Never quite understood vents and geysers until I saw your series. Its nice to know how to tap into these renewable resources

If you heat the water from your cool steam vent instead of cooling it, you can tame it using steam turbines and ultimately consume less energy. Also, cooling the water may be useful but it's not always necessary. Most uses for water can handle hot water just fine. It's also possible to trick steam turbines into sucking 110C steam by keeping one of the inlets in a separate room with hot enough steam in it. If the hot room has very low pressure, you really don't need to give it a lot of heat, I even managed to create a stable system by giving 0.5g/s of water in a 2X3 room with a steel transformer in it, with two steam turbines on top. It's a pain in the butt to setup, but then you get a system that consumes virtually no power to tame a steam turbine.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I like it, nice ideas.

@Rig0r_M0rtis

11 ай бұрын

The heating option was done by Tony Advanced in his tamer video if anyone is interested. It's very energy efficient for early game and you get a small stream of cool water you can bring into your base.

@al8-.W

8 ай бұрын

In my current run I've been using the water from cool steam vents for oil extraction. Now that I'm all set with 10+ petroleum tanks and that my vent is dormant, I'm ready to kick start a proper vent farm. Whatever you do what you don't want is a stram vent that accumulates too much water because you lack the energy to feed it all to the steam turbine.

@Delt4_Cr4wfish

5 ай бұрын

Honestly, im disappointed with many of the creations from this community. I have 2 cool steam venits in my aluminum valcano chamber. I then also pump my salt water and brine into that same chamber. Then i also have a hot steam vent that i pump the water into another cool steam vent chamber. Conected to a minor valcano.

HE USED AN INFITINE STORAGE OMG !!!1!11!!11!

@queenkalero

Жыл бұрын

Breathe Witt.

Where was this yesterday when I needed it . Guess I'll just have to try it again now that I know more about it. Keep up all the good work Echs

@RazTheOtter

Жыл бұрын

I was gona say this seems conveniently timed with your taming attempt xD funny how that works isn't it?

@queenkalero

Жыл бұрын

@@RazTheOtter I'm sure that was just happenstance

+ points for actually adapting your designs in such a way that it's easier to look at

10:44 You can block some of the turbines' inputs. That would increase the amount of time you have power out of the steam, spread out the gas pressure more evenly and decrease steam engine overheat...

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Great tip.

@Rig0r_M0rtis

11 ай бұрын

Also decreases the amount of power generated by the steam turbine tho.

Putting a little bit of liquid on the bottom tile of a Steam Turbine is a great way to keep it cool and help the cooling be conducted to it.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I try to do this on some of the harder working turbines in my let's plays. Good tip.

I had a leaky oil fissure spawned right next to the starting biome. I did have the wherewithal to keep it un-dug for 1500 cycles while I was learning my ways (first play ever). Later it turned out that those fissures don't get over-pressurized, so it would have just kept leaking and breaking my walls with that sweet sweet 270°C oil.

@djmagichat1721

2 ай бұрын

Oh snap, I didn't know they can't overpressure. That's good to know. My current playthrough (and first in a good while) generated with two leaky oil fissures close to spawn. The closer one erupts oil at 326 degrees C. I'm glad I left those buried while I set up tamers for them...

The danger of that heat is why insulated tiles and boxing in exposed vents/geysers ASAP is so high on my colony priority/research list. I've learned that lesson the hard way. RIP. Very helpful info, Echo. Good stuff! Hope you and yours are having a good week. Best of wishes.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Ms. Sha Sha.

with the uncovered steam vent POIs, you might get lucky and have sand generate in the tiles above. in that case, you can do some strategic digging to drop the sand on top of the vent's active tile, quickly overpressurizing it. submerging the vent under an entire lake works, too. (but most of the time i just end up rushing to seal it off with constructed tiles and scald half my colony.)

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Good tip.

@AKUJIVALDO

Жыл бұрын

Height of 2 tiles of water is more than enough. 2nd tile of water - >150Kg. 1st tile of water - 1000Kg. Multiply by width. No geysers/vents will work under that much water/oil/petroleum/ect. Also, stop digging blindly LOL

Awesome vid. These vents scared me so much when I spawned next to one that I made insulating my entire base my first priority and 100 cycles later I cornered myself into my own base surrounded by 100c temps with no way to access atmo suits.

if you don't have access to plastic, you can control temperature in the vent area with liquid pipe looping. have a radiant pipe in the vent room, taking hot water out into large unused areas. obviously, this won't last forever, but it will be more value, then boxing them up.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I like it.

You can also add water to the 500°C steam to bring it down to 200° to be more efficient. I'm actually adding hot salt water from a geyser on my map to tame the steam geyser and desalinate the salt water at the same time. Might work with polluted water too if you keep the pressure hight enough to prevent off-gassing.

@davidliao6295

7 ай бұрын

how might you be adding the water? are you dumping it right in?

@Rig0r_M0rtis

7 ай бұрын

@@davidliao6295 Yeah with a liquid vent. You need to put temp. shift plates inside to cool down the steam quickly. The valve it is outside tho, so the water doesn't stay in the pipe during dormant stage. It'll heat up and burst it even when made of insulated pipe. You need to put temp shift plates inside to cool down the steam quickly.

I know you have started a new beginners tutorial, but a lot of this is still relevant (and very valuable) thank you. A couple of points. 1. Heat still gets through the top tile of your top tile in your cool steam vent tamer. This can be fixed most easily by just adding a 2nd layer of insulated tile. Perhaps also by building the vent 'room' 1 tile higher, but I haven't tried it. 2. The steam turbine is locked behind Applied Science Research. I wish I knew this before I attempted the build!

If you’re willing to build big and dumb you can take the water from your colder geysers and send them over a cold block at the top of your cold steam geyser. Yea the cooling to water is more then the heating to steam turbine fuel but your not spending power to do so. This dose have limits, but easy to over come. The hot water(97C) is great for oil and SPOM. And even slight warm water(over 30C) isn’t much of a problem for most none oil/SPOM uses, and for very sub zero water it helps avoid pipe bursting when purifying it.

This game is so addicting. I just wish pressure levels affected sublimation temperatures in this game. It would allow different means of cooling ( like a rankine cycle of some sort).

About the cool steam vent: place a steam turbine ober the vent and run the exhaust of the turbine through 4-6 aquatuners that sit in the room with the vent. You'll get 5°C-35°C (depending on the number of aquatuners) warm water out of it while the heat you extract is used to bring the steam over 125°C and enable the turbine. You can even snake the 5°C water behind the turbine to cool that down.

minor correction needed, cool steam vents wear sunglasses.

Vents are the bane of my existence in ONI seem easy till you start to mess with it

This was very helpful. The game is very overwhelming.

Thank you so much for making a modern video everything has been a bit dated till I saw this thank you

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed :)

Bought this game like a month ago and became addicted to it, I thought I had it pretty much figured out until i found this channel 😅, my colony is like in the stone ages compared to what i see on here.

@kennethjudecarrera5955

Жыл бұрын

At 500 hours I'm still learning so many things!!

Though I find these videos very helpful, everyone is always using the Sandbox side to build them. I don't think I've seen a single person showing how to get to these builds through natural progression.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I have a few cool steam vents done in my normal let's play. For my recent series though, I just haven't seen a standard steam vent, or I would do exactly that.

I just really enjoy your voice and how you say things. I've been remembering for days about you talking about thermal aquatuners. I'm also using this design in my base! Although it would be really useful if you also went into detail of the aquatuner setup as well since it's all quite closely cramped in there and hard to see what's connected to what and what their settings are ^^

Ehey, just what the queen was looking for!

95C water is fine for most applications really. In fact, most applications will end up deleting a lot of heat if you give them 95C water. Send it to an electrolyzer and yes, your O2 will be coming out at 95 instead of 75, but that's not really going to make a difference for your (minimum) gold amalgum equipment in the SPOM, and you're going to be cooling it off one way or another (and in fact the 95C is still cool enough to cool the SPOM itself). Most importantly, Hydrogen and Oxygen have way lower SHC than Water, so that's deleted heat energy meaning less cooling overall. Similar story for Hydroponics. You're probably going to have to cool your Farms anyway (even just a lightbulb is enough to overheat Bristle Berries in an insulated room). 95C water contained in insulated pipes isn't going to transfer that much heat to the surrounding tiles, so it won't really overstrain most cooling loops you'll already have. Most importantly, plants do not absorb heat directly from the water they consume, it's just deleted. Only the heat that leaks before it's consumed matters. The hotter the water you feed them, the more efficient you can make your overall setup. Ideally you probably want to match your number of plants with the water flow rate so it's consumed as fast as it comes in rather than sitting in the pipes slowly leaking heat. What else do you use water for? You need some for your Supercomputer science, which means a pitcher pump and an open pool. That you MAY want to cool down. Or you can make the pitcher pump out of gold amalgum and insulate the pool room, save that cooling for base outside of the room if you need it at all (beware scalding risk). Water used by the supercomputer is deleted along with its heat. You'll need water for your steam rooms, but obviously you WANT that water to be as hot as possible to start with. Oil Wells always produce at 90C or higher, so 5C difference shouldn't matter at all. The only uses for water I can think of where you will need to pre-cool it are Pacu lakes and Waterweed farms, and even then Tropical Pacu will live just fine in 95C water (and even cool it themselves a good bit down to 55C), so that just leaves Waterweed. Maybe cool the water for a rocket's living space too, but that's not always necessary either.

14:20 You say that aluminum metal tiles are simply the best. I would have added that they are the best because they have the highest specific heat capacity, to make it clear what you are looking for in this system. Why not let the whole cooler room be full of water? you would have minimal temperature gradients and save on refined metals.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I have done both, and both work pretty well.

8:41 little echo in the corner checking over the stats of the big fella steam vent before it explodes!! 😂

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Nice!

i liked an oddly shaped hot steam vent tamer i setup using a gas elevator. it pulled all the hot steam away from the vent for maximum water. used a loop of radiant pipes counterflowing the elevator to transfer heat into the steam chamber where a system of logic balanced the recirculation of turbine exhaust & injections of steam from the vent to keep 2 turbines running through dormancy. downside was that it output hot water

8:42 worker Echo looking at the steam geyser schematics

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Nice job.

At 1:29 , I am currently playing the exact same seed / Area (Idk how ONI is built). Thats insane, i recognized it instantly because of the weird water hole and 1 block gap bottom left haha. Thanks for the Tutorial

I think a theoretical way to cool a cool steam vent could be to take the 110 degree steam and heat it to 125. This doesn't need that much added heat. The steam turbines pump out water that is around 90-95 degrees. Effectively deleting heat from the vent, and heat you threw in to get it over 125 degrees. Not sure it actually makes sense. But takes 110 degree from the vent and you do end up with slightly cooler steam.

I was just looking up videos on taming cool steam vents for the colony I'm playing! I think I have about 80 hours in the game but I've never managed to get the hang of taming the vents. I always end up with clogged pipes or scalded duplicates.

@getemguapo_tv

Жыл бұрын

Only vent i know so far is the natural gas vent..

where has this video been all my life

Thanks for the guide! I have 4 cool steam vents on the map and didn't know how to do them properly so I ended up looking up a guide on how to do that and found this! Then I found a water geyser before I started so who cares anymore! I got my water now, no need to tame the vents just yet ^^

Happy to se an updated setup for this!

echo checking the building plans for the steamfend at 8.42

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Nice job!

I think i made smart batteries even smarter by adding a power cutter in front and after the line so that it doesnt take the intake line on top of your power consumption basically halving my power load on my power lines. just a 2 simple power cutters and one with a normal automasation and the other with a not gate.

This came at a great time I'm just about to enter late game I have petroleum boiler set up and just made my first batch of thermium but I have 2 hot steam vents on the map and didn't know how to tame them

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Sky is the limit with the thermium aquatuners. You can do some crazy things and break the mold on the simple tamers I showed.

tried this but immediately ran into some problem due to modifications: 1st: putting the liquid thermo sensor for the thermo aquatuner on the secondary cooling room is a bad choice, since the pipe there all insulated, they didn't reflect the actual change in the loop temps when the automation stop the cooling and the water stagnate, resulting in uncooled scalding water output. Solution: Put the thermo sensor on the normal liquid pipe at top with those exchanging heat cooling the steam turbine, it'll reflect the actual dangerous temps quicker and kick back the cooling loop much easier 2nd: water coming out from the chiller (1st setup) isn't cooled down enough sometimes and the temps rising up again after being cooled (I aimed for temps of ~25 ). Solution: expand the metal box 3 tiles where the previously chilled water ran through the insulated tiles, since insulated tiles does heat up the chilled water due to sometimes being hotter than the ambient temps, then ran a backloop of radiant liquid pipe to the lowest metal tile of chiller box, this effectively reduce the heat by another ~8 before outputted from the vent tamer compound. 3rd: in insulated tile enclosed space (to limit surrounding heat output), all steam turbine got overheated far too quick. Solution: install two radiant pipe, one at the furthest and second furthest steam turbine from the chiller cooling loop, this will ensure aquatuner still have enough cooling capacity to cool the steam water in the chiller (more than two radiant pipe and the cooling loop exchanged too much heat and would be overwhelmed) Special notes: I use gold for metal chiller and radiant pipes. thermal sensor is set to green if above 10, coolant is polluted water. If you set coolant to 5, the very first cooled water would reach negative temps and damage the radiant pipes so 10 is the lowest you can go. Also perhaps not really mentioned is you need to keep ~100kg of steam pressure secondary cooling room (along with steel aquatuner) else the steam heat capacity is too small and the aquatuner overheats. Running at ~1500kg steam pressure (full water room) might combat this issue and allow gold aquatuner, but haven't tried that yet since I didn't start the secondary coolign room with full filled water kekw

@danieltan7344

4 ай бұрын

Updates: regarding steam turbine too hot issue, put small pool of water on the steam turbine room, even just small 50kg each tile is enough to give large enough heat capacity to keep the turbine cool at 50-60 while not overheating secondary coolant loop. Increase secondary steam tank pressure to near full water capacity, else the room heated up far too high and hit above 325 and overheats steel aquatuner. Higher steam pressure also allows stable secondary loop steam turbine at around 500 W, lowering aquatuner burden to just 700W

If you can afford to use more water, do that instead of a bunch of metal tiles. It's more thermal mass.

Tank you very much for this tutorial. 👏👏👏

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

You are very welcome.

you can easly make a version of this that sends hot water straight to electrolyzers. benefit is that hydrogen and oxygen comming out, is way easier to chill, so if you pay for it, why pay to get water from 95 to 30 then electrolyze it, and pay again to go from 75 to 20?. if you want to be real cheap, you run that hot hydrogen though steam vent to chill the vent even, and then burn down the hydrogen, deleting heat. It will need some cooling, but I assume you can spare a dime, bc you already have 90'C oxygen leaving the system, so some kind of cooling is already in place for you. Going this route means you can get away with Anti Entropy Thermo-Nullifier. It means: a) you dont need plastic, b) you are getting back chill oxygen & some power. always try to visualize whole trip, from source to product, and most common usecases for water vents, colling down the water is only for berries.

There was a design I saw a while back where instead of cooling down the steam it would heat it up enough that it could be consumed by a turbine. Though I think the design had to be a lot larger or it would go overpressure too quickly.

I'm binging these tutorials like it's a netflix series

I end up just using AT/turbine to power cool the lower temperature vents/geysers and hybrid passive + active cooling for sulfur geysers and hotter outputs. 150C natgas and hydrogen just get insulated, insulated pipes and go directly to storage tanks, sectioned off from the rest of the colony. They still cool off and heat the rest of the area, but not a big deal. Forced cooling is practical enough to use anywhere when you have super coolant and a ceramics factory. Also, if you have supercoolant, then you aren't too far from where you need to be to get thermium for heat conductivity.

I found 6 hot vents of various types within spitting distance of my colony, 2 are actually within my base theyre just bricked off. Heat got spooky for a bit

I like that you explain the mechanics but would really appreciate a step by step guide to actually build the things you make a tutorial for. This is less of a tutorial and more of a lesson.

Much appreciated, this was a big help

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thank you.

"first make sure that the 100degree cool steam vent is vacuumed out"

Cool Slush Gayser and dump the hot water to space at the end

"Steam flash to water" I forgive you.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Sadly, I don't forgive myself :) ha

I have honestly had the worst time taming cool steam vents without an aquatuner. I wonder if a thermal regulator would work for them?

@commonsense-og1gz

Жыл бұрын

you would need probably 10 of them to do the same job, depending on the issue you're having.

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I tried one with a thermal regulator and it was not able to keep up.

@phatbman

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming that's a shame, I have been really liking their usage for Novel early game temperature regulation

Very good and well explained tutorial 10/10

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you very much.

Well done sir 😎👍

wouldn't it be more efficient to have the aquatuner in the same room as the cool steam vent so you can build the heat up and vaccum it with the steam turbine or is it just too much trouble for little gain

the only type of vent/geyser i tamed was a gold one, had the game on super easy so it was pretty managable, but yeah, good tip when it comes to the cooling methods!

Good job showing the automation /sarcasm

Actually gold tiles, while having a lower thermal conductivity, are still better heat conductors due to their specific heat capacity being 1/9th that of aluminum. Which is accurate with real life. I have only had the opportunity to tame one hot steam vent, but my method used two tribunes and pumped 3/4s of the water back into the box with the vent to control the steam temperature. I'm sure my design could use some refinement, but it worked pretty well for a first attempt.

Tamer in industrial brick

buffer tanks can also be interpreted as Accumulator

How about power requirements? Liquid autotuner cost 1.2kwh while the turbine only generate 850.

Question... In my world, I have this Hot steam vent, Do I have to suit up my dupe so that I can build insulated tiles?

Would it be a bad idea to hook up a cool steam vent to the aquatuner that cools down the rest of the base? Do i have to have a separate one? I'm not sure just how much heat+cooling area a steel aquatuner can take. My base IS still pretty small comparing to the big map

can you make steam vent infinite by placing drop of some liquid on it?

What is the recommended material for the temperature shift plate?

So in your hot steam vent tuner you didn't really show the automation overlay. Can I assume the liquid temp sensor controls the aquatuner?

Useful thanks. How do you ensure that you have a starting vacuum in the cool Steam vent chamber without leaving a gas pump behind in there?

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Use a liquid lock and then when the vacuum is set, build in tiles and remove the lock.

Well both menthod are easy to solve by using temp sensor.

9:15 is an audio spike. Just a heads up for sensitive hearing

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Rew To. What is nuts is it is only happened after it was rendered. One day I am going to figure it out.

@thyghostridder

Жыл бұрын

You aren’t the only one I heard it on. I always thought it was on my side

What is the HYdro thermo sensor connected to ? in the cool steam vent part.

@danieltan7344

4 ай бұрын

To the liquid pump to set when the pump start collecting water to store. I use a buffer gate too to increase the time by another 100s, making sure the pump siphon enough water for it to be simply collecting water for another cycle or two, smoothing out the power demand

Wonder how the systems fair with the new liquid temp plates.

The steam vent tamer is kinda inneficient no? A lot of heat is deleted

How do you get the cooling water to loop around?

@fuselpeter5393

10 ай бұрын

I wonder too. ^^'

what is the ratio of steam into water like how much dose 1 gm equal to water oni???

@EchoRidgeGaming

5 ай бұрын

It is 1:1.

Really wished you did a step-by-step guide on the build of the entire system of taming it instead of showing the final output of the cool steam vent. I watched your cooling guide for a better explanation since the cooling part is extremely crucial for the build. And yes, I did eventually managed to tame them properly. Nonetheless, useful vid

Thinking of giving this game another shot. Do the Wheezeworts still work well?

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Decently so. I use them frequently for radiation.

Sorry but your hot steam tamer is bad, the steam comes out with 500 C the steam turbine have 200 C limit (hotter steam does't gives more power and 10% of heat is transfered to turbine) you can cover 3 out of 5 intakes and add more turbines (then limit is 357C , a bit better) or extract some of the heat from steam before using steam turbine Ofcourse it only applies If you want to generate power, the water output would be still the same, your design is (I think) power positive

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Many ways to crack it. They aren't bad, they are simple. As said in the video though, there are a lot of ways to do it, depending on your needs. I do like the method of covering intakes to make it more efficient, down side is it taking more space with more turbines I suppose.

geoturners are a thing now

I tried the fully tame cool vent setup myself, and my gold amalgam aquatuner spikes in temperature to overheat almost every time it turns on once it got to over about 80 in the room. As soon as it turns off, it immediately drops to match the room, but I can't seem to get it to stop overheating. Any suggestions?

@Cobalt57

Жыл бұрын

This is only a guess, but is the aquatuner properly submerged, and backed with tempshift plates to carry heat to neighbouring liquid tiles? Is it stable when the liquid is moving through more slowly?

@nathann1092

11 ай бұрын

Don't use gold amalgam aqua tuners except for making steel.((use petroleum for the coolant for the metal refinery, keep that petroleum under 1,000°F (before it turns into sour gas) and loop it through the aquatuner until it gets back to between 200°F and -50°F)(submerge the aquatuner in water to absorb the heat)) Steel can easily resist the temperature whereas gold ones can't.

bro just show the automation come on

@bastiphantasty7147

Жыл бұрын

the energy aswell...

what do you put the hydro sensors on

Do you have a vanilla beginner's guide to this game. I have like 1,000 but I'm not sure what I'm really doing and my base overheats or I just run out of food. I also never got plastic in this game......

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I do. Search “Echo Ridge Gaming Absolute Beginners guide”

@Wildestleaf

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming I shall 👍

I comment to help statistics

8:43 is the echo

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Nice

In reality copper would be better for cooling than aluminium. ^^'

ah so u can use infinite storage backwards🙄 fk this game i was rushing for resin to make one ..

these solutions are horrible because you're assuming energy is free or already abundant. this is never the case early on, when it matters the most. when you have enough energy later on, it hardly matters how you tame the steam vents. just taming the vents is not enough, you gotta do it efficiently. this is applicable if all you do is debug or sandbox mode. otherwise, you do explain some of the concepts so even a new player can learn something here.

i'm italian. ciao

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Ciao Francesco!

@francescodiegidio6377

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming ciao! bellissimo video comunque, e utile

what mod do you use for instant analysis?

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

No mod, it does it in debug mode.

@overdramaticpan

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming oh

@overdramaticpan

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming how do you get debug to work on mac? stuff like ctrl+fn+f4 don't work, nor does cmd+fn+f4, tried making functions not need the fn key and that doesn't work either

@EchoRidgeGaming

Жыл бұрын

@@overdramaticpan are you in debug mode? Search up a video I made called “Intro to Debug mode” to confirm.

@overdramaticpan

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoRidgeGaming yes, i was in debug mode (even had the menu open, tried it with it closed) and i did previously comment this on your intro to debug mode video but i don't know if you saw it (sorry for cross-commenting D:)

First 😊❤

I still don’t really understand the point of cool steam vents, they usually always need a large amount of external power. And only ever put out some hot water. Blocking them off and never touching them just seems like a better solution.

I thought I was gonna see this how it was built SMH, this is a bit too much for begginers

this sucks, creative sucks, trying to build from creative sucks, you forgot hugely important things like gas pumps to make vac and automation on the output water

Well, very energy wasteful design on first CSV tamer. Second CSV is water wasteful. Francis John did a lot better CSV tamer...years before. Still okayish job. Hot Steam Vent is totally whackjob though... Wasteful as heck. Better to shop around for much better versions LOL