Totally disagree with Nerdy about Nynaeve's reaction to the balefire attack. It is established very early on in the books, and I'm pretty sure Rand and Nynaeve both know, that the bigger the balefire stream, the further back in the pattern people are burned back. And the further back you change history, the more damage it does to the pattern. So killing a lot of people damages the pattern a fair amount, but killing them with a balefire stream so huge makes them not have existed for a long time, which really fucks with the pattern. So if he had instead killed Graendal with a small stream of balefire, it wouldn't have damaged the pattern barely at all. A huge stream like he used has a high chance of unraveling reality, to the point that you don't even get to the last battle. Now whether it was a necessary risk to take is a conversation, but I totally understand why Nynaeve freaked out, and I don't think it means she isn't ready to do what is needed to save the world. She was concerned Rand just fucked reality.

@jsbrads1

7 ай бұрын

The assumption that the pattern can’t compensate for a Balefire strike existed back during the Age of Legends despite all evidence to the contrary 🤷

@Agramil

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I didn't understand his argument at all. Yes, using balefire against the forsaken is necessary, but it is a matter of scale and risk. Is Nerdy ok with Rand balefiring the whole of Arad Doman? (disregarding the humans lives and only focusing on the survival of the pattern). The pattern can probably survive a couple of fortresses being balefired, but it is a calculated risk with unknown consequences.

Love the show! Loial explains to Rand (and us) in the firts book what the pattern is: "The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and lives are the threads it weaves. No one can tell how the thread of his own life will be woven into the Pattern, or how the thread of a people will be woven. It gave us the Breaking of the World, and the Exile, and Stone, and the Longing, and eventually it gave us back the stedding before we all died. Sometimes I think the reason you humans are the way you are is because your threads are so short. They must jump around in the weaving." "The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?" (Loial to Rand, The Eye of the World, Chapter 36)

I think Jordan and Sanderson did a great job making things from Rands POV seem very heavy. I always felt what Rand was doing seemed logical when I was in his POV, but then from other perspectives it makes sense why they freak out about what Rand does. But I always felt the heavy hand of what Rand is going through. The stress seems crazy. The world is falling apart around them and Rand is looking at the big picture trying to solve the problem, while lots of others around him seem to willfully be ignoring that same problem. Which sometimes you can't figure out what their solution is. You find yourself saying to the book page, "If you don't have a good suggestion, then get out of the way". Lol Which makes me so angry with Cadsuane. It's like she and others tbf, won't see things from his perspective.

Ok just to nitpick another commenter, Sally Ride was not the first woman in space. Cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova beat her to it by several years. Today she's a member of the Duma.

We knew Egwene would level up ever since she got captured again. 😀

@mwill8248

Жыл бұрын

It was really that last kidnapping for Egwene that got her enough holes punched in her frequent kidnapping card to cash it in for one massive level up.

- Even with an overabundance of magic users you actually do need spears. And a lot of them. Because when both sides have magic users, they tend to balance each other out. And that is where you need spears to kill opposing spears. Or your magic users will be skewered while busy with enemy magic. - Balefired souls *can* be reborn in the future. They cannot be restored by the Dark One since he cannot reach back in time. - No, prophecies absolutely do not nullify the choices leading up to the final battle. Prophecies only tell the battle will happen and the Dragon will get to it. They tell nothing about the power balance, about the outcome, or about the win conditions. So choices absolutely matter same as choices leading to any normal battle. There is no practical difference here. - Egwene's need walk is well described in the text itself. The Tinker camp reminds her of their values and way of life and that leads her to reexamine her motivations and approach to reuniting the Tower. There are no convoluted reasons for her arriving there. Just directing her thoughts into the right channel. - No one knowing anything about the Dark One is the interesting part. Anyone can prepare for and fight a simple battle with a large army. There is nothing supernatural or difficult in it. We already *have* the stakes. The existence of the world. You do not know *how* exactly the world can be destroyed. - Fluted means carved with ridges or grooves. It's always so interesting to explain English words to English-speaking people who in theory are supposed to know them better than me. :) - Yes, whole cities were balefired. And the world literally broke. That is precisely why the Breaking is much worse than a simple world catastrophe. You often ask how could so much be lost from the Age of Legends. That is why. Literal metaphysical underpinnings of the world were almost shattered. The fact that the characters *also* do not know how much damage to the Pattern can be done before the breaking is the point. That is why they are scared of *any* use of balefire. You do not know which straw breaks the camel back. You are potentially risking the universe with every use. That is why they are scared and the more so the larger the scale of the action. The equivalent is swinging an axe at a branch you are sitting on. You are arguing that a great swing does not matter compared to small chippings. But every great swing can bring you crashing down and you do not know when exactly that can happen. Yes, balefire works. Where should we stop? Balefire one Forsaken? Fine. Balefire a building? A city? A country? The world? That is the difference. Beating the devil and losing the world defeats the purpose. That is why the episode is so much worse than a simple mass murder. Rand killing innocents is a separate issue. Nynaeve's point is simple: Do not kill hundreds of people as collateral (especially as you do not really know whether they are all as good as dead) with a nuke, choose another approach where a stiletto will get the job done. - You are still misunderstanding the 3 oaths. Their point is not to completely neuter the magic users. That would be self-defeating. The point is to make magic users safe *enough* for people to accept them. From the point of view of ordinary people Aes Sedai literally destroyed the world at one point. The oaths constrain them *just enough* for people to not want to eradicate them and accept their assistance. Also they do work well enough even in practice. Aes Sadai really cannot go on a killing spree whenever they want. You really can get absolutely reliable information out of them if you know how to ask questions properly. Etc. That is why neither throwing the oaths away nor making them ironclad would work as you seem to want to do. Either way would result in catastrophe at this stage. Unfettered magic users worked in the previous Age. This one still has way too much baggage to allow that (of course with the Age coming to a close the situation will shift).

@mjbull5156

Жыл бұрын

It is almost that there is a theme throughout the books about the letter of the law being subverted by clever use of language, but that does not make it good to have no law.

@joey98765

Жыл бұрын

They have repeatedly said that they do not want clarification or their questions answered unless they very specifically ask…

@hedinsee6830

Жыл бұрын

@@joey98765 I did not answer any questions. I stated my take on their arguments on various points.

@Lttlemoi

Жыл бұрын

To strengthen the point about the need of spearmen in a world with magic users, look at the current armed conflicts. You have drones, rockets, artillery, fighter jets, helicopters and all other kinds of military technology and in the end, soldiers with small arms, grenades and MANPADS are still very useful and potentially very dangerous to the high profile machines.

@wraithflaire1639

Жыл бұрын

​@@joey98765 Most of what he said isn't said or explained explicitly in the text. It was contextualizing themes without direct reference. The going to the camp part is admittedly a very gray area.

32:30 Kamakaze agents indeed. The final lines of the chapter are also a very direct reference the famous quote attributed (right or wrong) to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto post Pearl Harbor: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Clarus' face when Nerdy pronounces Bryne like the audio book and She tries to correct him and he says it again. LMAO

Rand killing graendal as he did is not a moral problem, it's shocking because Rand is now so detached

Nerdy comparing the balefire in Tanchico to what Rand did is him saying "people were shooting machine guns in Germany and the land wasn't effected, so who cares about dropping nukes in Japan"

Re: Depiction of women in WOT: The series is explicitly written to have gender dynamics that are the reverse of our Age. Specifically, it is a society where power and influence are controlled by women instead of men. Some have interpreted RJ’s intent to be a commentary on the misogyny of our world. A less charitable interpretation is that it’s just another male writing women in a problematic way. I tend to think RJ was going for the former, but his execution veered into the latter at times.

Happy that you guys like/love Rand (now). He will always be my favorite just because his journey is so amazing. I hope they will do that justice in the TV show and they won't shove him aside for Rosemund Pike... So excited for you reading the next books!

Great episode! I truly believe that next week's episode will be epic too. "Denouement" is not a word that I would use to describe the remaining chapters of this book lol. Enjoy the read!

Min may not help in battle...but she needs to be in the team. What she brings to Rand is far more important than someone who can kill a Forsaken.

@iforgot6088

Жыл бұрын

True. Rand has THOUSANDS of people that can kill Darkspawn and Forsaken. He has ONE person he can open up to, that makes Min infinitely more important.

@mwill8248

Жыл бұрын

I really think Cadsuane and Min are supposed to be a dichotomy on how to approach mental health - Cadsuane is what you get if you try to berate someone back to a good mental health state and Min is what you get if you try love and positive emotional support. One is helpful, one is not at all.

@gilian2587

Жыл бұрын

Without Min... Rand might have become forsaken numero uno.

Chapter 39 is my favorite chapter in the entire series. So glad you guys finally made it 😁

Reeeeeaaaally underestimating the damage that balefire does to the pattern. It’s like tugging threads out of a shirt - tug enough and the whole thing falls apart. The real battle in WOT is about the dark one wanting to break the wheel - to undo reality. The dark one -wants- people to use balefire. It works to his ends. He wants to tear apart reality itself. He does it by tearing down not only the physical world, but people’s spirits and morality. At this point in the book, the dark one is winning. The forsaken hardly matter. What matters is driving the dragon over the edge. To give up on people, on the fight, on the pattern, and on the purpose of existing. If he gives up on the pattern, the dark one wins. He doesn’t win by killing Rand. He wins by breaking him. And Rand is getting very very damaged at this point.

Verin is the goat. Ironic how someone from the Black Ajah is the best Aes Sedai lol

Can we have a button for "Nerdy has gone off the rails defending a position that he backed himself into and won't let it go, please drop it" button? I really enjoy everything else in these book clubs.

@aprils9178

Жыл бұрын

I love nerdy debating himself into a corner.

Natrin's Barrow was simply sad for me, so many conflicting feelings. Rand is not ok, at all. Rand balefiring the fortress was bad, his older self would have never done it, him choosing for all those innocent people wasn't right...but at the same time, they had already been stripped of that right, and in such a brutal way too. Using balefire is bad for the Pattern but it's also the only way to make sure the Forsaken stop coming back again and again, and the only way he had to be sure Graendal was dead. Maybe they could have planned something else to kill her but, as Rand wondered, how many more lives were lost because he hesitated before? Nynaeve's reaction is true to her character. She hates what Rand is becoming and still thinks that anything short than death can be healed. It's just such a difficult situation. The only part i didn't like in the scene was Min talking about balefire, it makes things confusing about how it works if you haven't read Jordan's interview about it. This is a case where an unreliable narrator didn't work for me.

@mjbull5156

Жыл бұрын

There was also Rand rather coldly using his envoy as a test sample to determine if he killed Greandal with the mega balefire blast. That was much of the thing about that whole plan which horrified Nynaeve.

@bluelight17

Жыл бұрын

@@mjbull5156 yeah. Though i admit as a reader Ramshalan's fate was the last thing on my mind😅

@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t

Жыл бұрын

“How do you fight someone smarter than yourself?" Rand whispered. "The answer is simple. You make her think that you are sitting down across the table from her, ready to play her game. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can.”

@bluelight17

Жыл бұрын

@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t love that line😃

You do dream, you just don't remember it. I usually don't remember my dreams unless they reoccur, so I'll have weeks and months of shutting my eyes and then waking up hours later, and then I'll have days where I talk to cows walking on two legs again and again or am hunted by a werewolf outside the house and can't escape (nightmares are the most common of my recurring dreams...)

With the discussion on the moralities of war, I really want to hear their thoughts on Dalinar from Storm light archives even more now

@josuevazquez6639

Жыл бұрын

Bruh

1:54:00 Did anyone else see the picture of someone giving Jack Nicholson a picture of Heath Ledger as the joker to sign? His expression is priceless...

I understand Egwene's frustartion with being rescued, but a Seanchan raid seems to be outside the parameters of what she had told Siuan to ignore. From all that Siuan knew, Egwene was helpless aginst that attack because of the forkroot and would not be able to manipulate the Seanchan like she was doing with Elaida's power structure. Also, Siuan has a Lawful chararcter if she is excellent at parsing the letter of the law. The Tower Guards are part of the institution of the White Tower, so her offense at the copied uniforms are part of her defending the institution. I believe under the current Geneva Conventions, dressing in an enemy uniform is a war crime that justifies summary execution for an offending soldier.

Didn't know where else to put this. Thanks to whoever gifted me with a channel membership during this stream ❤

Verin is not Black Ajah she is Light Ajah by decree of the Amrylin Seat.

For the idea that reincarnation doesn't matter, Rand's repulsion to the idea of women dying is due to his past life, yes, he has memories of his past life, but he had that repulsion before he gained Lews Therin's memories. There's no way to know what is and isn't part of a person because of the experiences of their past lives. And I think we're already seeing the damage done to the pattern due to balefire and everything else. Like you mentioned, the White Tower had entire sections swapped around due to the pattern failing. Finally, there is another way to keep Forsaken from coming back, Rand has done it before. He can cut people off from their connection to the Dark One. He's not doing the ONLY thing, he's doing the EASY thing. It's very interesting to hear Nerdy advocate for "the ends justify the means" when we've seen, repeatedly, where that leads. For the "women are just mad that men are doing things the way they don't want" statement, it really seems more like the men see a problem and the quickest fix for it, and a lot of the women are concerned with the long reaching consequences of the method the men use. OH! That comment I just heard "What happens right now doesn't matter, only the end matters". Knowing how things plays out, that's so funny to me. Sorry for all the edits, I'm adding to this as I hear more of the video.

Save a horse, ride a member of the band of the red hand.

I made this as a chat in live. I said I was hoping the death of Tuon wouldn't be metaphorical or rhetorical or poetical or any other fancy way, just *splat*, straight up.

Also, Sanderson did a podcast where they came up with titles for future fast and furious installments. I think you can get a good idea his humor from this.

Regarding not knowing the Dark Ones plan: it may not be satisfying narratively, but consider this. The Dark One is basically the counter point to the Creator, literal God. Humanity is so far beneath him that he'd never even bother to explain his plans to his general army. Moridin is his general, Shaidar Haran is whatever he is *spoiler withheld*, and they direct everyone else. To them, no one else knows the plan because no one else needs to. They just need to do as they're told and not mess it up. Again, maybe not narratively satisfying, but it makes total sense .

at 1:16 you talk about the Dark One and Rand. I have always felt that Rands increasing madness is the Dark One winning. its his tactic in addition to the physical violence of the trollocs and myrdaals

Entire white tower after this point: "She had it comin' she had it comin' she only had himself to blame If you'd have been there If you'd have seen it I betcha you would have done the same"

One of the best book clubs ever!

I’m a book ahead of y’all and it’s so funny watching your speculations loool

It's probably been a million pages by now, but it's been explained, probably by Moiraine, but the Wheel spins and creates the Pattern. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel will and so on. If the Wheel stops, the pattern stops, and the pattern is basically reality.

Re: Rand’s actions. The theme of this part of the series isn’t so much about Rand’s tactics or strategy. It’s about the state of his soul. Ultimately, the end of defeating The Dark One may be justified by any means necessary. Rand is fated to be the one to make the decisions. The Aes Sedai, because of who they are to the core and all of their priors regarding male channelers, simply cannot bring themselves to actually follow his lead. But if Rand becomes so desensitized to the collateral damage of his decisions and their consequences, he could stop caring about them altogether. If he can’t laugh or cry or feel emotions, he veers toward becoming a sociopath. And that runs the risk that when The Last Battle comes around, he might not care about the right things to make decisions to bring victory for the Light. Worse, he might not care enough to keep resisting the Dark One at all. If neither Shai’Tan nor Champion of the Light care what happens to humanity because of their actions, what’s the difference? Ultimately, that’s what Sorilea and Cadsuane are trying to prevent. And they’re fucking it up royally.

@iforgot6088

Жыл бұрын

Nerdy keeps justifying Rand's actions with "the ends justify the means" mentality, but then also complains that he doesn't know what the end is.

@colsanders4036

Жыл бұрын

Robert Jordan set this whole thing up in book one in the discussion of Aridhol's transition to Shadar Logath...this tranition with rand is effectively the same thing, and we have seen how it ends...very horrifying to conteplate.

Honestly there needed to be a limit to how much everyone give Egwene complete trust at this point. That's how she got captured the first time at the docks, just because it ended up well in the end it doesn't mean she didn't fail there. She kept on saying that she had everything under control in the Tower but that could have changed so fast, and during a Seanchan attack?? Just because she is the Amyrlin doesn't mean blind following. Rand gets called out all the time for doing his own thing, but since Egwene so often ends up failing upward the other characters too many times act as if she was right all along, no matter what happened before. If Elaida had half a brain she would have gotten Egwene tried and stilled (or at least kept isolated) the second she got captured. That said Egwene leading the novices and fighting the Seanchan was amazing.

@Nerdynightly The biggest horror about Rand destroying the palace was not that he killed hundreds or thousands of people. Nerdy is right, their minds have been destroyed. The problem/horror of this is that because he used balefire he destroyed their souls. This means that they will never be reborn. The forsaken deserve this but did everyone else? Definately a tough call, but this is the true horror of this scene. Now having said this, I do not have a better answer. It was very smart. But very horrible.

Picturing Eggy on floor 22 blasting slavers like Jeremy Irons in the first D&D movie blasting dragons. :D

When Rand used the True Power the Dark One latched onto his soul. Right now Rand is like The Witch King of Aginor.

Rand is in a tricky spot. Emotionally speaking 3:11:58

Ah yes...some of the best passages in the entire series. After Rhuidian, Emond's Field and Dumai's Wells, this is probably one of the strongest sections of the entire series.

@colsanders4036

Жыл бұрын

Overall agree to this point. But there is real strength in book 13, and many moments (chapter parts) in AMotL. But full chapter moments, very fair statement.

45:00 So does "Bachelor in PARADISE" Canada edition take place in Nunavut? 😂😂😂😂

for a good jack Nicholson movie try One flew over a cuckoo nest.

I'm only going to say this here because i've heard Nerdy say they don't read the YT comments, but...spoilers... Verin not having a clue to the DO's plan is a little snippet of the bigger picture, in my opinion...nobody at all knew exactly what the DO was attempting until Rand figures it out during TLB. and in essence, this entire series IS the last battle.

1:56:40 Nerdy finding out just how not nerdy klaroos is.

Actually if you listen to the WoT Idle competitions you could probably use all of those parodies to make a WoT musical!!!

Smut corner for Mistborn could be problematic at points... Don't feel like you need to every week is all I'm saying.

Thrilled to be "Like" # 420 on this video!

I will say, without explanation of course, that this book should have been called A Memory of Light and the last book should have been called something else. Nerdy wants stakes? RAFO.

How do I get gifted membership lol 14:55

Love to see Nerdy advocating for war crimes 🥲😋

O Fortuona... kzread.info/dash/bejne/m2ytutOfisixpdY.html

Now you guys are starting to understand why so many of us had the response to the TV show that we need you to get to the later books because we want to see our favorite things in live action. The scenes with Egwene and Verin and then Egwene defending the tower are way up there on the list of things we need to see.

The dark ending of this reading is a bit of a downer. But otherwise this reading is just perfect.

🙋‍♀️ one of the asexuals that sticks around for smut corner for the laughs. 😁

Nerdy. Seriously… come on man. You’re smart enough to understand how you could be affected by experiences you can’t directly remember… when you go on these ignorance tirades it just comes across as intellectually dishonest. 55:05

@ClarusCloset

Жыл бұрын

There is absolutely no evidence reincarnation exists

49:36 wrong. Read journey of the souls by Michael newton. 😑 49:36