 1 John 2:22.

@vitaliiukraine4662

2 жыл бұрын

@@IsJesusGod. So you think that all Trinitarians haven't Father and the Son and aren't true Christians? Does confession Unity of God according Unitarians has influence on salvation according what you believe?

JOHN 1:1 Part 1 *"IN THE BEGINNING"* What Beginning? The Greek word translated "the beginning" is *archeé* which means: "at first, to begin, at the start of, to start, to commence, or commencement." Scripture interprets scripture. The NT scriptures show that "archeé" is used when referring to the beginning of John the Baptist's and Jesus' ministry. In Genesis 1:1, ‘In the beginning’ introduces the story of the old creation; here John introduces the story of the new creation. In both works of creation the agent is the Word of God." (F.F. Bruce, The Gospel of John, pp. 28 and 29). Compare and study Mark 1:1-5; Luke 1:1; 1 John 1-6; John 2:11; John 6:64; John 15:27; John 16:4; 2:John 1:5-6 The following is a QUOTE from The Racovian Catechism, (Unitarian 14th and 15th centuries), "In the cited passage (John 1:1) wherein the Word is said to have been in the beginning, there is no reference to an antecedent eternity, without commencement; because mention is made here of a beginning, which is opposed to that eternity. But the word beginning, used absolutely, is to be understood of the subject matter under consideration. Thus...John 15:27, “And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been with me FROM the beginning.” John 16:4, “These things I said not unto you AT the beginning because I was with you.” And Acts 11:15, “And as I began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us AT the beginning.” As then the matter of which John is treating is the Gospel, or the things transacted under the Gospel, nothing else ought to be understood here beside the beginning of the Gospel; a matter clearly known to the Christians whom he addressed, namely, the advent and preaching of John the Baptist, according to the testimony of all the evangelists [i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke and John], each of whom begins his history with the coming and preaching of the Baptist. Mark indeed (Chapter 1:1) expressly states that this was the beginning of the Gospel. In like manner, John himself employs the word beginning, placed thus absolutely, in the introduction to his First Epistle, at which beginning he uses the same term (logos) Word, as if he meant to be his own interpreter [“That which is from the beginning…concerning the Word (logos) of life.” 1 John 1:1]. (The Racovian Catechism; Reprinted by Spirit & Truth Fellowship, pp. 63 and 64). *PROOF TEXTS* Mark 1:1-5 *"The BEGINNING (archeé) of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, “Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’” And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."* In Mark we have the word *archeé* referring to the beginning of both John the Baptist's and Jesus' ministries. Luke 1:1 *"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé) were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Gospel, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé), to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."* In Luke we have a reference to people who, FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé) were eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry, and were also ministers of the Gospel. John 2:11 *"This BEGINNING (archeé) of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.* A verse referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry John 6:64 *“For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING..."(archeé). A reference to the beginning of Jesus' ministry.* John 15:27 *"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me FROM THE BEGINNING."* (archeé) A reference to the beginning of Jesus ministry. John 16:3-4 *"These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you AT THE BEGINNING (archeé), because I was with you."* Jesus referrs to the beginning of his ministry. 1 John 1:1-3 *"That which was FROM THE BEGINNING, (archeé) which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the word of life (the Gospel). The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life (the Gospel), which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."* A reference to the beginning of Jesus' ministry. 1 John 2:13-14 "You have known him FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé)." 1 John 2:24 "As for you, see that what you have heard FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé) remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father."* References to the beginning of Jesus' ministry. 1 John 3:11 *"For this is the message that ye heard FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé), that we should love one another."* A reference to the beginning of Jesus' ministry. 2 John 1:5-6 *"And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING (archeé) . I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard FROM THE BEGINNING, his command is that you walk in love."* Two references to the beginning of Jesus' ministry. "In the Beginning" in the above verses all refer to the "Beginning of the Gospel." Christians of the first century would have understood John 1:1 as referring back to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, including John the Baptist's ministry of preparing of the way for the Messiah. This view was never lost or forgotten, as the quote above from the Racovian Catechism reveals. The question should be asked, why has modern Christianity ignored the Biblical interpretation? The answer is clear. The Church is protecting their belief that Jesus is one of three gods in their unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity. They base it on a faulty interpretation of John 1:14 that has been translated to English as "And the Word became flesh...." when in fact the verse translates accurately as "And the word came to humanity...." The word did not become anyone's flesh. (see my commentary on John 1:14). CONCLUSION: "In the beginning" refers to the beginning of John the Baptist's and Jesus' ministries. John was a Jewish believer in Jesus. He grew up believing in the Genesis creation account. It was a well established doctrine among his peers. John 1:1-5 are the antecedent to verse 6 (the introduction of John the Baptist). The Genesis creation has nothing to do with the introduction of John the Baptist in verse 6. Continued in Part 2.

@shhiknopfler3912

3 жыл бұрын

Any link to the original argument online?

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

“Scripture interprets scripture” what a lame arse excuse

Hey Dale, Common sense isn't so common ! Many who have posted here clearly show they even lack horse sense!

@CD-CH-EB

2 жыл бұрын

I get it, trinitarian scoff at unitarians, and ridicule us and mock us. Let's not do it to them though.

Excellent presentation. But you know Pastor Tuggy.... Common sense is so common after all.

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

Dr Dale Tuggy when talking about 'common sense is referring in reality to the 'plain sense of the scripture without twisting or allegorizing as the Jesuits are experts at. Let the CLEAR scriptures INTERPRET the UNCLEAR is a GOLDEN RULE of interpreting scripture. And COMPARING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE is the other important rule or standard. What is the BULK of scripture saying about this subject? Then we will get to the truth of the matter.

Luke 10:18 Jesus said I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven.

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

No one knows what that means 🤡

@Cking64

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park Jesus was there all the time. There never was a time that he didn't exist. Jesus is God almighty, creator of the whole universe

@Cking64

3 жыл бұрын

@@weknowthetruth6863 if Jesus was there when Lucifer, satan got kicked out of heaven, than he is God . Jesus was there before time began.

@HistoryandReviews

3 жыл бұрын

@@Cking64 No he is not! And not one book ever says he was kicked out because Satan was still in Heaven during the time of Job. Jesus is not God period!

@northoftoofar3772

3 жыл бұрын

Read it in context. Jesus was responding to the 72 disciples proclaiming their victories over demons. He was basically saying "good job".

Dale you are very good but what about Spirit-doesnt spirit exist before and after? Yes Jesus died but didnt his spirit live on. Before he was born human from Mary didnt his spirit exist? or ould it of existed before he was born of flesh

@meiyaalumameiyaaluma

2 жыл бұрын

Did Adam exist before he was born as it is told God blew in to the clay man's nostril the spirit (breath of life)? If Adam did not pre-exist then Jesus also did not exist.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

@@meiyaalumameiyaaluma Very, very good point. You are right!! The soul is the "breath of life (oxygen), our spirit is our mind/brain. There is, I don't believe, in the whole of the Bible that references man as a spirit.

@meiyaalumameiyaaluma

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 further reading Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know not any thing.” Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 says, I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

@meiyaalumameiyaaluma

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 in Hinduism there is concept of paramatma and jivatma. Paramatma means supreme self and jivatma means individual soul/self. In Jainism an ancient Indian religion soul has been discussed in detailed manner. Jivatmas are divided in to different categories. Vanaspatikya (ekendriya) Jiva - living beings with one sense - touch only Dwindriya jiva - living beings with 2 senses - touch and taste Treindiya jiva - living beings with 3 senses - touch, taste, and smell Chaurindriya jiva - living beings with 4 senses - touch, taste, smell and sight Panchendriya jiva - living being with 5 senses - touch, taste, smell, sight and hearing. ASanjini panchendriya jiva - living beings with 5 senses but without mind Sanjini panchendriya jiva - living beings with 5 senses and mind.

„And so to speak, Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham. For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.“ ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ Everybody „preexists“, so to speak as his ancestor. The bible does not say that Jesus preexisted as Mary. His point of origin is God.

Paul writes, “Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!” (Romans 11:33) In support of this he follows up with a passage from the Septuagint’s version of Isaiah 40:13: “For who has known the mind of the Lord (kuriou)? Or who has become His counselor?” Leaving aside the LXX’s textual differences, the Masoretic text uses the word YHWH at this point. Paul clearly identified the kuriou of his 33rd verse with YHWH of Isaiah. Paul then continues with the statement that “through(dia) him are all things” (v.36) That is, through (dia) this Lord, YHWH, everything was created. In Colossians 1:16 Paul then writes that “all things were created through (dia) [Jesus]”. This claim is also found in John 1:3 where the Gospel writer states, “all things came into existence through(dia) [Jesus].” So, how can (i) all things be created by both YHWH and Jesus, and (ii) how can this same Jesus be non-existent at the beginning if he was creating all things at the beginning? Tuggy’s theology is way too bumpy and seems to lean on far too much special pleading to be convincing.

@christskingdomiscoming5964

Жыл бұрын

The things that were created "through" him in Colossians 1; were Thrones, dominions, rulers and authorities! That is the subject matter under discussion in this passage. The "things created"are 'IN' the Heavens and 'IN' the earth. NOT the creation 'OF' the Heavens and 'OF' the Earth, Big difference! 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For byf him all things were created, IN heaven and ON earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:15-20 This passage is never referring to the creation events in Genesis 1. It is referring to the heavenly enthroned Christ being given dominion over those two realms. It speaks of Christ being given the position of "preeminence" in all of creation. As for John 1 then; "The Word that was God" wasn't a preexisting entity that was self conscious and aware, "the word of God" was literally that; the word of God and only becomes flesh later by verse 14. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isiah 55:11. The Word of God is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament, never is it a member of a Trinity or even a conscious being. It is the means by which God Created: "and God 'said' Let There Be Light...". It is the means by which God accomplishes his will. Jesus was the means by which God was using to accomplish his plan of redemption. Therefore the word of God was working "through" Jesus Christ, earning Christ the title "The Word Of God". Jesus did not exist in eternity as part of the Godhead, nor was he responsible for the Genesis creation, that is not what these verses are saying.

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@christskingdomiscoming5964 "The things that were created "through" him in Colossians 1; were Thrones, dominions, rulers and authorities! That is the subject matter under discussion in this passage. The "things created"are 'IN' the Heavens and 'IN' the earth. NOT the creation 'OF' the Heavens and 'OF' the Earth, Big difference!" Response: Tendentious and disingenuous hair-splitting! Truly, if you want to miss the forest for the trees, then the disciple John has the perfect riposte. John makes no missing-the-point distinction by straightforwardly stating the fact of the matter: "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life...He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him." Now, if you want to play this semantic game, John doesn't. He unequivocally states that EVERYTHING (i.e., panta) which has come into existence, including the heavens and the earth (i.e., kosmos), came into existence through Jesus.

@christskingdomiscoming5964

Жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 Jesus came to them and said, [“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me]. 19Therefore go and make disciplesd of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Mat 28:18-20 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11 21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him. 1 Peter 3:22-23 The event that is being described in Colossians, is we'll attested to in Scripture. These are some other examples of the same phenomenon. When you quote a text as primary evidence, you cant just simply then declare it as irrelevant, hair splitting or semantics, when someone shows you the error of your reading! You offered no rebuttal to my point, only dismissive assertions and opinions, backed up with nothing. Since you offered no counter arguments and went on to another scripture entirely, to make your case, then I can safely assume you have conceded the Colossians point!

@christskingdomiscoming5964

Жыл бұрын

846. autos ► Strong's Concordance autos: (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, "IT" (used for the third pers. pron.) (3) the same Original Word: αὐτός, αὐτή, αὐτό Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun Transliteration: autos Phonetic Spelling: (ow-tos') Definition: (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, "IT" (used for the third person pronoun) (3) the same Usage: he, she, "IT", they, them, same. AUTOS is the pronoun used throughout the Prologue Of John when referring to "the word". It can be either 'he', 'she' or 'it', depending on the discretion of the translators. Most translators will choose to translate this as 'he', simply because they hold Trinitarian presuppositions. There have been other translations in history as well as non English translations, that have used the "it" rendering of autos, including: The Tyndale Bible, the Bishops Bible and the Geneva Bible, among others. The Word, is not a self Concious sentient being and is said to be "made flesh" in verse 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14. The 'word of God' is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testement, It is never a separate aware, Self Concious entity in its own right. It is the means by which God created in Genesis: For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the WORD OF GOD, 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11 The "word of God" is the means by which God "causes to become" in the Old Testement. In the New Testement that 'volition' of God is working through the man Jesus Christ, this is why 'The Word Of God' is one of Jesus titles because God's word is operating in, and through The Messiah Jesus.Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. Jesus was always careful to credit God as the force behind his teachings and miracles. He had no intrinsic power of his own, it was this volition/word of God that was operating through him.

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@christskingdomiscoming5964 Listen heretic, show me the earliest record of your belief and then we can see who has the record of being orthodox.

Odd intro. This issue was extremely important in the early churxh.

Jesus does say givemeth glory I had before the earth was. Also he says only he that came from above will go back to heaven.

Why did David call Jesus Lord?

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

@Tyler B #2 Wrong answer! Lord is a title of respect, today we would say "Sir", In the past, really not so long ago servants called their Rich Land owners Lords, like in the popular mini series Dawnton Abbey, also in the middle ages Kings (i.e. King Author) and anyone of very high status was referenced as Lord. Jesus thru the linage of David was considered David's Lord via his birthright.

@djalmajunior8818

2 жыл бұрын

@Tyler B #2 not

@djalmajunior8818

2 жыл бұрын

@Tyler B #2 Thomas said this because of the miracle that he saw Jesus resurrected, he saw the power of God in Jesus, Jesus is God in the sense of being divine, he has power because it was given to him by the Father.

Peter stated that Jesus was preordained and existed in the foreknowledge of God!

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

Yet never mentioned at all in the “Old Testament “ total bs

@danielfriedemann7977

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder what he does with Colossians he is before all things and when he says what will u say when I ascend to where I was before

@coreymihailiuk5189

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielfriedemann7977 Exactly!

Common sense also says Joseph was the father of Jesus. That's how children are born. The virgin birth contradicts Torah, morality, and common sense.

@saycheese6773

5 ай бұрын

Wow this is straight from Satan

@puremusicdaz

5 ай бұрын

but not God's plan of redemption for all, based on your change of heart, not your station of birth. 'For God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.'

@jeff4truth

5 ай бұрын

@@puremusicdaz So you prefer believing lies your whole life.

@puremusicdaz

5 ай бұрын

@@jeff4truth well ike you i was born into a a religious cult that didn't make sense, but unlike you i therefore became an atheist at the age of 12 until about ten years ago. so unlike you my beliefs are born from an adult spiritual enquiry - 'what is the truth?' and not 'how does this fit with what i've already been told?' and then proceed to reject anything that doesn't fit with the cult i have been brought up in. that is the very definition of cult-like behaviour, and it's everywhere, not just in religions. do you see the difference in how we came to understand what we believe? not the actual differences, but how those beliefs were acquired? you see, that makes all the difference; i'm not going to argue with you about any point, because you're on a (ha) crusade, and i'm simply looking for the truth. your inability to express even one truth, but rather engage in playground one-upmanship shows that no light will be found in conversation with you.

@jeff4truth

5 ай бұрын

@@puremusicdaz There is no truth in Christianity. If you want truth, you will not be a Christian.

Genesis 1:1-2 The Spirit of God. IS the Father of the Man Christ Jesus. At His birth His mother is there. But. Where is His Father?? IN HIM. The invisible Father. Made visible. The fullness of the Godhead. Bodily. The Spirit in Christ is eternal. From His conception. Inseparable. One.

With all respect, I must say that in my opinion, this presentation and the propositions therein require serious gymnastics.

@bmangold83

5 жыл бұрын

Col 2:8. Jesus taught simple lessons for the common person.

@Sirach144

4 жыл бұрын

It usually does. Its pretty clear that he shed his nature and became a man.

@richardmorgan3938

4 жыл бұрын

Do you have anything substantial to support your opinion? The problem with the pre-existence of Christ doctrine was highlighted by Dr. Tuggy a few times when he mentioned the initial Jewish audience of the gospel records, or at least a first century audience that necessarily existed within a Jewish worldview. The Bible was written to them, not second, third or fourth century theologians, and not to 21st century theologians either. Just because later students of the gospel records read them anachronistically doesn't make their views correct. Misreading Scripture through more modern eyes than the intended first century audience is always a mistake. Read the gospel records through the lens of the first century Judeo-Christian worldview and you aren't going to come up with a pre-existent Messiah. So while Dr. Tuggy's words might sound like gymnastics to you it's only because he has the unfortunate problem of unraveling the anachronisms of later than first century scholars and their syncretism of the Bible with Greek philosophical thought such as neoplatonism. All Christians need to stop reading the Bible through the lens of third century creedal orthodoxy and realize that while the Bible was written for us it wasn't written to us.

@priscillajervey6134

4 жыл бұрын

In all due respect, in my opinion, Dale made his point "elementary" clear. Serious gymnastics is when folk want to believe Jesus "God the Son" enjoyed heaven with the father, before he morphed into a "seed" and embeded himself into the wounb of a woman. Since when did Jesus "God the Son" have a linage that was traced back to Adam. Oh wait a minute that was his pre-human nature, not his pre-existance spirit nature. Heaven help the foolish!

@richardmorgan3938

3 жыл бұрын

@@faithfultheology Yes. But here's the point: the Bible was written for us, but not to us. It was written in the context of the ancient Near East and the language applies to that culture, not to ours. It's only when we understand the cultural background to Scripture that it makes sense. Any Bible student worth his salt (is that a saying or did I make it up?) understands this.

Jesus Christ is the cloud of heaven itself, not a person, made in the infinite pulse of God at t = 0. This explains the pre-existence of Jesus as the creative principle from t = 0, the beginning of time. Simple.

Before Abraham was I AM. There is only one way to read that in greek. It is interesting to watch this video, but bold to teach this position.

@ajaniking111crystalbeat3

2 жыл бұрын

@Eremias Ranwolf not when read in context nor when reading the reaction of the Jews he said it to. But carry on. This is where I love people who haven't studied their whole lives telling someone with 15 plus years of study how to interpret things. This isn't the only time. This is just the time that is unshakeable when understanding the language it was written and the reaction of those who heard it.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it is, and I for one admire him for being Bold enough to do it. One might ask of themselves, wonder what position Jesus held in heaven? Was he already sitting at the right hand of God, had he already been exalted above the angels?? Just asking.

@ajaniking111crystalbeat3

2 жыл бұрын

@Eremias Ranwolf that doesn't bother me. Just don't debate from a place of authority where you have none.

@ajaniking111crystalbeat3

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 if you had a pastor worth their salt you would know the answer to this.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

@@ajaniking111crystalbeat3 My pastors' salt is exceeding bland. Oh well, I was just asked to leave my church because I reject the trinity and wasn't to cowardly to say so. You see they love their God-man, or (non-scriptural 'God the Son" and they encourage the laity to talk like dummies, and attest that the foundation of their faith is a big "mystery" - Really. I caught them contradicting themselves constantly.

Eternity isn’t just forward but “back there.” Back there, where we were all at, was a war in Heaven. Satan fell and was banished to this earth before Adam. Let us, the Father and the Son speaking, make man in our image. There was plenty of activity amongst the Gods way, way back there, in the span of eternity then.

@chriscuomo9334

6 ай бұрын

Did God foreknow that one day you would be born of your parents? Yes. If so, were you always eternal? Yes, in the sense that God knew you were going to be born. So if you’re eternal are you a god?

@dottiedogdiscovers

6 ай бұрын

If I am a SON of God then yes, which I am.

@chriscuomo9334

6 ай бұрын

@@dottiedogdiscovers you are a son of Adam. do me a favor: go pray to your three headed triangle thing and tell yourself you're not throwing pennies in a well. tell yourself you haven't fabricated a false god and placed it in front of YHWH. do it now. obey your master.

@dottiedogdiscovers

6 ай бұрын

@@chriscuomo9334 you’re a strange cat. God the Father is my Father, Jesus is my Savior and I was reborn, and the Holy Ghost is my guide.

@dottiedogdiscovers

6 ай бұрын

@@chriscuomo9334 YHWH is Jesus Christ btw

Jesus was born from the seed of David, from his loins, down through the line of MEN through a human dad. Just like us. The scriptures say so. There is no point in teaching the line of men down to Jesus if he had no human male progenitor. The scriptures tell you who he was but most don't want to believe it because they believe the myth that God was his biological father. The only human God created from scratch were Adam and Eve. Within them he ordered the creation of life to be by a man and a woman joining together to produce offspring. He didn't bypass that with Jesus, or he wouldn't be made, and just like us. Dale just laid it out clearly herein. It's in the scriptures but you have to see it with spiritual eyes. The idea that Jesus only had a mother is to support the myth that "Jesus is god."

@acts2583

2 жыл бұрын

Hey dear friend. Sorry, but I can't go there with you on all of that. Neither does Dale.

@TheChadWork2001

2 жыл бұрын

@@acts2583 Why not? Jesus was a man. Made just like us. The scriptures say so.

@Levi.YisraEl

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheChadWork2001 where does it state in the Brit hadasha that Yoseph was Yahusha’s biological father? Miriam came from the loins of king Dawid, which in turn makes it true that through the seed of Dawid would come the Prophet/Ha’Mashiyach spoken about.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." NKJV

Dale, I’ve listened to your KZread presentation. Here you were making several illustrations about why a person would not be a real human: (1) if aliens replicated human DNA; (2) if a demon took over a de-souled human body; (3) a person wishes her being to be that of a gorilla and is enabled to be so by the power of God; etc. I understood your illustrations and how they are all supposed to be ridiculous examples. However, it appears that you are saying that so long as at least ONE a human being's parents was completely human then it would be reasonable that the person born were human even without a human father, namely Jesus's sole parent is Mary, a descendant of David. But that makes as much sense physically as any of the other examples. None of the other illustrations could occur absent some sort of metaphysical intervention; otherwise it would be ridiculous. It seems to me that whatever one believes STARTS with a presupposition, either that a heavenly being CAN be born as a human or that a human being CANNOT come into existence unless one of the parents were human. I listened to your explanations about the different New Testament language. Common sense and Plain Sense are really not so different. Why would common sense allow a virgin birth, but not a coming-into-existence as understood in some of the 2nd Temple Jewish writings, or as understood by even the Greeks out in Asia Minor at the same time (e.g. "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!l" Acts 14:11)? Logically (and reasonably) the only unitarians who are consistent are those who deny the virgin birth of Jesus, not that I am saying I'd even have a problem with that.

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

The virgin birth is foundational to Christian belief as it is clearly written of in scripture. God CAUSED Mary to conceive without the usual means. Jesus called God His FATHER. This all makes complete sense and Jesus calls us into relationship with he and the FATHER through FAITH in him and his atoning sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

The virgin birth is foundational to Christian belief as it is clearly written of in scripture. God CAUSED Mary to conceive without the usual means. Jesus called God His FATHER. This all makes complete sense and Jesus calls us into relationship with he and the FATHER through FAITH in him and his atoning sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.

@purpleatit1

2 жыл бұрын

The point of what you call plain sense, is that it's a literal interpretation that isn't common sense. Such as the idea that being born again means entering your mother's womb again! A demon taking over a human body isn't a human, similarly an immortal deity taking over a human body - isn't a human. Common sense. And yes, this is an appeal to common sense alone. So that when we look at scripture which way are we going to go? With the common sense interpretation, or what some might call the plain sense interpretation that makes no real sense at all? That's when it's worth at least reconsidering these passages in question, and seeing if there is a common sense interpretation that consistent with the message of scripture.

Jesus said He was Yahweh too (John 8:58). Jesus preexisted with the Father (John 17:5) All things were made by Him and for Him (Col. 1:16) This guys is all wet and does not have God (according to John 5:18). Jn. 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, *_making himself equal with God._* According to John, calling Jesus the Son of God was equal to calling Him God. The doctrine of Christ, therefore, is the doctrine of the deity of Christ. 1 Jn. 4:15 - Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. The opposite of that verse is true as well. Whosoever confesseth not that Jesus is the Son of God (in the way John defines that term (see Jn. 5:18), God dwelleth NOT in him nor he in God. This guy would lose a debate with anyone who actually knows the scriptures.

@ken440

5 ай бұрын

how come trinitarians all get Col1 so wrong. Read it in context, not just pulling out V15-16 and saying "see he made all things!" Context is church, Jesus and not angels as head of church, the NEW CREATION. Of course he created all positions, authorities and powers, giftings etc, because he Jesus is head of the body, the new creation. He created all things in this new creation. its criminal that pastors and teachers in seminaries cant see this, Pal tells us this, and the intro page of my MacArthur study ESV tells me this. but no, its "oh you unitarians are defeated by Col1!" bah. religious foolishness, and lack of due diligence on your part dude.

@olliew7225

3 ай бұрын

@@ken440what nonsense. It couldn’t possibly be clearer: Colossians 1 “15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Same in John 1:1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. Same in 1 Cor. 8:6 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. They say nothing at all about “the new creation”. What part of “all things in heaven and earth” don’t you get? Visible and invisible, but somehow it is referring to positions within the church?😅 Thrones and dominions and rulers refer to angelic beings including the evil spiritual beings that we struggle against in Ephesians 6:12. You have to be blind not to see this.

@ken440

3 ай бұрын

@@olliew7225 why dont you apply english comprehension to these verses. 1Cor8:6 e.g. Read it again... for us there is one God, the Father, FROM FROM whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH THROUGH whom are all things and THROUGH whom we exist. I haver highlighted the pieces to take notice of. Jesus is the lamb of God. Think Passover lamb (he was cxrucified on a passover) so the passover lamb is PROVIDED BY the father. The salvation is FROM the father and is achieved THJROUGH the LAMB of PROVISION that all who come UNDER the PROVIDED lambs blood are saved..... By the FATHER. The lamb doesnt have to be God to save. The lamb is Gods PROVISION. Of course Colossians is about we the church, the body, it is written to a church group who are off track worshipping angels. You just gotta read an intro page in a study bible. "I ate all the cookies" does not mean I ate every cookie in creation past and future.

If a rich man gives me $10,000,000 to build him a house, and it's built through me due to my skill (and not through the rich man's lack of skill), then I am the creator of that house. The rich man is the owner, but he's not the creator of it. The money doesn't actually build the house; it's my skill which does. All the money in the world can't build a house if there is no skill through which a house can be built. Ditto with Jesus. The disciple John says that THROUGH Jesus all things were created. Jesus is the Creator (along with the Father and Holy Spirit). 'Through' has meaning and implications. Tuggy wants to push plain meaning aside and this makes his theology singularly duplicitous.

@iJoel00

Жыл бұрын

Yes - “through” has meaning and implication - as does the word “dia” in the greek, generally translated “through,” and it can also be on account of, because of, for sake of… so, not a reference to active participation in creation, but the reason for which that creation took place. In the account of John 1, the logos is not the messiah - the messiah is the life and light of men (v4), and the glory of the logos - the logos (or dabar in the Hebrew) is and always has been the speech or plan of the Father - His overarching, all encompassing plan for all things from before the foundation of the world was established - and within that plan (logos) existed the messiah - existed you, and I, and all other people, and things. The messiah, was the life and light of that plan - the glory of that plan - and when he came into the world, that plan was “made flesh,” or “fleshed out,” “came to fruition,” etc.. is was “through” the speech/plan (logos) of the Father that all things came into being - just as Gen 1 tells us… “God said…”

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@iJoel00 Tendentious special pleading. In order to push your heretical views you distort the plain meaning of Scripture and transform it into a form of Gnosticism that only the elect can interpret. John unambiguously writes that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life". Clearly, John meant that Jesus is the Creator. If your "understanding" of this verse were accurate it would mean this, "All things were made for Him, and without Him nothing was made that wasn't made for him." This would be about as odd a statement as you could make. Furthermore, it would be a bit strange given that Jesus claims equality with the Father in, inter alia, John 5:23 where he states that he is due exactly the same honour as the Father." A creature demanding that?

@rsk5660

Жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 John is not unambiguous. He is referring to the word. You think the word = Jesus others think itis God's word. When it says "Him" this is also ambiguous, since it could also be translated "It". Your reference to John 5v23: It is your opinion that this makes him equal to the father. Obviously God's representative needs to be given the same honour because he is speaking on behalf of God, which Jesus says he is doing.

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@rsk5660 1. “John is not unambiguous.” Response: I disagree: John is not ambiguous; he’s quite perspicuous. 2. “He is referring to the word. You think the word = Jesus others think itis God's word. When it says "Him" this is also ambiguous, since it could also be translated "It".” Response: So an ‘it’ took on flesh? A non-personal thing became a human? Pure paganism. And John testified to an ‘it’? And everything was created through an ‘it’? Not God directly but through an impersonal “principle”? Again, sheer paganism! 3. “Your reference to John 5v23: It is your opinion that this makes him equal to the father. Obviously God's representative needs to be given the same honour because he is speaking on behalf of God, which Jesus says he is doing.” Response: I find no words in John 5 claiming, in these EXACT words, that Jesus is God’s representative. You’ve eisegetically added these words to Scripture. Shame on you! It is not my opinion; they’re Jesus’s words. You’re being very disingenuous and avoiding the plain, obvious sense in what was intended. The problem for you, the one you’re assiduously side-stepped, is that if Jesus is merely a creature then he has straightforwardly claimed that we should timaó (i.e., value) a creature kathōs (to the degree that; just as, corresponding to fully (exactly)) we honour the Father, the Creator. Not only is your opinion blasphemous, it is unmitigable paganism. No creature can or should be valued to the same degree as what is due the Creator. Your heresy denigrates the office of Creator. 4. Your pagan heresy means you are not saved by Jesus: “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” BTW, what completes the incomplete “I am” here and what is the “I am” referring to in the preceding text?

@rsk5660

Жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 So an ‘it’ took on flesh? The exact words are, as far as I know, "the word became flesh". There is an advert where I live that says "The man who swallowed a dictionary". I think it is advertising a play, but I'm not sure as I drive past it and don't get reading it all, but I don't think a man actually swallowed a dictionary. I think it is more likely about a man who had a great vocabulary. When I was a young Christian, I heard a story about a young Christian who enjoyed listening to a particular speaker. Oh, said his older friend; "he has a cloven hoof, and chews the cud". Oh, thought the young Christian, poor man. He obviously was not aware that in Leviticus, a clean beast must be cloven hoofed and chew the cud. His older friend meant he was separate from the world and meditated on God's word. So, I'm just suggesting that as we get older, we learn to discern what is metaphorical and what is literal. As young Christians we are taught from John 1 that Jesus is God before we read the rest of the bible. As we read the whole of the bible for ourselves and think for ourselves, we may come to a different conclusion. This is not because we stop believing the bible, but because we think things out for ourselves. In Genesis God said let there be light. So, things were created when God spoke. God speaks using words. So, is there a connection between God speaking , and all things were created by the word? Maybe. I'm allowed to ask this question, am I not? In Deut 18v18 God says to Moses; I will raise up a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth. Is there a connection between God putting his words into Jesus' mouth and the word became flesh? Maybe. What is the point in encouraging people to read the bible for themselves if you are going to censor them as to how they should understand it. What if someone reads the bible so much that he ends up knowing it better than you? Oh, that is not possible, you seem to think.

😒🤔😶🥴😵😲

This is complete nonsense. Why have so many stopped being like the Bereans? Let the Bible explain itself. Jehovah’s Witnesses and other religious denominations are in disbelief and want to argue when I point to what the Bible and Jesus himself taught that in his pre-existence, he was in fact the “Jehovah” of the Old Testament. Jesus was the Lord (translated Yahweh/Jehovah) God before he became a man as we read in the gospel of John for it is written: “In the beginning the Word [Jesus] already existed; the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS GOD. From the very beginning the Word was with God. Through HIM God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.” (John 1:1-3) “Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the SAME GLORY I had with you BEFORE THE WORLD WAS MADE.” (John 17:5) Clearly written, Jesus tells us had pre-existence as the Lord God before becoming a man and would be restored to his rightful place at the right hand of the Father. Jesus told us that he is the one who revealed God the Father. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, so many falsely believe that God the Father is the Yahweh/Jehovah of the OT, but Jesus clearly disproves this for it is written: Jesus said, "This DOES NOT mean that ANYONE HAS SEEN the Father; he [Jesus] who is from God IS THE ONLY ONE who has seen the Father". (John 6:46) “And the Father, who sent me, also testifies on my behalf. You have NEVER HEARD HIS VOICE OR SEEN HIS FACE, and you do not keep his message in your hearts, for you do not believe in the one whom he sent. You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you will find eternal life. And these very Scriptures SPEAK ABOUT ME! Yet you are not willing to come to me in order to have life. (John 5:37-40) These are statements of fact made by Jesus himself, so what about Exodus 24:9-11? In this verse it is written that the "God of Israel" was seen: “Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the leaders of Israel went up the mountain and they SAW the GOD of Israel. Beneath HIS FEET was what looked like a pavement of sapphire, as blue as the sky. God did not harm these leading men of Israel; they saw God, and then they ATE and Drank together.” (Ex. 24:9-11) Jesus told us in his statement of fact that no one has ever seen the Father (John 1:18) or heard his voice (John 5:37). So who did they see and hear in the OT? Jesus Christ! Which totally corroborates John 1:1-3. Jesus said that scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35) and remains true to his word as always. Jesus was God (the Son, the Word, the Logos) of the OT. Jesus is the Word (LORD God) prior to becoming flesh (John 1:14). In Exodus 3:14, when Moses was at the burning bush, he asked God what his name was: “God said, “I am who I am. You must tell them: ‘The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.’ Tell the Israelites that I, the LORD, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them. This is my name forever; this is what all future generations are to call me.” (Exodus 3:14-15) Jesus tells us himself HE IS the LORD God (Yahweh/Jehovah), the I AM of the OT more than once in the following verses for it is written: “That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. And you will die in your sins if you do not believe that ‘I AM WHO I AM’.” (John 8:24) “So he said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know that ‘I AM WHO I AM’; then you will know that I do nothing on my own authority, but I say only what the Father has instructed me to say.” (John 8:28) “I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I AM’.” (John 8:58) “ I tell you this now before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe that ‘I AM WHO I AM.” (John 13:19) Who is the God of the OT? Jesus Christ! He said it in several verses, he also said, “I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end”. What is the beginning? Genesis. What is the end? Revelation. The whole book is about Jesus and the message he proclaimed about his Father and the Kingdom to come. What most people don’t get is that Jesus was the God (Yahweh/Jehovah) before he became the man known as Christ for it is written: “He ALWAYS HAD THE NATURE OF GOD, but he did not think that by force he should try to REMAIN EQUAL with God. Instead of this, of his own free will HE GAVE UP ALL HE HAD, and took the nature of a servant. He became like a human being and appeared in human likeness. He was humble and walked the PATH OF OBEDIENCE all the way to death- his death on the cross. For this reason God raised him to the highest place above and gave him the name that is greater than any other name. And so, in honor of the name of Jesus all beings in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will fall on their knees, and ALL WILL OPENLY PROCLAIM THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philipp. 2:6-11) “Christ IS the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things. For through HIM God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. Christ EXISTED BEFORE ALL THINGS, and in union with him all things have their proper place.” (Col. 1:15-17) Anyone who believes in the false pagan, man-made triune God known as the Trinity, is lost. If you limit God to a Trinity, you don’t understand his plan of salvation. Go back and read Hebrews 2. Who is the Godhead? Jesus makes it perfectly clear for Jesus said as it is written: “And eternal life means to know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God, AND to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.” (John 17:3) “We know that what the scripture says is true forever; and God CALLED THOSE PEOPLE gods, the people to whom HIS MESSAGE WAS GIVEN.” (John 10:35) Once Christ comes back with the Holy Spirt (the holy hosts of heaven, the breath of his mouth), those who believe will be given the same glory as Christ (Hebrews 2:5-10, Rev. 3:21)….as gods. After his death, 3 days later, he rose from the dead and was returned to glory just as he had asked his Father (John 17:5) and will return as the Mighty God and Eternal Father for it is written: A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, “Wonderful Counselor,” “MIGHTY GOD,” “Eternal Father,” “Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6) “Then the LORD will be king over all the earth; everyone will worship him AS GOD and know him by the SAME NAME.” (Zech. 14:9) "and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32) To God our Father and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be the glory!

A CHALLENGE TO THE TRADITIONAL TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:14 A typical English translation reads like this: *"And the word became flesh and dwelt among us....."* John 1:14 For the reasons below I have translated the Greek text of John 1:14 as follows: *_"And the word came to(egeneto) humanity(sarx) and dwelt in(en) us, and we discerned the glory of it(autos), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."_* 1. Strong's 1096 Greek "egeneto" has a broad array of uses in the Greek and is rendered using many English words. It is a verb: aorist indicative middle-third person. There is no specific reason to translated egeneto as "became" in John 1:14. "egeneto" is elsewhere in the NT translated as "came to" *_"The word of God came to John the Baptist....."_* in Luke 3:2 In the O.T. the same phrase "came to" is translated from the Hebrew "way hi" (Strong's 1961) which has the same meaning as the Greek word "egeneto." *_"Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite:..."_* 1 Kings 21:17 *_"The word of the LORD came to me, saying,..."_* Jeremiah 1:4 *_"The word of Yahweh that came to Hosea the son of Beeri..."_* Hosea 1:1 The word of God is put into people, comes to people, and comes to dwell in people, but nowhere does the Bible say the word of God becomes the flesh of anyone. Notice how Paul refers to the word of God being IN the believers mouth and heart: *_"But what does it say? "The word (logos) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the MESSAGE concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."_* Romans 10:8-9 Paul tells us: *_"let the word of God dwell in you richly._* Colossians 3:16 God tells Jeremiah: *_“Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.”_* Jeremiah 1:9 Similar language is used where God says he would place his own words into His Messiah's mouth. Deuteronomy 18:18 2. Strong's 4561 Greek "sarx" should be translated "humanity" which is a "kind" of flesh. Birds would be another kind of flesh. Nothing in the context indicates "flesh" refers to Jesus flesh. The next part of the verse supports sarx being translated as humanity by referring to "us"(plural). More than 80 percent of the time "sarx" is translated "flesh" it is associated with the sinful nature of man. It makes no sense to say the word became the flesh of Jesus because Jesus was born without a sin nature. Likewise, it makes no sense that the word of God would become the physical flesh of Jesus. There are no OT prophecies that support the word of God becoming the flesh of Jesus. 3. Strong's 1722 Greek "en" means: in, on, or among. "in" makes more sense because the word of God was placed into Jesus and it dwells in all believers. (Colossians 3:16) 4. Strong's 846 Greek "autos" is accurately translated as "it" (not him or he) when referring to the logos. The only reason a translator would choose the word "he" is to lead the reader to believe the logos of God is the person of Jesus. However, Jesus never refers to himself as the "Word" and neither do any of the Apostles. No Greek Lexicon defines the word as Jesus either. The way John 1:14 reads when the corrections are made is like this: *_"The word came to humanity and dwelt in us, and we discerned the glory of it(autos), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."_* The 12 disciples received the word of God (good news message) from Jesus. They would have felt the effects of the word of God coming into them and enlightening them with the same light Jesus had in him. They would have felt the effects of being full of grace and truth through receiving the Good News Jesus preached. As further proof to support my corrections from Greek to English I rely on Deuteronomy 18:18 which is fulfilled in John 1:14 *_"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him."_* Deuteronomy 18:18 There is a difference between the word becoming flesh and God placing his word into Jesus mouth. Not one OT prophecy states that God's word will become the flesh of Jesus. *_"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life."_* John 6:63. These scriptures are in conflict with the belief that the word became Jesus: John 7:15-18; John 8:28; John 12:49-50; John 14:10; John 14:24, because Jesus spoke the words that belong to his Father. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. Psalms 33:6 Note: "The breath of His mouth" refers to God's spirit. The word of God ALWAYS works in conjunction with His spirit. The word of God is spirit and life. John 6:63 CONCLUSION: The word did not become flesh. The word was placed into Jesus by God. The word came to humanity in the form of the good news message from God that was delivered through Jesus. Jesus' disciples received the word and shared it with humanity.

@choicemeatrandy6572

5 жыл бұрын

This is some appalling eisegesis.

@grantknott

5 жыл бұрын

johnspartan98 Nicely explained. Thank you. I appreciate the breakdown of John 1:14. It makes sense to me. I just wish it had that in at least some English versions of the bible.

@waynegoff3776

5 жыл бұрын

Very good translation thanks for your work

@jaysonwilliams8991

4 жыл бұрын

johnspartan98 I know this is 7 months old, but I wanted to let you know, this is really well thought out. I am coming out of 21 years of believing the trinity because God has shown me the inconsistencies in it. This explanation/translation of John 1:14 is about as close to what He has been showing me as I have seen. Do you have any other resources?

@choicemeatrandy6572

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park ....uh huh

Christ is God and clearly worshipped by people and all the angels Hebrews 1:6 so absurd to claim He is only a mere man.

Christ is the Eternal spirit of God... the Father. Why is this even a debate?.. 😂

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

3 жыл бұрын

Ah Oneness?

@raymondfoster9326

3 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 God is One with no other 🙏🏼

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

Well let me see. Because I think you are misguided. God said he SENT His Son. Jesus called himself a man, scriptures state Heb. 2:16 (..for this reason he had to be made LIKE his brothers in every way in order that he might become a merciful & faithful high priest in service to God. Because he himself suffered when he became tempted, he also had to help those who were being tempted." SINCE THE CHILDREN HAVE FLESH & BLOOD HE TOO SHARED IN THEIR HUMANITY. t

@raymondfoster9326

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 yeah Jesus is the mortal man and Christ is the eternal spirit of God.

@raymondfoster9326

2 жыл бұрын

@@MichaelTheophilus906 You shouldn't talk about Christ as deceived, and you do so as I only share what he said himself and is still in the bible today.

The amount of scripture twisting that is required to believe in the Unitarian position is wild

Jesus said, "I have come forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." (John 16:28) Note: 1. Where the Father is, Jesus was and then he EXited the kosmos and went back to the outside of the kosmos to the Father. 2. Jesus has 'come out of from' (i.e. exēlthon ek - a double use of ek) the Father 3. Jesus left where the Father is and entered the kosmos from without. Try agin, Tuggy, try agin!

There are immediate problems with Tuggy's opening gambit regarding the (non)pre-existence of Christ and his quote of John 1. If you take John 1:1 to mean the Word is "a god" and that nothing was made that was not made through him, then you have two creators: the God of John 1:1 and a god of John 1:1. Furthermore, throughout the Gospels people worshipped Jesus. That means you have to worship 2 gods. There's no getting around it: that's polytheism! Last, if everything that was created was created through Jesus, as the Scripture plainly states, and Jesus is NOT pre-existent and not eternal, then John's statement that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" is FALSE because Jesus must have been created and thus NOT all things were created through Jesus, namely Jesus himself. The only solution to this congeries of contradictions is to stay with the orthodox theology that Jesus is pre-existent and eternal.

@kamilgregor

Жыл бұрын

If I say "I cleaned all things in my house" does that mean I also cleaned myself?

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@kamilgregor No, because, per definizioni, you're the Cleaner, NOT one of the things to be cleaned. The cleaner and the cleaned in normal semantic communication are never the same. In any case, your analogy does not work (for one thing analogies never capture exactly the item about which the analogy is ultimately being targeted because if it could, it would not be an analogy but the item itself) for the very argument I laid out, namely: John says "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." To reiterate: If Jesus is a thing, then, in keeping with the clear logic of John's proposition, either Jesus created himself (a metaphysical impossibility) or Jesus was created. If the latter, then NOT all things were created by Jesus (i.e., that one thing being Jesus) and therefore John's proposition is self-refuted (on the [false] premise that Jesus is a thing.).

@kamilgregor

Жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 I enteted a house, I built a robot and the robot then cleaned all things in the house. When you hear that sentence, do you imagine the robot cleaning itself?

@lesliewilliam3777

Жыл бұрын

@@kamilgregor Well of course either the robot cleans itself or someone outside the house cleans it; but that is exactly what can be logically deduced from this instantiation of the fallacy of false analogy: garbage in, garbage out. But that is NOT what John’s text says. The ordinary understanding of "and nothing that was created was not created by Jesus" would be that Jesus is NOT one of the created things. This is easily comprehended from the Greek and the literal translation: “panta (all things)…egeneto (came into being)…choris autou (without him)…egeneto oude hen (not even one has come into being)” It's perfectly clear your robot analogy is tendentiously designed to have one think of Jesus as a creature. It question begs Jesus being a creature - and thus more like a robot than not - but the task you’ve assiduously avoided is to prove he is one. As John’s single sentence makes perspicuous, everything that was created was created by Jesus. When John meant everything, he wanted us to be in no doubt that that is exactly what was intended. Consequently, John’s third verse apodictically rules out robots, angels and any other creature heresy wants to squeeze in to usurp the Creator and a role that only the Creator can perform.

@kamilgregor

Жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 I mean, if you hear "the robot cleaned all things in the house" and you understand what it means without the need for the sentence to explicitly specify "but not the robot itself though" why would you think the same couldn't be what's going on in John? Imagine it is the case that Jesus was created and then created everything else. Do you think in that scenario, John would say "all things but not him". Why would you expect that? It seems what I'm proposing is a normal way of speaking.

This poster is calling Jesus a Liar! Why? Because he stated over and over again that he had come down from heavan to the earth and was then going to return. The 'Jesus' he is talking about is just a man called 'Jesus' ( as some are called today!) Dont listen to what he is saying! he might b a 'theologian' but not a Christian'!

@Psalm-pu2jq

Жыл бұрын

Hey Peter - I know you are well intended, but you have got a long way to go in the Lord and in the scriptures. Blessings.

@kiwihans100

Жыл бұрын

@@Psalm-pu2jq How patronising! Just because I dont agree with your unscriptural views! I suggest you read Gal 1:11,12 "But I certify you, bretheren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received of man neither was I taught it. but by the revelation of Jesus Christ". Throughout his epistles Paul acknowledges that Jesus had a PREHUMAN existance. You should read these with and open mind and then it might modify your human philosophies and reliance on human religious notions and views!

@Psalm-pu2jq

Жыл бұрын

@@kiwihans100 Hey peter - It would seem I struck a nerve! You are judging others and calling things lies. I am simply telling you the truth - you have a lot to learn about these matters. But in your mind, you already know everything. Actually, you have just bought into the "company line" of post-biblical Gentile Christianity. You need to start over and seek God for understanding.

Watching this video = his experience with Transformers 😂

It almost makes you wish for another persecution to see if they get their s**t together, they lure you with a message of love and forgiveness but once you're in is nothing but a circus, and this video is a perfect example to proof me right.

Jesus Christ did preexist but not as a Son, he was The Word which is The Father’s Word and Thought which proceeded not from heaven only but from The bosom (heart) of The Father himself, Therefore Jesus Christ is The Father in Spirit form as The Word, remember he said before Abraham was I AM” that’s the name The Father gave” not a Son” so he claimed to be God The Father, that debunked Trinity as a 2nd person who just has same deity, he said he was I AM, that’s The Father specifically, so there’s The Spirit Jesus Christ who functions as The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit, He sent his Word which is part of himself, equal to himself, functions in the likeness of himself, His Word created a body now we have The Father acting as the Spirit of The Son, The Son inherited his Father’s Name Jesus, his Son is named after his, So the Spirit Jesus Christ is The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit, 3 titles one Spirit (God) Jesus Christ in spirit form, who he was before the body, then we have The Man Jesus Christ, who is The Son, not God, He’s the fleshy body (add-on to the word which is The Father, that’s how the Father dwells in him but also in heaven at the same time” parts of himself” The Spirit Jesus Christ created The man Jesus and made him Lord and Christ Acts 2:36, he was made Lord and Christ by him who always was Lord and Christ, The Bible says the Rock in Old Testament was Christ in the wilderness, also Christ was in the prophets of old, that Christ and Lord was The Father, The man was made Lord and Christ by him as his representative” so Jesus preexisted not as a Son but as The Father The One God!

@IsJesusGod.

2 жыл бұрын

WHERE did GOD the Father say I am the SON? And WHERE did Jesus ever say I was WITH GOD the Father before creation? Or WHERE did GOD say the SON was WITH me alive before creation? You live in Cuckoo Land!

@DrBahiruLegesse-SCIsurvivor

Жыл бұрын

Is this oneness theology...?

@andretresvant

Жыл бұрын

@@DrBahiruLegesse-SCIsurvivor only one person is God, Jesus didn’t teach a God outside of the Father, neither did he ascend to another, the Father also excluded any one other than himself from being God, if there was another person we should recognize as God Jesus would’ve taught us, he taught the Only is God, if He’s God then his spirit is That father, not God the son or some other God nobody in scripture taught The Son was distinct but not separate, the human of the Son actually belongs to the Father’s spirit, see Acts 20:28 - The Blood of the Son is called God’s own blood, And 1st John 3:16 The Bible says God laid down his life, we Know God is a spirit which can’t die but if the Human life of the Son is God’s own, the he can lay down his humanity, which he created for that purpose The son wasn’t just a body but a complete humanity which functioned from bloodline distinct from the Spirit of God The Father which is the only spirit he said was in him

@DrBahiruLegesse-SCIsurvivor

Жыл бұрын

@@andretresvant how do you see 1john 5:20 where it claims the son is eternal true God ?.... & also philipians 2:6-9?

From BEFORE the creation of the universe, Jesus states that he possessed glory WITH (para) the Father at John 17:24, and the Father loved the Son from before the creation.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

Peter stated Jesus was preordained and in the foreknowledge of God - he was in God's plan from the very beginning. Do you think your mother loved you while you were still in her womb??

@christian.comedy.channel.2

2 жыл бұрын

@@priscillajervey8345 What is your point? God's preordination of Christ bear's absolutely no context or connection to a Mother's love of her forthcoming child.

Does it matter that this point. He is ressurcted and lives.

God creating the world by his word is like me using my hands to tie my shoes” not another person but a function of the Father himself, Jesus was That before he took on human nature and was the functioning as a son, so his preexistence wasn’t a Son but The Father, The Father and His Word are himself, Holy Spirit also - Of himself, Jesus Is really The Father’s name, he created a Son and named his Son after himself, so we have The spirit Jesus Christ (God The Father) working through the man Jesus Christ ( Son of God) Jesus consist of More than body, but spirit and soul as well, his body isn’t God, that’s what The Father was in, his Spirit was God The Father acting as the spirit of the Son, as we see the Son doesn’t have a separate spirit of his own, but The Father is his spirit, The Word, The Holy Spirit

@IsJesusGod.

2 жыл бұрын

If you believe Jesus Is the Father, you then deny the Father and the Christ 1 John 2:22.

@andretresvant

2 жыл бұрын

@@IsJesusGod. And if you don’t believe they’re One” you deny what Jesus said” John 10:30 - I and my Father are one. See what he means by that” Compare with Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Notice this” The Son, The mighty God and Everlasting Father is who this one individual is called” all in the same person” so it’s not another” it’s 2 natures of one God” Spirit and Humanity” Hebrews 1:3 tells you he’s The Father’s Person” not a separate person of himself” That’s The Father’s own body!! I hope you see it! This is Bible that said he’s both. Father and Son! Do you see it’s all in him only distinction is natures but the person is One only?!!

@IsJesusGod.

2 жыл бұрын

@@andretresvant John 10:30 The Correct Meaning. I And The Father Are ONE - in UNITY, AGREEMENT, and PURPOSE. Jesus DID NOT SAY or MEAN, I and the Father are ONE - GOD.

@IsJesusGod.

2 жыл бұрын

@@andretresvant You are in a false faith, probably the Oneness Pentecostal faith? Even Trinitarians correctly understand the Father is not the Son which denies the Father and the Son 1 John 2:22. Also read 1 Corinthians 8:6 and tell me where does it say the Father is the SON?

@andretresvant

2 жыл бұрын

@@IsJesusGod. Unity accord to the flesh because the Man isn’t God, he also prayed we have the same oneness he had as a man, but his spirit has a literal Oneness being The Word which is actually One and the same as God The Father himself” this is how the Father dwells in him, as his own spirit, The Holy Spirit was another function of The Father that came upon his not in, but The word was A function of the Father In him functioning as The spirit of the son

There's a lot of Trinitarian Trolls on this comments section. Dr Dale Tuggy is a great expositor of the Word of God and correctly shows Jesus did not preexist.

@kingjames5527

2 жыл бұрын

You're the troll. He's a great perverter of the scriptures, seeing he is a false teacher and is a liar. Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. He said he came down from heaven. That's pre-existence baby!

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingjames5527 Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son and the Messiah of Israel, the firstborn of GODS new creation but he is not Almighty God, the Father of all creation. 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28 is clear on that V24 "Then shall be the end, when he hath delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he hath put down all rule, and all authority and power. " V29 " And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him, that did subdue all things under him, that God may be all in all." Jesus is GIVEN AUTHORITY by the FATHER.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

I totally agree. Dale made a good case, far more than the silly oppositions put forth from most of these post.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingjames5527 Heal thyself physician!! Check out 1 Jn 5:10: It states if you don" accept the testimony God has given regarding his Son, you are calling HIM a liar! Baby you seriously NEED to study your Bible.

@RodMartinJr

2 жыл бұрын

Rosemerryn, as a Christian, we should not pretend to be "first" in our understanding of scripture, for none of us is omniscient. As a Unitarian, I disagree with Dr. Tuggy on pre-existence. Genesis 1:26, Genesis 6:3 and John 3:13 support pre-existence.

If you do not believe the pre-existence of Jesus. Why is the Word called God in John 1? If the Word was God the the Word existed before creation, therefore everything was created by Him and through Him. Unless you want to ignore that the Word is God. Also, Jesus says John 8:58 "Verily, verily, before Abraham was I am". What is He implying here that he was before Abraham?

@shhiknopfler3912

3 жыл бұрын

Why not before Adam and Eve???

@shhiknopfler3912

3 жыл бұрын

@Not Applicable I understand the Excuses. Is there anywhere Jesus Saying I am as Before Adam? Which is basically the Claim. John 4 25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you-I am he.” Basically only claiming to be The Messiah. John 8 he claims that Abraham saw his day's and rejoiced, meaning the day's of the Messiah. And I am Never God's name. Ehya in Exodus means I will be.

@shhiknopfler3912

3 жыл бұрын

@Not Applicable they also claimed to be descendents from their father God. Why not tell them right there hey that's me or Something.

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

@@shhiknopfler3912 John 4, woman at the well is a ripoff of a Buddhist story with the exact same thing. Guess who ripped off who?

@shhiknopfler3912

3 жыл бұрын

@@weknowthetruth6863 please explain

If you don't believe in the Eternal Godhead I seriously doubt your salvation.

@rsk5660

Жыл бұрын

Scripture to support this or just made up?

@chriscuomo9334

6 ай бұрын

If you believe in a godhead i seriously doubt your salvation

@ken440

5 ай бұрын

if you think there is a multi person Godhead then I seriously doubt yours.

@chriscuomo9334

5 ай бұрын

Trinitarians worship the three headed triangle thing 😂 I’m sure it’s not a false god that doesn’t actually exist

I don't know what Bible Tuggy reads from but mine clearly teach the deity of Christ IN THE SYNOPTICS. Here's just one example: In Matthew’s Gospel, chapter 12, Jesus and his disciples are walking through a wheat field on the Sabbath. The disciples are hungry and begin to pick and eat the grain. Some religious leaders see this and criticise Jesus’ disciples because what they are doing, according to a strict letter-of-the-law interpretation, is work and thus are breaking the Sabbath law (which, according to Torah, is worthy of death). Jesus points out that King David, a thousand years previously, when he was being hunted by King Saul, had entered the Temple and eaten the bread offered to God which only the priests are allowed to eat. Jesus’ point was that exceptional circumstances can overrule the law. The disciples were hungry, there was food in front of them, and so eliminating pain (in this case, the pain of hunger) came before any other law. Jesus then underscores the priority of mercy and make the outrageous claim that he was “Lord of the Sabbath”. This title, according to Torah, only belongs to God Almighty. In Torah’s second book of Moses, Exodus, chapter 31, God is talking directly with Moses. God says, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies.” God says the Sabbaths are his Sabbaths and that he is the Lord of them. Jesus claims the same office. No one can be Lord of the Sabbath unless he is God. YHWH says they are His Sabbaths, and no one else’s. That is, He is Lord of the Sabbaths because they are His. And so does Jesus. To use an analogy, if this is MY house, I am, by definition, lord of the house. Someone whose house it isn’t cannot be the house’s lord. Jesus has claimed he is Lord of the Sabbaths, meaning they are his. YHWH has claimed the same thing. Logically, there cannot be 2 Lords, one being the owner, the other not, and yet still 2 Lords of the exact same item. Furthermore, note that YHWH in Exodus says that, being Lord of the Sabbaths, he makes people holy. Jesus also says he brings salvation and eternal life: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life…Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you-Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" Also, if Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, as he says he is (making him YHWH), then this proves his pre-existence. Tuggy needs to tell us how many Lords of the sabbath there are and how many deity make us holy? On my reckoning he has 2 of each.

@RodMartinJr

2 жыл бұрын

You said, "... mine clearly teach the deity of Christ..." Perhaps this is confirmation bias. Every verse which supports the deity of Yeshua has at least one alternate interpretation, thus a bias toward "Jesus as God" would slant the ambiguous verses toward confirming that bias. So, your "clearly" only works for the biased. Christ admonished us not to be "First," but to be humble ("last"), for the meek shall inherit the Earth. There are numerous verses which unambiguously proclaim Christ Yeshua not to be God, thus converting the ambiguous verses away from the "Jesus as God" bias. No human is omniscient, and claiming absolute understanding of God's Truth pretends omniscience. People throughout the ages had biases and misunderstandings. They might listen, but they could not hear; they might look, but could not see. Their certainty (lack of humility) prevented them from seeing. For instance, the insistence of the priests of old that gleaning the fields is "work," but by the logic of simple physics, opening your eyes, moving your mouth, chewing, swallowing and every other bodily movement is *_work!_* Those who learn by rote, or through the lens of bias, have an impossible time learning the *_spirit_* of God's intent. For the spirit gives life, but the *_"ink"_* leads to death. I happen to think the speaker is wrong about the pre-existence of Christ (not Yeshua, for the body is merely a cloak the Holy Spirit wears). In John 3:13, for instance, Christ tells Nicodemus that only one person had ever gone up to Heaven! And then he identified that person as the one who came down from Heaven (to be born as Yeshua from Mary). This tells us not only that Christ (the spirit of Yeshua) had been the first to return to Heaven, but also that he had lived on Earth in an earlier incarnation and proved his worth in order to ascend to Heaven. Then, with the love of someone so close to God, he returned to Earth to help his siblings.

@lesliewilliam3777

2 жыл бұрын

@@RodMartinJr You haven't provided any argument (i.e. textual proof) for your case. Furthermore, when you claim "confirmation bias" against me this implies that God's revelation, AT EVERY POINT, is ambiguous. This in turn means that God has failed to communicate either clearly at best, or, at worst, at all. You'll have to take your implicit accusation up with him, not with me.

@RodMartinJr

2 жыл бұрын

@@lesliewilliam3777 Which case? I discussed several! Some of these don't require "textual proof." And I did supply John 3:13, or is your reading comprehension failing you? You said, "Furthermore, when you claim 'confirmation bias' against me this implies that God's revelation, AT EVERY POINT, is ambiguous." Wrong! It only implies that the verses trinitarians say support the trinity are ambiguous. The Shema is unambiguous. The examples of Jesus not being omniscient prove he is not God. At least one example of him admitting that he is not omnipotent also shows that he is not God. These are unambiguous, to my knowledge, since it seems that it is common knowledge that God is omniscient and omnipotent. There is *_purpose_* in the difficulty of scripture -- one of eliciting from the reader a profound humility in order to see past the *_ink_* and to the spirit of its intent. The 4th century trinitarians were indeed clever in attempting to be non-literalists, but they created a fiction which was only finalized in AD 381 -- the year "trinity" was officially born -- created by the church which excommunicated anyone who lost the vote, and later murdered those who dared to search for God in a way not sanctioned by the church.

@lesliewilliam3777

2 жыл бұрын

@@RodMartinJr All too much for you, Mr Arian? I'm still waiting for answers. Or are you running away?

So this man preachers against John 17:5. Hmmm … 🤔

@chriscuomo9334

6 ай бұрын

🤔 Did God always foreknow that you would eventually be sent into the world to exist in the flesh? Yes. Then are you eternal also? If J is the begotten son of God how could he be coeternal with God? He was begotten, so he began, so he is not coeternal. It’s not that he’s preaching AGAINST a verse, he’s preaching against YOUR INTERPRETATION of that verse. I’m sorry that your solipsistic view of scripture prevents you from considering outside views. To preach against your interpretation is not to preach against God, because you aren’t God. Your three headed triangle god thing doesn’t exist and you’ve violated God’s first commandment by fabricating a god and placing it before YHWH. Jesus is not God, but he is definitely a god ever since his ascension. Before that, of course, he was just a person, but a sinless one. Was Jesus’ sacrifice in crucifixion complete? If so, and if J was then fully God, how could his fully God self die? You can’t say that his human self died but his god self didn’t, because if so, then the death on the cross was not whole, it was partial, and that therefore his sacrifice was not whole, it was partial. In trying to elevate Jesus, trinity theory clumsily backfires on itself by lowering God to Jesus’ level, and elevating Jesus to a point which then prohibits his full whole sacrifice from being full and whole. Trinity is an 87-IQ level reading of about 15 bible verses and a 74-IQ level deliberate ignorance of the thousands of other verses which can be interpreted in no other way other than to prohibit that theory

@nicoladibara1936

6 ай бұрын

@@chriscuomo9334 I do not believe in “triangle, three-headed God,” I am merely pointing to the verse that says that Jesus pre-existed-that he existed with his Father in Heaven BEFORE his incarnation. Jesus is the Word of God-living Word of God (John 1:1). And a word proceeds OUT of the speaker. Jesus proceeded directly from God. He is therefore the SON of God (John 1:14; John 3:16). Jesus took our human nature so that he could die. He “emptied” himself (Phillippians 2:7) of divinity so he could die. Yes, these things are hard for us to understand, but we are talking about things of God. 2. John 1:7 is speaking against those who deny that Jesus CAME “in the flesh.” The word “CAME” tells us that he must have come from somewhere. And that “somewhere” is Heaven, where he pre-existed with the Father. And his coming in the flesh (taking upon himseld human flesh and human nature) harmonises with Phillippians 2:5-8, which says that, prior to his incarnation, he was in “in the form of God.”

There is a striking similarity between Dr Tuggy's teaching and New Age's view of Christ as an exalted human. In John 6:62 Jesus Christ asks Dr Tuggy and New Age gurus the following question: "What if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? Jesus preexisting his birth is a fact. Please don't twist Scriptures to fit your doctrine. Thank you.

Common sense helps you read the text? No, sir, it’s the Holy Spirit. Sure, proper hermeneutics are necessary, but this man seriously undermines the Spirit and is maybe why he can’t wrap himself around a tri-personal God. I mean why else baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit? Yahweh Elohim is tri-personal. Human soul, human spirit, human body. Either way, God is incomprehensible. This man seems foggy. Don’t really hear anything substantive. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:14) “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (John 8:56-59)

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park ok, so we disagree about the persons of the God-head but we agree God is incomprehensible. One question for you, what makes you think you’re right about understanding God?

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park antichrist behavior? You are saying you would worship a “special man” I’m saying I’m worshipping God.

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park since you conveniently use Scripture the way the enemy does I’ll remind you of some, John 1:1, John 3:30-33, John 9:35-38, Colossians 2:9, John 8:58, John 1:14, John 20:28.

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park Have this in mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-10 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.” Isaiah 46:22-23

@brightyafesi

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewoverholser491 Amen! I think you would clarify John 30:30-33.

Biblical Unitarianism, contrary to its name, is not biblical. The problem is their false view of the nature of God and the person of Christ. Biblical Unitarians differ from other Unitarians (such as Unitarian Universalists) in their claim that the Bible is the source of truth-a doctrine that Universalists deny. The term Biblical Unitarianism can be traced back to the 1880s as distinctions were being made between Unitarians who held to biblical inspiration and those who did not. Biblical Unitarianism represents the more “conservative” branch of Unitarianism since it has not jettisoned the Bible as a source of truth. Many beliefs of Biblical Unitarians are in keeping with orthodox Christian beliefs. However, they depart from orthodoxy on one major point in regards to their doctrine of God. Biblical Unitarians deny the Trinity, teaching that God is one being (hence the word Unitarian in their name). Jesus, according to Biblical Unitarianism, is not the eternal Son of God; rather, He was created by God in the womb of Mary. Jesus was later exalted by God and given authority over creation, making Him like God, but He remains a finite, separate being with a beginning. In denying the Trinity, Biblical Unitarians also have a false view of the Holy Spirit, whom they consider to be identical to the Father. Since God is “holy” and also a “spirit,” they reason, “Holy Spirit” is simply another name for God the Father. Biblical Unitarian views of God are unbiblical because Scripture clearly teaches that the Son of God existed prior to all creation (John 1:1-5), that Jesus is truly God (Titus 2:13), and that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father (Matthew 28:19). Denominations that fall under the category of Biblical Unitarianism include the Church of God General Conference (CoGGC) and the Christadelphians. Source from Got Questions.org

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

3 жыл бұрын

You are in error. Trinitarianism can easily be disproved from very clear scriptures. Trinitarianism is an invention of Greek Philosophy and the Roman Catholic Church. It is actually a gross heresy and abomination in God's sight.

@tariqskanaal8187

3 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 easily disprove the comment then

@wardmccomiskey2401

3 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 No it can't. You cannot disprove truth.

@djalmajunior8818

2 жыл бұрын

Kkkkkk

So a bit of a ‘shiff shuffle’ going on here. If, as I am confident, Christ came into existence in the womb of Mary - and did not pre-exist (save and except in the Logos of God our Heavenly Father) - as His Son and Messiah - and Christ was not nor did he have to be ‘divine’ / god-like / one of the divine persons of the Godhead as per Trinitarian theology, then WHY the apparent need (by those persons who recorded the inconsistent and dubious records of the ‘miraculous birth of Christ’), to claim that Christ was not actually the natural result of Joseph and Mary having sex during their betrothal. Nothing in Matthew and Luke’s writings - matches Jewish marriage/betrothal practice at the time of Christ’s birth. Just as - and indeed because - there is no logical need for God to only be able to send his Son of Man/Messiah - as a pre-existent, divine being / or as a divine being created in Mary’s womb - but by God’s miraculous intervention, so too, as a Biblical Unitarian myself, I challenge Dale Tuggy and Sir Anthony Buzzard and all of the Biblical Unitarian podcasters (whose efforts I hasten to say, have been and continue to be a timely blessing to many ‘Christians’ who’ve simply never actually thought about the doctrines of the Trinity or Christ’s asserted divinity) - to fess up to what I see as a potential Achilles Heal for Biblical Unitarian Christian faith and apologetics. How can we believe the words recorded in Matthew and Luke - suggesting two different Davidic lineages - and, moreover, argue (somewhat unconvincingly here) that Christ was still born of the line of David - even though Joseph had no part apparently in his creation!!! Golly gosh - if ever there was a need for us to simply read texts and question their authenticity or at least perceived necessity - faced not only with a plain and obvious human, rational, logical explanation for Jesus’s birth and existence- but moreover - that it would equally sit happily with the prophecies of him being born of the line of David (both through Mary and through Joseph!) - NOW is the time to do so!! Anyway - with another Christmas coming up -& me about to sing a wonderful service of 9 Lessons & Carols - as a Baptist in a traditional “let’s not dig below the surface of the Sunday scripture readings” ( & with my fingers crossed behind my back when I sing of Christ’s incarnation) Church of England service - I truly ask those who might be able to offer real, genuine, logical, rational, believable, arguable cases for / or not for the ‘miraculous birth of Christ’, to step up to the plate - and present their cases - for the benefit of all who Love God enough “to think about him!” Cheers Darcey (UK)

@chrystallapsomas2030

2 жыл бұрын

Zi know its a difficult subject but could we express ourselves more simply. The Bible vdoes talk of Christ's pre existence. I don't see that we can accept some but not all of the Bible. His miracles show something other than ordinary human characteristics.

@chrystallapsomas2030

2 жыл бұрын

Surely the story of Joseph wanting to divorce Mary because of her pregnancy puts paid to the possibility that jesus was Joseph's son. Also I believe Mary came from David's line.

@durhamgrigg1881

2 жыл бұрын

@@chrystallapsomas2030 i’m interested in your reply. Regrettably the issue I raised doesn’t lend itself to simple expression, and has been the subject of theological and philosophical debate and engagement since the earliest Christian writers. I’m not denying the miracles of Christ. Rather, I’m seeking understanding and clarity as to how, as a thinking, believing, biblical unitarian Christian, I can simply believe in the ‘miracle’ of the Virgin Birth - noting that it is clearly expressed in Matthew and Luke ( but interestingly not by Mark or even John). My point is simply that Matthew and Lukes accounts are clearly there in black and white, yet they seem wholly inconsistent with the tenets of belief of biblical unitarian Christian faith and the rest of scripture. (Perhaps you should read the other comment by Mr Danny Andre Dixon to this youtube 5m ago). I suspect he’s correct that as a Biblical Unitarian Christian, I can only hold my non-Trinitarian belief if I am able and willing to deny or can otherwise address, the writings of Matthew and Luke about a virgin, holy conception of Christ, in a logical and convincing manner. My open, observation and challenge was principally to Dale Tuggy (as I have a lot of time for his efforts and analytical philosophical approach to these issues.) Accordingly I’m hoping that he, or a Biblical Unitarian Christian of his calibre and intellect might be able and willing to take up the challenges raised by the virgin birth of Christ for Biblical Unitarian Christian faith.

@durhamgrigg1881

2 жыл бұрын

@@chrystallapsomas2030 I note your further comment about Joseph’s reaction and Mary’s Davidic lineage. Regrettably, you don’t appear to have understood the issues raised in my original post. I repeat, that my post was actually addressed to Dale Tuggy.as an honest and serious issue to be addressed by Biblical Unitarian Christians of which I am one. It appears that you are a Trinitarian Christian. I respect that, and wish you a happy God Incarnate Christmas if that is your faith. You may be right. Best wishes.

@chrystallapsomas2030

2 жыл бұрын

@@durhamgrigg1881 I am neither. I take the phrase the son if God as being rather someone sent from God. But I cannot accept the idea that he was the archangel Michael as the jehovahs witnesses believe. I'm afraid I believe in his teachings but cannot accept that he has to be sacrificed for our sins. Doesn't the old testament talk of eternal life and hell wasn't their idea of acceptance by God living a good life.

Arian heresy.

This is the worst presentation I've heard from this channel. I loved the debunking of the Trinity doctrine videos but this one is not biblical. The Bible clearly let's us know that Jesus existed before being miraculously born on earth through the holy spirit of God his father. 😤😤😤

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

People don't exist before they are born. Neither do souls separate from their bodies after the body dies but the soul dies with the body. Death is a 'strong sweet sleep' as Martin Luther taught. At the Resurrection we shall be raised body, soul and spirit to live forever with God and Christ in God's eternal Kingdom in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth Revelations 21 and 22.

@marjonylewinton4839

2 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 Yea people like you and me didn't exist before we were born but that is not the case with Jesus Christ. He existed in heaven with the father before he was born. As a spirit being he couldn't make that sacrifice to atone for our sins. So God, through His Holy Spirit sent Jesus to the earth to be born, thus he got a perfect physical flesh body that he can sacrifice to do away Adamic sin. Jesus wasn't conceived through sexual intercourse so he was a perfect being without blemish or sin. As he said, before Abraham was, he was. And also he prayed to God; Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.(John 17:5) Don't get me wrong, we humans didn't exist before we were born on earth nor do we have a "soul" that lives on after we are dead. As the scriptures say; the soul that sinneth, it will die. And we are all sinners that's why we die. The soul is the same as you the person.

@rosemerrynmcmillan1611

2 жыл бұрын

@@marjonylewinton4839 There's only one God and he doesn't know any other he says. There's no scriptural support for Jesus pre existing.

@marjonylewinton4839

2 жыл бұрын

@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 Did you read the scriptures I provided? I didn't say Jesus Christ is God Almighty. There is only one true God whose name is YHWH. But am talking about Jesus Christ prehuman existence as a Spirit being to specific, as an Angel of God.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree. Jesus existed in the plan of God. Someone can have a plan, but it doesn't really exist until it comes into fruition. It is stated that the Mana came "down" from heaven, but did it fall out of heaven, raining down from above - hitting everyone on the head! Ha! Did John the Baptist exit with God in heaven?

Crazy, he thinks that everything has to be explicitly stated in the Synoptics. Claiming to be God is the same as preexisting.

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park yet they never resurrected either so quite the difference. Resurrection confirms claims. Also when Christ calls himself the Alpha and Omega, that’s clear too.

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewoverholser491 Did Jesus resurrect himself? No. Can God die? No. Did Jesus die? Yes. Jesus is NOT God

@andrewoverholser491

3 жыл бұрын

@@weknowthetruth6863 I’ll pray for you. Arianism is a tragedy.

@priscillajervey8345

2 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park Amen. Thank the Lord, there are those who understand what they read, and don;t try to create their own Bible then end up talking like dummies because they don't understand what they read.

There is no case against the pre existence of Christ

@jesusisthechristthesonofgod

Жыл бұрын

The virgin birth is a pretty good case.

For this kind of reasoning you have to resort to the same kind of deception and intellectual dishonesty as the jehovah's witnesses. You read your own preconceived ideas into the text and twist the meaning of the original Greek. A Greek word may have 10 different meanings and you pick the one that best aligns with your theological position, instead of taking the context and external evidence into account. The question I always ask myself is, what's in it for you? Why lead God's flock astray?

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

JW are correct about a lot of things. Did Jesus resurrect himself? No. Can God die? No. Did Jesus die? Yes. Jesus is NOT God

You cause people to lose interest by trying to make jokes. Please just stick to the subject matter.

Sorry with respect you are doing the exact things you are trying to disprove. The claim that Jewish idioms speak of things of what is going to do in the future as if it is happening now and in the past to me is a fudge.

@remisofola5703

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park. Apparently you don't know the meaning of words, pre-existence is different from foreknowledge, I suggest you look at a dictionary for this, If you have any problems I will post this for your peruse. I dud not cite 1 Peter 1.20 as an example for the pre-existence of Jesus, Colossians 1.15 and John 8.58 refute the false analogy made by you.

@remisofola5703

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park. What is more, I hear many like you who engage in psychological projections, who don't know things, but think other are like them. Colossians 1.18 says distinctly that the Son was before all things that was made through him by God. You are peddling the nonsensical doctrine common to the Unitarians who are in denial of the truth that Jesus pre-existed by conception and birth through Mary. Come up with a cogent argument than than the worn line you projected.

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Park 1 Peter is a forgery, not written by the apostle therefore has zero authority

@weknowthetruth6863

3 жыл бұрын

@@remisofola5703 Did Jesus resurrect himself? No. Can God die? No. Did Jesus die? Yes. Jesus is NOT God

@remisofola5703

3 жыл бұрын

@@weknowthetruth6863. I have not claimed that Jesus raised himself up from death. He was raised God the Father. Agreed, Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God.

The arrogance in this religious fools makes you walkaway from churches. I tried to join one of this sects in all honesty but the fighting amongst them it's a big disappointment.

@harrylime9611

2 жыл бұрын

Tell me more.

One of the most laughably awful presentations I’ve seen in awhile! Strawmaning Trinitarians is classic tuggy argumentation.

@CD-CH-EB

2 жыл бұрын

I suppose you would say a straw-manning just because you don't have time to elaborate on every argument? Do you want the presentation to be 9 hours long? There are many other videos that elaborate on many of the things he said. And, Such vitriol is not very christ-like.

@RodMartinJr

2 жыл бұрын

Bradley, your own comment is less than desirable, because it offers no evidence or reasoning. You make claims without supporting facts and logic.

You try to reason out scriptures to fit your minds conclusions and do not believe or trust God's word as written. You must study using all scriptures then help of the Holy Spirit to truly understand. You call yourselves Christians but Jesys to you was created and a mortal man Then why do you look to him for salvation? If Jesus is not diety and indeed God then he shed his blood for nothing. You have no forgiveness of your sins. If you cannot put all the references about Jesus as the creator and divine son of God then you are persuaded about man's philosophy and not God's. When you die and see Jesus, the King on his throne and being worshipped you will know that he is God. The same God who will judge you and will use the same word of God that you draw your human reasoning from. What will you do then?