Dr Jack is breath of fresh air.

Love listening to Jack! Clear and straight to the point, with none of that more in my book stuff 😁

@sp1ke0kill3r

11 күн бұрын

Agreed and you can see there's more in my book

44:50 I am one of those mythicists, or so I'm told, and I had previously dismissed your suggestion because I don't come to that conclusion based on any heavenly crucifixion idea, and it sounds like that's what you are refuting, specifically. However now I think you're explaining it a bit more fully because I think you're making a case for "there was a specific guy, and he was crucified, and then people told other people about it" and beyond that we can't be confident of anything else. I do remain sceptical, but I think that setting the historical Jesus bar so low is actually more realistic than the usual "these sayings probably go back to the historical Jesus" stuff we often get from less scrupulous scholars.

Ha, ha, ha sorry can't stop laughing because Paul is supposed the least dubious part of the NT and yet.

@saimbhat6243

21 күн бұрын

Ha ha ha, sorry can't stop laughing because Paul never met Jesus, never met any disciples of Jesus. Has a claim of getting "vision" of Jesus, with multiple versions of that story. Had conflicts and differences of doctrines with actual literal followers of Jesus. He literally made up the stuff, yet his doctrines define orthodoxy rather than the jerusalem congregation or other actual followers of Jesus. So a guy, with no mention by Jesus, no mention in the old testament, just comes up and says he is having visions with doctrines contradictory to that of other apostles, and you go like "Yeah, this guy makes sense". Make it make sense. Because getting a vision wasn't uncommon in that land at that time, every other person was claiming visions, lol. Even today, thousands of people claim visions of jesus every year. What makes the visions of Paul any different? And Joseph Smith also claimed visions, why are you not a mormon? Paul just made up stuff, with no authority, no primary sources and got unchallenged because his Greek followers (because his doctrines cater to Greek paganism) outnumbered other congregations. LOL He basically cucked the actual teachings of Jesus.

Refreshing to see that while some scholars have bookshrlves of mighty tomes in their background, Jack has a Tesco carrier bag

So happy to hear Dr. Bull on your channel again. I really appreciate all of the work you put in.

Dr Robert M Price is currently going through the epistles on Wise as Serpents and telling us which passages are and aren’t in Marcion sometimes entire “chapters” how does he know?

@user-uo7fw5bo1o

24 күн бұрын

Maybe he's keeping up with Jack Bull, Mark Bilby and Markus Vincent, or he's using previous Marcionite scholarship.

@joshuarichard6827

24 күн бұрын

@@user-uo7fw5bo1ointeresting I’ll have to look at that. I think he says Romans ends at 13 in some Marcions and 14 at others. Was really interesting that he seemed so confident

Fabulous show! Great questions for Jacob & Jack is smooth as always. The cat stole the show though…

📝"The first earliest mention of "a paul" (not THEE Paul) is found in 140AD in Marcion of Sinope." Pre-Marcionite texts such as The Didache, 1st Clement, Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermes do not mention a Paul nor a resurrection" - just taking down notes.

Wonderful show, with a wonderful scholar, posted on a wonderful channel

You need to get Dennis MacDonald and Jack Bull on the show together to debate if Marion did or did not shorten the Gospel of Luke.

Great program

kitty was cracking me up looked so comfortable

the cat is cute 🥰

Is the Nag hamadi corpus taken into consideration when constructing the Marcionite corpus?

Interesting, so If I understand what Dr. Bull said, it's more likely than not that Ignatius was the one who wrote the letters and somehow the credit was given to a "Paul?"

Lee Macdonald answered this yesterday

Wikipedia claims that Pauline epistles are from 48 to 66 AD 😂

@mgbilby

24 күн бұрын

The Wikipedia editors tend to be religiously fundamentalist when it comes to Christian origins. Some senior editors need to broaden the discourse.

@Minimmalmythicist

24 күн бұрын

I think there are fair reasons to suspect they are from before the fall of the Temple as there are no obvious allusions to it in the Pauline corpus. Dating of these kind of documents tends to be an act of guesswork more than anything though.

@user-uo7fw5bo1o

24 күн бұрын

​@@mgbilby Exactly. These same fundie editors have edited the entry on crucifixion so that the typical cross was according to the article a two beam cross and _only_ a two beam cross. Typical ones have another piece but I won't get into describing it lest KZread delete my reply!

@sciptick

23 күн бұрын

@@Minimmalmythicist Since most of what 'Mark' has his Jesus say traces directly to Paul's opinions expressed in his letters, and to Hebrews, we can anyway distrust those letters and parts thereof he didn't reify. There is every reason to believe that Ignatius was not really in custody being taken to Rome.

@Minimmalmythicist

23 күн бұрын

@@sciptick It doesn´t mean we necessarily have to distrust those parts, it means we don´t have early attestation, which is a different thing, it doesn´t mean blanket distrust. There´s evidence too that Luke was using Paul as a source, some parts of Luke seem to be written directly to contradict the Pauline Epistles.

How does the theology and the theology words being used understand the theology and then you can tell the differences and have a better bet at what is and is not

Theological version of telephone. Good intentions, save the lambs.

I have trouble believing the letters were tracked down and retrieved from the churches they were sent to. Seems more likely the author had a collection of copies of their letters which someone got their hands on. That would also agree with Paul's narcissistic tendencies in his letters. Also, for those of us who aren't religious or invested professionally in this, there is no precious baby that might get thrown out with the proverbial bath water. Healthy skepticism is something most atheists apply to every other area of life (credible reports of UFOs/UAPs that defy known laws of physics by US Air Force pilots) but not to Christian historicity for some strange reason. But I think Jack is a healthy voice on this topic.

@joshuarichard6827

24 күн бұрын

Agreed. Or maybe it is all made up

@Jd-808

24 күн бұрын

Healthy skepticism isn’t declaring that you know things you can’t know

@eximusic

24 күн бұрын

@@Jd-808 kind of what I was saying.

@Jd-808

24 күн бұрын

@@eximusic “Paul didn’t exist” and “everything was just made up in the 2nd century” aren’t skeptical claims, they’re incredibly bold ones. You don’t have to think these things are precious to caution against that kind of overreach.

@eximusic

23 күн бұрын

@@Jd-808 who says Paul didn't exist? you're arguing with a straw man Don Quixote (fighting windmills?). But what do we really know about Paul as Acts is pure fiction?

What are Justin martyr’s “memoirs of the apostles” are they proto canonical gospels?

@TheDanEdwards

23 күн бұрын

That's the question in regards to Justin's references: he did not say.

@suuupsuuup1111swgoh

23 күн бұрын

If the memoirs of the apostles is a collection of the Synoptics then that would provide evidence that the Synoptics at least circulated by the time of Justin martyrs writings. And I was under the impression he and that Marcion on were contemporaries. I would love for jack / the patristica folks to address this. I have no dog in the fight, just genuinely curious

What's the kitty's name, Marcion?

@Patristica

22 күн бұрын

Minky 😂

Great stuff. Dr. Jack Bull could flip his mic so the red part (the part that holds the mic transducer) could be put on top. Then the entire mic could be moved downward and towards Dr. Jack Bull. Then it wouldn't look like he had this giant mic looming over him.

Modified New Testament? Book of Laodecians? Really? Since when? Which publisher? Interesting

Why does it go ignored that the church was started by a Jew who was born and raised in the house of David?

All scripture is Yahuah breathed and suitable for doctrine and reproof. This includes Paul’s writings. You are on dangerous ground denying the word of Yahuah.

@SopranoJessi

13 күн бұрын

Paul's letters are not scripture.

@stephannaro2113

10 күн бұрын

The word 'scripture' is cognate with the word 'scribbles'. So "all scribbles are breathed by Monster" puts these scribbles attributed to "Paul" on an equal footing with rude graffiti on Hadrian's Wall. All who deny Roman graffiti must expect the Sky Of Bronze to fall on them - aaaannnnyyy day now!

@user-zi9nc3in3t

10 күн бұрын

This claim Paul makes in 2 Tim is not supported by Jeremiah (7:22, 8:8 ) who lived at the time that the Book of the Law was found. The scribes had been writing things that were lies. Jesus agrees. Matt 5:17-20 , 33-37 compare Numbers 30:2 . Jesus spoke by God’s spirit making clear what was and was not the will of the Father because it had been distorted by men. This made it possible for us to repent and act in harmony with the Fathers law free of the deceptions and traditions of men and be found righteous in God’s sight. No blood sacrifice necessary as Paul falsely asserts. History repeats itself.

Your guest is a bit of an arse, isn't he? {:o:O:}

You need to get Dennis MacDonald and Jack Bull on the show together to debate if Marion did or did not shorten the Gospel of Luke.