Belief: If Tolkien had lived ten more years all of the unfinished stories would have been wrapped up and all the characters would have been firmly established Reality: If Tolkien had lived another ten years we'd have a whole bunch more unfinished stories and the characters would be even more complicated.

@jamaigar

15 күн бұрын

But maybe we may have at least one whole extra completed story to develop some obscure part of the legendarium. Like one consistent Galadriel story, or some novel actually set in the second age, a la the bug tales of the first age. We'll never know

@viktormadzov5286

15 күн бұрын

​@@jamaigar Its an interesting thing to hope for.....but I severally doubt any substantial addition to his legendarium would have been made in that time. Tolkien was a perfectionist to a fault, constantly rewriting, changing his mind, reworking and tweaking his grand mythos, particularly in his later years. If he had more time, its very likely that he would have just spent it perfecting the Silmarilian, along with fleshing out, tweaking, or outright changing things that we've all already read in the works of Christopher Tolkein. If Tolkein had to spend any serious though to filling out any major gaps in his worldbuilding by the age of 81, then I dont think he would have miraculously done so in the twilight of his life

@sbeaber

15 күн бұрын

Reality: yet another 5 origin stories for Galadriel

@coreyander286

15 күн бұрын

J. R. R. Tolkien and George R. R. Martin are more similar on this matter than a lot of GRRM detractors would like to believe.

@istari0

14 күн бұрын

@@viktormadzov5286 Tolkien was outlining a massive revision to the Legendarium that would have Arda be a sphere in its beginning and the Sun and the Moon being created at the same time as Arda. So, if he had lived another 10 years, he almost certainly would have been working on that.

As for the strange expansion of Dale, I think it is likely that other tribes of Northmen who would be glad to join a kingdom ruled by the guy who killed Smaug. After all, the peoples of the Éothéod (and later Rohan) kept the exploits of their lord Fram against the worm Scatha in memory for millennia. They seem like the type who would follow a dragon-slayer in a heartbeat.

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

Dragon slayer and ring giver. Well maybe not the latter. But Bard became very rich from the treasure of Erebor and was also generous.

@DarthGandalfYT

13 күн бұрын

I just wish we more about the Northmen north of the Celduin. Seems like they had an interesting history given they survived whereas the Northmen south of the Celduin were conquered.

@alanpennie

13 күн бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT They seem to have been the most friendly to dwarves of all the men we know about.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

I mean it is clearly said there were many other peoples out there, and obviously there would be many more descendants of the original inhabitants of Dale when they fled! Smaug have not destroyed them all, we know that some people survived escaping, some fled to Esgaroth (like Girion's wife and child) others could have spread across the region, and join other communities of the men living along the Celduin river...in The Hobbit we have said straight there were men down south along the river! Bard rebuilding Dale meant that a lot of these people became his subjects, many came to him from the south and west, so also probably parts of the Woodmen (who also formed the Beornings etc.) and nearly 80 years till the War of the Ring or peace and prosperity meant probably explosive ppoulation boom :); the Northmen tribes of the lands between Celduin and Carnen rivers are mentioned also in appendices...as those who became strong thanks to the dwarven weapons and driving away the enemies from the east, in the time of Thrór rule under the Mountain! Even long centuries before that there were folk of Dale...even befor the CITY of Dale was founded heheh. The Dale-men were also given influx of the Vidugavia's kingdom who fled from Wainriders!

@zimriel

10 күн бұрын

@@alanpennie everyone agrees that dwarves are bros

Stuff like this is why it drives me up a wall when ignorant people (usually non-authors) contend that fantasy is the easiest genre to write because "you can do anything." No. Authors like Tolkien have to build their worlds from the unformed magma, usually with "real" history, science, theology, etc. as a guide, but ultimately, the legwork they have to do is significantly greater than writing into a world that's already fully formed. Fantasy exists where the world we know collides with the world of our beliefs/imagination; thus, as I see it, the rule for good fantasy is that, in order for the profound to be believable, the mundane has to be relatable. It's hard, as you said. But I think Tolkien did all right, all things considered.

@videocrowsnest5251

15 күн бұрын

Yea, basically the "you can do anything" is balanced by needing to think about implications, consequences, what it means for the story and world, etc etc. And then balancing all these elements around, in reference to, or otherwise to the benefit of the story being told. Introducing thing A then means thing A is a thing and must be accounted for unless reasons/circumstances exist to say why not. If thing A is handy and useful, would not everyone use thing A in situations where thing A applies then? Which includes the antagonistic forces. Handy thing A will also logically bring forth points B, C, D. It is also one thing to have all these elements in/figured out/thought on, and another in how they get implemented. Ergo - how are they written to be a part of the tale? Implementation is after all a pretty important part of the formula and where much of the heavy lifting of actually writing them in comes from. Fantasy is a very fluid and flexible genre, but does best when balancing the mundane and the magical.

@pavelslama5543

15 күн бұрын

Yeah. It´s extremely hard to create a world with a story that is both interesting and internally consistent (doesnt break its own lore). Right now Im also trying to write such a story. My world is of course inspired by others, such as Middle Earth, or Witcher, or Song of ice and fire. But also contains my own "legend", theology, and even some altered laws of physics and boundaries of reality. And its extremely difficult to keep all of that in mind during the creation of every plot point, or history of that world and the races and nations in it. And whatever stayed the same as in real life also has to behave roughly like in real life (while taking into consideration other changes that may affect it). Tolkien brought himself into a lot of troubles by, lets say, first building a house and then adding its foundations. Im not a writer, I write for fun only, and plan to publish my stories for free, but writing like Tolkien did would be a major pain in the rear end for me. I would not like to generalize, as I do not know how professionals feel about it, but I am convinced that its easier to first set up laws, principles and boundaries, and then build a story on top of them.

@kaihiggins725

15 күн бұрын

I’m finding that myself when I’m trying to build my own world for my book series. It burns your brain filling in the gaps to make the world feel real and not have blank pages never mind thousands of years of history, names, wars, peoples whom are now extinct

@coreyander286

15 күн бұрын

"You can do anything" would be more appropriate for fantasy of the Alice in Wonderland or Willy Wonka type. I don't think anyone is supposed to be asking if the logistics of Willy Wonka's candy production makes sense. I never was really bothered by Harry Potter questions like "How many students are there supposed to be at Hogwarts?" because even if the latter half of the series gets more serious, the early half of the series has that Willy Wonka whimsy. Hm. I remember reading that Tolkien considered rewriting _The Hobbit_ to match more tonally with _The Lord of the Rings._ But imagine instead if _Lord of the Rings_ and _Silmarillion_ were rewritten to be more like _The Hobbit._ The cave troll in Moria speaking in a Cockney accent. Luthien having a leprechaun brother named Tinfang Warble.

@istari0

14 күн бұрын

Agreed. Well done fantasy has to be about as difficult as anything to write.

I actually got that demographics problem with A Song of Ice and Fire even more. It always seemed like places and peoples get utterly devasted and yet somehow new armies keep showing up without any logistics or explanation behind them. I can see it for LOTR as well, but in ASOIAF it bothered me far more.

@Lonaticus

15 күн бұрын

Yep. The Riverlands and The North should be desolated wastelands by now, yet they somehow keep churning armies.

@pavelslama5543

15 күн бұрын

Yeah, and not just demographics. All the noble houses supposedly lived and shared that world for eons, while it constantly feels like that they would all massacre each other in a single year. And each conflict is settled though war, with many cities put to the sword all across the land. And each defeated army is massacred, each weakened house almost eradicated, etc. When you look at real history, its hard to find a house that was eradicated through war. Most came to extinction by having no legitimate heir (although most extinct houses also had a lot of illegitimate heirs). And when an army lost 10% of its men in a battle, it was considered to be crushing defeat (like for example France in the battle of Crécy, where about 2-8% of French army was lost). Westeros is absolutely drenched with blood even in comparison to the real medieval Europe, yet it still has means to recruit huge armies for another huge 3-way (technically 5-way) war.

@TheRealRealMClovin

15 күн бұрын

I would say the show more ruins that

@kaihiggins725

15 күн бұрын

Could you give me some examples please? I didn’t really notice that issue with Game of Thrones (well apart from the tv show)

@kaihiggins725

15 күн бұрын

@@pavelslama5543see we get told this though, we see houses get totally wiped out but we also see houses move, we see the Starks constantly let house Bolton live on. GRRM has said though he regrets having house stark be 8,000 years old

I cant recall the source, but I believe Tolkien mentioned that Eriadors climate changed after the fall of Numenor. In effect, the fall of Numenor caused a change in some form of gulf stream meaning Eriador slowly become colder and wetter. So Eriador slowly lost the ability to provide sufficient agriculture for major population centres. Lots of small villages but nothing resembling a nation state.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

I mean the climate change is also one of the factors in hobbit migration pattern: "...of the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of Eriador, especially in the east, worsened and became unfriendly." Those factors caused the hobbits of the Angle to leave further west. The lands of the eastern parts of Eriador was rougher anyway, the closer to Misty Mountains were the harsh highlands and moors etc. forested hills it was more rocky and less fertile, and a bit of plains in between Weather Hills and Mountains, the lands further west in the great valleys of the major rivers were otherwise.

@v1e1r1g1e1

Күн бұрын

Mushrooms. They ate f*ckin' mushrooms.

The thing about the watchful peace is that Gondor might have recovered their economy and army, but their population would still have declined, just like it happened with the Roman Empire to lose people but recover the economy and military

@serillen1904

13 күн бұрын

Could be that, but even if their population had recovered 400 years of peace would of made their armies lose any real knowledge of how to actually fight a battle. On top of that they probably wouldn't of been wasting money on a large standing army so the surprise attack would of wiped out a good chunk of their forces and left them scrambling to recruit and train new troops. Going by your roman example fresh legions were generally seen as ineffective until they had earned some experience and so they were usually given the easier jobs during their first campaign.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

The 400 years is too short for proper recovery, even though the Gondor's demographics ultimately meant not a lot of pure blood Numenoreans survived into the late Third Age, though there were plenty still of numenorean ethnicity during War of the Ring, yet they still would remain the longer lived people meaning gondorian folk lived longer than normal men...and so had the problem of slower birth rate and population growth...Numenoreans being longlived just breed slower than normal populations :). It takes a while for them to get going and truly increase their population size, they marry off late and have few children the exchange rate would be barely keeping up ;). And please 400 years of Watchful Peace....it doesn't mean that there was totally nothing at all happening: But during the Watchful Peace the forts along the Anduin, especially on the west shore of the Undeeps, had been unmanned and neglected. After that time Gondor was assailed both by orcs out of Mordor (which had long been unguarded) and by the Corsairs of Umbar, and had neither men nor opportunity for manning the line of Anduin north of the Emyn Muil. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 2, Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan: The Ride of Eorl But during the Watchful Peace (from 2063 to 2460) the people of Calenardhon dwindled: the more vigorous, year by year, went eastward to hold the line of the Anduin; those that remained became rustic and far removed from the concerns of Minas Tirith. The garrisons of the forts were not renewed, and were left to the care of local hereditary chieftains whose subjects were of more and more mixed blood. For the Dunlendings drifted steadily and unchecked over the Isen. Thus it was, when the attacks on Gondor from the East were renewed, and Orcs and Easterlings overran Calenardhon and besieged the forts, which would not have long held out. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix

@iliketrainsilikeplanes6047

11 күн бұрын

@@serillen1904 Please note that it's not "would of" or "should of", but "would have" and "should have"

"'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so." I think you are underestimating the dangers present in Eriador after the fall of Angmar, the Shire AND Bree were peaceful because of the vigilante of the Rangers who being few in number wouldnt be able to protect much More.

@gabrielmiller4176

11 күн бұрын

19 silver pennies was a dear blow to mr, butterbur and he was accounted well off in BREE

Here's a major plot hole: Angband, the great underground fortress of Morgoth, is a great rocky mass yet it must have contained hundreds of thousands of orcs and other creatures. So there is no farmland nor any pasture lands. So how did Morgoth feed them all if they were besieged on most sides and facing a vast mountainous icy waste in the north? How did Morgoth import food to Angband and, if so, how did he manage to keep his supply lines of food hidden from the Elves and from the watchful presence of the siege?

@poTato_777

15 күн бұрын

That's utumno, angband was a name for melkors kingdom

@KING-ly9ed

15 күн бұрын

A pretty decent explanation I can give. is that Morgoth, used his own power to sustain his armies. Just as he used it to “create” them, pretty much removing the need for food or water by giving them his own energy. Which could be another reason how Morgoth went from a being on par with all the other Valar combined to being weaker then Sauron

@oudviola

15 күн бұрын

@@poTato_777 Actually, Utumno and Angband are two separate fortresses, both in the north. Presumably Utumno was much further east, and was destroyed in the wars following the destruction of the Lamps. But either way, the issue of how the orcs bred so quickly and how they were fed is indeed unexplained. Also how they avoided severe vitamin D deficiency and weak bones. Although since the Eldar awoke under the stars, and there was no sunlight for a long time, they and the Orcs must have had some other source for vitamin D. How the earliest Men got their vitamin D is a problem.

@AdDewaard-hu3xk

14 күн бұрын

Overanalysis.

@MrChickennugget360

14 күн бұрын

@@oudviola considering that orcs hate the sunlight and avoid it, they probably don't have the same Vitamin D requirement as men do.

400 hundred years of peace is beyond enough. Just for context, the longest peaceful periods in our history were under 300 years (Edo period, Pax romana)

@brianj.841

15 күн бұрын

"The Black Death was a bubonic plague pandemic occurring in Europe from 1346 to 1353. It was one of the most fatal pandemics in human history..." Add 400 years is 1746 to 1753. Just think of all the European wars, etc that happened in those 400 years and immediately after-wards.

@mimovres9300

15 күн бұрын

@@brianj.841 okay, but what are you trying to say by that?

@brianj.841

15 күн бұрын

@@mimovres9300 That given enough time and resources (food, females, etc) a human population will recover. Gondor should have recovered from the Kin-strife, to name one example.

@hazzmati

14 күн бұрын

England had a population of roughly 4.5 million before the advent of the famines and plague in the 14th century. After that the population plummeted and it would take them close to 3 centuries to recover to the previous high point. Same counts for France.

@mimovres9300

14 күн бұрын

@@brianj.841 i see, thanks

I like fanfiction that fills Eriador with small fiefdoms and settlements, which still makes it an impoverished waste, but one with life and intrigue! DaC is pretty good at that, I find

@jamaigar

15 күн бұрын

What is dac? I'd live to read some good Tolkien fan fiction

@Tom-dm5od

15 күн бұрын

That a mod for a old total war game ​@@jamaigar

@jorikrouwenhorst7220

15 күн бұрын

@@jamaigar Divide and Conquer. a mod for medieval 2 total war.

@MrChickennugget360

14 күн бұрын

its not impossible that there are more people living in Eriador than we realize- There are some references to settlements in Eriador in LotR like "the forsaken inn" Its possible that both Breelanders and Dunlendings were trying to colonize the wastes of Eriador but orcs and Trolls were attacking settlements that got anywhere near the Misty Mountains.

@DarthGandalfYT

13 күн бұрын

I do love some Divide and Conquer.

The Lord of the Rings is metafiction. Tolkien presented himself as a translator of a red book he found. This, in turn, was written from the perspective of hobbits, who had limited knowledge of many events. Or contained embellished tales of the elves. This is an aspect that many critics do not see.

@bb1111116

6 күн бұрын

Agreed. There are other transmission tales written by Tolkien in his very large 12 volume History of Middle-earth series. It’s a mythology and not a science text book. But even with that, the world building by Tolkien was outstanding on every level.

@bb1111116

5 күн бұрын

PS. Some more about your mention of the Hobbits as the source material for the entire Tolkien mythology. Tolkien settled on this Hobbit source with the publication of The Lord of the Rings. - Below is more discussion of that with my basic point being that the Tolkien mythology in; The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and the Silmarillion histories; is grounded on a mythology (God, gods/angels, myths) which are intertwined with real world logic (languages, geography, weather) which are blended together. - Tolkien’s myth is not science fiction. The Hobbit writers were not scientists. They were story tellers of ancient tales. * My long answer; In Fellowship of the Ring; Prologue/Note On The Shire Records; not only did the Shire Hobbits write down their own traditions, many of the Hobbits had studied its “ancient histories and legends”. By the Fourth Age the Shire had several libraries “that contained many historical books and records”. * The origin of much of this was the Red Book of Westmarch written by Bilbo. Many copies of the Red Book were made including one in Gondor. The copy in Gondor was edited by those in the Minas Tirith which added sections such as The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (part of the Lord of the Rings Appendix). * Bilbo’s Red Book had “translations from the Elvish” from “the sources available to him in Rivendell” which were “almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days”. That would be the First and Second Age Silmarillion materials. * The Tale of Years was probably put together at Great Smials. * The Appendix A of Lord of the Rings states that Bilbo’s chief interest was in the ancient legends of the First Age. - The Appendix section about Durin’s Folk came from Gimli who remained friends with Merry and Pippin meeting with them in Rohan and Gondor.

There were other population centers in Eriador besides the Shire and Bree. The trolls in HOBBIT talked about "eating a village and half", which implies that there were scattered settlements. And in HOME Gandalf talked about there being fishing villages along the coasts. JRRT never talked about them in detail because they were not important to the story.

@zachwalker9420

14 күн бұрын

This is the stuff I find most frustrating in his world building. The map often looks and feels empty because we don't actually go to most of it. But from very obscure references we know that most or all of it is populated.

@MrChickennugget360

14 күн бұрын

@@zachwalker9420 its possible the map is flawed as it was drawn by Bilbo in Rivendell. Elves may have helped him draw up the geology, but he only drew western settlements since thats all he personally knew about. Thats why we know more about Bree and the Shire but not much about elsewhere. Likewise Gondor and Rohan are well understood as Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippen spent time there and had access to records in Minas Tirith. Basically, the regions that are understood are the Shire, Rohan, and Gondor, and Certain Elvan Lands that are encountered.

@DarthGandalfYT

13 күн бұрын

I'm conflicted about the "village and a half" statement. The troll does imply that there are people around, but 70 years later, Aragorn says that Men haven't lived in the Trollshaws for a long time. But there are plenty of obscure references that suggest that southern Eriador (Enedwaith and Minhiriath) aren't as empty as they seem.

@user-yy5xs6xj7r

13 күн бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT As I commented under one of your previous video, Aragorn probably didn't want to tell (wounded) Frodo "Yeah, a bunch of villages were there about 70 years ago, but they all were eaten by trolls or enslaved by goblins, which also killed my father and my grandfather", so he changed topic and started talking about ancient history.

@ajsimo2677

9 күн бұрын

@@MrChickennugget360 Yes, that would make a lot of sense. Just as the ancient Greeks, Romans & other civilisations of antiquity had vague knowledge of what lay beyond their borders.

Gondors military decline could also be due to powerful land owners buying up the smaller plots that supported the gondorian soldier class, similar to the late roman republic. The population is the same after 300 years... but the number of men who can afford arms and armor is much smaller.

Some of this could, at least in part, be explained by metaphysical influences. Tolkien wrote often about lingering curses and other bad magic (such as the corpse candles in the Dead Marshes). It might be possible that, in spite of a period of time relatively free from negative pressures, a population might not spring back as expected, simply because of a spiritual blight left over from prior disaster. It might not be explicitly noted, but enough "bad juju" could persist after some terrible war or plague that human and also agricultural fertility might lag for generations or even centuries. ='[.]'=

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

Eriador does look like a cursed land, except for The Shire which was one of the nicest places in all of ME.

@Raycheetah

15 күн бұрын

@@alanpennie I wonder if that quietly speaks to the nature of the Hobbits, themselves? =^[.]^=

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

@@Raycheetah The power of wholesomeness.

@DarthGandalfYT

13 күн бұрын

This is a possibility given how big a role spirituality does play in Tolkien's world. And we know lands (like the Brown Lands) remained desolate far longer than they should've, possibly due to magic.

@marieroberts5664

13 күн бұрын

​@@DarthGandalfYT or residual poisons...the slag mounds before the Black Gates would take a millennium or more to become fertile or at least less toxic, same as Minas Morgul. Toxic debris, even a type of radiation (there is naturally occurring radiation) as well as mercury and other poisonous byproducts of mass mining and weapons production, will take centuries to clear under normal circumstances and enough of that stuff and the land is ruined until the Valar return.

The biggest problem with Tolkien's world-building is my favorite part: the elven languages. Languages evolve generationally, and Arwen is only six generations removed from Finwë. The language that Arwen speaks should still be almost identical to the language that the first elves spoke at Cuiviénen. It should be like the difference between my English and George Washington's English - some slight differences, but definitely mutually intelligible. But Tolkien just enjoyed experimenting with his languages, so he squeezed in an impossible amount of evolution and divergence into only a handful of generations.

@dlxmarks

15 күн бұрын

That issue is magnified by there being some elves of those previous generations still around so that's not only divergence between generations but within generations as well.

@fairytalejediftj7041

15 күн бұрын

@@dlxmarks Yeah. With the Noldor and Sindar it's like if you and your friend grew up speaking Latin. He moves away, then some years later you bump into his teenage kids who are speaking Latin, but your own language has evolved into medieval Norman French during that time. It would make more sense if Sindarin was the language of Cuiviénen. The Noldor go off to Aman and invent Quenya just because they love inventing things. The Vanyar meanwhile are still speaking Sindarin and writing poetry about how cool the Valar are, because they're huge Valar stans. 😊

@kacpi1600

15 күн бұрын

The elves lived for thousands of years at a time, with an infinite lifespan. Language naturally evolves even in our lifetimes, just how accents develop when you move country. It makes complete sense for the language to evolve like that with new terms being constantly introduced for new concepts the elves discover and create, and they too have their own ‘slang’ which over time would evolve the language. We sometimes forget how long the elves actually exist for in the world.

@sanctionh2993

15 күн бұрын

"Languages evolve generationally" among humans with our lifespan, in our world. Even leaving different worlds aside, what body of knowledge allows you to apply it to Elves as well?

@fairytalejediftj7041

15 күн бұрын

@@sanctionh2993 The way the brain works. Tolkien said elves and humans are basically the same species (hence they can interbreed) even though their metaphysical destinies are different. So the linguistic patterns imprinted early in life will carry on throughout life, especially with so few other languages to interact with. With the exception of a few borrowed words from dwarvish which the Sindar had before the Noldor, their languages would've still been identical when the Noldor came into exile with only two new generations having come along since they parted ways.

The expansion of Dale could be partly explain with some of the Dalemen fleeing Smaug would find Laketown too uncomfortably close and would move farther away. But once Smaug was dead, their descendants would be favourably incline to accept the king of Dale as their overlord, mainly because of the trade possibilities. PS: IMO the biggest problem with Tolkien's works is that it reads like an English professor wrote it. :)

@zachwalker9420

14 күн бұрын

That last part is hilarious. I'd expand on your point further though. The men of lake town were prolific traders in The Hobbit so they'd have social and commercial connections at least as far as Dowrinion, which we generally believe to be by the sea of Rhun. Assuming that vaguely North man related peoples live in the general areas between Esgaroth and Rhun there are plenty of people either willing to follow a literal Dragon slayer (and slayer of the most fearsome dragon in quite some time if gandalf is to be believed) or who would love his protection and quite likely his money (Bard was exceptionally wealthy at the end of The Hobbit). He'd be able to buy mercenaries too, if he really needed to conquer another small neighbor. Not to mention his connection to the dwarves and probably a near monopoly on long beard made goods.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

I don't get that particular problem. I mean it is clearly said there were many other peoples out there, and obviously there would be many more descendants of the original inhabitants of Dale when they fled! Smaug have not destroyed them all, we know that some people survived escaping, some fled to Esgaroth (like Girion's wife and child) others could have spread across the region, and join other communities of the men living along the Celduin river...in The Hobbit we have said straight there were men down south along the river! Bard rebuilding Dale meant that a lot of these people became his subjects, many came to him from the south and west, so also probably parts of the Woodmen (who also formed the Beornings etc.) and nearly 80 years till the War of the Ring or peace and prosperity meant probably explosive ppoulation boom :); the Northmen tribes of the lands between Celduin and Carnen rivers are mentioned also in appendices...as those who became strong thanks to the dwarven weapons and driving away the enemies from the east, in the time of Thrór rule under the Mountain! Even long centuries before that there were folk of Dale...even befor the CITY of Dale was founded heheh. The Dale-men were also given influx of the Vidugavia's kingdom who fled from Wainriders!

One of my biggest gripes with the world-building is the sheer emptiness of the land, even when we know there were supposed to be populations. It irks me that we really only have like 3 and a half settlements named in the Kingdom of Arnor, like two or three for Rohan, and one for Lindon. Just feels like there's a lot of missing in general when you include the lack of identites for the Nazgul, lack of what happened to each Balrog, lack of anything for Rhun and Harad, and etc.

There was very little population growth in pre-industrial times. 50% of babys died - in a good year. Often there were plagues, famines, climate disasters and wars. In the early mediaval period population was lower than during the height of the roman empire. In Spain and Portugal the population droped from 9 million in the year 1000 to 5 million in 1350.

@zimriel

10 күн бұрын

It's politically impolite to mention nowadays but back then, Spain and Portugal had orcs. Unmarried young men whom the Moravids and Muwahhids brought over from Morocco, to raid and pillage Catholic settlements.

It's confusing that from the First Age, Men have shown to be able to drastically populate uninhabited forests, plains, desserts, and islands in just a span of a few years with a group of people, and without much aid. This was shown by the Edain's Beor, Haladin, and Hador. They entered Beleriand and easily thrived there for 500 years before Morgoth massacred most of them. Even the Easterlings managed to create a long lasting empire despite having their homeland turn from a vast fresh water lake into a dessert. And yet, these same Edains managed to cross the sea, enter an island and flourish again as the Numenorians after a few hundred years. Again, these Numenorians were cast away from their island, landed on Eriador and Gondor, and managed to build grand cities and realms in just a few hundred years before fighting the full might of Mordor but somehow, after a few decades of invasion, these same people can't repopulate and rebuilt Arnor... while Gondor, after thousands of years of uninterrupted rule, hasn't developed the rest of their realm into powerhouses. By the time of the Lord of the Rings, Mordor shouldn't even be a threat. Rhun and Harad should have been the main force.

If anything, this analysis understates the problem. War affects population density, but not in the way Tolkien uses it. Long conflicts create buffer zones where no useful agriculture happens. That will reduce the population density in proportion to the amount of territory that's left fallow. But human populations recover from wars ridiculously quickly, in the absence of modern birth control. Same with diseases. Your population density is going to depend on how good your farmland is, what crops you have, and what technologies you have. Full stop. There's a strangely specific detail that breaks the worldbuilding here. And it's potatoes, of all things. In reality, Europe didn't have potatoes until they were introduced from the Americas. When they were, they caused a population explosion. Potatoes turn otherwise marginal land into calorie factories. Even without potatoes, the human population density should be orders of magnitude higher than it is. But Tolkien wants stone age population densities with 18th century crops and technologies, and no amount of war or disease can make that work. Weirdly, Hobbits appear to have a more realistic population density, but no interest in expansion. The couple of times we saw them fight pitched battles as a community, they proved that they were capable fighters. So, the real question is why they haven't conquered middle earth with their 100 to 1 advantage in population per acre.

@ingold1470

2 күн бұрын

Lack of ambition (a defining cultural trait), and possibly Tolkien not realizing how technologically advanced even non-industrial English agriculture was by the 19th century. Every other race is vaguely in the Viking age technologically speaking.

Plenty of prosperous countries go into decline for reasons that can be understood only after deep study. France was losing population in the 1990s and this was a huge crisis until they decided the solution was immigration. Japan has famously been losing population for decades. I don't think it's necessary for Tolkien to explain why every demographic shift happened. He was surely aware of many other declines in history and took it as a given that it could happen and did not need explanation.

Very nice material, I enjoyed the show, but I have to add some criticism. This is a bit unfair towards Tolkien. Analyzing the realism of the world created by Tolkien makes as much sense as analyzing the world created by Homer. That's not the point. The world of LOTR is as realistic as that of Nordic myths or the legends of King Arthur, it is mythical-realistic. You can play with demographic analysis in the case of R. R. Marin's works, he wanted to create a world that worked the same as ours. Tolkien wanted to create a new mythology and with this in mind he practiced worldbuilding.

@Hero_Of_Old

15 күн бұрын

That's what a lot of people don't get. Its a mythological tale, its not some Marvel movie.

For me, the biggest issue in Tolkien's histories,whis also causes some of the demographic problems you mention, is just how long everything takes. Over 1800 years pass between Sauron forging the ring and his defeat by the last alliance. I get that the lifespans of elves and Sauron himself make that feasible but you would have thought the elves would act with a little urgency. Especially compared to the events of the war of the ring which only took 1 year

@gareth3035

15 күн бұрын

to be fair right after the forging of the ring sauron burned half of middle earth, and destroyed a major elven nation (Erigion), thus putting the elves in cleanup mode for a time. Also even after Sauron's defeat by the Numenorians at Tharbad, and the complete destruction of his forces in the west, he still had men in the east, and a constant supply of orcs. I assume this helped hinder their advancement on Barad-Dur

Great video and very good points, I have to agree, but I just want to point out a possible explanation for sudden population growth or decline. This being "magic". From LOTR we know, that even small amount of dust from Galadriel had very large impact on the birthrate and number of crops/food in the Shire. "The children, and there wer many of them, could bathe in strawberries" or something like that. With this in mind, maybe the Valar and Saruon were much more active than we think. If small box of dust from Galadriel, very powerful elf no doubt, could do all that it did, why couldnt Ulmo bless the water or Sauron poison the crops... Maybe the Witch king influenced Arnor from the very end of the War of the Last Alliance. But this is pure speculation.

@dllps

13 күн бұрын

Element Morgoth, basically the power of Melkor within Arda, which Sauron began to use after creating the One. The degradation of the Shire was done in mundane ways. It is always emphasized how weak Saruman was, he only had the power of his voice and even that was weakened. The degradation of Sauron and Morgoth was metaphysical. Furthermore, Galadriel is THE gardener among the elves, as Fëanor was THE artificer. She was probably the only one capable of reversing the Morgoth Element in the Lórien area, but she needed Nenya to do so in such an area and potency. That's why Lórien was so different from the rest. Galadriel managed to expel the Element Morgoth itself from that region, but this only lasted a little over a millennium.

Can I just say, as a friend of Chance Thomas and a LOTRO player I appreciate you using his music in the background.

Did Tolkien ever talk about emigration during peace times? Like, would Bree and Gondor men leave their homes to settle in a new place like Dale? Maybe the large available plots of land of a suddenly reconstituted Dale attracted people to move there, kind of like how colonials would expand and take land for their own?

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

We know of The Woodmen of Mirkwood, and it's easy to imagine a large population of humans throughout Rhovanion. Certainly we aren't told that the land is desolate and empty as we Eriador is shown to be.

@DarthGandalfYT

13 күн бұрын

We know about Northmen migrating to Gondor, but we don't hear anything about the reverse.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

@@alanpennie the Woodmen were known for colonizing new areas...in The Hobbit we learn of their settlers expanding into the Vale of Anduin: "In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the river-shores. There were many of them, and they were brave and well-armed, and even the Wargs dared not attack them if there were many together, or in the bright day. But now they had planned with the goblins’ help to come by night upon some of the villages nearest the mountains. If their plan had been carried out, there would have been none left there next day; all would have been killed except the few the goblins kept from the wolves and carried back as prisoners to their caves." The northern area of Rhovanion as once abandoned due to the fear of dragons: "...and he [Gandalf] knew how evil and danger had grown and thriven in the Wild, since the dragons had driven men from the lands, and the goblins had spread ..." The Eotheod centuries earlie were seeking for 'more room' and so drove off the remnants of Angmar folk in the upper vale of Anduin and near the sources of Anduin, then later these same Eotheod migrated south to found Rohan. The other case of migration is when the refugees of the south arrive in Bree-land, though it's hadly any normal circumstances they were fleeing the danger of war and so on. The Map of Wilderland from The Hobbit has marked some of the villages of the Woodmen in Mirkwood.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

Another case the migration within the realm: But during the Watchful Peace (from 2063 to 2460) the people of Calenardhon dwindled: the more vigorous, year by year, went eastward to hold the line of the Anduin; those that remained became rustic and far removed from the concerns of Minas Tirith. The garrisons of the forts were not renewed, and were left to the care of local hereditary chieftains whose subjects were of more and more mixed blood. For the Dunlendings drifted steadily and unchecked over the Isen. Thus it was, when the attacks on Gondor from the East were renewed, and Orcs and Easterlings overran Calenardhon and besieged the forts, which would not have long held out. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix

@ajsimo2677

9 күн бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT A band of refugees headed north to Bree in the autumn of 3018. One of them was the 'squint-eyed southerner' encountered by Frodo & Strider at the Prancing Pony. He was obviously an enemy spy, but the rest of his party seemed genuinely to be fleeing trouble in the "south". Of course, this is a small-scale example, and we don't know which land or lands it referred to, but it does show that migration of some kind also occurred from south to north (and possibly between different cultures of Men).

My biggest problem with Tolkien's world building? No plate tectonics! I can see Mordor being an intraplate mantle plume, and the Misty and White Mountains being remnants of continental collisions, but we need some active plate margins, with volcanic arcs.

That intro was so perfect. I was even more hooked than I already was

The demographics of LOTR are not that unrealistic. Pre-modern populations could explode historically fast - a mostly rural population without food problems, pandemics or wars could double in a 100 years. On the contrary a "civilised" population could decline even without famines or major wars if it was too urbanised, that happened to the Roman empire. Army sizes could some times be very large like the early middle-ages, especially if nomads or semi-nomads were involved. Eastern Europe was half-empty until the modern era while it's wars involved very large amounts of combatants.

Thanks, this was a very enjoyable and thought-provoking discussion. You didn't mention it specifically, but in The Nature of Middle Earth there are several chapters describing very extensive calculations Tolkien made on the increase in numbers of the Eldar between the Awakening and the beginning of the great march west to Valinor. He tried hard to come up with a reasonable scheme to have enough but not too many Elves, given their long lifespans and fairly low mortality rates (even with losses due to accidents or Morgoth kidnapping them). Presumably he might have gotten to do similar calculations for Men and Dwarves, given more time. Or perhaps he just was more interested in the Elves!

I think the important thing to take away here is that nobody is perfect. Our Good Professor was just as human as the rest of us. What matters is that, unlike others, to find Tolkien's mistakes, you have to dig deeper under the surface. This is to his credit. Now, compare this to the likes of Star Wars where some of them are obvious on the surface or, I dunno... the Rings of Power, where those mistakes are slapping us in the face. ;)

I think an explanation of the lack of people in Eriador could be explained in a similar way to Irelands demographics. Ireland has not recovered its population to what it was over 200 years ago. A big problem for it is that the people that are most ambitious and educated leave the country to England and the US. I think that the ambitious men in Bree, like in Ireland, would have moved away to better opportunities like Gondor. People have been migrating for as long as we have been around. An explanation for the difference in time of 200 to over 1000 years is the fact that Ireland hasn’t recovered its population in an industrial age whereas middle earth is in a more medieval age. Idk tho it’s just fun to think bout these things.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

Eriador state is pretty simple.....Eriador is post apocalyptic wasteland! :) There were only brief overal periods of peace there and with the total collapse of civilization the people turned into simpler more rural and scattered communities. There many dark creatures that also aided in depopulation, countless invasions of Orcs! Invasions of Orcs into Eriador are noted as significant event in the timeline: “c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.” … 2740 Orcs renew their invasions of Eriador. 2747 Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing. 2758 Rohan attacked from west and east and overrun. Gondor attacked by fleets of the Corsairs. Helm of Rohan takes refuge in Helm’s Deep. Wulf seizes Edoras. 2758-9: The Long Winter follows. Great suffering and loss of life in Eriador and Rohan. Gandalf comes to the aid of the Shire-folk. … 2911 The Fell Winter. The Baranduin and other rivers are frozen. White Wolves invade Eriador from the North. 2912 Great floods devastate Enedwaith and Minhiriath. Tharbad is ruined and deserted.” So…we have a lot of events across different periods, Rangers and their Chieftains also almost regularly died to fight dark creatures, Arador was slain by Trolls, so their raiding is not so rare, and we know that Trolls can roam fairly wide. These lands have been raiding grounds for countless centuries it;s a miracle that people survive there at all :). If not for the Rangers there would be even worse situation probably hehe.

The worldbuilding was done for a single ( or two ) story, even that from a Storyteller point like the old norse sagas or the Edda. I've never heard people complain that the Vinlandsaga wasn't precise navigation data

hope u do more of these bro, loved it, keep it up!! ;)

So, some general comments to begin with. While there was a rapid population growth in the last centuries of the real-world history, it was not always the case. In medieval period, while the birth rates were pretty high, due to child mortality, diseases, wars, deaths during childbirth, famines and so on, population growth was pretty slow, with some periods of decline when conditions were especially bad. On the other hand, in a period of peace and prosperity population could grow very rapidly. It seems that in the Middle-Earth situation is generally pretty similar. Addition of monsters like goblins, trolls and wargs means that population grows even slower if there is no organized force defending it. And Numenoreans definitely had lower birth rates, which also means that their population didn't grow very fast even during peaceful periods. Also, when we analyze Tolkien's writings, we often had to make assumptions about population sizes based on the size and strength of armies gathered by different polities. But that means that we see only the part of population that is controlled by the polities we are dealing with. If there are peasants who live in small hidden villages in hills and forests, who do not pay taxes or serve in the army, those peasants are completely invisible to us unless they are directly mentioned. Since Middle-Earth polities do not have a lot of capacities to control such population, this makes the Middle-Earth look significantly more empty than it actually is (this is especially true for Eriador, there polities are almost non-existent). Another problem that the chronology is obviously not complete. There are a periods of tens or even hundreds of years without any events. But that doesn't mean that nothing happened. Only major and important wars and invasions are mentioned in the chronology. Minor border wars and raids definitely are not. This is especially true if we are speaking about early Third Age (before 2500 or so). Now, to specific cases in chronological order: 1. Edain and Numenor. It seems that the numbers of 200 to 300 thousands is a mistake. In HoME 12 'The Peoples of Middle Earth' Tolkien states that the first fleet of refugees lead by Elros numbered about 200 ships carrying "between five thousand or at the most ten thousand" people, but also that there was a smaller steady migration of people over the next 50 years. So 20 to 30 thousands seems like a much more reasonable number, better corresponding both with the number of surviving Edain of Beleriand and the later Numenorean demography. 2. Arnor. There were way less Numenoreans in Arnor than in Gondor to begin with, and they suffered great losses both during the War of the Last Alliance and the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. So early kings of Arnor didn't have enough loyal subjects and the population of Dunedain recovered very slowly. Sure, there probably were a lot of Middle Men in Eriador at the end of that period, but not all of them were under authority of the kings, and many of those that were died during feuds between the three kingdoms and later in wars against Angmar. 3. Gondor during the Watchful Peace. As far as I understand, the Watchful Peace was not completely peaceful - there were corsairs in Umbar, nazgul in Minas Morgul, easterlings on the eastern borders, dunlendings to the west and so on. It is called so because it was not a period of constant war. Another reason why Gondor become weaker was the decline of central authority - the Stewards definitely lack the authority of the Kings, and since in the period of (relative) peace there was no need for centralized efforts to defend the realm, it is reasonable to assume that the lords of fiefs become almost independent from the Minas Tirith. It seems that the Stewards had to re-establish their authority over the seashores and the vales of the White Mountains. 4. Eriador. As I said in several comments earlier, the depopulation of Eriador is significantly overestimated. There were quite a lot of people, but they lacked political unity, so we hear about them only occasionally. The population of the Shire, despite several catastrophes, was clearly growing. Northern and southern borders of the Shire were natural - there were lands not suitable for agriculture ("from northern moors to the marshes in the south"), so it was impossible to expand further. And of course the Buckland was established as a colony. Breeland and the area around Tharbad probably had stable or slowly declining population, due to constant attacks of evil creatures and other problems (diseases, famines and so on), and were unable to expand. 5. Dale. This is the easiest case. Bard was a glorious dragon-slayer, had a lot of gold and was able equip his army with good weapons and armor made by Dwarves, so it was not hard for him to attract followers. It is directly stated in the text of "The Hobbit": "men had gathered to him from the Lake and from South and West". And with those followers it was easy for Bard and his descendants to expand their kingdom. There clearly were other human settlements south and east from the Lonely Mountain (the people of Esgarot traded with them), so this was the expansion of the Kingdom of Dale as a polity, not the colonization of completely empty lands by the people of Dale.

I love this very respectful look at the places that Tolkien could have worked more on...but the thing that needs to be considered Doylest or Watsonian, is time. Tolkien was a perfectionist procrastinator, and someone who kept tying up loose ends, who kept straightening out plot holes (which is why there aren't many, if any) someone who kept working on the world until his dying day. In reality, given enough time (or a canny letter writer to politely pose the question, and force the man to concentrate and find the answer - the population in the North recovered fitfully because the women were not having large families and were either dying in childbirth or were rendered infertile from the Great Plague), Tolkien would have addressed everything in greater detail, and as it is, we have the H.O.M.E. Series and the latest two books, People/Nature of M-E, because he was working out the kinks, great and small, to make the world real. They were never published in his lifetime, because he was still exploring the nooks and crannies, shaping and reshaping the Tree of Tales, and finding still more vistas and forgotten knowledge. At the end of the day, we are getting the bonus for free, when we got our monies worth with the basic package. The other guys and gals often have less of an excuse, and just throw things at us, hoping we won't question why we have six holes, seven bolts and five nuts.

Very interesting analysis. In the past I had some questions about this topic.

Every video is amazing! This has to be the best so far!

I believe that there are numerous reasons that Bree would have been a more isolated hamlet of negligible population. Being a rural and isolated village, it likely suffered incredibly during the harsher years, even if times were peaceful. The Hobbit recounts the year that the wolves invaded during the winter and how everyone in the Shire struggled to survive. Bree, being far more isolated could have been severely devestated. With accidents, illnesses, trolls, orcs, and other evil things creeping out from the shadows of the Misty Mountains from time to time, Bree could easily have suffered continual population collapses, much as many small communities in medieval Europe did. Worse still, Bree was the only community of size outside of the very peaceful Shire. 99% of Arnor was destroyed, which would allow for the lands between Bree, Rivendell, and the sea to be a population vacuum. I also have never had a problem with Gondor's population difficulty following 400 years of peace. The time was prosperous and easy, this leads to healthy children living into adulthood, which means families become smaller after a couple generations. The smaller families lead to slower population growth, which means that "recovered strength" does not mean that it has restored its prior condition, but only that the current condition may be maintained. The new mean is worse than the former, but is improved over the latter. Likely the border communities lost population as families either moved out of the kingdom to wilderness communities similar to the Beornings or reteated into the better defended interior of Gondor. Worse, such a peace leads to laxity and the military quality declined as veteran commanders and soldiers were replaced by inexperienced replacements. In less than 50 years, the military of Gondor would be ill-equipped for a major confrontation; after 100, a major war; and after 400, even a series of minor conflicts. Thus, after 400 years of peace, Gondor is not militarily prepared for conflict and needed the aid of the battle tested soldiers of nacent Rohan. Granting Erol the Young the land of Rohan strengthened Gondor on a military front it could no longer defend. Dale is a different case altogether. While the surrounding lands were wild, the threat of Smaug would have kept most major threats, such as most orcs, far from the area, and the Battle of Five Armies broke the strength of the Misty Mountain orcs for nearly 100 years. With roughly 58% of Laketown's population surviving thanks to Dain and Thranduil, the population would likely undergo a tremendous baby boom over the next 100 years as the territory is open to easy resettlement. This time also sees an increase in commerce between the Blue Mountains, Mirkwood, Gondor, and the Shire, which would lead men into the regions of Dale and eventually giving it a sprawling kingdom. It is likely that Sauron's final rise and fall occurred just as the lands between Gondor and the Misty Mountains were preparing for an era of rapacscious economic and commercial prosperity. A protion of this would have been abbetted by Saruman's long tenure of 260 years in Orthanc. It is just after this that Gondor returns to territorial control over lands that had been lost from before the lone of Stewards began. This would also have marked a change in the fortunes of Eriador as fall of Saruman and the Balrog would open Gap of Rohan allowing men to spill into the old territory of Arnor, which was promoted by Aragorn as High King.

@istari0

14 күн бұрын

Bree was a significant population center on the main road leading from the Grey Havens all the across the Misty Mountains and was also guarded by the Dúnedain Rangers. While some disasters, such as the Long Winter and the Fell Winter, certainly did happen, I don't think that's enough to explain why in an extended period of relative peace the population wouldn't have grown more. Bree was pretty prosperous so I think there would have been larger families plus some level of immigration. As far as Gondor goes, I think peace and prosperity would be good for population growth, because, as you say, more children survive to adulthood, meaning they have children of their own. Children who die at a young age don't contribute to overall population growth. And I don't see why the inhabitants of border communities would move away when things are going well.

Well, I've been thinking about it for a long time now. You are the first to actually acknowledge that Tolkien has problems )) I think he should have developed Eriador and Rhovanion much more carefully. And I think the geography of those lands is just too much for the story. "The Hobbit" could have fit into Eriador completely (with the companions travelling to Imladris and back - somewhere in the Blue Mountains, where he could have situated the Lonely Mountain). Mirkwood could have been placed in the north of Eriador, which would explain why that part wasn't populated by people. And I honestly think it was just a geographical mistake for him to create such a gap between Arnor and GOndor. One way out would have been to place a real desert in the south of Eriador, which would be too inhospitable for humans. But it woudl have undermined Tolkien's anglocentric point of view. With the advance of years I become more and more aware of his narrow views of the world (with all due respect to his philosophy of good and evil, mind you). I have always lived in a big and multicultural country (and my region especially so), and it nags me to see so little variety of people's cultures, languages, and even climates. I am far from all the modern agenda, but it still would have done us good to have this world broadened culturally and otherwise. I've been thinking over reshaping the map of Middlearth (just as a thought experiment, of course) to place the Harnen on the equator and the area of Forochel at the latitude of about 70. Thus we could legitimately have a desert in the south of Eriador, a forest in the north, and most human settlements would be somewhere in between. In this scernario, we could imagine that the Numenorians who came to settle the land at the end of 2 AGe were not very numerous and mostly settled near the sea, building (or rather rebuilding) cities on the coast and on big rivers. It is quite plausable that such cities could have been destroyed or abandoned for different reasons, and the population, already being scarce, just moved to the neighboring lands. We would still have to populate the region a little, which is partly canon as we can see that "some southerners" came to Bree in "LotR" (where from, I wonder). ANd we could place all the men's kingdoms near the Shire, so Bilbo's journey would have been just "there (to Imladris) and back again (to the area near the Shire)". As for what people could live there, we have some in "the Hobbit": the Beornings, for one, can't have appeared from nowhere, so we could place them there. All this region - from Bree to the ford of Bruinen could have been populated, though sparsely, by such people, and it wouldn't break any plot lines. Remember, the companions were in the marshes and in the forest, so, even with the country being generally populated, they could have still travelled in the wild. Climatically, all Rhovanion would be a desert, practically, which will explain why people don't really live there. However, Rohan will also be a desert, which opens up interesting opportunities for cultural diversification. It is worth mentioning that Tolkien didn't really describe Rohirrim properly (they were nomads, obviously, and he didn't like the idea of including something so non-European). In the case of a desert (and a very hot one) we will have to describe these people as pure nomads, who then could realistically have come from the North (which then would be a desert too). The only problem I'm trying to solve now is the position of Fangorn and Lothlorien (so the plot of LotR wouldn't have to be changed 100%). It's quite possible to make Lorien an oasis, which would add meaning to Galadriel's wielding Nenya, the ring of air. But Fangorn could be a problem, climatically, as it would be in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains. It is possible to make the mountains really wide and less tall, so the forest would be in the mountains. I also wanted to say a couple of words about Numenor. In my opinion, it was a little strange of Tolkien to claim that only 3 houses of Edain were chosen. Probably, there were more people in Beleriand (in Taur-im - Duinath, e.g) who could have been taken just for demographic reasons. And I personally think that it would be great to include the house of Bor (we know that all MEN from the house were slaughtered, but their valor in fighting their own kin for the sake of honor must have been rewarded). So women from that house (which was more numerous perhaps than the Edain) could have been taken to Numenor too. Moreover, those who lived in Hithlum must have been intermarried with the Easterlings, so they could have been quite numerous too (but, to Tolkien's grief, of a mixed descent).

@istari0

14 күн бұрын

Tolkien wrote a mythology mostly derived from European, particularly northern and western European, myths, legends, and tales. His Anglocentric view was intentional and I see nothing wrong with that anymore than I would if other authors did so for other cultures and ignored those of Europe.

@Hlaford29

14 күн бұрын

@@istari0 I understand your view, and it's that of the majority. I said it's MY view that I shared. I don't insist on it, and all I wrote was just a thought experiment. Every time I start speaking about this on forums, people say Tolkien had reasons to do what he did and I shouldn't interfere with his ideas. There are a lot of "What ifs" on YT and elswhere, I am just doing the same but more consistently. There is no point trying to change one thing in the plot and see how it all would evolve if the author himself used a lot of plot convenience everywhere (and people are trying not to notice that). If we write a "what if" scenario, we will have to deal with those moments and first make the original plot more realistic, consistent. It is not just patching plot holes, but also trying to optimise plot lines which were redundant or to subjective. It's our right to speculate as long as we stay clear of imposing our views on the broader audience (which is the case with different screen versions). I'm aware that all responses will be somebody's opinions, which is fine with me. I'm just trying to clarify that I'm not trying to impose my opinion - just sharing it.

It's the same with everything in life. Not long after I started playing music I started analyzing every song I heard and can't turn it off. Now I get kicks out of complicated music that I can't figure out while I'm listening to it heheh

Maybe the land around Bree was not as fertile as the land near Dale, or the weather was less favourable to growing crops. Some places are already at their carrying capacity, and population shifts very little over time.

To begin let me thank you for your video. I appreciate your research and your thoughts and the time and effort it took to make the video. I appreciate you going into these topics and sharing them. While some find the topic engaging, I really don’t. Certain areas of middle earth are populous at times and depopulated at others. Some places remain bereft of population. For me that’s just so Tolkien can tell a story. It doesn’t have to make sense, it has to serve his narrative goal. And I’m OK with that. On a side note, a major turn in fantasy has been the development of the systematizing of magic. Using a system means an explanation… Explicable action means science… therefore most current fantasy is actually science fiction. If I pick up a fantasy novel, I have already suspended my disbelief in magic. Tolkien didn’t explain magic and I am fine with that. Also, not everything is notable nor provable. When I was in school, we didn’t study the bronze age collapse. But now it is a recognized major event in world history and yet we can’t explain it. War, famine, disease, pestilence, etc. we don’t know all the factors involved. Sometimes we just don’t know. And I have to be OK with that. More than demographics, my bigger problem with Tolkien is the lack of technological advancement in middle earth. This is the first of your videos that I’ve seen so if you have addressed this in another video, that I apologize for bringing it up here. In middle earth, it has been less than 7000 years since the rising of the sun and the moon. Yet there have been a few technological advancements in that time. In the numberless years before the rising of the sun, the Ainur and the Quendi developed language, writing, smithing, architecture, horticulture, agriculture, fishing, the loom, fashion, domestication of numerous animals, and shipbuilding. The wheel, medicine, irrigation, and all other basic facets of society. I do not remember if Feanor’sfirst arms were of iron or steel, but in the at least 7000 years since humanity has not really advanced in weaponry. I would argue that the two greatest advancements were the fire of orthanc by Sarumanand the domestication of the mumakil by the Haradrim. The greatest technological advances of the Edain were in shipbuilding, embalming, and then masonry. The advances by the Eldar were in the creation of writing only visible by moonlight, in hidden doors, and in magic rings. I think there were two advances in horticulture; the uses kingsfoil and pipe weed. And I think all of this is intentional by Tolkien. The only advancements in war were made by the enemy. Tolkien needs the world to stay static in technology. This provides him a familiar place in which to tell his stories. It allows for his heroic and romantic characters to be courageous and honorable. It is not because there is a limit on the intelligence quotient for the Quendi, the Atani, the children of Aule, the Ents, and the orcs. The peoples of middle earth are not limited in creativity. It is not because they are limited in resources and are forced to live in the Stone Age as certain peoples are in the rainforest of the Amazon or in the Andaman islands. What good are the shards of Narsil when the current technology uses drone warfare and nuclear submarines? Who needs a sapling of the white tree when we have DNA testing? Tolkien wrote to tell his views on theology, culture, morality, ecology, romance, friendship, etc. in his own personalized setting. I’m OK with that. Again, thank you for your video. Thank you for your thoughts.

Can you do a video on the druedain? I was surprised you haven't made a video on them yet.

@AdDewaard-hu3xk

14 күн бұрын

Well, spell it right, to begin with.

Can you do a video of what is inside Baraddur considering how big it is?

Extremely impressive artwork, Darth! I am also mightily in awe of your research. It must have taken you quite a while to assemble all of this information. I admire your work ethic. Keep it up, my friend. Keep bringing Middle Earth to mere mortals such as myself!

please make a playlist with _all_ your videos together.

Can you do a video on all the Information we have what happend in eriador and further east in the first age? I know it´s not much, but it would be interisting nonetheless to puzzle a picture on the bits of information we have. As allways great video btw :)

First time viewer, really liked the video! Criticism was well thought out and clearly came from a place of care for the source material. Here’s my like, sub and comment

Awesome video bro

Great video as always! I have a question about Durin's door. When did the elves start calling Khazad-Dûm Moria? Since on the door they call it "Durin, Lord of Moria," it seems a bit odd to me.

@glorfindel4625

15 күн бұрын

That didn’t make sense to me either, but I’ve heard a possible explanation that Gandalf is reading it and saying Moria instead of Khazad-Dum to make it more understandable to the hobbits, which I can agree with. It still leaves the plot hole of it actually saying Moria on the door.

@user-yy5xs6xj7r

14 күн бұрын

Elves always called Khazad-Dûm Moria, as far as I know, since there are no other common elvish names of this settlement. It may be a local Sindarin or Nandorin name before the Noldor came to Eregion, probably. It seems that Sindar and Nandor were not friendly with Dwarves, so such an unpleasant name make sense. Also there is a Primitive Elvish form of that name, Mornyā. If that is not a backwards reconstruction, that means that the name is extremely old

The biggest problem is that the franchise is never gonna progress beyond what Tolkien had already written. We know a bit about Harad and Rhun but next to nothing about what's beyond them. Culture, politics, population - nothing. Middle Earth is just a spot on the map of Arda when taken as whole.

What was the total population of Bree, Archet, Combe, and Staddle? Were their Bjornling villages? How long did it take forests and farm land to recover from Numernoreans trashing the land around Vinyalondë? How many Dunlending were there and are we sure there weren't other population centres that just didnt get a specific mention? Like, the naratives in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings do specifically say that the adventurers in both parties actively tried to avoid human centres of population when they could. Just because the Professor didnt specifically mention every historical event that could explain different population growth/decline/stability levels doesn't mean there weren't any. He described so so much!

Perhaps the real explanation is that Tolkien emphasised the moral, the spiritual over the physical all throughout his work. In this way, the population changes in Arda are merely physical manifestations of the more important moral changes: this, Arnor and Gondor's populations declined and their power weakened because they were in a state of moral decline. iirc he is fairly explicit about that in the Appendices to LotR when he talks about Gondor

With Arnor's initial decline, if they had the largest losses in men of reproductive age during the War of the Last Alliance then that might partly explain it. I also recall from a previous video of yours that the climate and lands of Eriador limited population growth too. This latter factor, coupled with the dangers posed by evil creatures populating the wilderness of Eriador, might also explain the lack of growth in places like Bree and Tharbad. Also, there was the matter of the Long Winter which occurred during Bilbo's lifetime. IIRC, that event caused a massive famine and almost certainly a lot of deaths.

really good video! I always got confused with the time builings or cities needed to be built. The faithful numenoreans buildung so much stuff in the end of the 2nd age in middle earth, even helms deep and orthanc. Also the rebuildung of barad dur seemed quick to me in the end of the 3rd age. Feel free to make an hour long video on that...

Tolkien obviously didn't think it necessary to become so lost in the minutiae of world-building that it overtook the telling of the actual story. He engaged in it to the extent needed, but probably felt it better in order to get the story finished on time to ignore what inconsistencies there were than to have endless delays that would ultimately have prevented publication. If one absolutely needs an in-world explanation for why populations that should have bounced back following catastrophes didn't, it may be inferred that the servants of Mordor and its master did not sit idle during the centuries following, but kept picking away at targeted regions. Combine that with human stupidity-for instance, allowing things to crumble rather than maintain them because doing so was considered too expensive (see: Rome, U.S., etc.)-and it's not difficult to imagine that populations in certain areas of Middle Earth simply didn't grow because there was little incentive for rulers and subjects to alter their societies much, whereas in other places such as the rebuilt Dale, populations grew rapidly because Bard and his descendants engaged in aggressive campaigns to invite people back to a once-ruined, again prosperous town that was being rebuilt and expanded. No dragon to threaten the safety of the human residents, Orcs having remained in relative hiding until Mordor and Isengard began churning them out in preparation for war, and the gaps in Tolkien's world-building may be filled. I think Tolkien's genius in writing lies partly in the realization that it is all too easy to get lost in fleshing out a fictional world to the point the story as a whole suffers. The rule of thumb is to build just enough of your fictional universe to get the audience interested and immersed, but be flexible enough that the world-building doesn't create paint the storyteller into a proverbial corner.

Tolkien was his own biggest critic and was always fiddling with his work to make it more believable. If he had more time then he might have tighten the demographics issues.

Well explained and enlightening

Forget Men, the biggest mystery is the Dwarves, followed by the Elves. The "seven fathers of the Dwarves" includes no reference to "mothers". Presumably, Aule must have made some and Eru gave them fea. But it's hard to make that line up with Dwarves establishing large underground kingdoms throughout Middle-earth. Then there are the Elves, most especially the Noldor, who started fighting at the First Kinslaying and hadn't stopped until the early Fourth Age. How were they replenishing their ranks? The Valar only sent Glorfindel back as a special exception. Otherwise, Elves reembodied in Valinor stayed in Valinor.

Can you do the video on Mountains of the east or the Orocarni mountains, eastern dwarvish kingdoms, and the elves that lives or remained in the east

Was the Edain numbers of 5000, 15000, etc population size or army sizes? Like when the romans discussed having hundreds of thousands of Germans invading Gaul, that was the men, women, children and slaves. The actual fighters were in the more manageable tens of thousands.

@Tar-Elenion

15 күн бұрын

"The *Folk of Bëor* were the first Men to enter Beleriand...They were a small people, having no more, it is said, than *two thousand full-grown men;* and they were poor and ill-equipped... Not long after the first of the *three hosts of the Folk of Hador* came up from southward, *and two others of much the same strength followed* before the fall of the year. They were a more numerous people; *each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor,* and they were better armed and equipped... Some years later, when the other folk were settled, *the third folk of the Atani* entered Beleriand. They *were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bëor,* but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand...". PoMe, Dwarves and Men

@bundayeti

15 күн бұрын

Not sure where they got these numbers for the Edain. Tolkien gateway says the folk of Hador arrived in 3 hosts each around 2000 men strong. So that's ~6000 men, considering they are the most militarised, possibly just the soldiers. 15K is possible as a whole, but where did the number come from. Weren't the folk of Beor just a tribe small enough to live in a single location, when Finrod encountered them. That should make the tribe a few hundred members, unless it was some special conclave. A tribe of several thousand on the move would consume a lot of countryside, much like how medieval armies couldn't stay in one place or else they overhunted the nearby viscinity and began starving. As for the Haladin, they barricaded themselves behind a wooden fortification, ending up on the verge of extinction when Haleth took command and the noldor drove the orcs off. The math definitely ain't mathing

I found this fascinating, and you touched on several things I'd never considered before, or never thought about too deeply. OK - not sure if you read all the comments or not, but just on the offchance you do would you consider answering a question that has always bugged me. Did the nine Ringwraiths actually wear their nine Rings of Power? i.e. When the Witch King met his fate at the hands of Eowyn, did he have one of the rings on his finger? Did it fall to the ground after his passing? Or, as some people seem to believe, did 'Sauron reclaim them all' and the Ringwraiths no longer needed to physically wear their rings?

@dlevi67

15 күн бұрын

Tolkien is pretty clear on the matter in his letters - the rings were with Sauron. There is a brief paragraph in History of Middle Earth where a ring is returned to the Witch King to increase his power, but Tolkien seems to have discarded the idea.

This video was great, even to the standards of this channel. Lot of stuff I never thought of, or wasn't aware of to begin with. Cheers to you and whoever suggested this topic to you.

Don't mix up life expectancy at birth for life expectancy of an adult. Death in childbirth or before the age of 5 was very high but not for like a 30 year old

First off, great video. I think you make great points on all fronts and are very fair and balanced in your criticism, and the video itself is produced very well and was easy and enjoyable to watch and digest. In relation to most lore we have on histories and background info on peoples, I.e. the meat and potatoes of world building are not technically cannon but we’re still works in progress, though I’m sure you know that and making videos context may get lost. That meaning that the rules were not as frequently ignored as you say, but we’re yet to be fully applied for a final version. And as far as in cannon I agree largely with your points on Gondor and Eriador but I think you being too broad with your assumptions. The north was largely inhospitable because of some natural (total economic and social isolation, enough criminal elements to keep the rangers to busy to grow, no government at all, largely unusable land in all directions except northward, and at least initially and extremely traumatized population that most likely were just the few people who didn’t move to Gondor after the war) and more supernatural reasons(murderous trees, barrow weights, orc and wolf raids, an endemic troll population nearby, ect) but they still expanded enough to establish 3 separate settlements in their local vicinity to create a isolated economy and society that was not given any reason to improve its status. And I think Gondor’s general decline is not outrageous as it is similar to the eastern Roman’s, where they were still up and swinging but at any point where they weren’t dominating everything around them they were deteriorating at ridiculous rates due to the chaos of poor and illegitimate rulers and not exactly super dedicated vassals, as they were less concerned with the empire and more with their own domains, so would support wars less often even if there was a recovery period overall. Anyways that’s my rant for today. I hope it comes off good natured and that everyone enjoys stimulating food for thought.

Yes there are writings of Northmen outside Dale's and Esgaroth's control living around the Celduin. The Dwarves of the Iron Hills likely also traded for food with humans living on/around the Carnen. Dorwinion also traded with Thranduil's people and with how Laketown helped transport the goods, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more settlements further south to help facilitate the trade up and down that long river, especially in the wild lands of eastern Rhovanion where boats could easily get intercepted without protection. Besides, as moderately strong and prosperous the Bardings' realm seemed in the beginning of the War of the Ring, let's not forget how quickly the Easterlings overpowered them from the Carnen all the way to Dale, taking Dale and driving the surviving Bardings to seek shelter with Durin's Folk in Erebor. the Dale-Lands kingdom really does seem more of a confederation of Northmen who just thought they'd fare best with Bard's successors but hadn't really quite consolidated.

The issue is that Tolkien created several different worlds in his Legendarium: Book of Lost Tales, 1930 Silmarillion, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and his post LOTR world which tried and failed to reconcile the Silmarillion world with the LOTR world.

You don't have to balance that equation all on the Gondor side. There are two parties involved in a conflict. Maybe Gondor DID recover during those 400 years, but nonetheless the force that came against them the next time was just that much stronger too. No matter how big and strong you are, a strong ENOUGH adversary can run you over.

I thought Numenor was a "thank you gift" for the service those Men had done in the war against Morgoth. It seems a little off to me to extend that thank you to massive numbers who had not participated in that effort.

In the words of Macho Mandolph, "You shall not pass, brother"!

Very interesting thanks. Agree with many of the points made and also some of the recent comments I've read. A few ideas of my own. a) Agree with the revival of Dale that there are probably a lot of related Northmen outside Rivertown especially since it seems that Smaug was relatively inactive after the sack of Dale and Erebor until the group arrived and roused him by stealing some of his treasure. Also as stated Bard as a dragon slayer and a wealth man could easily attract many smaller settlements to his rule, under his protection while the wealth of the core of the kingdom would attract many into its key settlements. b) Also agree with concerns about the initial populating of Numenor. The battered state of the Edain when the Valar finally raise themselves to intervene was pretty bad and then they were among those that rallied to the Valar's call in the War of Wrath which is supposed to have lasted ~50 years and was so destructive it destroyed a sub-continent. I can't really see their numbers being boosted by other Edain from east of mountains as it mentions in the Silmarillion that the Edain that came west were fleeing the influence of Melkor in those lands and the latter men who did arrive were mostly corrupted by his evil and hostile to the enemies of Melkor. As such I can't really see any significant additional Edain coming from further east. c) The failure of both Arnor and Gondor to grow/recover in periods of peace, demographically if not militarily does seem odd in the cases you mention. Especially with Arnor that should be a fertile and prosperous land in times of peace. d) As others have point out one huge demographic problem is with the orcs who seem to swell into huge forces despite frequent massive losses and often a lack of any facility to sustain them. Then at other times they largely disappear until another rising of dark forces occurs. Its suggested they are corrupted elves because its claimed that Melkor can't generate living things himself although that seems to be contradicted by the latter presence of trolls and dragons, both stated as having been 'made' by Melkor. Some people have suggested magic in some form and given the situation in a number of cases that seems to be the only practical cause, although orcs do seen to be very common in locations such as the Misty Mts even when no dark lords are active. Force evolution under Melkor might make them far more fertile/capable of increasing numbers rapidly but you do have the problem that this corruption seems a permanent issue. e) For me the biggest single logical flaw in Tolkien's universe is the decision of the Valar when they have the world to shape as they initially came to Middle Earth to do, which they rejected, both after their initial capture on Melkor on the awakening of the elves and then again twice more at the start and finish of the 1st Age. Of course if they had been more active then you would never have had the stories of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ages which would overall have been far more peaceful and prosperous.

There is also the issue of what the elves ate. In early versions he described farm fields around Nargothrond, but later on Nargothrond was supposed to be a hidden kingdom. Good luck hiding a kingdom within miles of farmland, so he removed the farmland. But that introduces the question of where they got their food from. Same goes for Gondolin. The concept of the hidden city within surrounding mountains is neat of course, but is this valley large enough to grow the food that is needed to sustain the city? He certainly doesn't describe farms when Tuor visits Gondolin. The elves of Doriath, Mirkwood, Rivendell and Lothlorien could hunt, and they did, but these places don't _feel_ like hunter-gatherer societies. Their populations seem to large and too settled for that. And what do the dwarves eat? We can assume dwarf fortress logic with undergroud farming of mushrooms, but he never mentions a word of where the dwarves got their food from. Another point: Valinor. Elves are supposed to be more fertile when they are happy. In Valinor there is eternal peace and perfect happiness and also nobody ever dies there. Also, all Elves that sail west or die in Middle Earth end up there eventually. So, the Elf population of Valinor would grow exponentially with no restriction. Would Valinor fill up in the end? We are talking many milennia here so even low fertility would accumulate to large numbers. And what do Elves in Valinor eat? Do the Valar create ambrosia ex nihilo? Or are there massive farms there? The labour involved does away a bit with the paradise theme. Tolkien makes some effort in explaining how Sauron has such massive armies in a wasteland like Mordor. Maybe that might even work with massive slave labour in Nurn and beyond. But transporting all that food would be a logistical nightmare even in the 19th century. It's hard to move armies over roads that are already clogged with slow moving wagon trains full of food and weapons. In Gorgoroth there were barely any trees, so they also had to import all their arrows, siege towers and whatnot from far away. Surely Tolkien did not get everything perfectly wrapped up. He often preferred narrative "coolness" over realism and that is fine in a work of fiction. Perfect realism is boring. It is still admirable how much he did get right. I mean, synchronising the movements of several groups of people and getting all the chronology right was a major effort in itself and many authors probably would just gloss over it. Not Tolkien. But he was not perfect.

About the lack of Edain in Berenland, do we know at what date Numenor was settled? Say this happened after 300 years, when the Edain had multiplied to the degree that they were actually competing for space with elves? Which the Valar neatly solved by removing ALL Edain to Numenor. This also explains why there was no population of Edain left in Eriador - it seems hard to think they ALL moved voluntarily. But then again when the proto-Rohirrim moved to Rohan, they ALL moved - there is no equestrian people left in the northlands. Which is also odd.

I have to agree, this is why I enjoy the small villages and the culture invented in LOTRO for Eriador. They really filled these places with History.

World of the Lord of The Rings is super large with very cool lore behind it. But it just feels empty when you delve into it. There is too much lore and too few books taking place in that rich world. With only three novels, them being LoTR Hobbit and Childeren of Hurin. Besides these books there is not much life in the universe. Kinda feels sad. Makes me feel like reading the history of a bygone civilization.

Great video

When you look at the Middle Earth map, and realize the scale, it would need more people and towns, some places seem like there's only one village in 100 miles marked and the land kind of feels like it too, outside of Shire at least and the Shire itself is also huge.

Regarding peacetime decline: look around. Korea, Japan, Europe... we have peace, and yet population is in freefall because of other reasons, culture and economy. I can easily see these being an issue for Arnor or Gondor - in both cases the decline seems to kick in when things degrade enough that it feels like there is nothing good ahead. Regarding sharp increases - we often misunderstand statistics. When we say that the average lifespan in medieval times was 30-something, that didn't mean people dropped dead at that age. Rather, there was high mortality early on, but beyond maturity, many people lived to be 60 or more. Since it was not unusual to have 10+ children, if the conditions happened to arise to allow more kids to survive to maturity, growth could in fact be very rapid, where a population would double or triple in a generation. These kinds of booms did happen many times in history, only to be followed by extremely sharp declines in times of war, pestilence or famine. In short: population is a very dynamic factor.

Okay, reading through the comments, there's a lot of confusion about how population growth, demographics, etc. actually work. To start with, every population of any animal, including humans (though perhaps not elves and dwarves), grows at an exponential rate until it hits the carrying capacity of the environment. Factors like deaths in battle, disease and high infant mortality can affect the speed at which the population reaches the carrying capacity, but not the carrying capacity itself. Agricultural technology (and this includes the crops you're using) increases the carrying capacity of the environment. And the agricultural technology depicted in Tolkien's work is actually quite advanced. It's a lot closer to 18th century technology than it is to the dark ages. It's misleading to compare any of this to modern population declines in Japan or Ireland or wherever because 1) they started from a very high population density, driven by industrial technology, and 2) modern birth control, global migration, etc. have been real game changers. And in the case of the decline of the Roman Empire, there were two things going on there. One, the total collapse of long distance trade made the old, unproductive cities unviable. And two, some Eastern provinces like Pannonia and Dacia were overrun by nomadic peoples who didn't practice much agriculture. But people didn't just forget to farm, and the western rural populations hardly declined at all. There's just no reasonable explanation for vast swathes of productive land lying fallow for centuries. And this is one case where "but it's an unreliable narrator" just doesn't work, unless Frodo and Bilbo somehow forgot to mention that they spent most of their adventures camping in people's back yards.

I was told by the KZreadr Civilization Ex that the reason why Eriador remained depleted of people even during the Watchful Peace was because it was still full of roaming orc bands and enemies. And although they did not become a such a major issue that history would deem it a crisis, it was still enough to keep the scattered and weakened Dúnedain of the North from rebuilding its forces.

You should make a video about the Arkenstone and how it's like a Silmaril

What is the starting population of Arnor and Gondor? How many faithful Numenoreans really came in just 9 ships? I know that the regions already had some faithfuls and middle men but still, How did they even build so many cities (Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Isengard, Tharbad, Annuminas) in just 100 odd years? If they were so good at city building then how come the expansionist Numenoreans didn't build nothing but Umbar in previous 1000 years

@ricardoandre7049

15 күн бұрын

The initial populations were large. Larger in Gondor than Arnor, but still large. Numenor had multiple colonies, many south of Umbar, but north of Umbar Pelargir, Belfalas and the heartlands of gondor were already populated, mainly by faithfull in constrast to the kingmen southern colonies. So when Isildur and Anarion arrived, they arrived to a settled land who had ties to the faithfull of numenor and by consequence their house, for they had always been the leaders amongst the faithfull in numenor, even when they were under persecution by the kings. Arnor had colonies, lesser than pelargir for they were out of favour with the kings of numenor since they turned to the shadows but still had, and eriador was large and populated by many middle men. Elendil arrived to a lesser colonial state, made up of fief all around Arnor water ways, and he consolidated the realm under him. In Arnor the dunedain were much less in comparison than those in gondor. So the populations were large, and with this new leadership intent of rebuilding what they lost, such mighty works could be done.

@oudviola

15 күн бұрын

I've worried about this point also. Elendil and his Faithful survived the destruction of Numenor with seven (not nine I believe) ships, which at best could only include a few hundred people. It's not stated anywhere that I know, exactly how many Numenoreans were living in Middle Earth colonies by that time. But they managed to build new cities (Minas Tirith and Ithil, Osgiliath, Annuminas, after the Fall of Numenor, in pretty short order. Not at all clear where all the huge armies of the Last Alliance came from.

@istari0

14 күн бұрын

Númenor had established colonies in Middle-Earth over a 1000 years before the destruction of the island. That's plenty of time, even allowing for the relatively slow reproduction rates of the Númenoreans, for a sizeable population to develop. Umbar was not the only major city; Pelargir and Tharbad already existed before the founding of Gondor and Arnor. There could have been settlements at Osgiliath and Annuminas before they were turned into capitols. Minas Anor and Minas Ithil were originally built as fortresses to protect Osgiliath before developing into cities in their own right. There may well have been other sizeable settlements as well; they just didn't get mentioned in the stories.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

There were other colonies along the coasts obviously, the Pelargir was a major one in the area of Gondor, but there were also colonies on the coast the Belfalas and so on, Umbar was one of many. Other settlements are not named. I mean there were many colonies that were forgotten in the histories and not named. Umbar, Pelargir and Lond Daer were only the major ones...we know there were more and smaller ones and in time entire colonial realms. The princes of Belfalas are supposedly a Faithful who settled in the area even before Elendil and his sons landing. In the area of Lond Daer and Tharbad we hear of the local growth and fortresses and so on: "They were in awe of the Númenóreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Númenóreans when they could, and the Númenóreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. The fellings had at first been along both banks of the Gwathló, and timber had been floated down to the haven (Lond Daer); but now the Númenóreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and southwards from the Gwathló, and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk. From Enedwaith they took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland; they did not cross the Isen nor take refuge in the great promontory between Isen and Lefnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas [Ras Morthil or Andrast: see p. 224, note 6, because of the "Púkel-men"...." ... "Sauron knew of the importance to his enemies of the Great Haven and its ship-yards. and he used these haters of Númenor as spies and guides for his raiders. He had not enough force to spare for any assault upon the forts at the Haven or along the banks of the Gwathló. but his raiders made much havoc on the fringe of the forests, setting fire in the woods and burning many of the great wood-stores of the Númenóreans." So there were other fortresses, and possible settlements and if this is true of Eriador coast then the other lands also. Along the shores of Harad there were many other colonies besides Umbar and going further south.

True love is being able to criticize when the other person has done something wrong or is wrong. and if we can't accept criticism, we can't grow as a person. Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy, but like a student surpassing his master, there will be writers even greater than Tolkien in his time, taking what Tolkien did right and improving the things he wasn't so good at. I personally hate the term "There will never be...a thing like this...again". that's a pretty pessimistic statement. I personally hope that there will be countless works of fiction as great, if not better, than what Tolkien did. nor should it be an insult to Tolkien. and wouldn't the master wish his apprentices to be better than him in their work? after all, anyone can be the next Tolkien if they put in enough effort and put enough love and passion into their work and their worlds. so good luck and success to all future writers. Great Video ! Have a nice day !

@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands

13 күн бұрын

in my country there is a saying that goes: "Se on kuin karhun palvelus" = "It's like a favor of bear" it's the kind of favor that does more harm than good, even if the recipient of the help does not realize it at the time of receiving the help. = Criticism is a good thing, it helps to see one's own problems and avoid them in the future and to grow as a person. Have a good day !

@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands

13 күн бұрын

it's also good to remember that no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, even Tolkien, it's human to be imperfect but still try your best. and learn from the times you fail, when you fail, that's what humanity is made of. to try, to fail and to try again.

I think with the initial nucleus of Men who settled in Numenor, we can count also the faithful among the Easterlings. Not enough perhaps to pump the numbers up to 300,000, but it is something.

Demographics is extremely tricky when we don't have nearly enough context for almost anything. Historically human population sizes have been linked to available resources and could rise and fall very rapidly to get back to sustenance levels. This pattern was only broken a few hundred years ago by the industrial revolution in our world and that more or less never happened in Middle Earth. I think the best explanation for the issues with Tolkien's demographics would be to just take the numbers as some sort of guesstimates made by the people (elves?) who wrote and compiled the historical accounts. The overarching decline in Middle Earth throughout the ages is not really explicable without magical factors so there isn't much point trying to figure out the missing context from a real world perspective. Maybe an acre of farmland sustained 10 people in the second age and 8 people in the third age or whatever. There's nothing fundamentally wrong or right about any of the numbers when we don't know half the fundaments.

I think the Dale problem can be explained fairly well, After the battle of the five armies, so much of the north's threats could have been pacified, and a new friendly leadership in Erebor, could have led to a free frontier-esque environment for Dale (similar to the early US or 16th century Russia) that would result in massive birth rates and possibly immigration from nearby areas. The Edain one is less explainable, but still possible given you see more extreme examples Irl. For example, the Slavs at the time of the Roman empire were absolutely tiny, probably less than 1 million in northern Russia and Finland, but over the centuries due to lack of competition and civilizational development, their numbers exploded. Then again, these probably prove the whole decline thing, which yeah, there aren't any real parallels, declines do happen but they usually don't last long and can be reversed rather easily. I kinda wish Tolkien would explain it something like, "Arnor was not well run" or " Many escaped to the south", which would at least explain part of it, but I do think that an entire seperate event, like a war or crisis would have been needed to justify the decline.

@fantasywind3923

12 күн бұрын

I think it's quite easy, the development and growth are never stable, there are also countless demographics issues in each society, the Gondorians of the purer numenorean blood would have trouble with slower birth rate since as the more longlived even if only slightly in general in later centuries they still would have the typical problem of the long lived races slower increase of populations. The more ordinary men shortlived and quicker so they can grow in number faster but also since they are often more primitive technologically and devoid of the gifts of the High Men would also have huge mortality rate. But in any case the Dale example is pretty simple....there were already enough viable population in the area to further expand in the next 80 or so years till War of the Ring. I mean it is clearly said there were many other peoples out there, and obviously there would be many more descendants of the original inhabitants of Dale when they fled! Smaug have not destroyed them all, we know that some people survived escaping, some fled to Esgaroth (like Girion's wife and child) others could have spread across the region, and join other communities of the men living along the Celduin river...in The Hobbit we have said straight there were men down south along the river! Bard rebuilding Dale meant that a lot of these people became his subjects, many came to him from the south and west, so also probably parts of the Woodmen (who also formed the Beornings etc.) and nearly 80 years till the War of the Ring or peace and prosperity meant probably explosive ppoulation boom :); the Northmen tribes of the lands between Celduin and Carnen rivers are mentioned also in appendices...as those who became strong thanks to the dwarven weapons and driving away the enemies from the east, in the time of Thrór rule under the Mountain! Even long centuries before that there were folk of Dale...even befor the CITY of Dale was founded heheh. The Dale-men were also given influx of the Vidugavia's kingdom who fled from Wainriders! The Dale men populace would be always having a way to survive mixing with other incoming folk of the related peoples and tribes and so on. The Hobbit clealy mentions the men living in the area further away to stay clear of the mountain and the dragon but they are there! And we know that these men came to Bard's call: "Bard had rebuilt the town in Dale and men had gathered to him from the Lake and from South and West, and all the valley had become tilled again and rich, and the desolation was now filled with birds and blossoms in spring and fruit and feasting in autumn." The Hobbit, Ch 19, The Last Stage So there was already enough viable population to have the increase. And even then the kingdom stretching between Carnen and Celduin would be probably not densely populated.

He was just creating a milieu in which to play with languages in, to name people and places. He didn't give that much thought to the organic growth of nations or their economies.

Middle Earth reminds me of every world I've played in Minecraft-empty except for a few villages.

This is an interesting topic but I feel like at some point there's no point in seeing these things as "problems" because it's like asking why didn't one guy procedurally generate an entire alternate Earth down to completely accurate weather patterns, the fact is sometimes you just have to give up on things that aren't important to the overall story as long as it doesn't get too wacky. Exact population counts and whether or not they have the logistics for it aren't important so much as making people FEEL like an area is under or overpopulated through the writing.

I think it would've been better if Eriador was more like Rhovanion. Rhovanion might've been unrealisticly depopulated, but it still had scattered inhabitants (the woodmen) plus The Kingdom of Dale, but not enough inhabitants so that Frodo and Co. would just be jumping from town to town in Fellowship.

Stature of an Ent, more like. Great, well-balanced video.

I want to know why "Westron" was able to remain unchanged for thousands of years, when in the mundane world we know that over that time a language, especially one spread out into several non-communicating communities, will likely become a number of inter-unintelligible languages quite different from the original tongue.

Brie could have been destroyed and rebuilt a dozen times in those thousand years - It's a frontier town where people go because there's nowhere else left and the young would flee from to more civilised lands or to go adventuring as soon as they could. You have Barrow Wights and Goblins in close proximity along with who knows what else. I'd also guess that Brie probably has a significant gender ratio issue with far more men than women given that adventurers and travellers are its main source of income and most of those will be male whether Man, Dwarf, Hobbit or Elf. - The Shire is a much bigger problem when its pretty clear that Hobbit children are numerous and families with multiple children are common. Where do all these Hobbit children go when they grow up?

I like this video. I had the exact same thoughts considerong Dale.

No matter what genius makes a masterpiece, there is always imperfection. But I don't think it's that hard to explain these things. Tolkien didn't tell us everything that happened, there could easily be events that weren't mentioned. This is also a fantasy world where magic can happen - loads of blokes climbing out of holes in the ground wouldn't be completely unprecedented, though I don't think that happened. In a period of unusual growth, maybe there was a Maia living among them like Melian did. The Ainur have been known to interfere at other times, like when Ulmo gave the 2 brothers visions about building cities. The Men Of Dale could have had Dwarven help with building, they had just won a battle together. Or these could be all be mistakes caused by Tolkien changing his mind about things & developing ideas over time, then dying before he was finished. I'm not sure publishing his NOTES from development makes them canon to his world. They are more a window into his process. I think the worse issues are the odd continuity mistake such as how many siblings Galadriel has. There is 1 thing I really disagree with you about. I'm not an expert on this subject, but I watch every Tolkien Untangled & I don't think learning more makes it less magical. I find it fascinating to see where his inspiration came from, with parallels to Saxon mythology & a real event with his wife in a clearing in the woods inspiring the meetings of Beren & Luthien; & Aragorn & Arwen etc.

I've always thought the biggest problem Tolkien had was the technology disparity of his worlds. Gondor resembles the Roman Empire with large stone constructions. Rohan has a Medieval feel with its wood constructions. The Shire resembles the early 1800s of England with its cottages and glass windows. I think Tolkien, being an academic, wanted to heavily incorporate European history, but it presents problems with the storyline. The Hobbits who are the least powerful group, have taverns and mail service? The Rohirrim are an agricultural society, yet are able to maintain a large calvary with highly centralized command. (They are able to muster thousands of horsemen in a few days?) And Gondor, unlike Rome with its provinces and governors, seems to lack an organizational system. (Where are Gondor's armies?)

@-keios8170

15 күн бұрын

It seems to me that a lot of people have a problem with Tolkien because they look at him through the prism of 100 years of fantasy development. When someone grows up in a world where authors like R. R. Martin, Sapkowski or Sanderson, are considered to be classics, it's hard to look at the fathers of the genre without considering the modern perspective on fantasy. Both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are anachronistic (although it should be noted that The Hobbit is definitely more anachronistic). The Shire is literally a Victorian village with such modern conveniences as a post office, police force and tweed jackets. However, when you move into the world, both the main characters and the reader, as it were, go back in time, to the era of myths and legendary heroes. This was the general idea for the worldbuilding, to show the magic of an already lost world. Such anachronistic themes are abundant in Tolkien's works, especially in the language he uses. Smaug, for example, uses language characteristic of the British upper class. In conclusion, Tolkien did not create fantasy the way modern authors do, he was not concerned with creating as realistic a world as possible (in the sense of brutally realistic type: “how Aragorn's fiscal policy worked”) only with sending relatively modern characters on a journey through the world of myths and legends.

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

​@@-keios8170 Well put. The Shire hobbits are much closer in material culture and lifestyle to the typical reader than to the heroic warrior societies Frodo and his friends encounter. The story is basically Wind in The Willows meets Beowulf.

@Aglahad

15 күн бұрын

Specifically, Rohan was clearly Anglo Saxon early medieval England. Even the. Names were old English esque

@alanpennie

15 күн бұрын

@@Aglahad Indeed. After all teaching AS literature was Tolkien's day job, and we get an actual quotation from The Wanderer, an Old English poem.

@Hero_Of_Old

15 күн бұрын

​@@-keios8170 Correct, and it links to the original conception of Middle-earth where there was a 'modern character' who goes back in time. We have the Anglo Saxon Elfwine visit the elves. Bilbo and Frodo act as mediators linking us between the mundane/modern world and the mythical past.

JRRT's worldbuilding was very, *very* good, but even after all of that, he was still a human being. Of course he was flawed. It is also fair to criticize him, even improve on his work (although you have to be very careful of that to *not* change the things that he did better than you would!). To quote Isaac Newton in regards to physics, "if I have seen far, it is because I have stood upon the shoulders of giants." Personally, I am also going to point to ecology as a limitation of Tolkien's worldbuilding. In reality, forests regrow, especially in land that has been depopulated. They don't in Tolkien's writings, even if the land they were on becomes uninhabited. In some cases, there can be supernatural explanations for this (e.g. Melkor's or Sauron's taint), but in other cases...

@bundayeti

15 күн бұрын

Eriador's forests were destroyed 4-5 millenia ago. The ents must be very bad at their job

@user-yy5xs6xj7r

14 күн бұрын

As far as I know, there are places in England that were deforested during the Neolithic and forests did not recover there despite those lands being abandoned. If there is a lot of rain, soil quality deteriorates quickly if there are no tree roots to hold it in place and trees do not grow on poor soils, so the soil can't recover.

@bristleconepine4120

13 күн бұрын

@@user-yy5xs6xj7r Are those places still being cultivated? I am comparing this with the eastern coasts of the United States, which was cleared by the Algonquin, reforested when the Spanish diseases largely wiped out the Algonquin, cleared again by English-American settlers, and then left fallow as the economy changed and is once again forested.

@user-yy5xs6xj7r

13 күн бұрын

@@bristleconepine4120 I am not an expert here, so I may be mistaken, but as far as understand, those lands were used for agriculture for some time, but soil fertility was deteriorating and those areas turned into moorlands. Moorlands were still used as pastures for sheep, so they weren't completely abandoned, but the main reason that prevented the recovery of forests was soil quality, not sheep grazing. Climate changes may also play some role. It seems that in some areas forests can recover after a long time, in other areas trees have to be planted by humans to recover forests, and in some areas it is impossible for forests to recover at all. Also, I want to point out that not all forests are depicted on the maps of the Middle-Earth ,in most cases only those that are old and important. For example. northern Ithilien is described as woodland, but there are no forests depicted on the map. So it is completely possible that in some areas of Enedwaith and Minhiriath woods have recovered to some extent, but they weren't depicted on the map.

Even as a massive fan, as a biologist I noted from my very first reading of the book how unrealistic the biology and demographics of the peoples of Middle Earth were, and I attributed it to Tolkein wanting to make every society have the most ancient roots possible. Added to that the thousands of years of technological stagnation that the various races experienced, which you simply have to ignore for the sake of enjoying the books. Tolkein was not a demographer, population biologist, or had a scientific or technical turn of mind at all. No-one knows everything.

@waltonsmith7210

2 күн бұрын

Well mankind lived through millenia of of technological stagnation in the Stone Age.

Interesting discussion- thanks. His world building wasn’t perfect- but it was still wonderful.👍