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interesting experiment, beautifully executed and documented. i couldnt explain the results and decided to research it. the principles of tangzhong and yudane seem to be distinct even if they overlap a bit. tangzhong works predominantly by developing starches into a paste, which functions as an emulsifier, similar to how egg yolks or lecithin work when included in dough. also, the starch emulsion retains moisture and slows the migration of moisture from inside the finished bread toward the crust, extending shelf life. a tangzhong is usually not heated above 65C, as this temp is sufficient to develop a paste and higher temps will harden the paste and render it useless. in yundane, the predominant principle is using heat to activate amylase naturally present in the flour and causing it to rapidly alter the chemistry of starches to produce sugars and other smaller chains of carbohydrate. whereas typically bread starches begin to crystallize after baking and even attach to the gluten, the smaller chains produced by yudane resist crystallization and attachment, slowing hardening and 'staling' of the bread. to summarize: tangzhong relies mainly on emulsion, and yudane relies mainly on enzymes. i'll list my main sources at the end of this comment thanks for all your work. your channel is full of great ideas for experiments and you have this charming way of always pushing and questioning what we think we know about baking. i'll probably use yudane next time, though i might experiment with combining yudane and tangzhong, because, since they work a little differently, why not?. i also wonder if high gluten flour is necessary for a rich bread that rises quickly and how lower gluten flours might affect the result. finally, i note indo-pak roti is often made with 100% yudane, like your recent flour tortilla recipe primary sources for my research: -The Staling and Texture of Bread Made Using the Yudane Dough Method, Food Science and Technology Research, September 2014 -Influence of Amylase Addition on Bread Quality and Bread Staling, ACS Food Sci. Technol, July 2021

@dorisjimison7590

2 жыл бұрын

don't know who you are, but you are knowledgeable!!! Greatly appreciate your post and will keep it in my notes. Do you have a channel or a blong we can follow? You sound like a professional.

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the insightful comment. That also explains why the yudane dough was rising more rapidly. There was more food for the yeast to kick off.

@michaelw7831

Жыл бұрын

I wonder what the result would be if you used both methods. I.e. combined a tangzhong (for its emulsifying properties) and yudane (for its enzyme action) in a single loaf?

@BigBootyBatman

Жыл бұрын

So do both methods increase shelf life in the end?

@niccidee782

Жыл бұрын

You need to be hired by America's Test Kitchen. Fascinating read, thank you.

These videos are of excellent quality! The fact that you took the time to do a stop motion animation with the bowls shows how much thought and effort you put into each video! Thanks!

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you 🤩

@mahharteumahseoul1812

Жыл бұрын

and not to mention, he would have to wait for the doughs to proof, he would need to edit the narration to synchronise with the video demonstration, and he would have to write a clear explanation for this concept. Wow, this is a high quality video, i hope his videos would reach many more people, especially beginners like me. 👏😁

The thing to know about tangzhong is that u don't simply want to use the hydration for a given recipe. It allows you to increase hydration while keeping the consistency the same as a lower hydration recipe. So for example if you have a recipe with a hydration of say 70% ,using tangzhong you are able to increase it to say 75% without the dough slacking and keeping a consistency of that of the original 70%. The dough is easier to work with and the bread even moister and softer

@bodomags

10 ай бұрын

Exactly!

@cliffcox7643

25 күн бұрын

But how do you calculate how much to make, say for a sourdough recipe..such as mine..650 flour, 451 water, 140g starter. How much paste do I make?

Tangzhong is in fact the same word as Yudane (Japanese Kanji, one of their three alphabets and the biggest one, are just Chinese characters read differently), it was seemingly popularized by a Chinese author in a book called "65ºC Tangzhong Bread" which is where the west took it from, but that author was just using the Chinese reading of Yudane. From what I gather, Hokkaido milk bread uses Tangzhong but they will read it as Yudane locally.

@SeverusFelix

2 жыл бұрын

I love how in Japanese you can read your kanji in Old Chinese if you like just to be fancy. I guess it's sort of like if your name is "John Farmer" you can call yourself "Jacobus Agricola" to be cooler

@florianmaier104

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on! It is infact one of the rare loanwords in Chinese from Japanese (the other way arround is quite common) 湯種 = 'hot water' 'seeds'

@LocrianDorian

2 жыл бұрын

@@SeverusFelix Except nobody does or thinks that in Japan.

@mochilliboo

2 жыл бұрын

@@florianmaier104 I find Japanese loan words are not rare anymore..Chinese-speaking people love to borrow Japanese kanji words even though they have their own to describe the same concept. Especially true in Taiwan where the people are generally Japanophiles. case in point:. 職人，芡飯

@JennieC.

2 жыл бұрын

Just to clarify, Yvonne Chen is a Taiwanese author not Chinese.

Great experiment! I can tell you why Yudane produces a better result. Tangzhong kills all the amylase enzymes in the floor with heat while Yudane preserves them. The heat activated enzymes in Yudane produces more complex sugars and improved though. Another trick I use with Yudane is i make it a couple of days in advance. The additional time makes it very sweet.

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

👍👍👍

@dorisjimison7590

2 жыл бұрын

Damon - what type of flour do you use? Thank you for posting this. I love understanding the science in bread making.

@damoncz

2 жыл бұрын

I use Canadian bread flour which is 13.5 percent protein. I think you can go as low as 11.5 percent and still be ok

@alexleezoot

2 жыл бұрын

Both produce similar results but Yudane is definitely better. It's in fact patented and fully researched and tested method for their specific results. Whereas Tangzhong was an adaptation to the Yudane method by several homebaker / Author which became popular worldwide. Tangzhong only became popular because everyone wants to make Hokkaido milk bread. This bread only exists outside of Japan!! There is no such bread! It's just plain white bread 食パン.

@fbpliegorrivero8869

2 жыл бұрын

And if after heat deactivating amylases one lets yeast do all the work? I wonder how this would work. Or perhaps after cooling add more flour with intact enzymes. I'll give it a go.

Amazing and useful! Thank you!

Valuable content, thanks!

Extremely well done! Thank you for the information. Nicely edited as well.

Going to try this out later this week. Thanks!

Great information and experiments!! 🙏🏼

I've been waiting for anyone to do this for ages. THANX!!

Thanks for testing these 2 methods

Thank you for making this greatly detailed video

Thanks for the video, great description. I was wondering about the difference - all clear now!

Thank you...great systematic demonstrations

Thank you for doing that. Im learning alot.

Beautifully made video. Thank you for this.

thank you for this experiment

I love your videos. Very informative.

Excellent video!

this is so helpful and informative! thank you

Great vid. Very helpful. Presentaion & your style are professional.

Tks for testing the different method. Great job

I remember asking you about this in your burger buns video. I'm so happy you've made this detailed comparison video. And perfect timing too because I'm going to be making a Hokkaido-inspired pav today.

Interesting AF. Goated Video as always.

Incredible video

This is a beautifully done and really interesting and useful experiment. Thanks! 🙂

Thank you for all these awesome videos. I like the good quality and the content. Especially this video is very interesting for me

Tangzhong method makes more sense for sweet breads , that will help them last for days , sinse doughs that use milk goes bad in a shorter time than the ones that use water

Brilliant explanation! Thanks so much 🙏🙏🙏🤗👍👍👍

Thank you for the video

Couple tricks that I use for Tangzhong. I mix the flour and milk in a small bowl and microwave it until its thick with a few stirs along the way. Then to cool it quickly I add it to my mixing bowl with the cold liquid. That equalizes the temperature perfectly. Great work on this video.

@MoPoppins

2 жыл бұрын

I always microwave mine, too. Just faster & less mess to clean up.

@imelpomene

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, I microwave tangzhong. No need to use the stovetop.

@theweatherisaokay4964

2 жыл бұрын

I cook my tangzhong, microwave always gave me uneven consistency.

@kjdude8765

2 жыл бұрын

@@theweatherisaokay4964 I found that it did also, if I didn't stir it a few times. Normally I do 30 seconds and then stir followed by 15 second runs each with a stir until I get a good consistency.

@theweatherisaokay4964

2 жыл бұрын

@@kjdude8765 Yea, need to do that.

Excellent experiment 👍

Great explanation of both. It is a pleasure to watch videos like this

Great 👍🏼 video. Thanks 😊 ❤👍🏼

I've never heard of these before. Fascinating! I have a lot of learning still to do.

thanks for your good job to us!!!

How Interesting it is to see both ways.. nice work man keep it up

Dude! Phenomenal video. I love the production quality and the level of information you provide. Thank you.

I always learn the most from your videos. Thanks for sharing this experiment.

I love your channel! Never used either recipes but thank you for the comparison! I've learned so much on how to be a better baker from your channel. I believe in using quality ingredients and proofing time to produce similar or better quality bread without going through so many steps! Continue making videos, they are so informative!

I've never heard of the Yudane, but that looks a lot easier than the Tangzhong that I have used with similar or even better results. Definitely going to give this one a shot!

Besides the great detailed explanation, I was amazed for the stop motion sequences of your videos! Congrats! Saludos desde México! :)

Superb video !!! Thanks, ))

Great video - thanks for sharing this comparison test - I have been quite pleased with the results when using the Yudane method.

I like these kind of informations. Thank you for sharing.

Thanks for this!

The evaporation problem with cooking tangzhong was exactly what I ran into for my dinner rolls on Easter. My gas stovetop heats aggressively, while the paste looked good, it had lost a lot of liquid. The dough ended up just a little too dry and tough, and as a result, there was less of a rise when proofing, there was less gluten development, and less oven spring from the steam- the end texture was way off. I was kicking myself, too, because I had weighed the tangzhong and probably could've added back the lost liquid. But now I know I can just do the yudane method and have a more reliable result with less fuss. Thank you for explaining!

@kjdude8765

2 жыл бұрын

I microwave the milk and flour in a small bowl. Heats much faster and with less risk of evaporation.

I really liked how you tested tangzhong & yudane. Thank you for your video.

Fantastic - Video + Presentation + Narration! Glad I found this channel, Cheers! 🔥

Your videos are amazing! The content is very helpful. Thank you.

@ChainBaker

Жыл бұрын

🙏

Thank you for the comparison. I’m going to try the Yudane method first.

I tried your yudane recipe today. It turned out excellent! Thank you!

I came to point out that in the title you mean to say better and not best since there are only two options. But then it was such a captivating video and I learned so much about yudane that I was hooked to the very end. Great side-by-side comparison and explanation!

Your videos are exceptionally informative! Despite all the effort I've spent scouring the internet for decent articles on many baking-related questions I've had, you have affected my knowledge and skills more significantly. You have my gratitude, keep up the great work!

Another great video, thanks! I would love to see one about the effects of adding deactivated yeast when baking bread. :)

Thank you so much Chain Baker 🙏🏻🙏🏻 I'm just about to choose between them for my future breads. 😅

Thank you for Sharing your experiment, blessings Charlie!!!

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers :)

Thank you. I like this kind of experiment because you helped save my time. Keep the good work!

my go to channel for bread... thanks for sharing

I only heard of and tried Tangzhong, but by finding more about Yudane I'm so excited for the next time I make bread. Awesome video :)

Thank you for this video. I’ve been using tangzhong method, I will now definitely use yudane from now on 👍❤️

Thank you so much for making this video to clarify my or maybe a lot of people's confusion between the two, for there are many videos on KZread using the 2 terms interchangeably (very confusing). Also, your demonstrations of putting ingredients side by side for the comparison is GREAT. Visual demos always help.

This is just pure art plus science! I love milk bread and making it from scratch is one my goals this year.

Another wonderful tip! Never made this type of bread before, but I am going to make it tonight. This looks like something my father would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. He has a thing about bread. You do such a great job on these videos. Thank you for the time and effort you put into them.

I tried a double recipe of your yudane and took a beautifully shiny, very flavorful, and very fluffy loaf out of the oven. Out of the three tanghzongs I recently made and this, the yudane is the clear winner. What I noticed, however, is that in comparison to other recipes, you add an extra round of bulk fermentation (90 min). I first thought that was a mistake but was surprised by how well the the bread rose in the pan. That means that in total the dough fermented for about 5 hours at 25C, being deflated twice in the process. That adds a lot of flavor and structure.

Your videos are always so informative! I dared not to make breads with preferments before. After watching your vids, I made ciabatta with biga, hot cross buns with poolish, and more. I guess I'll have to use yudane for my Yemeni honeycomb bread (خلية النحل) next time. My family absolutely love those!

your videos and explanations are brilliant, scientific and logical, breaking down baking science into very understandable instruction and explanations. totally amazing, all of them. i'm slowly working my way thru

Awesome dude!

Thank you for this video. I have been using both of these methods on my bread but am confused as to how different each is to the other. Your video just made everything clearer.

I learn a lot of this video, keep good work ,thank you you for sharing your ideas.God bless

Thank you so much for this comparison. An excellent video. I want to try this method with your brioche recipe

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

You could try it with the little water that there is in the brioche :)

Charlie, I love the format of your videos. The side-by-side comparisons along with great instruction make your channel the best for all bread and baking-related content. Thank you!

@ChainBaker

Жыл бұрын

I'll keep 'em coming 😉

@duncanjames914

Жыл бұрын

@@ChainBaker Great! 😊

Thank you for this video....this saved me from doing the same test ☺️👍😊

So interesting and useful! Many thanks! Liels paldies!

@ChainBaker

Жыл бұрын

🙏

Very useful and pratical！

Thank you so very, very much for the experiment that will save us time from trial and error. I'll try both methods at my home, too. May God bless you!

This was a great teaching video, like so many others that you've done. I'm definitely going to try the yudane. I've never baked bread with either of these, but the yudane seems easier for a beginner. Thank you so much for making CLEAR and understandable content!

Excellent

Thank you for the video! it's nice to see in dept comparison between two method. As a bread nerd, i'm looking forward to your upcoming experiment videos. Cheers! 👍

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

🙏

I have seen a few videos about these, but then I thought "let's see what Charlie has to say about this." And you didn't disappoint! Thanks!

Love your explanation💕 They used to be really confusing to me. Because tangzhong and yudane actually share the same characters (Kanji) in both Mandarin and Japanese. This video really helps to clarify the difference 💕

I have never heard of Yudane, i agree about it being easier, I will try that method next time, TY

I very much appreciate your precision and accuracy. My brain simply cannot work with this level of concrete detail (which is why I majored in Literature 🙃), so being able to rely on you for the directions and explanations is a huge help. Thank you!

Hello! Everything is very accessible and professional. Thank you for sharing with us. 🙏❤️🇺🇦

Your videos are so informative and educational. You do a great job in your testing and explaining the process. I will be a watcher of your channel to further my bread making skills. Keep up the good work. Amazing!!!!!!

@ChainBaker

Жыл бұрын

Cheers! :)

Thanks so much Charlie! Great experiments and explanations for them. I’ve tried the Tangzhong in my sourdough with good results. I’ve not yet tried the Yudane in my bread but I’m going to! Blessings 💕🙏

Thank god for this channel! I’ve been learning so much from you and now I have a better and easier alternative to making tangzhong 🥰

@ChainBaker

2 жыл бұрын

😉

I use the tangzhong, on my milk bread. Good to see a new way to do it. Thank you. I got to try it on my next bread!!!

Thanks for sharing, I just learned tongzhong method and I love the outcome. . i would try yudane and see since this will save time

Yudane is the one I've tried with great results, after watching this video I will stuck to it. Thanks again for the great experiment and explanation.

I am always using tangzhong for my breads, it’s my first time hearing about yudane. Definitely going to try yudane on my bread soon! Thank you for this informational video❤️

Thank you Chain Baker! I have tried the Tangzhong and I really liked the results, but the extra time and work was too much at the time. I did not know about Yudane. I was excited when you preferred Yudane because it saves some time. I wanted to tear it too.

Another great video sir! May I add that usually for covering Tangzhong, I always see it recommended to press the cling wrap directly on it to prevent it from developing a dry crust. Specially if it is stored overnight.

Thank you 🎉 Thank you ❤. I tried your experiment using Yudane & the bread turned out very well. I used the same method with a brioche recipe & made cinnamon & raisin spiral rolls. The result was amazing.

Qué maravilla, gracias! 🙌🏽

Thanks so much for the content. Can I take a wild guess about why the Tangzhong took longer to rise? It may be that the milk has sugars in it and may compete with the yeast for water. Love the amount of work you put on each video, it shows the passion you have for baking.

I had never heard of yudane before. I've been baking and trying to refine my technique for a long time. It sounds like something that would improve dinner rolls, hamburger buns, and sandwich bread significantly. I need to try it.

Oh I always thought they are the same, just in Mandarin or Japanese. Thank you for your effort to explain 👍♥️