Excellent presentation. I like to buy American as long as it is worth it and truly "Made in the USA" and not "packaged/assembled/designed/etc. in the USA (but made anywhere but in the USA). One essential feature for me, as far as I am concerned, regardless of the origin and/or name of the product, is that a "square" should be "square". There is no excuse for a square not producing parallel lines or scribe marks. Ciao, L

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

Right on. If it isn’t square what’s the point. I had some craftsmen branded ones, USA made but they both weren’t square. I was pretty disappointed after I noticed that.

All my life, I've used to Tesa and Roche ( non-adjustable ground squares. Both squares are ground from the solid and I've only had to recalibrate one square once in my lifetime. Recalibration involves regrinding and constantly checking and then finally lapping the fine edges. I usually end up paying over $150 per 100 mm. Thanks for the presentation and I did subscribe and I like the channel.

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I do have a non-adjustable square that I use when I really want to trust my square measurement more than with the ajustables. Recalibration is pretty expensive, but if you need it that is what it takes. I have great respect for metrologists and their abilities. Thanks for the like and subscribe!

I got the igaging square as a Christmas present and am pretty happy with it. Glad to hear that it's a decent product for a great price. Thanks for the review and comparison.

Great comparison review. I just got 6" and 4" double square iGaging squares and they are all true squares... But one thing I have noticed right away is that there is a slight wobble from side to side of the ruler when fully locked in the handle. I don't think that's normal .. my Empire combination square locks super solid without any wobble anywhere... Not sure if my double square is defective...

@BuildItMakeIt

7 ай бұрын

Yeah if it is wobbling while locked I think the ruler is defective. Mine doesn't do that.

Excellent comparison and review! I'm new to woodworking and just a few months ago purchased my first combination square, a 12“ Starrett 4R with the additional center finder and protractor heads. I acknowledge that some will say that this is overkill for my current capabilities as a beginner and that I've wasted money that I could have invested in other tools. I think that 'expensive' is subjective. Every time I use the Starrett (very frequently) I appreciate the quality of the materials and manufacturing. I also have verified its accuracy and trust that it will remain true after years of use. To me, that level of confidence and enjoyment in using the tool is well worth the expense of the Starrett. I'm fortunate to be able to prioritize quality and accuracy over price. To be fair, I do own several iGaging tools (setup block set, marking knife, machinist squares, etc...) and think that they are a great value. When it comes to squares, though, I'll probably continue to opt for Starrett (or possibly Woodpeckers) in the future.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I am glad you liked the video. That 12" Starrett 4R is a nice tool, I have one at work that I love. I think if you are going to get a nicer tool that one is great because of all the extra features over a simpler double square. I have a craftsmen version of the combination square and it is.... terrible. Using good tools is so nice to have that confidence and enjoyment. I do think that cheaper tools if you don't know how much you will use something is good, or if it primarily used in a relative dimensioning way, but for absolute measurements I LOVE the premium stuff.

As an old guy, I've been "ruint" by Starrett's quality. When you know you're in this tool thing for as long as you can still sit upright, anything less won't do. Brown & Sharpe has traditionally met or exceeded Starrett's quality though I don't know whether that still holds true or their current pricing. I'm looking for high quality metric-only squares in both 100 mm and 200 mm length. Anyone have a suggestion?

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

I think a lot of Starrett comes down for me is I can also by them certified. It is why they are used at my job, and in the machine shop I used to work for. For a home shop I think it is generally overkill. I think most any tools that you can buy standard with metrology certificates will be good. In that realm starrrett is generally the cheapest tool brand :)

@felixf5211

4 ай бұрын

I also prefer B & S squares to Starrett. Don't know about today's offerings, either, other than Starrett. Still good, IME.

Woodpecker said “hold my beer”

ALL my squares are Starrett and they are within 1 tenthou. There are some tools that you should just suck it up and buy the good ones. There are no cheap tools. They either work or they do no and quality usually provides comfort in use and accuracy.

@BuildItMakeIt

6 ай бұрын

I do love my Starrett tools. I agree you are pretty much always sacrificing something.

This is good information. I recently bought the iGaging 4" and 6" Double Squares and the 6" and 12" Combination Squares. Mine are dead on square as near as I can see. I didn't do all the other measurements you did, though. I have been very happy with them and I like the weight of them. However, I use Starret in a variety of sizes in the lab at work and agree that they move more smoothly and have an over-all higher quality 'feel' about them. I suspect it's much like with most other things. The more expensive tool is better but the question becomes is it better enough to justify the price? If my budget had been higher, I would have bought a couple Starret squares instead of the iGaging but I needed a tool I could afford and iGaging seemed the affordable option. I do have a question, for you though. What is the accuracy of the calipers that you are using to measure those squares with? You say the Starret is off by 0.5 thousandths in length but couldn't the iGaging calipers just as easily be off by that much or more? Are they calibrated?

@BuildItMakeIt

3 жыл бұрын

I think you are right to question my calipers. I trust the starrett length to be more accurate than my measurement. Certainly being 1/2 thou off is within the repeatability error of those calipers as well. I need to start saving my money for a Mitutoyo to really tell :)

@gmvader

3 жыл бұрын

@@BuildItMakeIt Mitutoyo would be nice but I don't know if you would notice the difference. That's what we use at work (and get them calibrated regularly) but even those are only stated to be precise to .001" when measuring 4 inches. I think to be more precise you would need a micrometer or interferometer. Regardless, though, your point in the video is a good one. The Starrett is accurate across the width and more accurate than the iGaging.

I purchased a 6" I-Gaging combination square. The head dragged rather than move smoothly. I disassembled the square and went to work with a jewelers file. The operation is smoother now. I used some mineral spirits on the blade to clean it and found the blade info harder to read.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I smoothed up mine as well but not a ton because I didn't want to introduce a ton of slop. I will have to go at it again to try and smooth it up some more. For the blade you can re-add paint to the markings to help you see it better. What I like to do is add some black ink or an oil based paint to the whole thing with a rubber squeegee so it gets into the markings, then when dry lightly sand (at like 1000 grit) down the faces on a flat surface. Add a touch of wax and you should be able to see the markings really well. This happens to steel rules over time.

Thanks. Well done.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate it, I’m glad it was useful.

So how do you personally pronounce Starrett? When I worked in a machine shop in my early 20's in Utah it was "stair"-ett but later in Indiana I mostly heard it "star"-ett. Now I seem to vacillate between the two.

@gmvader

3 жыл бұрын

I always say "star'-ett but, according to videos posted on their website it should be pronounced 'stair'-ett.

The Woodpecker Mini in-Dexable Double Square 4-inch is great but expensive. I wish I could afford more Woodpecker tools.

@BuildItMakeIt

8 ай бұрын

Yeah that think looks awesome. I would love to try some woodpecker stuff as well.

@tallpaull9367

3 ай бұрын

My various squares are a mix of Milwaukee, Swanson, Stanley. But I went for a 6” Woodpecker In-Dexable Double Square and a Veritas Precision Square, they’re nice!

I recently purchased an iGaging 4" double square. From Taylor Tool Works in Missouri. It's not too bad, but not very smooth to adjust like a Starrett. That said, I messed around with it a bit and now find it fairly acceptable. What I did was very gently (gently!) run a round file in the groove of the blade (ruler). In addition, I added a washer between the locking nut and the unit. That really made it slide better. Wasn't that easy to do however! I plan to find a nylon washer and try that. I think changing the orientation of the blade from say 64ths to 1/8th for instance is quite tedious compared to a Starrett. But, at $85-90 vs. $18 or so I guess I can put up with this. My iGaging is quite accurate as far as being square. I'd be interested in trying a PEC.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks this is some super good information. Ill have to try the file and washer. How thick was the washer you added? Mine is still jamming up and hard to loosen back up when i tighten it up a little too much, and i bet the washer would really help it out.

@martinhawrylkiewicz2025

7 ай бұрын

I just got the iGaging squares 4" and 6" and noticed a very slight wobble from side to side of the ruler when fully locked in the base. They are both true square and the ruler didn't move up or down so it's fully locked that way... But side to side play is unacceptable to me.

I have a starrett 6" double square and my only complaint is that it does get out of square after a while and requires maintenance using a detailed file.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Oh that’s good to know. I haven’t used any bridge city tools but have heard they are fantastic. I’ll have to keep my eye out if my square goes out quicker than expected.

Doesn't the blade test require that the wood edge being straight?

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I didn’t explicitly call it out but I show it briefly at around 5:17 I checked the wood with a starrett straight edge and it was within 1 thousandth of an inch deviation on straightness. This is probably the weakest of my tests, but I did repeat it multiple times and found similar results each time.

It’s good to know Starrett quality is back but I’d only be a buyer if I actually hand inspect each item not blindly order. Twenty years ago I bought a machinist square set and if it was heavier at least it would be a good doorstop. Twenty five years ago I purchased ten 6” dial calipers because it actually saved me money to tell my crew to take their old ones home. Within a week all the new calipers failed. They were replaced with Mitutoyo and they lasted. It’ll be a while before I blindly trust Starrett again. I really wanted to buy American.

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

I can see that, especially with the price. I bought a Mitutoyo caliper because I just trust those and so far in my professional life Mitutoyo has never let me down. I wish I had the same unconditional confidence in Starrett. One nice thing if you can spring for it, if you buy from McMaster-Carr you can get almost all the Starrett stuff certified.

Yeah, this is a pretty good summary of the lower end of pro-level tools, and the higher end, for woodworkers. If you have the money, Starrett/Woodpecker/Incra and a few others are the gold standard, and will not disappoint. iGaging is in that sweet spot where you will get enough accuracy for most things that you will never notice, and even a professional woodworker will be fine with an igaging for most things. I know a true fine furniture maker who uses iGaging for most things because he is old school and just can't believe anyone would pay the kind of prices Starett and Woodpecker charge. If a guy who is making chairs that sell for well over $2,000+ can use an iGaging, then the rest of us will be fine with saving a bit of money.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment. This was super thought out and I appreciate your time. I completely agree that the accuracy of the iGaging is perfectly sufficient for woodworking and really those premium tools are nice to have but not necessary.

Like a lot of people budget is always a factor. There are however, certain tools you use every time you build with wood and a Starrett square is the best for 2 consistent reasons in every review and comparison. These two areas are accuracy and smoothness or feel. While the igaging is ok for the price the square is a tool worth spending for premium. While a measuring tape doesn't need to be accurate. If you use the same tape to measure throughout a project then the actual size of a component will be the same even if the tape is off. Just a personal observation from someone who has gone down the road of cheaper square to expensive.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I think this is one of those classic buy once cry once tools, and I totally agree this is one you touch pretty much use every time you are in the shop.

Measured my 4 inch I gauging square length and it was 4.020.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Good to get a couple of more measurements on these the see how consistent they are.

Kinex are astoundingly high quality for the money. The squarness of them is just ridiculous.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I do love me some knex!

I have that same square from Moore & Wright and it was puchased from a NOS Ebay listing. Mine was dead nuts; checked with a B Granite square on a Grade A plate. I would have sent it back for a refund. LIke Starrett, M&W is a good vendor of precision tools. They have been around a long time. Part of the Bower Group today.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks that is some really good info on M&W. I’ll have to keep my eye out for some nice deals like you. I really need to get me a reference granite plate for my home shop, makes me feel a bit dirty trying to get a good feel on things without one.

@terrymoorecnc2500

2 жыл бұрын

@@BuildItMakeIt If you use it all the time they are worth it. Shars has great prices on granite plates and stands. I'm a Mitutoyo dealer for their Capital Equipment as well as a Machine tool dealer for several CNC lines and for general shop use a B grade plate is all you will need.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thats awesome you are a Mitutoyo dealer! I'll have to check out Shars. For my day job we have Mitutoyo measuring tools and Starrett surface plates are all over the place. It makes me really want that stuff for my shop. I'll have to check out Shars and see about getting a B grade plate. I know they aren't too much, I just need to bite the bullet.

You have a laboratory?

@BuildItMakeIt

4 ай бұрын

For my day job I have a lab. Well, the company has a lab, I use it.

They're not set squares by the way any of the squares

Starrett made in the USA for over 100 years. iGaging made under contract in china. Slick packaging does not a precision tool make.

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

I agree, the precision of the Starrett is fantastic. (I am actually a sucker for their cool paper boxes too, probably nostalgia from my machine shop days)

I disagree with 2 of your iGaging qualms. Also, as easy as it is to square on up, iGaging would have to be my go to,

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

Yeah if people are ok squaring them up then the iGaging is nice because then out of the box precision isn't really important. Thanks!

Odd that the clarity of the markings on the blades didn't figure?!

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

That’s a good point. I probably should have compared that. I feel like I could see both fine so it didn’t even cross my mind.

For less than 1/4 the price igaging is a no brainer. Not square? Takes minutes to correct any square, cheap or premium. Used the same combination for a whole working life in woodworking. Dropped my square numerous times and when it needed a needle file brought it back to perfect in couple of minutes. Forget the line and flip technique. Just invest in one high quality engineers square and use that for nothing other checking your working tools.

@BuildItMakeIt

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, I agree the price and the igaging is hard to beat. The line and flip technique is pretty standard and is nice if you don't have a calibrated engineers square, but those are supply handy to have around as well. Thanks!

I ordered the layout square set - the larger 12 inch square was off by over 1/8 of an inch. Totally unbelievable after paying 135 CAD for the set. Treid calling dealing with thier customer service but they spoke very poor English/Chinese. I wouldn't recomend this product or company

Sorry, but your caliper must be calibrated or inspected before using it to ensure accuracy.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I agree that I can't trust the accuracy of the calipers but the precision is within 1 thousands of an inch and can be verified. When doing a comparison of the square's deviation I think it is ok to use them for the comparison. When I measured the length of the blades to see how close to 4 inches, I agree I can't verify the error on these calipers, the iGaging could have been 4 inches and the starret was long. I do think because of the precision of the calipers that I was correct in saying the edge of the iGaging is not the same length on both sides while the Starrett was.

But if you turn the set squares facing each other they become a U that could work but then it's a dark square 😭

/ten thousandths , not thousandths

@felixf5211

4 ай бұрын

We refer to .0001 as a tenth.

The demonstration of pulling the scale back and forth as shown is definitely the wrong thing to do in the adjustment of the scale. The scale is resting on two very small gauge pads casted and ground square to the body. With this type of tool the proper way to ajust the scale is to loosen the nut a few turns then push the nut towards the scale till it bottoms out and while holding thi, this releases the scale away from the 2 gauge pads of the square. No move the scale to its near desited position. Noe releas the nut and make your final adjustment. Noe lock it down. If you continue to just loosen that and drag the scale back and forth eventually wear these pads unevenly and your combination Square will become out of Square. Lastly, the square should be wiped down with a light oil often. Having precision tools requires knowing how to properly use and maintain your precision tool correctly. Abused will always lead to some issues regarding how minor the abuse seems to be.

@BuildItMakeIt

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the feedback good to know about those pads.

I think iGauging is perfectly fine, or exceeds any requirements for woodworking, while the Starrett should be used by machininists over the iGauging. I have both, never really bothered to check how much difference there is, but I find that I use the iGauging almost exclusively as it's just much less dear of an equipment to replace. If it goes, I am not mad about it LOL. The cost does have its plus as long as the function is sufficient.

@BuildItMakeIt

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree when I am mostly banging around in the shop I use the iGuaging. Now that I have been using them for a while I find even for machinist stuff I don't use the Starrett as much but I use a fixed square for when the square really matters.

@MintStiles

Жыл бұрын

@@BuildItMakeIt for sure, when I check for square, it's just my 4" unmarked lee valley engineer square. 15-20 bucks and always bang on.

You’re better off buying a P.E.C tools double square. They’re made in the USA and priced about half of a starrett.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for chiming in! I've been hearing a lot about the PEC tools and people seem to really like them. I'll check them out in the future.

@michaelshelnutt3534

Жыл бұрын

They seem to be out of stock a lot

If you use them often your squares are never going back in that dumb case.

@BuildItMakeIt

6 ай бұрын

That is true. Actually I did cut off the top and put the bottom in a shallow drawer. They make it back…10% of the time. Maybe….

Checking the accuracy of double square using your way isn't reliable I think. You need to compare them with machinist square. Thank you.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

I think this way is still valid by using the straight edge, but certainly not as good as having a reference plate and calibrated machinist square. I have some machinist squares and two are more out of square than both of these 😂 I need a metrology department like when I was at CERN, there you just sent your tools out and they sent them back super quick fixed or at least characterized so you know.

@felixf5211

4 ай бұрын

@@BuildItMakeIt Or, you could learn some basic metrology and not look so silly on YT. Sure, takes more effort than posting an ignorant video aimed at folks who can't tell the difference.

Rub some paraffin wax along the blade to improve the slide action.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, that's a great idea to help it out slide smoother, and also not to get all gummy.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned about making a push stick or push shoe than worrying about my square being out .008 of an inch. When I saw that hand 2" from the spinning blade of a table saw I stopped watching.

@BuildItMakeIt

11 ай бұрын

Yep, it is certainly safer to use a push stick/shoe is most situations. Take care.

Hey I have had some interest in a suggestion on a square that is in-between the Starrett and the iGaging. Reading through the comments on Joe Winter's lumberjocks reviews I saw the PEC mentioned amzn.to/2UMU0RJ, and saw some other pretty good reviews on it. Anyone used this square and could chime in? Its USA made, 64ths, and tempered blade. In retrospect I probably should have added something in that price range to this review to have rounded it out.

@skippy5311

2 жыл бұрын

I have a 12" PEC Combination Square as well as a 12" Starrett Combination and 4" Starrett Double square. Based on my limited experience, I would say that the PEC is good in blade precision and squareness, decent in the casting and milling, but the knurled nob and spring have a cheaper feel to them, which is unfortunate. The action is not quite as smooth as the Starrett, but the PEC products are priced fairly. I applaud PEC for making their products in the USA, which is not easy to justify these days. There is also a vendor (Harry Epstein Co.) that sells blemished PEC squares at an even better price.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

@@skippy5311 I’m glad to hear some practical usage of someone with the PEC square. Also that is some really good info on getting a blemished one. Thanks!

Here's my review of the iGaging Double Squares, on Lumberjocks: www.lumberjocks.com/reviews/12128 TL; DR: They're cheap for a reason. Not terrible, but spend a few more bucks for a more enjoyable experience.

@BuildItMakeIt

2 жыл бұрын

Joel, thanks for your comment and I read though your review and I agree if you can afford it then getting a better tool is totally justified in this case. I don't think the iGaging is a "hidden gem" of a square for the money, although I do think it is worth what you pay for it. If you are super low on cash and need a square you could do worse, but man is that Starrett wonderful.