Very informative and interesting. My speaker setup is already almost exactly at the 83% rule. A couple of years ago I had spent a lot of time moving the speakers to achieve the best sound. The formula ended up being about 1.20 X the speaker's width measured from tweeter to tweeter, which is nearly the same as 83%. I have seen a few videos where other audiophiles have ended up with similar results. 83% is good advice.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

28 күн бұрын

Thanks for watching, Scott!

I tried it, I like it. 85% rule sounds good with both the Unifi Reference and SVS Ultra (bookshelf). Probably the best I've ever heard them sound. Thanks for the post!

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

23 күн бұрын

Thanks for sharing! People seem to really like those SVS speakers.

Just measured while enjoying this video and exactly 83%! 290cm to position 240cm wide, that was weird. My front spikes are 10mm taller, the soundstage was lifted from a bit too low to perfection. Tilt is so often overlooked. Thanks for the content!

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching and the comment. That's great you had it at 83% already! Please be sure to subscribe. :)

@preservedmoose

Ай бұрын

Or 1.2 times the difference between the ‘speakers. It’s easier to invert it and set the distance to the seat based on 1.2 times the distance between the tweeters.

@paulchasteauneuf2098

Ай бұрын

Funny enough my set is exactly the same distances as yours

My set up was easy, 20 inches from the wall, 7 feet apart, toed in slightly, set my T+A amplifier to free standing, and it sounds fine.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Yup - every room and set up will be different for sure. It's a matter of finding what sounds best for you.

I have the book, but it's nice that you start talking about it again Michael, you forget a lot if you've ever read it in the past, and now that I have new speakers, I'm going to measure everything again. Nice speakers the Tobian's, I've ever listened to them, I remember that they can go really HARD! without distortion.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

So far REALLY impressed with the Tobian's. This weekend is ~300 hours so going to start the formal review. I agree - this is a book worth reading over as it is a wealth of knowledge!

Wow, quite simply, this is a revelation for me. I'm getting a new amp (my last one died) and I can't wait to dig in on this book. Don't know how I stumbled on you channel, but sure glad I did! Thanks much !

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching and I hope you'll subscribe!

@kindface

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures Indeed I have 👍🏽

I spent a few thousand hours of listening tests back in 2000 to 2005 learning about the effects of gear and positioning. I agree that speaker placement is crucial for imaging and sound stage etc. I used some measurements but a lot was also done by eye but mainly ear. My speakers position were closer together to start with but once I changed cables and power supply and some preamp/amp mods, I then had to reposition speakers wider as the sound imaging etc had changed. I used around 1" increments of speaker movement to fine tune my sound. Also I originally used 2" slate hefty slab that my speakers sat on which gave me an amazing detailed and clear sound. But in the end I wanted a warmer sound so experimented with floor speakers direct on wood floor and that became the sound I loved most. In that house back then I used no acoustic treatment ( in a large room) yet my sound system sounded amazing. When it comes to speaker positioning there are certain general acoustics ( theory) guidelines to position speakers in both rooms or studios. However, it depends not just on the shape of the room but also on the construction of the walls, floors, etc, as to how close or distant the theory of acoustics will accord in practise in your particular room. Hence, percentages, distances etc are just guidelines and as you mention it's about experimentation. In my new place the speakers are in what acoustically would be considered the worst possible place, the corners! Yet I've got them sounding so good. But, in this case I have had to use acoustic treatment. Upstairs in another room I have my studio setup where the listening position would be considered the worst possible position, the centre of the room. However from experimenting it's turned out to be the best listening spot particularly relating to the low and lower mid frequencies exist ( standing waves). That's when you throw the rule book out and trust your ears. I think you can trust your ears after spending several hundred hours or more of listening tests because by then there is some objective insight which you can then you can appropriate that to your subjective like/enjoyment. For me fine tuning a system incorporates balance of sound in conjunction with an ' objective' sound quality, tailored to your own subjective taste🤗.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Definitely need to take the time to fine tune placement with your ear. Thanks for sharing!

@zack2147

29 күн бұрын

Couldn‘t agree more. Each room is very different = many different things that influence sound (reflection, absorption, different nodes,…..).

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

29 күн бұрын

@@zack2147 100%. Even if I took my exact system and simply moved into a new room it would sound TOTALLY different and would likely never sound exactly the same from room to room.

@zack2147

28 күн бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures Exactly even if I had all the same components I would need to revisit all the steps in setting up and especially tuning the system to make me get a similar sound in the new surroundings. I chose to mimic someone’s system. Starting with very good components and limited tuning. Then I listen, listen, listen. After time you will hear what to improve and the results of tuning measures. I am struggling in choosing an excellent, very neutral (!) DAC for my very dynamic, highly uncolored system with monitors (without base) and a separate base system. Your suggestions are very welcome 🖖.

Speaker setup is an art and for the greatest bass it's all about distance to reflecting surfaces. A reflecting surface will both add (approx. +6dB for in phase distance and approx. -12dB for out of phase reflection). It's balancing act, and a good rule is to have 1/2 the distance to rear wall compared to the nearest side wall (or vice versa) and then move the speaker on that axis from the corners towards your listening position until you are satisfied with the over all bass quantity. Floor reflection is the worst but can be handled in two ways. Use loudspekers with 2 or more bass drivers that have different distances to the floor. That evens out the dip the floor reflection creates. If you have a single bass driver, put a 45 degree sloping piece of wood to stear the reflection away from the speaker and direct it out in the room towards your listening position. Width about the speakers width + 2 inch. That will help a lot to remove the worst reflection that most often are a -12dB dip in the 100-200 Hz region which prevent the sound to be seamless between bass and midrange. It's very essental to get rid of that dip in frequency response. The floor diffusers talked about in this video do a similar thing, but only to a limited amount. It's all about avoiding that reflective surface the floor creates by directing the sound wave in a different direction than back to the driver.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

He talks about the fallacy of focusing on bass quantity and the issues it brings.

Just so happen to come upon your video. Thank you for it. I’ve been having major pro and can’t get my system to sound right. I have a L shaped room and my head is pretty much right where I have a partial wall. Wreaks havoc with my sound. I’m going to buy the book and I hope it can help my situation. Thanks again.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

27 күн бұрын

Glad I could help and thanks for watching! Just remember to use the book as a staring point and fine tune for what works best for you. But I found the book very helpful.

Lots of great info here. Thanks. I used the Sumiko method for placing my speakers and really got amazing results. However, you have to be prepared for the fact that the speakers won’t be exactly symmetrical in their placement. The Sumiko method really takes into account the room that everything is in.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. I am not familiar with that method but if it takes into account the room acoustics, I bet it will sound great.

@goutomdutta586

25 күн бұрын

can you give a link to this method?

Nice video. Thank you. I wonder if you should have included diagrams - such as the final settings you did for all those positioning. I think, it would do a lot of good.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching and that's a good idea. I am still playing with final position. but will do it once done.

I know that we all here are loving the music and I will share my findings with respect and humility. As is well understood today, the speakers are the least linear and even piece of gear. The room is the second problem and I will think that starting with room treatment before identifying the speakers and listening position locations makes more sense. Another, less understood issue regarding room acoustics is that the room has modes in low frequencies (dictated by the room geometry) and only above these frequencies one has to try to tame phenomena of diffraction, dispersion, reflection, absorption and so on. The lesson for me here is that I found the best sound only after going fully active using one subwoofer (four 18" woofers mounted vertically on a bamboo 1" baffle) and two speakers with an 80 Hz corner frequency. If using a smaller subwoofer, I will put the second one on top of the first one to preserve the cardioid dispersion and avoid comb filtering. Tried once a kind of swarm application, but came back to one subwoofer location, it's simpler and sounds better to my ears. Thank you for your video !

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi Don - thanks for your comment. I would suggest that it's still important to choose the speakers first prior to room treatment as different speakers have different dispersion patterns and will interact with the room differently. Not saying I am right, just my personal thoughts. Thanks again for posting.

@donquixote4630

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures Yes, I see your point and I agree that it is a sensible thought, and perhaps you will check the speakers placement after the room treatment for the ultimate fine-tuning. All the very best and thank you !

Nice video. Great book. I’ve had it for awhile now but with some new speakers I’m setting up I’ll be using these techniques again. Where did you find the test tone you used? Thanks

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. Google GIK pink noise test tone. It's on the GIK web site.

I like those bamboo diffusers below the speakers it's a good idea,its similar to what I have done. I got a felt sheep's wool blanket half an inch folded it four times and placed a bamboo rug on top works really well especially if you've got hard floors it's a must. Yeah definitely put some felt under there diffusers if you've got tiled floor and solid floor makes a difference work much better. you could try some carpet underlay sponge as well, that's what I put my speakers on makes a big difference.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

28 күн бұрын

Good idea!

Good video! When measuring the width of the speaker distance is it inside edge to inside edge, or from tweeter to tweeter? Thanks

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. It's supposed to be from the middle of each tweeter.

Hey I have the VAC PA 100 100 tube amp that I bought back in 1995 and it still going strong!!, Interesting as I started all over the map with my speaker positions and ended up close to the 82% position rule 😅

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

28 күн бұрын

Great amp. That's great the rough % rule worked for you!

I have a DAC review suggestion for you...Reach out to me privately I will organize it. I think you would be great for this product as a reviewer.

This was real interesting. I’m having though of sound diffusion Will this work on dipole speaker like Magnaplanar

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi - it will work with all speaker types with the notation that it will always take fine tuning to your ear. The book covers the different % for different kinds of speakers.

@urbantone

Ай бұрын

Thank’s

Thanks for video! I've got the book and accompanying video, followed his method, great stuff. I didn't lay down a grid with tape though. I have thick carpet which makes it harder. Question: How do you get the speaker spikes in exact position with the carpet sliders under them? You can't see where the spikes would hit the grid with the sliders in the way.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

11 күн бұрын

That's a great question. I would personally slide the speakers on the carpet to find the best position. Them measure them to the 1/16 of an inch. Then carefully add the spikes to try and not move the speakers much and gently rest the speakers on the carpet without pushing them through. Re-measure to get the speakers just right, then push them in. I don't know if that will work, but that's how I'd approach it.

@jeffs8185

10 күн бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures Good to know because that's the way I've done it as well. Using the same carpet sliders. To measure speakers I was holding my laser measure at the center of the chair back which was always frustrating. Then I saw your Easy Measure for Speakers Best Sound video and that was EXTREMELY helpful, a revelation really. I bought the same gun mount you demo in the video, put it on my cheap 20 year old tripod to hold my laser measure, and placed it in the listening position. Makes measuring distance to speakers and then toe in so much easier.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

10 күн бұрын

I'm glad it helped! I kicked myself for nothing thinking of it years ago!

My problem , as i feel it , is that currently when i start to play a little louder (1watt+ on my amp) , certain frequvencys sounds really harsh. Up until 1 watt, it sounds really good ( Yamaha A-S1100) , i'm considering buying new speakers but every speaking i look up, their crossover is really cheap and bad, or the speaker costs $100.000. For me the most important thing is soundstage . I use a pair of 4way floorspeakers with 2x6" woofers in each and if i play 'Massive Attack - Mezzanine', the dinnertable in my kitchen vibrates.. so the base is totally ok for 6" woofers. What i think the problem is, is the crossovers, but sadly where i live, there isn't any "crossover genious" that can do measurements and tailor new crossovers - or i would do it. That being said.. listening to any of my Dire Straits records, or even CDs, give me goosebumps .

@nicholasreeves5025

Ай бұрын

Have you considered some secondhand or even vintage high end speakers?

@zack2147

28 күн бұрын

If you can spend time listening to higher end speakers also test them with your amp. It could be the amp or the speakers you would like to change.

I could not build that diffuser. Looks interesting.

Does the book mention bass floor bounce? It generally better to have the woofer close to the floor to avoid floor bounce. Generally this implies a minimum of a three way design with midrange & tweeter at ear level.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi - the book does talk about taking floor bounce into account.

Stereo reproduction is imperfect inherently - it can't reproduce the same experience as listening to real sources. It does a great job for a simple practical system, but allways keep that in mind the limitations.

How do you find the wellfloat platforms and is there a reason the la scala isnt sitting on one? Thankyou

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi - the La Scala is out of it's place right now so I could access the top to burn in new NOS tubes as I mention in the video. Thanks for watching.

I never followed the golden rule of setting speakers with any of my speakers , even in the living room where everything was, I always listened to the system near field , i use the position of speakers almost like a giant pair of headphones , there are speakers where i like them less toed in and one meter away from me, and there are others where i listen to them almost in line with my couch on the sides , only about 50 cm or so behind that line , is not an exact science by all means , i find that this way i eliminate the most of the problems in a room , and its really like being there , you get immersed in the soundstage, i discover this with one of my first systems , (marantz cd63, marantz amp 44se mk2 and mission 751 speakers ) where i found that if i sat by the system, almost in the middle about only one and a half meter away , i got an impresive soundstage , and the effect from the room was mostly gone .....never looked back , and have being doing this also for almost 40 years, and now with the event of dsp even better , you can run a program to help to eliminate problem spots in the room. best upgrades are mostly common sense use ,...and for free!

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing! I agree experimenting is key to finding what works best for you.

@MsCorbacho

Ай бұрын

In the living room (for example ) i marked the spot where i like to listen to, when nobodys home , i just push the speakers to that spot and listen , when i have to be with other people speakers go back to the sides of the cabinet on the sides of the tv ..and thats it. Easy !

@kjellrogerjgensen60

Ай бұрын

You need to protect those tapemarks from all kind of "helpers hands, and feets". In a livingroom that may be a challenge. Also the marks you should have in the end to find back to the sweetspots. Maybe paintmarks or countersink some nails...☺️

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

@@kjellrogerjgensen60 Good idea! :)

Ya that magic moment when they lock in, and your like no fuckin way!

@n.lyndley.9889

11 күн бұрын

you’re

@firebladeclements

10 күн бұрын

@@n.lyndley.9889 ok gramma r

Just subscribed the channel❤

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thank you!!

i love music, like most here if you're watching this type video, but this is too much for a multi-function room. i would probably go to this length in a dedicated listening room but not a family/living room. besides, i wouldn't have expensive gear anywhere near kids or family members that have no clue the investment we make in this hobby.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Certainly a fair point. Thanks for watching!

Excellent video. A big thank-you for posting. I 100% agree that getting 25 Hz to 300 Hz to a "flat frequency response" is ultra critical because of "room modes" which can act like a "comb filter" for certain low frequencies. Not sure if you've talked about his in other videos but part B of getting to balanced sound is also appreciating that ISO 226:2003 equal loudness curves comes into play at different volume levels. For instance ISO 226:2003 equal loudness curves demonstrate that you need significantly more bass at lower volume levels to get to what people will perceive as equal levels across all frequencies. This is also in play for higher frequencies as well but at a reduced gain. For lower volume listeners, they may find having a bass and tremble control or loudness button can help when listening late at night at lower volume levels. 👍

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

15 күн бұрын

Thanks so much for watching and commenting!

Those are pretty speakers! I hope you enjoy them for a long time. When you review them, can you include a sound sample (classical music please). Thanks, and congratulations!

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thank you!. I'll try but YT usually gives me a strike when I try and add music. Please be sure to subscribe. :)

I have seen tubes in dacs lately, the Audio Note beast for example and the dac you have. Out of interest, what does a tube bring to a dac? thanks.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi - my personal opinion is they add a touch of humanity and life-likeness that digital tends to rob from the sound.

@tothemax324

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures I guess just confused how a tube is implemented in a dac where voltage or buffer is a tubes main function.

@a.c.9495

Ай бұрын

Higher quality tubes (NOS 50/70+ years old tubes old stock) on DACs produce not any less improvement over stock than doing the same on a tube pre and amp. Finding the right mix of tubes among all the tube gears, besides elevating the overall performance by a lot, allows to custom tailor the sound to the listener liking, something impossible with solid state gears. A lot of fun albeit expensive. Michael who does a great job with his channel just needs to take the plunge and buy some serious NOS tube instead of wasting his time with cheap alternative tubes.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks - I didn't realize my Mullards and Bugle Boy's were considered cheap NOS alternatives. ;)

@a.c.9495

Ай бұрын

Oh I thought you imposed yourself to stay below one hundred bucks, I see you raised the bar. I would suggest to try Telefunken ECC81 also. I take the opportunity to thank you for bringing Stealth Audio Cables to my attention. From USB to speaker cables and power (interconnects about to arrive) I find them being excellent and better than what I have. Looking forward to hear your opinion on the Tobian speakers. I got very close to order a set but ultimately for lack of demo ended with TAD CR1-TX and I’m very happy with them. Again congratulations for your valuable videos.

I use damping on floor in front of the speakers. One stupidity with my room I have steps coming from higher level between the seats so can't sit in middle unless sit on steps.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

16 күн бұрын

How does that work for you?

@chuckmaddison2924

15 күн бұрын

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures The damping stops reflections near the speakers great , I also have drapes on a couple of walls and a screen between the speakers. The steps can't do anything with . At the bottom there is a cabinet with 2 projectors and a distribution amplifier. Ceiling is too high for projector as would need a lot of keystone correction.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

15 күн бұрын

@@chuckmaddison2924 Sounds like you've got it set up nicely!

@chuckmaddison2924

15 күн бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures it's not perfect over complicated.

What speakers are there behind in the video

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Tobian 12FH. Available here: www.suncoastaudio.com/collections/tobian-sound-systems-1

This is where I ordered it from: www.getbettersound.com/product-page/get-better-sound-e-book

Listening position is right in the middle of the room? Always heard that is a bad place to sit ..

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Read the book.

Great video...BUT....wouldn't a good room correction device or amp (Lingdorf) do this equally as well if not better? Just asking if you have experiecne with room correction.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

7 күн бұрын

Hi Rick - in just about every instance DSP room correction detracts from high resolutions high end systems. Also it can't affect the sound to off set serious room issues such as standing waves / destructive waves / suck outs due to poor speaker position / listening position. Otherwise you'd see it in use in every room at high end audio shows (none of them use it).

Could not awoid notising the speakers behind you having the tveeter in about same distance from three edges on the baffle. Its against advices, its bad for reducing or spreading difraction, maybe the horntweeter shoots audio waves past the edge...?

@kjellrogerjgensen60

Ай бұрын

No, i meant on the speakercabinet itself. Edge difraction from three sharp edges around the tweeter, both sides and top, with close to, or the same distance to the tweeter membrane. On dome tweeters that vould be a big no no. They often mount the tweeter asymetrical, to awoid same distanses to the edges, or "hide" edges with foam, making a radius etc. You can possibly test it with foam on the baffle around the tweeter. But not shore about horns/acoustic transformers with more directivity in radiation patterns. Just mentioning. 🙂

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hello - thank you for commenting. Yes horn tweeters act very differently in dispersion patterns than dome tweeters.

How do the Tobians 12 FH react on the Puritan PSM 156?

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Hi - not sure I understand the question about how they react? The Tobian's so far a completely silent with no hiss.

@joachimsohnen6049

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures I think that the Tobians 12 FH loose sound and stage and depth… with the Puritan PSM 156

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Interesting. I have not experienced that. What are you running for you PC from the PSM 156 to the wall? I am running a STEALTH PC.

@joachimsohnen6049

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures Soulnote A2, Soulnote D2, Lumin U2, LHY Switch, C1 Melco Cable, Tobian 12 FH😊

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

@@joachimsohnen6049 NICE!!!

I don't see the PDF link.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Here ya go: www.getbettersound.com/product-page/get-better-sound-e-book

Bob Robbins has a KZread video on speaker set up. A lot of tedious work.

no such thing as too much absorption unless your speakers are specifically designed to use side wall reflections. There is such a thing as uneven absorption which is often confused with too much absorption. But it's actually insufficient absorbers.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Could be. In my experience it is very easy to get too much absorption in the mids and highs and then the room sounds dead and lifeless. Not saying I am right - just my personal experience. Except in the case of low frequencies - then I agree with you that you can never have too much bass absorption. Thanks for watching and commenting.

@scottwheeler2679

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures I don't want to hear the room. I want to hear the recording and be transported to that space. The spatial cues of the listening room conflict with the spatial cues on the recording. If we need listening room reverb to get good spectral balance there are other problems in the system that the room reverb is compensating for.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

I certainly respect your opinion and appreciate you posting!

@scottwheeler2679

Ай бұрын

@@MichaelsHiFiAdventures I appreciate your respect and great manners.

Good guide, but I have better advice: buy yourself some decent headphones. If you place the equipment in a general purpose room, you won't be able to listen to music in peace anyway. There will always be children, a dog, a dishwasher, cooking, etc. In this case, spending hundreds of hours setting up the equipment is a bit... waste of time.

@MichaelsHiFiAdventures

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. I've never been able to get into headphones and enjoy them that much.

@JetEarlewood

10 күн бұрын

Hmmmm. So yeah. I live in a very noisy place. That’s Philippines. I decided to get Sundara’s and a good headphone DAC. Was very, no, extremely disappointed. Can’t compare to my Maggie’s even with the noise.