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Turns out Giga cannons aren't just good against the Unbidden. Glad you make these tests

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Yea they are certainly doing well when combined with lasers.

Thanks for the video

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

No problem!

Good videos. I’d love to see even larger tests with all the ship types. Maybe four or five fleets against each other to better replicate late game battles. I’ve been starting to separate out my fleets based on ship/computer type rather than mixing them together and am finding myself having a hard finding the most effective combination. I usually do something along these lines: Fleet 1: Corvette Swarm with PD Fleet 2: Destroyer PD Screen Fleet 3: Frigate/Cruiser Torpedo Fleet 4: Artillery Cruiser/Battleships Fleet 5: Carrier Battleships There are a lot of different possible combinations so I don’t know where to start but this could open up some cool testing ideas.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

It is hard to do more than one vs one fleets, no impossible but very hard without other human players to help out, which then becomes very time consuming for them as well. I normally don't bother with frigates as they die so quickly, prefer Cruisers for torpedo's. Your overall fleets seem fine, you can even drop destroyers and just spam more Corvettes if you wanted to with a mix of PD/Flak designs.

Really surprised that lasers are holding their weight. Great video as always!

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

You and me both! It is a pleasant surprise and opens up more options to build a really strong fleet. Thanks for the comment.

Anything that helps my thirst for min-maxing in Stellaris gets my likes and sub! Keep on going!

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Thanks for the kind comment and sub.

Thanks for the video. You helped me get back into stellaris with my friends. We've made it to 122 years in game and we might actually make it to all crisis.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

That is great to hear. Keep in mind you will need a different weapons loadout and different defenses for each crisis, just google it and they will tell you what is best.

A strong niche for Cloud Lightning battleship fleets are the Cordyceps hive mind fleets. Cordyceps gets an amazing 50% bonus to Space Fauna damage *and* firing rate, so a battleship brawling fleet that uses those and arc emitter destroyers to screen frigates is incredibly effective. I think if you ran that for your test with the full bypass battleships they'd steamroll anything you put up, excepting a frigate bomber fleet of comparable size, or a whirlwind missile kiting cruiser fleet. Seeing how some of these battleship builds survive meta smaller ship comps would be interesting, since confirming the viability of battleship monofleets being a thing again would be groundbreaking.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Oh yes that would be very strong, you just need to get lucky if you are playing that build to also have voids clouds within reach prior to the AI killing them, or you need to find the AI that killed them and hope they put them on ships to get the debris. I am thinking of testing these BB designs against small ships soon, A mix of auto cannons and lasers would be nice, auto cannons should help deal with smaller ships.

@Sepaedius

21 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 having L slot cloud lightning destroyers that screen for the battleship fleet tends to work really well against most comps. If you're testing for it, roughly a third of the fleet as screen destroyers is sufficient against the AI for most fleets. I generally run max shields with at least 1 hardener. Destroyers are artillery and picket stern with 1 of each PD

thanks for the video

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Thanks for the comment.

Good stuff 👏

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Glad you enjoyed

There is a big "but" though - law of big numbers , where Kinetic Arty gets more profits from XXL tech , than Lasers

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

While true, plenty of buffs for energy weapons including from relics. If we try to account for every possible buff in the game the video is going to be very very long. Some you won't get due to random chance and map placement.

Algorithm boost, thank you for actually helping people make good stellaris fleets

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Happy to help!

Been playing a game and got the Null Void Beam weapon and its honestly not bad. 400% against shields mean you can have a few on a select ship or in one-2 slots and it just removes shields. Late game i stopped using them on ships and instead use them on a few star base defense platforms to support other platforms that have all energy weapons.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Null Void beam is great if you get it early on, in the end game not so good but you can dominate with it in the early and mid-game. Yeap great idea to use on platforms.

The best thing about Giga Cannon is how arguably easy they are to pair with other weapons; despite being the weakest of the X-weapons it makes up for its shortcomings with having very little wasted damage. It's similar to the old Cannon-Neutron builds from the old meta. That said, Giga Cannons are likely to really suffer against mixed fleets, where the lasers have the potential to end up targeting smaller ships like Cruisers. It might be worth looking for ways to combine the GC with Tachyon Lance in a way that allows the Lances to fire after the shields have been knocked down. Perhaps putting GC on an Artillery BB and pairing them with the Laser-AC builds from your last few videos?

@johndb1860

23 күн бұрын

Just realised something we can bring back that old combo, the FE ship class has torpedo slots and X slots! Wonder if its good. Needs investigation. The problem wit GC/Lance combos ive seen is the Lance is almost hitscan but GC's bullet takes a bit to travel. But worth a look for sure.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

I think what the Giga Cannon brings is great synergy with lasers, or even plasma, although I prefer lasers for a long-range fight, plasma more for a brawler. With how combat working with shield's taking damage first the Giga Cannon is a natural fit to do a lot of damage early, strip the shields and as I recall they will move target to target to take down shields. This makes lasers more effective as they spend less time burning through shields and more time chewing up that Armour and Hull. Only cloud lightning challenged them but with a few tweaks to make it a more brawler design it won. I would probably combine the two fleets I used or have fleets of each a mix of lasers/giga with giga/lasers/ac or you could opt to put tachyon lance on the brawler fleet to give you better spread of damage for the X slot weapons.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Yes, the FE ships will be a beast in this setup, I plan to test that out soon, maybe tomorrow. I thought the giga was like the neutron launchers, damage is applied almost instantly but the graphics takes time to reach the target if you watch carefully. Not sure on giga though. Will have to watch closely.

@Kingfisher_2376

23 күн бұрын

@@johndb1860 This was mentioned to me in an earlier video, but the visuals are generally not an accurate representation of the Mechanics. Regardless of appearances, all energy and kinetic weapons are hit-scanned; only weapons that can be shot down by P-slot weapons are actually projectiles, specifically to allow for Point weapons to shoot them down.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

That’s right and that’s what I have read and been informed of some time ago now.

I dont know if there was a reason for the carrier-combatcomputer but I suspect the carrierships would do better with an artillierycomputer. As far as I noticed the hangars constantly send more ships as long as they are in a fight and the other weapons dont benefit form the carrier-computer during the fight. If you put on the artillerycomputer those swarmrockets might be able to more effectively outrange the large lasers since then would almost have the same range as a unbuffed X-Slot weapons.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

I have tried both carrier and artillery computers of on different videos over the past week and don’t make much difference. The carriers are always firing missiles that’s not the problem. Strike craft just can’t deal enough damage fast enough, not to battleships too much hull, armour and such to burn through and the lasers just cut them to shreds faster then strike craft can do enough DPS. Carriers are more for dealing with smaller ships, even Artillery Battleships crush carriers and these laser battleships crush Artillery Battleships. The lasers with 80 range will always hit them as only so far carrier me can retreat too. You would think the in space the combat would be more open and allow unlimited space to move around in n with carriers maybe at 300-400 range but we work with what we have.

Is it just me or do you use the same star system for these battles? I swear it's that same red star every time.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Mostly yes, at least for this series of battles. It is the same save other wise I need to redo like 30 ships designs for a series of videos.

@duyas1628

23 күн бұрын

Funny lol.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Every few months I will change systems and have to redo every ship design, doh.

I don't think the Lance ships are flying as their ships are running away.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Artillery computers will do that, as Kinetic Artillery works best at range, of the enemy gets too close the kinetic artillery has a hard time hitting them and yes the TL will be useful as they waste time turning to try and fire and then running away again. Arc of fire can be a real issue at times.

The bigger the gun the more the fun

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Hahaha yea, that's about right. You call that a gun.......now this is a gun (pulls out Giga Cannon).

It looks lie the main issue is that the fleets that are supposed to be "kiting" never actually can get far enough. Maybe range advantage is indispensable vs high strength crisis fleets but is not a real advantage vs normal AI empires or in PVP due to game engine limitations? Could you please test against an all Kinetic Artillery fleet with 2 afterburners, or a carrier + missiles fleet and 3 afterburners, or maybe even an all Large Laser fleet with artillery computers and 2 afterburners?

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

The X slot weapons make it hard to kite but I think there will still be an issue with using kinetic artillery as it is not a 360-fire weapon, so kiting might be hard but will test it out. This is why missiles are really good for kitting as it is a 360-fire weapon, no turning to fire. I will be working on another video today to explore this Giga Cannon/Laser Meta more and see if it can be countered any other way.

If lasers are doing well, does that also mean plasma throwers are good? Or is the stat differential and additional shield penalty too much for them to be worthwhile? In my current campaign, I've felt very much at the mercy of the tech changes from some patches ago. I feel like military techs are few and far between. On one hand it is kind of interesting, because it means you have to try and fit one of a few strong ship designs depending on what techs you're able to draw. But it is also kind of aggravating.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Plasma is also very good, arguably better than lasers in some instances, going to test that in video in the near future. Yes, the 3.6 combat update changed alot of things and also the leader update and getting rid of scientists for each research area as you could influence which techs would appear more often. Now you need to be careful skipping those military techs as you may need them vs the AI much sooner.

What about just laser + kinetics all L slot 4 lazer 2 kinetics

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

I could test that, not sure if it is the same as an XL weapon but only one way to find out.

Thank you for testing the Giga so quickly. Still impressed with the work L lasers put in

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Any time! Yes, it is the ability of lasers to almost fire continuously, so the DPS it is putting out is huge, combined with really good range at 80, high accuracy. Even when I was using the focused arc emitters, or tachyon lance those lasers were just burning through the shields so quickly despite the rebuff. Going to keep testing to see if I can find a real counter to this kind of setup. So far, all the normal strong builds have failed. Without resorting to another ship type using torpedo's, it might be hard.

@johndb1860

23 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 Wow. Just wow. Most impressed when the one side lost 6 ships in the opening salvo but still managed to come out on top. Now im curious if 2 KA or 1 KA and 1 L laser or 2 more L lasers can. Just guetting now but i think 1 KA and 1 L laser will be best. Hope to see good results.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Yea could try a video with no X slots at all and see if it improves the results or reduces them. Lasers just seem so strong, if you are playing PvP even more so due to humans stacking amour heavily. If everyone starts using lasers, then shields are going to make a comeback. Oh, and yes it was very impressive to see 6 Battleships lost in the opening seconds, 1/6th of the fleet, yet they still won, just shows the immense DPS those lasers are dishing out.

Are you sure that both X weapons are firing while one of fleet is running away? That arc of firing should prevent shooting backwards.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

When ships are running away, they will turn and fire, but it is slower due to battleship turn rates. The arc of fire slows the fire rate down, just how the combat system works.

You used Line combat computers instead of Artillery, which is why the Alpha strike of the opposing fleet was always better. Line doesn't really do much more for Lasers since chance to hit = accuracy, and lasers accuracy is already high. If you use Artillery combat computers, the Giga Cannon will alpha strike a lot sooner and the lasers will begin firing sooner. The fire rate bonus is the same. For Ancient Saturator Artillery (Which is ridiculously better for Alpha strike against shields); If you only use artifacts for these and maybe to spruce up your Titans with ruination beams, you should be able to maintain the cost with ease. Also don't forget the Ascension Perk for extra bonuses to your Artifact components. Keep in mind as well that penetrator weapons like Arc Emitter/Cloud Lightings are dice rolls. 1-1000 damage is nowhere near as consistent as 960-2600. Imagine you roll 3 damage on your X slot weapon during your alpha strike? 1 test is never enough to determine efficiency rates in just about anything, but unless someone makes a simulator to run these battles 1000 times over, this will have to do :P

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Good comment. I like the point about using artillery combat computer, can give it a try. The other point about using line computer vs artillery is the opposing fleet will keep trying to retreat as you are within their minimum firing distance that they like. But yes, I get your point. Ancient Saturator's are great and once you get these should always use them for an X slot on ships that are designed to take down shields, the cost is worth it and easily replaceable. Yes, Arc Emitters and Cloud Lightning is somewhat random, but they tend to do very well unless the other side is using a lot of hardening. We had 36 ships firing off 4 x Cloud lightning every tick for reload so over the battle it would be hundreds of shots and they decimated the laser fleet pretty hard in the first fight between the two. I get your point though it is more RNG but I still love them.

So this would also be good build vs AI? Or would that still be the carrier with FAE?

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

This would be very strong against the AI. Better than carriers unless the AI is all small ships but you should always have screening fleets to protect your main fleets.

Will matter disintegrators work as a straight upgrade to the lasers into the endgame?

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Not sure, I would need to test it, but I can't get the tech without actually killing a ship for debris, so it is hard to test. For me it is more like a disrupter or cloud lightning, very power with 70 range for L slot but can be defended against with hardening tech. Fleets of corvettes with them, now that is deadly.

Chad cannon. How would archeotech chad cannon do?

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

I did test it in the last battle. It is clearly the strongest kinetic weapon, and you should use it as a replacement for the Giga Cannon if you have it, as it is an upgrade. It is very powerful.

How would this fleet compare to Torpedo cruisers?

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Anything with Torpedo's will do well against Battleships, the point of these videos is to show the strongest BB designs in damage output. If we add cruisers, I will also add cruisers to defend the Battleships from them to make it a fair test. I will do more mixed fleet testing with some Torpedo cruisers in the near future as well.

Tach KA loosing is an odd result they win almost all the time even more if you use AFC +10 hit chance is better than a tier 3 shield, kinetic is bad with 75%. It would win even more with Line too but it is very risky if ennemy has torp cruisers.

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Kinetic is a strong build but I think it got that reputation as it is what most off has used for along time. Giga Cannon and lasers is not a common combo even though they both work together great. What makes those fights even better is the Kinetic fleet had advantages as it had the shield capacitors while the Laser fleet had armour and shield hardening which added nothing to that particular matchup. Probably Better to add in some plus targeting or chance to hit to help the Giga Cannon, so the A slots did not help in the laser fleet on that fight while they did for the Kinetic fleet. Not sure how to improve the Kinetic fleet to see if it could win. Only way would maybe be to stack 100% shields but then it is not realistic and then all you need to do is add 1 kinetic battery to the Laser fleet to counter that. Seems lasers are just better and it has been for a number of fights now in 3 different videos. I was surprised how strong lasers did in my previous videos, hence why I did this one. Open to suggestions.

@MasterElements

23 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 I think the reason the Lasers seem so strong is less the lasers and more the combat computer, because the ships are constantly retreating the weapons with a firing arc don't get to fire anywhere near as often as they would if both fleets stood at range and fired at each other. I would be interested to see if the GC+L BB did as well with an Artillery combat computer vs other Artillery combat computer fleets. I think having different combat computer roles in this instance might be a flaw in the experiment methodology or should be included in future data at the very least.

@ZephBB

22 күн бұрын

​@tachyonlance1969 Well it is just a reputation based on facts... Almost nothing changed since 3.6.The biggest change is indirect with tech rework that makes cruisers even more predominant. Artillery is at disadvantage there is no screen here but will still win, one battle that doesn't show the most probable result shouldn't be used to draw conclusions. You don't even need to improve anything just do it multiple times and see how many times you can reproduce that "miracle." You might have lucky shots of giga. It has the same wide range than arc but with higher values. Line is stronger than artillery in those match-up, and adding a tier 3 shield (capacitor) is negligible compared to the computer especially vs giga that already overkill shields. So in reality the advantage is given to laser fleet. Not that it really matters, they are still weaker. AFC would only increase base dmg by 2.5% you are already at 110% with laser and 95% giga. With similar computers your chances of winning are even lower.

@ZephBB

22 күн бұрын

​​@@tachyonlance1969Until they rework NL properly nothing new under the the sun for artillery. They wanted to make NL targetable like torpedos so I guess they nerfed it to oblivion until it can be intercepted.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Well, you might be right, got another video coming out soon based on more testing using Line combat computers which helps to change the battle.

Balls

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Thanks.

I want to test stuff too. So, what setup are you using? Do you use any mods that help with it? Any commands in the console that I should be aware of? Any what civic, traits, ascention /-perks are you using?

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

No mods. Console commands. "researchalltechnologies" "instant_build" "rr" for max resources, "attackallfleets" to get fleets to attack each other. "researchalltechnologies 11" gives rare techs. To get crisis techs or ascension techs you will have to actually do these, there are more console commands to speed that up as well but don't recall right now, you can look them up easy enough.

@Spacoy

23 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 thanks a lot^^

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

@@Spacoy No problem.

why not plasma instead of lasers?

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

Plasma is likely very effective and I have tested them in recent weeks with good results. I will probably test them again with Giga Cannons in the coming days as I do love to Plasma. So don’t worry it will be tested soon. Maybe plasma vs laser battle with everything else the same and see who wins.

:)

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Thanks.

Thanks for the video

@tachyonlance1969

23 күн бұрын

No problem!