Treantmonk confirmed in his video that the daze condition was removed from the conditions section of the 2024 PHB. Which is unfortunate, I was really hoping that monster stat blocks, spells, magic items, etc we're going to make much higher use of the daze condition. I love to see the use of paralysis significantly reduced in the game.

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

Damn that’s really unfortunate.

@barcster2003

19 күн бұрын

Well now I wonder what clerics turn undead says because that was one of the things.

@NotYourAverageNothing

18 күн бұрын

When did he say this?

@SamanthaVimes177

18 күн бұрын

@@NotYourAverageNothing during the rogue reveal video he did when this feature was released he confirmed that dazed was no longer condition.

12:22 I wanna say, just because it isn’t talked about much, but the introduction of the Magic Action just makes the game so much better and clearer. A Magic Action can be for a spell, magical item or an ability. That’s concise and easy to understand

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

Fully agree.

@floofzykitty5072

20 күн бұрын

I love how they intentionally moved away from codified language when they first designed 5e due to the way 4e was received and only now they are realising they threw the baby out with the bath water. Codified language doesn't make systems harder or more complex to understand, it makes sure a system can stand up better to scrutiny.

@adolfodef

19 күн бұрын

An interesting example: [Character_Level 3]: |Fighter_Level 2| ; |Monk_Level 1| ; {Origin_Feat: "Eldritch_Adept"} = {|Invocation|: "Pact_of_The_Tome"} |Setup|: The character is constantly carrying a small hammer on his offhand (like a tiny +1AC buckler shield) & its also re-casting "Produce Flame" (Cantrip) every 9 minutes for guaranteed illumination. [ |Roll|: (Initiative)] ; [ |Roll|: 1d100+10 = (flame_light-remaining_rounds) ]: / / [Round 1]: [First_turn]: . |Move|: (towards)10_feet_from_enemy ; . {Action_Surge}: |Action|: (Attack1a): {|Object_Interaction|:(Equip)+(Throw)}: Handaxe(Vex) + (Attack1b): {(Throw)} Hammer(Nick) ; . |Magic_Action|: "Flame_Strike" ; . |Move|: (towards)5_feet_from_enemy ; . |Bonus_Action|: "Unarmed Attack(Melee)" . |Move| (away)10_feet_from_enemy + {|Enemy_Action|: "Opportunity_Attack(Melee)" + |Reaction|: "Blade_Ward"(Cantrip) / / [Round 2]: . . .

I appreciated a lot your video, you highlighted the big potential of rogues not just for their damage output, but for it's role in the fight. An assassin can apply debilitating venoms making them effective, a thief can activate a spell from a scroll helping out the casters, a trickster can provide a formidable assist to his martial teammates, and so on

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

I’m glad you enjoyed it, thank you so much for the feedback!

My thoughts on it are (at least martial wise, excited for warlock today and Ranger later!): Fighters and Barbarians are the best martial. Close behind them Paladin, close behind that rogue. We all knew a nerf to Paladin was coming, I was fine with once a turn or even once a round smite. Think turning it to a BA is crappy and making it a spell even more so. Everything else for Paladin looks good. Rogue looks good, I like the minor/major buffs. Just feels like it needed one more key buff to push it over the top and get it closer to fighter/barbs.

@BestgirlJordanfish

20 күн бұрын

Yeah the bonus action for paladin is rough. I kinda wish they made it a once per turn *weapon mastery effect. Like, that feels so natural for having a “slot” that they literally just created as a design space. Kinda feel the current rogue gets by if using the Nick property, but god I think it could use a Short Rest resource / feature. Like a “Cunning Flourish” or something to permit an additional bonus action or reaction up to once per short rest (given that you aren’t using the same activity consecutively).

@monkeyman3194

20 күн бұрын

Why are we looking at a rogue as a class that needs to do that much damage in a fight ? Shouldn’t the order of output from straight martials be something along the lines of 1. Fighter 2. Barb/Ranger (roughly equivalent by different means of dealing damage) 3.monk 4.rogue ? The rogue from a fantasy perspective shouldn’t even want to get into combat , if it gets to combat then something when wrong in their mission

@fortunatus1

20 күн бұрын

This was purposeful. The paladin has the aura; it should under no circumstances be doing more damage than the Fighter and Barbarian because it has this other dominating feature. The 1/turn smite is to prevent burst damage that was unbalancing the class with regard to other martials. But the burst damage prevention is the point. If Divine Smite is not a spell and not a Bonus Action, then you can still do the burst damage the designers are trying to remove - you can divine smite and do a smite spell on the same turn. Surprisingly, WotC is actually giving us elegant design.

@fortunatus1

20 күн бұрын

@@monkeyman3194 I agree with this but I'd also add that players can increase their Rogue damage in two ways - (1) by adding poison to their weapon/ammo before the fight starts. This is never factored in by people judging damage capabilities. Second, you can reaction sneak attack and Vex is the key to making SA available on the Reaction attacks. But you often have to coordinate with other players going all the back to character creation. A Rogue and Battlemaster fighter with Commander's Strike are an amazing combo. EDIT: People, especially rogue players, should be thinking more about group damage than about individual pc damage.

@zTom_

20 күн бұрын

​@@fortunatus1Also, while frustrating for the Paladin, if an enemy ever actually Counterspells your Divine Smite, that's a BIG win for the party as they just exposed themselves to the truly fight ending spells of your wizard/sorcerer, etc that turn. 🤷🏻‍♂️

The way I see it, casual players think that the roge damage is already great, ive seen them say that it's even broken, (hence the very high satisfaction scores and popularity of the class) so boosting the rogue's damage won't make them happy. And optimizers know that the roge damage is mediocre, so they found all these cleaver work arounds to make sure the rogue gets to double their sneak attack damage, that's really fun and the designers left that in, so they're also pretty happy. I think in practice, the rogue will not be a burden on the team and will be great fun to play. I think they did a great job tbh.

But if it isn’t a bit crappy, how can WotC sell you the “fix” later? :/

@tmzFRM

20 күн бұрын

Treantmonk said it best: one class has to be the weakest. But now the gap is much shorter between base classes. Nothing "a bit crappy" to see here.

@TehSpessPiret

20 күн бұрын

​@@tmzFRM yeah the fact that the rogue, despite getting what I'd consider a pretty massive buff is now considered the weakest is less a condemnation of rogues and more or a testament to how much the other classes got buff, and even still, I might want to play a rogue anyways, especially now that the vex/nick weaponry combo gives you absolutely free on demand sneak attacks AND those sneak attacks can be used in newer ways than just damage

Thank you for these review videos.

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

I’m glad you enjoy them! Thanks for watching :)

Needs sneak attack to scale more, and able to be used more than once but with less dice.

I think it'd be nice if someone could spell out to me why the rogue being weak is necessarily a bad thing? The way I've always seen it, its a balance over how well they can be built for outside of combat through rping or for exploring. Their expertise can be given to a number of skills and no two rogues have to be alike outside of dexterity. For example, an arcane trickster can have decently high intelligence with expertise in intelligent based skills while a swashbuckler is incredibly charismatic, deceptive and charming. I don't know, I was always under the impression that fighters and magic users handled combat, while the rogues assist them getting in and out of areas either through their thievery skills or intellect or charisma.

@InsightCheck

16 күн бұрын

I can absolutely spell it out for you: it isn’t necessarily a bad thing lol. As long as it isn’t so dramatically underpowered that it offers essentially nothing, it’s fine. Other things that aren’t damage can often be just as, if not more fun, than damage. People just like big numbers go bigger haha

If they changed sneak attack damage to 1d4 per level, every level, and the cunning strikes (which i hate already) were less costly and more varied, i still wouldn't use it probably, but it would give a power boost for those that want it whole also making it more conducive to use since it wouldn't be a choice of "a LOT of damage or this small status effect".

I've been wanting the monk to be reworked into a supportive martial based on debuffs for years, seeing it done instead on rogue is odd, but a welcome change. I think it's stronger, the rogue was never really pulling its weight in damage, so focusing on utility is very good even if on the stat sheet and calculations it might not seem as good

@Prismatic_Rain

14 күн бұрын

Nothing the rogue is able to do here beats the power of Stunning Strike. Certainly not before level 14, and even then I think I would take SS over those rogue options too. Monk still wins out on utility power in combat by a mile. Not to mention monk doing a good 20% more average damage per round, and they don't have to waste any of that damage to use stunning strike, unlike the rogue who has to sacrifice some of their d6's and fall even farther behind whenever they activate a special combat effect. Rogue honestly looking kind of pitiful. Expertise and reliable talent on the skills side of things is about all rogue really excels at.

@aetriandimitri190

14 күн бұрын

@@Prismatic_Rain stunning strike is an extremely unhealthy mechanic that the monk has far too much of it's power budget in. It should be removed and replaced with these sorts of features

I just wished they gave the rogue a fighting style feat (+2 to hit with ranged attacks, or +DX for off-hand attacks) are simple yet very effective at bumping the damage numbers upwards. I think the class's design is great - but fear their damage numbers fell too far behind.

@michaelcolon4162

20 күн бұрын

You can take it as a origin feat at level 1

@tmzFRM

20 күн бұрын

Treantmonk did the math: rogue's are lacking at melee, ok at ranged attacks.

@Chimburger12

20 күн бұрын

​@@michaelcolon4162 Can you? In the playtest you could only take fighting style feats if you already have the feature. I would love if they changed that but I haven't seen anything about it

@JJV7243

20 күн бұрын

@@tmzFRM I saw that comment - but he didn't explain his thinking. Numbers-wise they deal about the same (in and out of melee). So... its a tad confusing.

@nightingale8178

20 күн бұрын

@@JJV7243 TLDR below. If you are in melee your best option is to take shortsword and scimitar. They are d6 weapons that allow you to attack additional time and give that 2nd attack advantage. Comparing it to longbow its potential 2d6 vs 1d8. But there is a major difference. If you are a ranged rogue you can use steady aim much easier. That results in different scenario. 1d6 normal + 1d6 (advantage only if you hit 1st attack) VS 1d8 with advatage always. If you select feats: Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter you can guarantee double advantage on every single turn which results in very consistent dmg output. Range itself is also a big boon. Comparing it to the best melee options which are Sentinel and EA/Charger. Elven accuracy wont be as sure to appear in melee scenario simply due to inablity to use steady aim or missing 1st attack. Charger gives you simple dmg boost but it wont work every single turn. Sentinel is very good. Ability to use sneak attack on reaction is awesome but once again it wont happen every turn and every time it does you can still miss an attack. TLDR. Ranged Rouge has much more accuracy and melee variant has a bit more dmg. But Mathematically accuracy is always better. There can be a round of combat where your melee rouge hits for more but it all gets left behind as soon as you miss your sneak attack. Thats also why Archery fighting style is the best purely numbers wise.

In bg3 it was fun to use the hide action to get advantage. I wonder how they will treat the hide action in the new rules. I have played a lot of rogues (ok mostly arcane tricksters) simply because the flavor and abilities is very fun to me. I am ok with rogue doing less damage because I get expertise which makes for some really fun situations in roleplay. Still, if the issue is just numbers or output, I could just homebrew buff something like their sneak attack damage or giving them extra attack at a certain point. I also like using thief’s climb stat to climb up and shoot enemies where they cant get to you. To me a lot of rogue’s kit is about being able to hit enemies and them not being able to hot back. I do wonder however if the subclasses will be balanced. The extra assassin dmg seems very small given you can kinda only do it once, and idk if i would ever play it over arcane trickster. Since it can now pick any wizard spell, i also am thinking we might get access to the blade cantrips which means we are going to be getting our own damage buff already so eh. I also think thief is badly designed as interactions with magic items are very DM dependant, though I do like the climb speed and stuff. I feel like they tried in a lot of subclasses to take things out that were dm dependant, but running into magic items that your other party members wont immediately start using is very dm dependant.

I guess I’ll continue to homebrew Once per Round Extra Attack Rogue, way higher consistency by adding that 10% of variance damage directly into normal attacks. While allowing for off turn sneak attack if holding action.

3:00 Useless, since they will stand up before you get to attack them witrh advantage again. You'll at best be setting others up to do more damage but more likely give your ranged allies disavantage. 4:30 You're sacrificing a lot for something which a caster can give to an entire group of enemies using faerie fire. Especially since the rogue was already a subpar damage dealer. 5:00 It sounds great til you consdier that all the options suck. 5:15 Antother set of subpar options. It's level 14, nothing you fight at 14th level is going to fail constitution saving throws, if they do they're so weak you're better of doign the damage and knocking them out by takign them to 0 hp in melee. The Blinded one could be good except it's one turn only. I mean god it's not even til the end of your next turn. 5:45 Well finally an actuall buff. 6:15 I would much rather have blindfigting than these options. At least with blindsight you can have someone drop a darkness on you and the blinding is ongoing. 6:45 they just pop out of thin air? Make sense. About what I expect from wotc these days. 8:15 the weapon damage is a joke. They should instead have lifted the once per turn thing from sneak attack, so long as you attack an enemy which hasn't acted yet. 9:00 It wouldn't be always on it would still need your bonus aciton. 9:45 Again constitution saving throws... at level 17, pretty much useless. This will trigger in a menaingful way at most once in a campaign. The wizard just got acess to wish. 10:45 You'r being sarcastic right? Oh advange on two creatures. Let's compare that to faerie fire again. 14:15 Sure they do after all get reliable talent at 7th level. I take it evasion is still in there or this is a stright up nerf of an already weak class. 14:30 Didn't need it? the rogue was already only balanced if they find a way to sneak attack twice every round.

@SerifSansSerif

18 күн бұрын

Perfect response. I would have done 1d4 per level instead of 1d6 every 2 for sneak attack and that would boost dpr enough to make it viable with everyone else's buffs. The cunning strikes are trash but if it's 2 d4's and i have 2x more dice to swap out, if i ever want to do so, it's not as costly as the current d6 count as well. OR get rid of "advantage" requirement for sneak attack entirely and just have "don't have disadvantage" which simplifies as rogues will do anything and everything including selling their own grandmother, mother, and first born to get sneak attack in and all these masteries and "abilities" are basically there to give more conditions where you get to use sneak attack. (Which pc's care about more than they do the fact that advantage gives more consistent successful hits). Swashbuckler now kicks ass, not because its sneak attack is any better but because the 1v1 is a HUGE quality of life increase, and the ability to hit and run means both melee and movement are possible and the roguenisn't relegated to spending 40 minutes arguing with the dm about where they have to stand precisely to make a single attack roll with advantage while still in firing range of the target and where they theoretically have line of sight.

Rogue is not a martial class. It is martial adjacent.

@aetriandimitri190

20 күн бұрын

Martial support essentially, its what monk should've been

Interesting thoughts but they really dont suit your titel. Maybe more like better and good but not so flashy 🤔 Personally I really liked the changes and especially in combo with the new surprise rules.

Creating a sneak attack opportunity for the thief by the thief sounds good...At first. However setting it up for the next round with a successful basic shot sounds cheesy, or video gamey, no real world analogy. There are many better Lore-ish ways like having Deceptive Feint attacks, Confusing Tumble Manuever-enemy is baffled by the Thief's movement and is unsure of his defense, trick shots like : Trip Shot (Makes hit enemy trip), Dazing shot- enemy is so shocked from the hit location they are dazed for a round and open to sneak attacks, etc. as examples from a whim.

Rogue may be behind in dpr, but they fill a nice role. Rogue provides nice debuffs while being relatively safe bouncing in and out of combat. The heavier melee characters shouldn't need to worry about their safety as much as they are trying to protect the squishier less mobile characters. That's all while having skill expertise and reliable talent out of combat.

There is one thing treeant monk mentioned the arcane trickster gets that wasn't mentioned, supposedly something good

"Feels like it got left behind compared to the Martial classes..." I wish everyone didn't feel like their character should feel like a Mountain-moving hellrazing version of Thor. For example. when I play a Cleric, I play the character as a very Intentional, Devout, and quiet individual, with a charitable heart, but I never expect the character to feel like a demigod. -But maybe I'm different.

@coranbaker6401

20 күн бұрын

This isn't about feeling like a god, this is about the classes getting roughly equal amounts of value from a gameplay perspective so that everyone can have just as much with every class without feeling like they're getting punished for making a bad choice.

@VMSelvaggio

20 күн бұрын

@@coranbaker6401 True and valid. I just don't feel like every class should be able to shake the gates of hell when people have been complaining about the Martial vs Caster divide.

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

So the thing is that I don’t feel like every class and character needs to feel like Thor lol. I even said how much I love Cunning Strike because it provides options, despite actually losing damage. I think that is an overall net positive for the game. I think there is a ton of value in classes and characters that do things that aren’t just damage. That doesn’t mean that one class should be severely left behind though. That said, I don’t think the Rogue is THAT for behind and I’ve yet to see everything anyway. I highly doubt anything will be as disproportionately behind as the 2014 Monk was.

@VMSelvaggio

20 күн бұрын

@@InsightCheck Keep an eye out at Noon today, Warlock is next on the list!

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

@VMSelvaggio yup! Can’t wait!

You gotta love how wotc make all their money by mining pathfinder and 3.5e for ideas...

We won’t know how strong rouge is until the community plays it for a year. It got several key impactful changes. 1. Because of weapon masteries, Rogue can functionally get multi attack with daggers at level 1, which frees up their bonus action. (Every rogue can be a swashbuckler now) 2. Rogue can trade 3.5 sneak attack damage to apply status conditions like prone which gives it team synergy that it didn’t have before. 3. All of the individual rogue subclasses got buffed. (And we still don’t know if they’ve made rogue specific magic weapons that interact with sneak attack, which is the main factor holding 2014 rogue back damage wise).

@AruthaSilverthorn

20 күн бұрын

All of the above improve Hit or QoL instead of the actual damage numbers. More so you have to sac damage for utility while Brutal Strikes sacrifices Hit rate and gets more damage and utility. So rogues damage cap reduces with more consistency but absolutely no buff to damage capability. Overall somehow devs got the impression that rogue does “massive” damage without recognising the whole truth which is more like “rogues centralise all their damage into one massive strike” but not bigger than others do for a proper round.

@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112

20 күн бұрын

@@AruthaSilverthorn not quite true. Rogues’ ranged damage is fine, not exemplary but within baseline. The disparity between rogue damage and other martial classes is a side effect of 5e magic weapon design benefiting multiple hits over single hits, and we don’t know how that’s been changed. But more importantly, team utility is functionally a damage buff for the party, which is the actual measure of a feature’s impact. (For example, the arcane trickster can now knock two targets prone for the cost of only 3.5 average sneak attack damage. That effect is worth far more than 3.5 damage since it would allow a barbarian to use its new critical strike feature for extra damage or a fighter to use a damage oriented weapon mastery like cleave instead of topple. Both of which are a net damage bonus.) Since rogue buffs are more complicated than a flat damage upgrade. We need more information and practical testing before we can assess their relative impact.

@AruthaSilverthorn

20 күн бұрын

@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 we definitely agree on all of the above applications, but I disagree that that leads to a very satisfactory experience for players in a real life game, especially ones who gravitate to the Rogue “massive damage” playstyle, the one class who should support sneaking and solo play. Only a couple of counters, some subclasses having to over compensate by oversupplying utility like AT, may end up in every subclass having to jump through hoops. And ranged vs melee is a bit of a red herring since there is practically no difference except weapons between a fighters ranged vs melee, now that feats have been mostly nerfed. And engaging in another way, what would be the downsides of approximately d8+5 boosting in damage to someone struggling to deal enough damage to knock out or complete with Paladin Ranger Barbarian? We still have one of those hits doing the “massive” damage while the others just act as backup. Rogues fantasy doesn’t typically follow the set up for others archetype, it’s supposed to be the finish the job archetype, or at least let subclasses choose which. But finish the job isn’t really there at the moment.

@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112

20 күн бұрын

@@AruthaSilverthorn Ranged vs. melee damage definitely isn’t a red herring. Though it depends on encounter design, ranged damage is generally safer, almost always more reliable, and synergizes with aoe effects and disables. Melee damage is only superior with GMs who frequently work environmental effects like weather or cover into encounters. But more to the point, it’s interesting to consider your suggestion that the new rogue design doesn’t fulfill the fantasy of being a solo damage dealer. I might even agree, but I would say that’s a good thing. DnD is a team game. The system should encourage and reward players for working together. The edgy loner rogue that doesn’t work with others is a bad fantasy for a team environment. It doesn’t fit. A selfish fantasy is a bad fantasy. And the big problem with the 2014 rogue is that only enables self centered play. 2014 Rogues hide to protect themselves so that their teammates get focused, and they kill the cool enemies to take the spotlight for themselves. They are not mechanically capable of enabling other player characters or sharing the spotlight in any way. That’s the central flaw of the 2014 rogue’s design. Compare that to the Paladin which does damage, but also holds the front line, heals allies, and protects them from spell effects. 2014 Rogue didn’t need to hit harder. It needed to collaborate better.

@DaDunge

20 күн бұрын

Prone really isn't that strong a condition considering you've alreayd sneak attacked. If you coukd knock them prone then sneak attakc then it would be powerful but now it's an advantage you will never get to use and halving their movement the next turn. I will take the 3.5 damage thank you very much. If the party wants advantage they can use faerie fire and I can benefit too.

I love adding conditions, I hate losing damage. Would have allowing rogues to deal one of those conditions for free when they sneak attack really be a OP thing?

@zTom_

20 күн бұрын

Also, Crawford said they wanted all classes to have _some_ reason to be happy with a short rest. Rogues have nothing that recharges on a SR. A cool idea would be even ONE free use of a Cunning Strike. That would be an in-built incentive for players to use the new ability instead of always sticking with pure damage out of years of habit. :)

@shadow-faye

20 күн бұрын

Probably not at the beginning when it's just 1d6 but it is less flavourful if it's not tied to sneak attack

@shadow-faye

20 күн бұрын

@@zTom_ or maybe rather than a free use, since the use different numbers of dice it could be a certain number of free dice

@zTom_

20 күн бұрын

​@@shadow-faye In my mind, the free use would only be about the 3 low level options, not the high-level ones like the insta knock-out. So pick any of the 3 and use it for zero dice cost once per short rest, regardless of its normal cost. :)

@DaDunge

20 күн бұрын

Not really seeing as the conditions either require a constitution saving throw or suck.

I think the big issue with rogue is that pretty much every class gets a pretty blanket buff. Even powerful classes like wizards are strictly stronger. Classes like fighters gain the ability to move when they use their second wind. Not just new options but existing features have more firepower, rarely asking you to give something up. Even when barbarian also seemingly has the ability to trade damage (in the form of advantage) for utility using brutal strikes, mirroring the rogues cunning strike the barbarian still adds extra damage to the brutal strike so they still see an increase to DPR while rogues get a decrease on their sister feature. Cunning strike is the only 2024 feature added from 2014 that says "Oh you want to use the new 2024 stuff? Ok, you'll have to give up some damage." It's versatility, but it's versatility that is very careful to not strictly be a buff when every other class in the game was strictly buffed, even when they REALLY didn't need it. Which is a shame because even before rogues use Cunning Strikes rogues are a resourceless class that do less damage than classes that rely on expendable resources and ran out of them. Perhaps cunning strike would have a better neiche if WOTC gave rogues a few extra sneak attack dice to spend on it.

@shadow-faye

20 күн бұрын

They also said everyone would have reason to take a short rest now and rogues still don't. Feels like an oversight

For the Assassin’s Roving Aim, you can still move before attacking, just not before choosing to use Steady Aim as your bonus action. I would doubt many DMs would really enforce the timing restriction, but it is generally a small inconvenience rather than a real detriment.

@lapetitecuillereetlepaindo3005

13 күн бұрын

"You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn" You can't use it if you moved.

@tylercool1400

12 күн бұрын

Yes, but you can use Steady Aim, and then are not reduced to 0 Speed and can therefore still move before attacking.

Assasin imho is pretty terrible. A subclass that does something on its first round of combat and nothing else is boring. The damage is so low to be almost irrelevant. Contrast it with moon druid, battlemaster fighter, vengeance paladin. So much good offense and reusable round after round.

@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar

20 күн бұрын

assassin is also the only rogue subclass that provides ANY dpr increase whatsoever. Every other rogue class only provides features that DON'T increase your damage. Also, damage on the first round is better than damage on any other round. Maybe not better than a larger quantity of damage over multiple rounds. But damage early is good, and so is winning initiative.

@g00se99

20 күн бұрын

@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar we will have to agree to disagree. I think every other rogue subclass is more useful and interesting. One class has to be worst and right now its a race between Rogue and Ranger.

@tommihommi1

20 күн бұрын

​​@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liarusing winning initiative to *control* opponents so that they then can't deal damage and can be finished easier is a lot more powerful than dealing a little bit of extra damage in the first round or to debuff opponents and buff your party

@soysaucesausage

20 күн бұрын

@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar I think the other subclasses have their damage boosts bundled into their other abilities. The arcane trickster can cast haste and double sneak attack each round, the thief can cast spells with their bonus action, and the soulknife will be adding dice to each miss to get another shot at proc-ing sneak attack etc. I am worried Assassin will have the worst DPR of the lot

If this is the weakest class ill take it

I think they are very capable, and their damage does not need to keep up 1:1 with fighters and barbarians. With the ease of getting advantage, the rogue in the party is often doing more damage than my raging barbarian. Their skills allow them to have the best role in the exploration pillar and do a lot of damage.

@DaDunge

20 күн бұрын

they never have kept up 1:1 with fighters and barbarians. The fighter in our party always outdamaged me unless I got a sneak attack off as a reaction. Barbarians maybe but Barbarians are a lot more duarable than the rogue.

DC20 rogue is adding conditions right at level 1 and not even at a loss of damage, also there are soooo many more light weapons in DC20 that the variety of Rogues is much more interesting. We don't even have subclasses yet and I still find the DC20 rogue far more exciting to play then the dndnot6thed5.24dndONEnotdndONE

@CooperAATE

20 күн бұрын

Okay, cool. Go play that.

@dwgautier

20 күн бұрын

@@CooperAATE and that's the problem for wotc, I will be. Tens of thousands of others will be too.

People complain about the Rogue's damage output, but like, I'm fine with their damage being lower than other martials. They're not meant to be god-like combat units. They're meant to be fast-movibg opportunists that screw enemies over, setting them up to get destroyed by the party. I think these changes are great because it will help being back the identity of the Rogue

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

I fully agree with you and said as much in the video too. There is a drop off point though (at least for me). But in any case, I don’t think it’s anywhere near that point.

@DaDunge

20 күн бұрын

The rogue was behidn before, they're even further behing now. if we switch to the new edition I will ask ro reclass to a battle master fighter, this rogue sucks.

They tried so hard not to "mess up the rogue" that they just let it become obsolete. But i guess this won't stop people from thinking their character is super dun and powerful when they roll 5 dice in one attack

The class isnt broken but it hasnt scaled to everyone else. It sucks now.

This is why I think rogue+fighter+ranger should be a single class. Rogue and fighter separately are too narrow.

I’d give them extra attack it will increase their damage and offer another chance for sneak attack.

@nm2358

20 күн бұрын

Does extra attack even really do anything for the Rogue? Unless they're ranged damage dealers, I'm not sure they get a lot out of one more melee attack.

@g00se99

20 күн бұрын

@nm2358 better than nothing :p

@zTom_

20 күн бұрын

They kind of have it thanks to the Nick property now? 🤔

@rango5537

20 күн бұрын

@@nm2358 just dpr increase but if they miss their first attack trying to sneak attack for whatever reason they still have the second for sneak attack.

@nm2358

20 күн бұрын

@@rango5537 I think 99% of the value here is just for second shot at a sneak attack or for more ranged damage potential. Rogue melee options are a lot weaker in general, especially when Cunning Strike is ranged friendly from what I recall.

I hoped they nerfed reliable talent. Very annoying ability.

@guilhermemelo3760

20 күн бұрын

It was brought forward to lvl 7

@InsightCheck

20 күн бұрын

lol yeah they made it come online ever earlier

@zTom_

20 күн бұрын

Most Casters already can do better than a Rogue with Reliable Talent with a low-ish level spell or class ability (like Wild Shape, for infiltration). Without it, they should just drop the class from the book 😅

@MrSpatafrano

20 күн бұрын

​@@zTom_ Wild shape is actually way worse for infiltration. Most beasts don't have proficiencies in stealth (some have advantage). Even invisibility is worse, it only gives advantage. Is there even a need for a rogue to roll for stealth? At level 7 with expertise, it will be a minimum of around 20 on every roll. And it's not only stealth, a rogue can be the best face, stronger than a barbarian, know more than the wizard, etc.... And a rogue doesn't necessarily need to choose one of these.

@qwell1170

20 күн бұрын

@@MrSpatafrano several things that you might not be aware of: Druid wildshape allows the Druid to keep several thing, one of which is skills. But who in the drow fortress is going to question why there is a spider running around. Invisibility offers removing line of sight, which does two things, firstly it prevents sight based effects from occurring, as an example, hold person no long has a valid target. Secondly it allows a creature to hide anywhere. Because if a creature has line of sight, you are perceived, unless you have a feature that states otherwise (namely skulker), and both blind sight and tremor sense only allow perception checks to be made, only true sight and, rules as intended, see invisible, will allow a creature to directly detect an invisible creature. There are other thing I could bring up, like the spells pass without trace or Alarm, and eloquence bard getting a restricted reliable talent at third level, but if reliable talent is really that frustrating, then don’t let them roll or make them not matter (assuming your the DM). The locked door has no key hole to pick, the sword can only be pulled by one with martial prowess, the diplomats won’t listen to non-harpers. But by doing that constantly, your telling the players to not play high level rouges.