Hi, my Suzuki GSX-S1000GT rattle at warm startup only. Your video is great. Regards from Slovenija

Thanks for the excellent video! I bought my Concours 2013 here in Brazil a few months ago and although my mechanic told me "relax, this noise is ok", every time I started the bike I asked myself: "Wow, is this normal? Really?". Ok, now with your perfect explanation I can ride in peace.

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

I did not understand it thoroughly until I tore into the cams for a valve clearance shim adjustment. Once you see it and examine the tensioner closely, it's pretty clear to see that it's just slapping around on the non-metallic rub or guides for a couple seconds until the oil pressure pushes the chain 100% taught. Everyone fears it's whacking the aluminum inside the chain tunnel, but there is no way that would happen unless the chain broke in two. Cheers, ride safe.

@brunogoulart

Жыл бұрын

Cheers! Thank you again! I'm publishing a link to your video in a brazilian Concours group.

@dirkwiesbaden6121

10 ай бұрын

I have the 2007 Concour and exact the same Noise when i start! So, drive safe with the Big boob! Greetings from Germany! 😊

@daryllmroberts7958

4 ай бұрын

my 08 was noisier than my 06,,,,,,run a great oil like a motul,,,youll be fine

Brilliant explanation of how it works! Thank you! 👍🏻

Very Informative, even for those of us who have been wrenching on bikes for years.

Someone pointed out that the can-chain tensioner could be stuck between ratcheting positions. Both his explanation and your advice to pull it out a little and retighten it, brought me to thinking that the cam-chain could have changed in length and may not match some tensioners and match other tensioners. If you take under consideration that every part has to meet tolerance specifications, so if the cam-chain is within the shortest length and the maximum length matching it with a tensioner that also has a minimum and maximum length and spring pressure specification, the minimum to one and the maximum to the other could result in malfunction. For example of the tensioner has spring that meets the minimum pressure specification and you have a chain that meets the maximum length specification, then the gap between detention and the chain is obviously going to be at its maximum, with the most space it could possibly have. If the reverse specifications are met, and the tensioner has the maximum tension in the chain is at the shortest, chain-link specific than there might not even be a gap. Looking the ratcheting positions in the tensioner that you show in this video, the outermost point point looks to be too narrow for the tensioner, not to set it itself into the next position. I’ll explain it in another way, if you were to hold a screwdriver on the tip of one of those high points, it’s going to slip into either side. if this pressure on one side, the screwdriver is going to hop onto the next position because there’s pressure to one side. If the spring is pushing the plunger out, then I can’t see the tensioner getting stuck on that high spot. I think the clip will fall into the next position. Unless the chain is not stretching at all in detention or cannot push anymore, and it just rides on top of that high spot. If the chain tensioner is the culprit in this rattling making noise business, does this make sense to you? If the tensioner is not the problem in the problem starts after the first or second service and there’s an update to the ECU in that update is controlling the timing then it could cause detonation or pre-ignition. Do you find this to be a credible reason why the engine could knock if it’s due to an ECU error ? You have to admit that the engines start making noise after a service at the dealership. Something is going on during that service. Either that or all these motorcycle engine manufacturers are purchasing chain, tensioners from the same supplier and they’re all malfunctioning . Bottom line is these engines should not be making any noise .

@MotoRestoFL

9 күн бұрын

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t have a good answer. It’s possible regarding the teeth on the tensioner. It’s hard to explain but it’s not like an old school one, which unfortunately I couldn’t find the one I had (and have) when I did this video. I know where it now. Anyway, there isn’t a steel pawl that catches the teeth on the tensioner it’s a clip. And the clip has some give and movement. It’s not a really solid stop in other words. It doesn’t have to be, because hydraulic pressure is that stop. It just prevents the tensioner from relaxing completely. I don’t know of any ECU flash that corrects this, it’s just oil pressure which takes a few moments to build up. It’s certainly something to do with cam chain stretch but other than that, I don’t know. You bring up good ideas to ponder though.

@ginoasci2876

9 күн бұрын

@@MotoRestoFL : I appreciate the response.

My R1 2011 does this only on start up and I was stressed but I can relax now. I have only had the bike a month

Well done.

I have a 2019 Z900RS, it's sounded that way from day one, go's away right quick, figured it was hydraulic. Thanks 🤘

AWESOME VIDEO !!!! I’ll explain why this is awesome. Triumph 900 and 1200 engines have a mysterious knocking that occurs after the first or even second oil change. Mine is a new 2022 Triumph Scrambler 1200XC I purchased as a left over. It was running great until the second service and with only 1900 miles it immediately developed a knocking noise. Many people with many different ideas about what this could be and the worry that it could cause engine damage, this tensioner in my opinion seems to be the answer. My only question is why would the noise start after 30 seconds and not immediately? Although mine would start after 30 seconds but yesterday the noise was immediate. THANK YOU FOR THIS EXPLANATION !

@MotoRestoFL

Ай бұрын

My Kawasaki Nomad 1600 did the same thing way back in 2006. Does the Triumph have hydraulic lifters by any chance? If it does, I wouldn't worry about it unless there's something specifically known about them (sorta like the roller lifters on the Chrysler 5.7 Hemi). I don't work on Triumphs so take my advice with a grain of salt, or perhaps, grain alcohol. Cheers.

I crank my CBR600 until the oil pressure light goes out and then start it if it's been sitting over a week, just makes me feel better if I don't hear it 😁It didn't do it when it was new though either.

Youre a freaking lifesaver. Ive been trying to diagnose the noise myself and couldnt figure out why i had the rattle noise. This makes so much sense!! Can the CCT still make somewhat of a ticking noise then when its getting warmed up? Is that normal?

@MotoRestoFL

3 ай бұрын

Mine does for maybe 15-20 seconds, I don't worry about it. Then it goes away. If you're ticking for a long period of time, it's possibly you need a valve clearance check, you may have a larger clearance on one or more, but unlikely. And even if it did, if it's a thou or two out on the loose side, it's a shim-under-bucket, so there's no place for it go go anyway, I wouldn't go cray-cray over it, if ya know what I mean. Cheers.

@ChowTY42

3 ай бұрын

@@MotoRestoFL all this this time i thought i was going to have to pony up $2500 to replace chains and CCTs. Again thank you for explaining all of this!

@ginoasci2876

11 күн бұрын

@@ChowTY42: I have a brand new 2022 triumph scrambler 1200 XC that’s doing the same thing but only after the second service. ZERO noises are acceptable on a motorcycle or car with only 1806 miles on it. I don’t think an engine should be rattling at all. I completely disagree that this is normal or for the dealer to say that it’s not damaging and we should overlook it. We pay a lot of money for motorcycles and they should run perfectly. Triumph and Suzuki should warranty their bikes indefinitely for this manufacturing fault if it’s nothing to worry about. Honestly, my engine noise sounds like piston slap. Can’t prove it, but that’s what the sound is like. Have you resolved you rattle ?

@ChowTY42

11 күн бұрын

@@ginoasci2876 i actually dropped my bike off to get my valves checked and dealership quoted me parts for $2500 including labor to complete that valve adjustment. Luckily, they said it’s on back order and I canceled the job. They did a hearing test to see if there were any audible sounds from the valves. All checks out. The only sound which is the rattle is my Coffman exhaust. It’s probably when I installed the rivet, the rivet might be loose which is causing the initial rattle sound in the beginning and then goes away after riding.

@ginoasci2876

11 күн бұрын

@@ChowTY42 : $2500 for a valve adjustment is outrageous. They adjust valves, they don’t replace them or replace anything other than maybe gaskets. What all that money for ?

My yamaha tdm has this too. I have to correct the tensioner..

Hi, Thank you for making these videos it's a huge help. I recently picked up a high miles 2015 Concours 14 in non running condition. Clutch is super hard to press and when shift from neutral to 1st gear it shuts off. Is there anyway I can email you for help? I don't know much about these machines but highly eager to learn. Best regards, Khan

@MotoRestoFL

10 ай бұрын

I replied to this question on your other comment, yes. motorestofl@gmail.com

great clear explanation . i have a 2001 r6 , been tapping from top of engine for 2 years , and if i listened through oil filler hole i could her intermittent but regular " ka-ka-ka " sorta thing . Someone suggested to put the bike in 6th gear and roll it back and pop the clutch , and that cam chain slack would be taken up by the acct .. and it worked ! 2 years of ka-ka-ka from inside engine is now gone 100% , i get a little tapping from top of engine but not much . im happy but can you explain why this fixed it ? engine performance is way better suddenly

@MotoRestoFL

5 күн бұрын

You must have ESP. I am at this exact moment, rendering a video to be dropped tomorrow afternoon which is a revisiting of this with testing and some working theories that may help you answer that question. Net sum it depends upon the tensioner. If you watch the video you'll see. Cheers.

When you demostrated the movement of the camchain against the tensioner, with your finger as anti-clockwise, doesn't it not run in a clockwise direction. On my machines, the tensioner, is to the rear of the chain. A small obsevation, I know, is the tensioner, on the engine front, on the model, your describing. Of course, VVT, will alter things VVT, was first used in production cars by Alfa Romeo, in 1980, Kawasaki Concours 2007, was the first motorcycle to employ it, 27 years after Alpha Romeo. I suppose complexity and weight penalty has delayed it's implementation in motorcycle engines. Not so, with hydraulic valves.

That 1st 1 would you say has a self adjust over time And could rattle worse on some than others as part is wearing out As spring is wearing As yoused or age And same with the pin as wearing spring Dirt as metal wear chafing. Spring Great video But So every 1 knows may be wearing pin ..or spring As can go other way And get contact On other parts or failure of Chain Most common chafing on other parts but could be chain or jumped chain Great vid no offence just trying to add to vid to stop Orther costs for sum 1 Better to service your bike in other words cheers buddy interesting to cheers

Sir, question. Your video nailed my issue after months of looking! However, my 2021 engine noise is much worse at times...yet goes away I assume after the oil pressure builds. Bike shops here south of seattle have no clue. I did hear that the new H2 has a recall on their cam chain tensioner. I still have metal fragments in the oil (3500mi on the bike currently). I checked your vid on valve adjust, and it looks like the cam chain is all metal to metal in the assembly (?)...so I'm concerned about potential damage. The question(s), is a manual tensioner available for the concours? Thank you for the time! James

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

I have never heard of or seen any manual tensioner for this engine. This is probably because of the variable valve timing. That's just a guess on my part. It would stand to reason that when the cams phase, the tension on the chain may require some dampening that a hydraulic tensioner would provide, whereas, a manual tensioner would not. Yes, chain tunnel being part of the cylinder assembly is aluminum, however, unless there's something really messed up, there's no way the chain is going to smack that aluminum. The cam chain guides are what the chain contacts. And there'd be little chance any side-to-side play in the chain due to slack would allow that. If the chain was that flimsy loose, it'd jump teeth every time it was first cranked cold. The "rattle" is the chain smacking the guides, not metal. There are exceptions, like is there anything out of spec from the factory with the guides or where they pivot or are bolted? Certainly possible but highly, highly improbable. My recommendation would be to always run a Kawasaki oil filter, not an aftermarket like an auto parts store brand that cross-references over, because the mothership engineers designed the thing to spool up oil pressure based upon the entire system which includes their filters. So if you're running one of those, definitely change over to an OEM filter. As for metal fragments in the oil, how are you determining that? Are you having the oil analyzed or just by sight? You could always send a sample out for analysis, but in reality, that engine is built pretty much bomb-proof, I wouldn't get ramped up about it and just go riding. Cheers.

@jamesbruskas453

Жыл бұрын

@@MotoRestoFL Thank you for the response! Seems the noise problem developed over time. I bought the bike new Nov of 21. A friend who has a 2016 model never had the issue. So, a rabbit trailing I went...for months. Local dealers here in western Washington had no idea. Your video and explanation above helps tremendously! Peace of mind. I have not analyzed the oil (great idea!), just drained into a clear container. Possible was seeing "break in" debris, but thought the worst. I do use the oem filter...but ran automotive 10w-40 for the first few oil changes. This might have exacerbated the problem? Have changed to a full synthetic jaso spec oil...hoping the better oil will "move" faster at start up. I appreciate your time and wisdom! Thanks again!

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesbruskas453 Non-JASO regular automotive oil is not rated for wet clutch bikes. I know, the old school race KZ builders use Castrol GTX, but you need the friction modifiers. For the engine, wouldn't do squat, oil is oil. Don't worry about it. Personally, I don't use any synthetic in anything. It makes my Concours clutch chatter. Mine has that damned clutch howl under hard friction zone acceleration anyway, nobody knows what that is either and I have swapped out to a Barnett clutch pack. I run Shell Rotella 15W-40 diesel oil in everything... my VFR, Magna and Concours. Rotella is especially good in flat tappet cam engines because it has some of the vitamins and minerals (Zinc, etc.) still in the oil and not stripped out by the Greta Thunberg crowd. It's good for high-pressure bits like when a cam lobe comes across a bucket. It's just what I do not a recommendation. But I digress. It'll be fine, just ride the thing. Cheers.

@jamesbruskas453

Жыл бұрын

​@@MotoRestoFL Mr. Tom, that's good information...and the second Rotella use success story I've heard. I've never been a fan of expansive oil and the 'ol $70 plus oil change in no bueno for a guy who will never ride with the skill that it would matter. Off the subject in a way, what's your opinion on bar risers and other touring gadgets? My 2000 concours has a set of highway pegs (murphs I think) that are fantastic. The new concours does get the "zippy" vote...but I am disappointed in the over build "practicality"...like children great with design software skills were tasked to wrap plastic around a once performance bike (not the zx-14 they would like you to believe). To this day I haven't found a good vid on removing the lower/mid/upper plastic that makes sense of the service manual. Probably just me :-) Anyway, the next adventure is the carburetor and valves on the ZG1000...will probably seek your wisdom once again. Thanks, James

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesbruskas453 I have the Heli Industries Horizon setup on my C14, it's unfortunately the most expensive but most adjustable option. I love them. They fixed serious issues I had with wrist pain, even with simple height adjust risers I tried previously. I do not know enough about the C10 to advise on risers, but the company that makes the Heli Bars is excellent. Just search for HeliBars and you'll find them. The plastics on the C14 leave much to be desired that's for sure. It's way too easy to break tabs, and those rubber Well Nuts just plain stink. The procedure is a learned operation by doing it a number of times. I never read the service manual on plastics removal. Once you figure out an order of operations, it's really quite easy. Reinstalling is a trick due to having all the tabs and articulation points join properly, but even they aren't terrible once you do it a few times. The C10 engine is virtually the same as the ZX-10 I had, I had an '89. That engine is the easiest I have ever seen to change valve shims. Has those rockers that slide sideways and you simply nip the shim and replace with another of proper thickness. Carbs are standard for the period, your biggest issue is the fuel cock's which are vacuum actuated and can bypass, filling your crankcase with gas after the carbs overflow (that's the good news) and the bad news, is hydro locking the engine and bending a con-rod. I would immediately dump that fuel cock for a Pingle on-off-reserve, but... you must make sure you turn it off when done riding or the same problems occur. The Pingle valves are almost bomb proof. Cheers.

Thanks for a great video. I understand much better how these work now. I have a tick on start up but it lasts for maybe ten seconds. Gen 2 2012 with 14000miles on it, Should I be concerned? Yours only seems to tick for a short while. Mine is always worse when its hot. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks Eddie

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes mine ticks for awhile as well. Gotta remember these are shim engines so there are flat pieces of hardened steel (bucket and shim) pushing against a valve stem actuated by a cam spinning quite smartly, only thing that dampens that is the oil and it takes a few moments to build flow and pressure. But it's designed that way, I've never, ever heard of a C14 crapping out a cam or barfing up a bearing, pretty bomb-proof engine. You're nearing that first "recommended" valve clearance mileage point, I think that's around 15k, so it's up to you whether you get that done. The european models are twice that mileage for the first check, nobody knows why. You'll have to make that decision to have that checked or not but don't lose sleep over it. Plenty of engines with upwards of 100k on them that have never had the valve clearances checked. I'd suggest if the noise gets worse, to probably have the clearance check done at the specified intervals. Otherwise, just ride the thing. Cheers.

hey tom,,, just adjusted the cam chain on my 1990 kz1000p trying to follow along this vid,, put all back together and the compression dropped to 80 across all cylinders it was 150 across ,,,it has to be one or both cams wont let the valves close,, but all due to a chain adjustment ? your opinion would be greatly appreciated

@MotoRestoFL

3 ай бұрын

?? This is a video on a concours 14 cam chain with hydraulic tensioner. The J motor 1000 has a completely different tensioner. No adjustment should be necessary. I only explain how they work. If this happened immediately after fiddling with the tensioner you must have mucked up the cam timing and its jumped a tooth or two. I am not sure otherwise. Pull the head cover and check the cam timing.

@tomherring9696

3 ай бұрын

@@MotoRestoFL yes sir... i'll pull the cover and take a look.. thank you for your help,, great channel by the way

My bike is brand new. It is a 2023 Suzuki GSX S1000. Right after the 600 mile oil change, mine started to rattle. But, it lasts for 10-20 seconds. Sometimes longer, sometimes it doesn't do it at all, and only when hot. A lot of other people on the GSXS forum are saying the same thing. It doesn't sound like it should be normal. Sometimes it is really loud. I don't know. No one seems to have had any failures because of it, and I am still under warranty. Does the trick to tighten up the tensioner still work? Loosen bolts, back tensioner out a little until you hear a click, and tighten it back up?

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

Not sure about that model. I don’t work on many newer bikes. I only did this video because the bike is mine and it’s a known Kawasaki issue. My clutch howls in the friction zone under hard acceleration, it has since day one and I’ve even upgraded the clutch pack with EBC material and new springs. But it still does it. Kawasaki told me under warranty, it was normal. My point is, some machinery just had unusual noises that are inherent with the design. Why some do and some don’t even between same exact year and model is anyone’s guess. Manufacturing variances? Who knows. Since yours is new and under warranty, you may want to just run it by the dealer and document the condition, especially if they likewise say it’s normal. Then it’ll be in their system if it turns out to ultimately be a repairable item.

@rm25088

Жыл бұрын

@@MotoRestoFL Those sound like solid plans. I do have videos and a thread started on a forum. Some people tried contacting the dealer, and that is exactly what they said. So, I won't worry about it. I will still let them know.

@Stuckinthepast23

11 ай бұрын

My dealer claims the rattle is normal on the GT until the oil pressure builds up and like you said there are no reported failures (yet). I’ll keep an eye on it for now and if it worsens I’ll get it in to be looked at.

@rm25088

11 ай бұрын

@@Stuckinthepast23 yeah I'm closing in on 1000 miles and no changes. It seems to do it less now. I did change the oil again to another kind of oil. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. Went with Castrol. I have a Suzuki oil change kit for next season. 10w40 semi synthetic, Suzuki brand.

@MotoRestoFL

11 ай бұрын

@@Stuckinthepast23 It may come and go a bit, assuming Suzuki uses a similar ratchet-type tensioner, they're designed not to be a hard stop but a failsafe, the ratchet teeth on the C14's tensioner aren't as fine as a non-hydraulic tensioner, it's easy for the tension on the chain to be falling in between the latching of the next tighter "click" so to speak, if it does click to the next tooth, it may sound less pronounced but chain stretch and slight wear, it'll eventually be back. I think with variable valve timing and other factors, they engineer in that dampening being hydraulically actuated, the flip-side is a sloppy chain at start up, but it's not going to go anywhere, unless it broke and they're not easy to break, quite hearty actually. So I just don't worry about it. Course, I hardly ride that bike anymore, so.... lol.

What do you think about eliminating the hydraulic cam chain tensioner and going with a manual tensioner instead?

@MotoRestoFL

19 сағат бұрын

I don't know. It's why I mentioned how I wondered what the race bikes with the ZX14 engines did. Being this is all theory, aka guesswork of a working theory at least.

I have an zx6r 636 06 am hearing the rattling ticking sound as of today when I start my bike and my friend told me is serious I need to be looked at right away

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

I’m unfamiliar with the bike so I can’t offer any advice.

And do you think a Concours 14 cam chain could still be ok after 100k miles?

@MotoRestoFL

2 ай бұрын

Hell yes. I recently saw pic of a C14's odometer at 300k miles. I bet that motor has never been cracked either, except perhaps for valve clearance but I'm unsure of that even.

What do you mean by turning over the motor? How?

@MotoRestoFL

9 күн бұрын

Cranking.

Is it an easy fix and where are you located? Could you fix it for me?

@MotoRestoFL

11 ай бұрын

There really is no "fix" unless something is broken, start-up rattle is just a nature of the beast. No fixes that I am aware of at least. I am in Florida.

Hello, I have a 2011 Mint Concours 14 with only 15k miles no mods all factory and the grind at start up is cringeworthy and I absolutely hate it and shouldnt dread starting it but I do sorry to be dramatic but might sell it because of that...I didnt finish the whole video but you said you've never heard of a manual tensioner but is there anything I can do to eliminate this noise?? Pleeeeaase😅....I always use Oem kawi filter and 20w50 syn oil...If I use 10w40 instead will it flow quicker to build pressure quicker??...Ty...... In my humble opinion in no way should you hear that god-awful noise on a beautiful brand new bike like this any more than you should hear it in a brand new car

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

I know of no manual cam chain tensioner option. There may be one, I haven't heard or read about it myself. The engine has Variable Valve timing on the intake valve. I think if you put a manual tensioner on, it may mess with that on start-up or at other times as well but that's just a theory with absolutely no backing material, just a thought of mine and may very well be incorrect. While I agree that it shouldn't do it, and on many it didn't do it when out-of-the-crate brand-new, there is no solution to it besides just ignoring it. I had a Harley Ultra Classic that sounded like the starter ran on marbles and the dealer said it was normal. But you're right, for a refined Japanese bike, they are just awfully loud at first start. As for oil, I cannot say whether or not a thinner viscosity oil would work better. 20-50 is a rated weight listed in the service manual especially for ambient high temperature environments so it should be fine running that oil as it would with any rated viscosity oil. You can ask a dealer service department about it, maybe you'll get lucky and somebody there actually has their shit together and knows something. This video is my opinion based upon my observations of the valve train during the valve clearance check and adjustment procedures, and after carefully looking at the cam chain tensioner, there is nothing metal to metal anything is contacting when the rattle occurs, it's impossible to jump off the gears, unlike bikes of a vintage flavor, there isn't enough slack in the chain to do that at zero tension. Net-sum, it's not doing any damage at all in my opinion. I wish Kawasaki would offer up a revised tensioner for this but again, I doubt they will even admit the issue exists. Wish I could help further.

wasn't normal when new.!

@MotoRestoFL

Жыл бұрын

What was? It's a machine, it wears and as it does so, it will make different noises. Doesn't matter if its a motorcycle or a washing machine.

Question for you as you really understand Kawasakis. Your thoughts on the rattle on my 2003 Voyager xii (alternator side)....only at 1500-1800 rpm. The two theories are starter chain or loose alternator retaining bolt rattling? I appreciate any comment..bikes runs great less this rattle noise. Here is the video...kzread.info/dash/bejne/hGdqxaSIcrfgqLA.html

@MotoRestoFL

2 жыл бұрын

I’m wondering, you say 1500-1800 but it seems only when you engage forward propulsion. Does it do it if you are in neutral and slowly raise the idle up? Obviously it idles lower than 1500. What’s the mileage also? If it only does this when you’re letting out the clutch then it’s something related to that or what I was thinking is driveshaft. Or some final drive issue. If it will do the noise without any load you need to take your idle adjustment and if you can adjust the curb idle up so it’s making the noise, use a stethoscope or a long screwdriver with your ear on it to pinpoint the source. Again if it only does it while in the clutch friction zone then put the thing on the center stand in gear and rotate the rear wheel back and forth taking up the lash and see if you can mimic the sound somewhat. If it’s not that I’d be pulling the clutch cover. Finally, these faired bikes have all sorts of places a harmonic can vibrate something metallic so go around with a screwdriver handle and tap stuff seeing if you can derive the same tone out of something like that chrome cover.

Man, you gotta' quit biting your nails!

@MotoRestoFL

9 ай бұрын

Grinder got them. Far as you know. Lol