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Note that for the line laser BBs, the Enigmatic Decoders are also useless for the lasers. Chance to hit is already pegged at 100% because of the line computer, and BB evasion is countered by high-tech sensors. I think the takeaway from this testing is that range is a wasted stat unless you have a significant maneuverability advantage, while accuracy massively boosts effective DPS. One final thing, if you do the math, you'll note that the average DPS on the weapon stat card *includes* the accuracy calculation.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Good points. The damage of the Tachyon Lance also went up greatly, it was doing a lot more damage.

@robguy8501

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 I think that increase came mostly from the ships being pointed at enemies more often and being able to fire their tachyon lances on cooldown. 5% hit chance shouldn't make a huge difference unless your get some really bad RNG with the 95% hit rate lances.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes that certainly played a key roll on being able to fire its weapons more often.

Love the analysis of the different builds!

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Thanks for the kind comment.

Keep the content coming. Thank you, very helpful

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Thanks, will do!

I think part of why TL + KA lost with artillery but won with line computer is kiting behaviour and not just extra KA hit chance. X slot weapons have a firing arc, so when the shorter range laser fleet tries to close the distance, TL + KA fleet starts to kite and can't shoot TL properly. With line computer it just sits there and fires away, so artillery computer seems to be only good with X weapons if you have enough of an advantage to melt the enemy from high range, if the enemy is tough enough to reach you line is better. Alternatively you'd need to use some screening ships to allow lance fleet to stay at range. Artillery computer seems best with 360 arc weapons like missiles.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes that certainly played a role and it could just be that the TL and KA fired more as they were not trying to flee all the time. So I guess we can’t use artillery combat computers with artillery anymore, PDX need to buff artillery combat computers so they can work as intended.

Well the effectiveness of the raw DPS of the TL+ KA line battleships was a nice surprise! Looking forward to additional testing against other builds, please don't forget to check if the TL+ KA line battleships beat full penetration weapon battleship builds too. It looks like this confirms that the artillery computer behaviour is not good enough in its current version, it's only useful to alpha strike a low tech AI (so you don't take any loses at all) or a high difficulty crisis that otherwise one shots all your ships no matter what. Also, by raw DPS and resilience those ships look like they could take on almost anything, except high evasion corvettes (almost no tracking at all) or devastator torpedo cruisers - which hopefully still out-DPS them by a good margin, could be a nice sanity check to test this and see that Paradox didn't screw up the torpedo changes too.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes, you are right, the DPS was insane, I thought Lasers and Giga was insane, then this was a surprise. What actually surprised me the most was the damage increase to TL, it was massive. That +20 kept it at the top of the damage every battle and KA was second most of the time. I will be testing this against more builds in the coming days or week. It would be interesting to see how much damage this fleet could do to a torpedo cruiser fleet prior to it getting into range to unleash its firepower. Torps should still win, but you never know.

Thanks for the mention Tachyon, the science was interesting, I may do a few more experiments.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Any time! Surprising that line computer makes so much difference but when you factor in the play +20 chance to hit, it made a huge different to the damage done by the Tachyon Lance, its damage was off the scale. We have been underestimating just how good chance to hit is, even the early game +5 chance to hit would be good for the early/mid game.

Have you looked more into early to mid game builds? I find those harder to design since tech is shifting constantly, and the economy isn't vastly superior to AI. I usually missile or disruptor spam, but it doesn't feel efficent. Not to mention early wars having much higher impact.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Disrupters and Missiles are good and powerful builds. You could also look at early kinetic and either laser/plasma builds as well. Don't forget the good tech from some of the space fauna you can find around as well, mining lasers null void beam and so on. Can be very powerful in the early to mid-game.

@Nomadic_Gaming

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969null is an event on a planet you are thinking the frequency tuning from tiyanki which w mining laser is great for a while as you damage dealers corvettes w high evade and tuning base plasma and a mining laser does solid to eat up ships early game

@johndb1860

22 күн бұрын

Missile/disruptor spam in early to midgame is usually way to go. Preferably missile because disruptors can make ships surrender more. Good rule for ships I use is missile corvettes, then swarm/missile destroyers, then swarm/missile cruisers to bully everything smaller until battleships. Works great on AI

@LordBruuh

22 күн бұрын

Carrier cruisers are easy win for mid game. I usually get them by 2050.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

@@LordBruuh Yea I love carrier cruisers, very effective.

I normally have mixed fleets with about 20-40 fleet size in corvettes and frigates. Also a mix of brawler (auto cannons & plasma) in the front with some ranged artillery and carrier in the back. Frigates are targeted more than anything else for some reason so using them as fodder saves my more expensive ships. 😊

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

That is a good way to use Frigates, might be the only useful use of Frigates actually, damage tanks to protect your other ships. I like it a lot.

Interesting. Accuracy really matters. Another thing with the Lance-KA ships is the cooldown for Lance is longer than KA so the anti-shield KA will get a second shot first and more frequent subsequent shots than Lance. This leaves armor and hull vulnerable to the Lance's second shot. And for preference, KA will shoot at anything with shield over non-shielded until everything is non-shielded. A more efficient behaviour combined with the Lance.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes it certainly is, chance to hit is very strong. Nice points. Thanks for the comment.

@SteveBlewett

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 I find these videos very interesting. More note: to hit caps at 100, Montu testing proved that (unless changed since then). When mousing over the damage values; hull, armor, shield, the fourth one is accuracy showing hit rates of weapons.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Yes, that is right, accuracy is included in the combat calculations. Thanks for the kind comment.

hey man, idk why your videos are relaxing af but I would like a tier list from you if possible. thanks.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

A Tier list on weapons or ship designs, a ship design on which is the best in the game is probably a good idea.

also you need smaller ships because sizes equal to battleships and bigger attempt to avoid corvettes or so

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

I will be doing some mixed fights in the near future with various ship classes to see how these weapons compare in fleets but first I want to test Plasma out some more.

I think I found the Meta fleet compostion, it's a great all rounder that beats every single fleet comp I tried including those from your recent videos. Try it and give me your opinion. The composition accounted in naval capacity percent of the total fleet is: 60% Battleships with focused arc emitter, double hangar as middle slot and the rest filled with disruptors, auxilliaries are 3 armor hardeners. 1 shield slot and 5 armor slots, line computer (not for the bonuses but because you want them to get close, tank the damage and use the disruptors). 25% Torpedo cruisers filled with 3 devastator torpedoes and disruptors, torpedo computer, two afterburners, one reactive armor. Only armor slots except for a single shield. 15% frigates with disruptor, swarm computer, full armor. Including these is enough to win the fight against a full bomber frigate fleet. Only difference from your setup is that I use Dark matter reactors, the rest is pretty much the same aside from the fact I use 160 capacity fleets, I don't know if the numbers make a difference. I also tried against all other meta fleets I could think of and it wins against everything, Artillery BS, Brawl BS with mixed plasma and autocannons, Energy BS, Torpedo cruisers, full Corvettes, full frigates. Mine won and even when I equipped these other fleets with full armor and 3 armor hardeners, which should be my weakness. The cruisers annihilate every BS brawling fleet, the Battleships annihilate the kity BS that need to use afterburners instead of hardeners, if they use hardeners instead of afterburners they get caught by the cruisers, the Strike crafts annihilate the torpedoes from other cruisers, the corvettes shield the fleet from frig spam (frigates seem to focus them a lot instead of annihilating the Battleships). I've only found one counter but it's a very gimmicky counter. A fleet full of battleships with arc emittor, dual hangar with missiles, carrier computer, single afterburner, dual hardener, will kite my fleet indefinitely and will beat it. The carrier computer is necessary as it gives them a lot more range. But such a fleet, even armor fitted, gets completely wrecked by a regular Kinetic artillery BS fleet though, that's why I call it gimmicky.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Thanks I will take a look tomorrow, off to bed now. Will let you know the results when I get time for more testing. Thanks for sharing your tests.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Mixed fleet tend to always do good against mono fleets. Having cruisers with torps would nearly always win as they do 8 x the damage with those torps. To be fair you should also add screening ships to the other battleship fleet and see how you go. But yes if some one is using a mono battleship fleet against you, use mixed fleets to crush them.

@seronys6601

21 күн бұрын

Decent design but I think Saturator + Large Lasers, Artillery Computer, Only Armor defensives with Auxillary Computer beats this. Try it yourself, I did a similar test and it came close.

@Fr0ufrou

21 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 In my experience it's not always true. Most kiting BS fleets usually destroy any kind of mixed fleets. I've tried it with a bunch of mixed fleets as well and haven't found a counter yet.

@Fr0ufrou

21 күн бұрын

@@seronys6601 arti or line computer? only 2 auxilliary slots with auxilliary computers? I'll try it but I have trouble believing a fleet could win without hardeners.

ok, i did a quick test because something didn't make sense. I tested a fleet of BB(arty) with the XL(tachion)L(arty)(3 armor, 3 shield)A(auxiliary fire control) vs the BB(line) XL(gigacann)L(lasers)(3 armor, 3 shield)A(hardening of shield\armor) ... and the BB with arty won , alot... the difference ? the number of ship and the non-AI computer ( i used the advanced one) there are ALOT of variables that can alter the result of battle, even just military ethics can change the result .. meanwhile i finaly found out why carrier ship computer made the titan a mindless charge moster , if you don't have H slots it will simply charge at the enemy... the fun part is that the artilery BB with carrier computer ALMOST won that :D

@unknow11712

22 күн бұрын

welp, now i've created the swarm BB , with carrier computer, 3 advanced afterburner. they chaaaaseee

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Very interesting points and great comment. Thanks for the comment.

Another good vid and another surprise. Didnt think KA would be that effective in a brawl. Not surprised at the all L laser result tbh.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes, was a Suprise, who would have thought Kinetic Artillery would do worse with Artillery combat computer and work so much better with line, which tells me it is not really working well, or not balanced enough. Artillery should be the go-to for Kinetic Artillery.

@johndb1860

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 I think i solved why. Its the combat computer. Both give 20% rate of fire but line gives 20 to chance to hit while Art gives 20% range. Assuming chance to hit is accuracy, the KA has a base of 75% accuracy + 20 from computer + 10 for 2 decoders. So arty computers hit first but have a 1 in 4 base chance of missing while the Line has perfect accuracy. Explains why they hit so hard. And why the Lance is even better with line. I usually use Lance/4 KA with Arty computers when going up against other AI battleships. Now will be using line computers. Congradulations I think you may have come up with some real anti-meta battleships. Never thought it was Artellery ships in brawling tho lol!

@sirgaz8699

22 күн бұрын

It's got really good DPS but poor accuracy, 75% so it's losing 1/4 of its damage are misses. So pairing it with an AI line computer takes it to 95%. I'm sure if the line combat computer said +27% total damage everyone would use it.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes was a real a surprise to see KA and TL to do so well with line computer. You are right the chance to hit is more powerful than a lot of us thought. Even the +5 from the early game would really help in the early/mid game.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Spot on, not only the KA but the TL did so much more damage as well. Very impressed with line computers, disappointed with artillery it needs a buff.

Ancient Saturator Artillery is just worse than Giga Cannon unless going up against unarmored ships. It suffers the same modifier issue as autocannons, doing only 25% damage to armor. Autocannons at least partially make up for it by having 2 or 3 times the raw damage of comparable weapons, whereas the Saturator has about the same DPS as other T2 X-slot.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes I was somewhat disappointed in how it worked out. I might test plasma and bypass weapons against the KA design and see if I can counter it.

While the Line computers seem to be winning these, I assume that you would still use Artillery computers with screening ships involved. Would be interesting to see how the Tachyon ships with Line and Decoder do against the cloud lightning design you have shown off before. Would it be strong enough to win without hardening? One side note is that the archeotech GC is worse in the autocannon builds, as you completely overkill the shield damage, while lacking anti-armor. And while branching off a little too much in a single post, have you tried replacing the lasers with plasma? I would be interested to see how the results change, though in a battleship vs battleship situation plasma would probably win. Lasers have the accuracy advantage against smaller ships mostly.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Plasma would be my next try to see if that works best with line computer as well. It is the +20 chance to hit, and it was really the Tachyon Lance doing 3/4 of the work, it was devastating. Yes, I would still use artillery computers as part of a larger fleet with other ships to protect it, seems odd though that KA performs worse with artillery computer compared to line, some rebalance needed I think.

@aapee565

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 One thing that came to mind is that due to battleships having almost no evasion, the normal tech +5 chance to hit A slot is identical to the decoders. You could use those if you don't want to use limited tech. Would also be interesting to see the KA+NL cruisers have a try against these battleships. Would the torpedoes get the win, or are X slots too good.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

@@aapee565 yea I did think about using the + 5 and you get that so early. Plenty more testing to come.

the only way i see to balance this is by limiting the behaviors bonuses to weapon sizes . line could affect only M slots, arty only L slots , and a new behavior should be added for the XL weapon, to keep that face on enemy >P

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

That is a very good and simple solution, I like it a lot.

I'd be interested in seeing Line Giga-Plasma vs Line Tackyon-Kinetic Artillery. It's funny that the Giga is just a big KA and a Tackyon is a big Plasma. The Giga-Plasma, my go to since I started, does things the right was around, breaks the shields then strips the armour but the Tackyon-KA has better modifiers and range even though the first volley the Tackyon hits the shields and the KA hits the armour.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes, that is likely going to be one of my next videos that I try out, plasma is very good even more so as most humans stack more armor or you are forced to due to power restrictions if you don't have high enough power core yet.

@ScorpioneOrzion

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 when someone goes all plasma + more shield and seems to win every battle

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Well I will put plasma to the test again soon, even try a heavy shield version just for you.

Im new to stellaris, and wanted to know how your spawning these fleets. I'd like to try out some stuff on my own. Can you spawn crisis ships and ascended factions too?

I’m actually quite curious of the breakpoint when bypass losses effectiveness without component tailoring. For example if you got 3 genius armorers on council would that prevent bypass brawling from being effective as the damage is reduced by the Harding on shields and then again on armor. Not to mention other bonuses like astral shielding or psionic. Additionally the extra stats would beef up the amount you need to chew through before going straight to the hull. Also when thinking about it is there a break point where you want to let some through the shield and catch the rest on the armor so both the shield will naturally regenerate and put some components for armor regen to make a more effective brawler.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

That is a very good question and to answer it you would need many tests, also the variability of bypass weapons with damage out can fluctuate so much and is completely random, some battles it might do very well but then lose the next 10 due RNG. 3 x Genius Armorers though is going to be very powerful and make using bypass weapons against you nearly pointless.

@thedismayer1196

20 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 True I understand how variance is a factor but typically by going for the law of large numbers I would just take the middle damage and apply is that way and calculate it as an average as there are swings and roundabouts for most weapons except the few weapons that statically almost never miss and even then they have a variance in damage.

@tachyonlance1969

20 күн бұрын

Well on my latest video, Plasma is King you will see the first battle is focused arc emitter and cloud lighting vs the strong TL and KA build of this video, and the cloud lighting fleet won easily. I then add just one armour hardening and one shield hardening and that completely reverses the battle outcome. Could even use the 15% hardening and that is likely enough as well. That showed how little changes can really make a big difference.

It's hard to tell but seems like the ships are losing a lot of time turning around with artillery computers. Line computer fixes this. I'll have to try this next game.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Yes that is right. Artillery ships work better not using artillery combat computer, who knew.

Next video: Most Meta Meta Build

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Hard to beat the last 2, pretty powerful builds. Actually, very surprised a change to Line combat computer made such a huge difference.

Previous comment got deleted I guess: Had to do some tests of my own: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oaSexbuhZcrMe6w.html When adjusting each design for maximized defense against the opposition, and using artillery computers for Lasers, Lasers won, even against Line computers for KA. Same deal against Arc Emitters. Interestingly, when using the Arc Emitter defenses against KA - Artillery, Lasers still won, but lost against KA - Line. I did some testing later and when both builds are adjusted for Arc Emitters, lasers win. Plasma also beats Lasers (without defense optimization) but loses with defense optimization, but KA Line beats Plasma. Too me it seems like Lasers are the most versatile; when you maximize defenses for the opposition, they win everytime. Edit: Even more testing (look what you got me doing now) Torpedo cruisers, absolutely decimated both; but Laser BShips beat out Vette/Destroyer swarms equipped with full Shields/Stormfire Autocannons. Upon further examination I am now convinced most Battleships are useless. Torpedo Cruisers outclass almost all battleships designs and only seem to lose to Corvette swarms and Arc Emitter Carriers.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Nice testing. What do you mean maximized defense? Is that going full shields when the enemy is full lasers as an example? Or full armor if the enemy is full KA? Torpedo Cruisers are very powerful but to win they need to get very close; I always use screening ships in my real games and would have a fleet of corvettes with 1 x PD or Flak and 2 x disrupters. This would be 250 corvettes to screen the capital ship fleet. The multiplicative damage is just too much from torpedo's for Battleships to effectively fight them. The only real option is to kite them, Carrier Battleships loaded out with whirl wind missies and V missiles, plus strike craft, don't put an X slot as that stops the kitting, just put another hanger bay and more missiles. 3 x afterburners. Torpedo cruisers are very powerful but anything that kites them well will generally kill them quick enough, the cruisers just fly around in the middle unable to hit anyone and keep bouncing from target to target. But you need to know the enemy has these cruisers to prepare for it, so intel is key or know your enemy.

@seronys6601

21 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 Thats exactly what I mean for maximized defense. The video showcases it. And yes, the only thing that beat torpedo cruisers was Arc Emitters carriers. If you stack 3 afterburners on the cruisers they can catch most Bships, but carriers are the best at kiting. A mix of Torpedo Cruisers and Carriers seems to be a fleet of outright carriers though.

@tachyonlance1969

20 күн бұрын

Yea carriers are great for kiting. Focused arc emitter is great and use missiles for long range strikes as those are great for kiting as well. Torpedo cruisers are also one of the strongest ships on the game vs other capital ships and also very versatile. I will give your comments more study and testing over the next few days as I get more time.

I wonder if the ancient saturator line with a couple of artillery computers would do better

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

I did try the ancient saturator X slot and it made no difference, is that what you mean.

@caiooliveira4964

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 I mean half Artillery computers with ancient saturator (or any other x weapon) half line computers with x slots I wonder if the best artillery would be strike craft, (L) lasers or kinetic

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Ok thanks, I will see how it turns out in some testing. Strike craft are great against smaller ships, KA battleships destroy carriers easily though.

@caiooliveira4964

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 Ohhh, true... In that case, I wonder what would be best to counter screening ships. Is it strike craft, smaller picket ships, other screening ships or an anti screen cruiser. Maybe an Idea for the future

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

@@caiooliveira4964 strike craft are good against screening ships. But corvettes with disrupters are great for clearing screening ships, to counter corvettes with disrupters use destroyers with missiles using artillery combat computer. Cruisers with all disrupters are also great against small ships as well.

Are these meant vs AI or vs Players? Because maybe i am completely off. But the way the game works is that tech is exponentially, meaning once you have battleships and max weapon techs repeatables are right on the horizon in big numbers. And once you factor in repeatables. Isnt all eggs in 1 basket always better? Id rather have all kinetic boosted by 200% than a mix boosted by 100% each. No?

@horphalamph6579

22 күн бұрын

Three different trees, strike craft repeatabls are in society, kinetic and explosive weapons are in engineering, and lasers are in physics. Picking two is best: strike craft + missiles just ignore shields, and kinetic + energy deal with shields + armour with hit scan. Strike craft is useful for dealing with mass screen ships too You could get +100% damage equally fast on three different damage types

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

Most players probably don't even play that far into the game, once you have that many repeatable the game is generally over unless you are fighting all 4 crises on 25 x crisis level. But yes, it is better to focus on one if your goal is just to get the best out of repeatable, but you often cannot do that till late in the game or if you do you are restricting yourself to much better weapon choices throughout the game. Plus, it is boring to play just using 1 weapon all the time, you need to spice things up.

@nikolaushaffner7880

22 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 thanks also @horphalamph6579 fpr your answers. Good, i just figured its this weird spot where you apparently have all weapons but not yet repeatables. Maybe its how i play but normale you explode at one point and things go so fast with tech. I normaly go kinetoc and shields since with the archeo shield you can easily get 100% shield hardening which is better than armor even though energy tends to be the better weapon.

@tachyonlance1969

22 күн бұрын

For testing purposes you cannot research the repeatable techs easily using console commands, you would need to manually enter every tech, find out it's ID for each tech and so on. I test builds for Early/Mid and End Game but not too the point of repeatable, as depending on your build this is very niche. Plus, you likely have a good idea of what you are doing and the build you want.

Sugoku nakadashi ippai

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Thanks.

Why not just slap regenerative hull tissues on? They're RIDICULOUSLY overpowered.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

They are good but I very much doubt it would overcome the huge damage output of the artillery and tachyon lance but worth a try for a test.

@khatack

21 күн бұрын

@@tachyonlance1969 if the ship comes under fire and survives more than 1 day then a single regenerative hull tissue is already worth 5% hull points and 15% extra armor. Battleships usually last way more than that; your example battles I think lasted around half a month at least. The days when the regeneration was 2% hull per month are long gone. If you get access to the nanite repair bots and slap three of those babies on a battleship, the ships will become pretty damn resilient, regenerating almost half their hull points in a single day and more than half of their armor on top of that.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

Ok you have convinced me, I will give it some serious testing in my next video and test examples with hull regen and without and see if it makes a big difference to the outcome.

@khatack

21 күн бұрын

​@@tachyonlance1969 Bear in mind that regeneration grows more powerful the more you have it. Three regenerative hull tissues are a lot more than three times better than a single tissue. Theoretically you can have ships that are effectively indestructible if your regen is high enough. With three tissues a battleship with 3600 hull points and 5k armor is going to regenerate 540 hull points and 2250 armor points daily. I don't think any of your battleship designs has enough damage output to deal with that sort of regeneration alone. Obviously that's not counting bypass weaponry, bonus hull and armor damage and it doesn't take into account concentrated fire, but the numbers are ridiculously big.

@tachyonlance1969

21 күн бұрын

@@khatack I always thought that when in combat this regen was at 1/10th the speed it is out of combat. I guess I need to test it.