What I really love about this episode is the internal consistency. Once you have context for the Tamarian speech, you understand what they're saying in the first act. Tamarian Captain (to Picard): Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. "We know that we are very different from you, but we wish to live in peace, perhaps become friends." Tamarian First Officer (laughing): Shaka when the walls fell! Mirab, his sails unfurled. "We're wasting time on these idiots. We have better things to be doing elsewhere." Tamarian Captain: Temarc! The river Temarc. IN WINTER. "When I want your opinion, I'll feed it to you."

I also used to think the Tamarians' language as ridiculous, but, and this might blow your mind, after watching some video game streams I noticed that the chat is talking exactly like the guys in Darmok! "MunkerW, pupu, F," are some things they would say, and I was like "wtf is this some weird another language?" Without having a frame of reference it's complete gibberish, just like the Tamarians.

@Wasabiofip

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah the Tamarians talk in memes, which is where our language is also heading

@user-do2ev2hr7h

2 жыл бұрын

It would work, but it would still be a very limiting form of verbal communication as its inherently limited to a pre-defined set of references as opposed to more standard grammatical construction where words can be combined in new and flexible ways to convey novel ideas. It would be like trying to compose a letter with nothing but auto suggestions.

@kev3d

2 жыл бұрын

To use a metaphor, you might not have to know the precise origin of the metaphor, but there would still be a need for an underlying understanding of the words and syntax used in the metaphor. For example "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Even if the listener didn't quite understand the precise meaning, they would still have to understand horse, water, drink, lead etc. and the underlying syntax which glues it all together. "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra." might seem like gibberish, but there's still an underlying grammar and logical word order (logical according to most western languages anyway. Latin relies on word ending "declensions" rather than strict word order). Note that it isn't "Darmok, Jalad, Tanagra, and at." Even if in gaming we hear "WTF dude, you're over there camping and I got zerged! You always ghost when I wanna rush!" there is still a bunch of grammatical stuff happening for the sentences to make sense, even if the references are unclear to the uninitiated. Presumably the universal translator can pick out the verbs, adjectives, conjunctions, nouns etc. even if it doesn't understand the meaning of the metaphors. That would mean there is a regular, predictable, and (at least sometime) precise baseline of words and their meaning. Imagine building a Tamarians spacecraft "How high should the ceilings be in the main cabin?" "Over the ocean, the sail fell wide." "What's the energy output of the main engine?" "Cup filled for no one, the day has turned". That might be the way they speak, but unless there is a precise meaning to those metaphors (2.5 meters, 4,000,000 gigawatts or whatever) then it would be impossible to build anything exact enough to fly in space.

@sahtiryyppy

2 жыл бұрын

@@kev3d Oh I totally agree, it's just that online culture made the Tamarians seem a little less outlandish, to me at least.

@user-do2ev2hr7h

2 жыл бұрын

@@kev3d The best theory I've seen is that there might be some sort of written or symbol based component that is better able to communicate those sorts of complex ideals, but when you really think about it, this is one of those sci-fi ideas that seems cool but wouldn't really work in reality, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

It's one of my favorite episodes. My favorite part is Picard telling the story of Gilgamesh.

@ThePeacemaker848

2 жыл бұрын

Years later in university it inspired me to write a paper on Gilgamesh. I got an A.

Behind the scenes of the first contact with the Tamarians “They Don’t understand us” “Did you try speaking the same language but louder?” “Yes” “Well I’m all out of Ideas”

@MLBeaton

2 жыл бұрын

Did you try slowing down random words? The more complex the better! So long as we repeat it over and over louder and slower each time!

Every critical thing that Robert said is absolutely true; but Paul Winfield really brings a lot to the table. He's single-handedly made this a classic episode in my opinion.

Also the latest episode of lower decks apparently establishes these guys can communicate normally to us if they are taught how too. Since a tameram made it into star fleet.

@tylerstears4445

2 жыл бұрын

Did you like his character? I did however brief it was, I think he will have some good development.

@Mehwhatevr

2 жыл бұрын

I mean they should be able to. to speak their analogies, they have all of the necessary grammar and words. they just have to learn to create new metaphors. instead of saying whatever their names are at tenagra. he could have just said, Picard and whatever his name is on this planet. Picard and X fight a beast. Picard and X become friends. He could have done that. UNLESS, what we're hearing is the universal translator and not them. "Y and Z at Tenagra" is one word or inseperable sentence in their language.

@marshallhuffer4713

2 жыл бұрын

It was established in the episode that the universal translator could now largely translate their metaphorical language, though some metaphors were still translated literally.

@thewewguy8t88

2 жыл бұрын

@@marshallhuffer4713 I dont rember that part and I mean I am sure will see more of him it's just Lower decks really does show how kind of ridiculous the star trek universe is or can be lol( a good example is that for some reason the paclids are now a serious threat)

@spencersholden

Жыл бұрын

The universal translation still messes up some time.

The monster uses stealth and can turn invisible - but also likes to roar to give away its position, it also never attacks at night because it needs its sleep.

DiCaprio, his glass raised

I like this episode. I agree with some of your criticisms. the one I don't agree with this the criticism of them speaking louder and slower. I know it's silly, but that's what people actually do. I've been living in a country that doesn't speak English, and I tell them I don't speak their language (in their language). So what do they do? they speak louder and maybe slower. lol. so I interrupt them and tell them with body language, and their language, that I don't speak their language. so what do they do? they speak louder and slower. repeat this 6-10 times within the next minute until they finally give up. lol. I know it's dumb, but I think it's hard for people not to do this when they've never been in a situation where the other person can't understand them. and with the Universal Translator, I doubt they had ever been in this situation before.

@dycedargselderbrother5353

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. That's probably why it's so frustrating. It's the 24th century. We have universal translators, advanced computer AI in the ship's computer, advanced AI in an android, and a empath yet we're still yelling.

Fun fact apprently the universal translator does work both ways. That being said it may or not be an implant in the ear. This both based upon an episode of Voyager and deep space 9 which establishes these 2 things.

@DissociatedWomenIncorporated

2 жыл бұрын

It may just be the Ferengi version that’s an ear implant. They do have extra room to store things in there!

@LudenNine

2 жыл бұрын

@@DissociatedWomenIncorporated Gross!

This episode always makes me think back to Season 2’s “Loud as a Whisper”. Where is Data speed-reading all of Tamarian mythology, while simultaneously playing back the communication attempts over the last several years? More importantly, you have a Klingon warrior who’s well-read in his own mythology right there on the bridge, who could fill in the emotional context rather than Troi saying “I don’t know”. Give Worf the knife, and let him, in classic Klingon Opera style, respond to the Tamarians. The issue with the show, even after Roddenberry was too sick to controlling everything day to day, is that it’s too much a Picard, Riker, and Data show. “Nemesis”, with some major plot overhauls to make it a Worf/Geordi/Troi movie about the Romulans (the three who have the most Romulan experience) could significantly improve things. Instead, everything TNG is Picard, Riker, and Data.

Robert and Nick at KZread. 😂

I give this a pass because the idea is cool. I think some of the problem is it’s a conundrum that’s mostly going to be resolved through talking and study, which wasn’t exciting enough for tv so they had to make it more dramatic with shooting and danger. The first time I saw that monster I was shocked at how lame it was. The Gorn was more convincing than that thing, at least it had physical presence. Picard looks like he’s fighting a thin air. It’s just silly and conveys no sense of threat.

One of my favorites probably because it was so memorable. Things like the goofiness of the pred alien was absent from my mind, now that I see it again I'm like "wow, I don't remember it looking like that at all" This and "Four Lights" reference used to separate the true nerds from the chaff when 'nerding the fuck out' back in the day..

@arsbadmojo

2 жыл бұрын

Ha! So true! "There. Are. FOUR! Lights!"

@pseudotasuki

2 жыл бұрын

Red Letter Media have the monster costume's mask and it's even worse than you can imagine. I don't know if they decided to apply that visual effect in an attempt to hide how awful it is, or if they half-assed the costume in the assumption that the visual effect would make it look good. Either way… yikes.

7:15 You will never have the ability to tell a story like this with 40 minutes. So you need to give them some slack.

Ahh finally my FAV TNG episode... Me and my grade 3 friend still yell out a "Shaka... the walls fell!" While gaming!

@Bringmeoneofthosechickens

11 ай бұрын

You liked this better than cause and effect?

This is one of my favorite episodes of TNG. Its one of key strengths of this series to tackle difficult subjects and prejudice.

This elisode is definitely a top 10 TNG for me.

I just binged your entire run of Star Trek TNG videos. Can’t wait for the next one

The point of the episode, Darmok, is not about learning to communicate, it's about having patience; especially with people who may be difficult or novitiate. Picard met an alien captain who had more patience than he did and Picard's lack of patience got the alien captain killed, unnecessarily. At the end of the episode Picard is confronted by Riker who notices he is reading a book about the Homeric Hymns. Picard tells Riker that being more familiar with "our own mythology" may help us relate to alien civilizations. The exchange between Picard and Riker is an allusion to the fact that technology, efficiency and progress does not make someone a better person. At the close, it is clear that Picard is regretful and saddened by his actions and views the encounter as a blunder. The episode helps to establish that Picard is not perfect and is still learning new ways to be a better diplomat and liaison.

The universal translator does work both ways. They go over this when they explain the universal translator in the original series.

Ahhh, I've been waiting for this one.. The power ranger part made me snort.

If I wanted to cite a metaphor for a futile situation where a numerous force shows hubris I would use Paul Winfield's line from Terminator: "You're safe. There are thirty cops in this building."

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean!!!!!

I almost pissed my pants at that hard cutaway to Power Rangers audio. Well done gentlemen.

>"space biker" >original gordon freeman i'm dead

I agree with both of your ratings :) B+ for enjoyability. It's fun to watch! C- for all the problem things you guys listed. ...like not explaining the predator alien. Any episode that sparks a memorable quote is a good episode. My friends and I would joke at work when trying to explain something complicated but the other person didn't understand, we'd just say louder and slowly "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra".

I always appreciated the risk they took with Picard communicating with the other ship in their language. The dialog was comprehensible but only if the audience was paying attention. If someone tuned in part way through or was distracted, it probably wouldn't have made sense and would have lost impact.

Even today, when I have reason to think of Story of GIlgamesh, I think of this STNG Episode. "Darkmok and Galad at Tanagra." Gibberish, but that was the point, and it was so important to have this basic understanding Paul Winfield's character risked his life.. Sometimes you need to be ultra-creative, to communicate in a completely different language. The only story comparable is Arrival, as Nick mentioned.

Probably my second favorite episode in ALL of Trek, behind Chain of Command I & II and just above The House of Quark from DS9.

I am so pissed that Picard's jacket didn't have a regular appearance.

i speak to my rat terrier like that and he understands

I can imagine CODING with these guys... Hours of code per function...

@RichGilly

2 жыл бұрын

var1 hs_rms_opn; shaka_w_f; darmok+gilad=>tenagra;

@MLBeaton

2 жыл бұрын

@@RichGilly HA google is offering me translations on this... IRONY

Reverse Angle, when the walls fell.

Robert and Nick with Darmok on KZread. Kadir beneath Mo Moteh. Shaka, when the walls fell. Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel. Arnock, on the night of his joining.

Great review! I loved the episode and appreciate the fresh feedback either way

I agree with Nick. I also give it a B+. Whenever I watch this, I try to think of what the other Tamarians are saying. I think it is kind of interesting to sit and try to figure that out every time this episode comes on. I should point out that DARMOK is KOMRAD spelled backwards. I don't know if that was ever referenced by anyone else, but the fact is that COMRAD starts with a C and not a K.

How is the unsuccessfully transported Picard not reduced to a heap of quivering jelly like the poor fellows who were killed by the transporter when it malfunctioned in the first ST film ? Or are transporter malfunctions no longer deadly ?

@canadiannomad2330

5 ай бұрын

Transporter malfunctions were only deadly if you wore a red shirt. Later the systems were upgraded to only be deadly if you don't have more than a full pip.

@jamesmc04

5 ай бұрын

@@canadiannomad2330 That explains a lot. Thanks.

A good idea, executed in the dumbest way possible. Both parties acted like obnoxious tourists banging their heads against a language barrier, rather than working patiently and cooperatively to overcome it. We only get a glimmer of greatness when Picard and the dying alien captain exchange stories over their campfire. Another example of this idea done far better is Hell in the Pacific (1968). Plus it stars Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune!

Funny you felt Arrival (a good film based on a discredited theory) handled this premise better. I know people who didn't get that movie and hated it. Here, I enjoyed the puzzle presented by a people who could only respond to life through the stories of their own mythology. Looking back on the episode.. "In my experience, communication is a matter of patience.. imagination. I would like to believe that these are qualities that we have in sufficient measure," sounds like optimism, not arrogance. The Tamarian Captain's dedication to connecting with another culture seemed a truly unique take on "first contact." Very good episode.

I remember watching this episode while in college. We were covering Gilgamesh at the time in my humanities course and talked about this episode in class. I wonder if Picard and the other captain did have intimate relations on the planet, what would be the proper phrase in the Tamarian language?

How would a race that communicates in such a ridiculous way cope with mundane phrases such as "pass the salt", "what time is it?" or "we've run out of toilet paper". Or do they have an historical reference for everything like "Darmok with a brown arse".

This is easily a top five episode for me. I always loved that they spoke in memes.

Oh this is one of my favorite episodes! So good!

How would the Tamarians say "The first derivative of cosine is negative sin?

Actually, every word picard said in the end in the Tamarian language had already been mentioned previous in the episode. I think it was very well executed. And you at the audience would understand exactly what he is saying.

One of my favorite episodes if not my very favorite TNG episodes.

Even today I can crudely communicate with anyone who doesn't speak the same language by using a computer translator.

This episode was referenced by the latest episode of lower-decks (2x02)

When this episode first came out a friend and I went around for weeks talking like this. Referencing all kinds of ludicrous stuff. Still to this day can do it.

I know people bring up that they essentially just use memes to communicate which is cute. But we still have actual words we need to use, and would especially be necessary on a Starship. How do you tell the helmsperson "go to warp 5" "raise shields" "depolarize the deflector disc" etc in meme speak? Its nitpicky, the core message of understanding someone else is good, but lets not pretend their language isnt nonsense.

I love this episode. The linguistics are so interesting even though there are holes.

Not only they seem pretty stupid it's a wonder they aren't at war with half the galaxy

I'm surprised the Enterprise didn't have some kind of linguistics expert. Come to think of it TNG completely lacked any kind of communications officer. in TOS Lt. Uhura was not only the ships communications officer but she herself was a polyglot, she spoke and understood 12 languages. She was an essential officer of the ship even with the universal translator.

Favorite Star Trek TNG Episodes: From most Favorite to least favorite: 4. Darmok: While the universal translator is working fine, the syntax of the language has brought continuous hurdles in bringing the Tamarians into the Federation. This episode has some of the most “Roddenberry” moments in this new series. We have allusions to the Arena episode of the original series, where the Gorn Captain and Kirk had a fight that was supposed to be to the death. Only here, this time, the refusal to fight is immediately dealt with and this leads us into the concept of communication, and soon Picard is able to formulate a primer in his head as how to approach the way his new friend speaks.

So... The episode starts off with the Enterprise meeting the Tamarian ship for a second contact attempt.. Um.. who scheduled this meeting and how?

@mintybiscuits941

Жыл бұрын

The Tamarian ship was sending signals towards Federation space, so they deduced that they wanted to meet.

How is any foreign race supposed to know what the heck the Tammarians are talking about?

A part of me does wish the episode focused on the Tamarians themselves appearing mysteriously attempting to communicate. I'd rather have Tamarian technology be part of the mystery. Having them just appear in a generic starship and make Picard battle a monster was a harder sell.

A true universal language is just sights and sounds (smells touch and other senses). You dont actually store knowledge in your brain in english or chinese or whatever. You store them as sensory input and simply use speech as a way to communicate those. In a rough way. Something can be communicated and other not. Try to describe something like a cherry to someone who has never tasted it. But you can describe what it looks like easily. That is where any sort of communication with another race will start. And it wont be that hard to have basic communication through images first assuming they have eyes. ALL they had to do was draw a picture of two people shaking hands or otherwise cooperating. Stick figures would have been better than what they were trying.

Took 32 minutes until someone drew a picture! And why is Riker still so scared?! The two have been close together for many hours. It would be unlikely to think that they are fighting the whole time. They know that a creature attacked and injured the Tamarian but not Picard, yet they remain close together. Doesn't sound at all like a situation that Picard is in danger.

What are reverse angle’s 10 highest rated TNG episodes and the lowest rated. Have they given any episodes two Fs?

I liked the episode just not a B+...B-...because it was one of those I don't understand the other species episodes so it dragged on in spots with the alien captain.

RedLetterMedia has the head prop of the alien

@joedick6358

Жыл бұрын

They have a non original, a fake basically that's why he throws it around like a toy on set...u believed he'd had the real one and damagaged it on purpose

“Cool flex Picard!” Lol! 😎 💪 When someone doesn’t understand you. Say it louder! Lol Yeah this is one of those plots they recycle for Enterprise. On one hand I feel it was handled better on that show than TNG. But that is much more like Enemy Mine. So it’s literally a wash. Thanks guys!

@halfsourlizard9319

Жыл бұрын

Saying things louder, slower, and more agro is basically what I've seen every English speaker do when they're somewhere that people don't speak English ...

Id love to see yall review the Orville. It isnt perfect, but it handles the science and crew actions MUCH better than tng

Been waiting for this episode since I started watching. Also, it reminds me of this story "A Box of Crayons", especially with the mention that they could have used other methods to communicate: kzread.info/dash/bejne/fIqEsqikj8K8YbA.html

Shaka, When his underpants Fell!

I completely agree with Nick B+. Watching this episode opened my eyes to the power of language. I realized that language can be used in ways that I never would have imagined, and that it can be used to communicate in ways that transcend our own understanding. Thank you guys for your sense of humor.🫡👍

So disappointing. Don't need to fire phasers in every episode. Picard should have been able to communicate much faster and then they could go on to learn about each other, have tensions, misunderstandings, then laugh, share food, trade some goods and arrange a future meeting. The federation wasn't summoned just to have a brief encounter.

excited to find this channel, can't wait to see what other episodes you've covered! nice editing

STNG basically invented meme culture in this episode.

riker and troi in the bath if you know what i mean

@ThePeacemaker848

2 жыл бұрын

Troi, her legs wide!

@masere

2 жыл бұрын

Riker, his face smooth.

"I like the idea but feel it's been handled better in other places" Then goes on to reference a 47 million dollar movie and book. Yeah, a tv show that only has a week to film and changing writing team doesn't do it as well. The understanding of the restrictions of the tv show at the time it was aired and produced feels lost in these reviews.

Definite A

C- not my favorite. I like the concept, but it could have been executed better. Instead of speaking in metaphors and stories, the Tamarins could have just had an incomprehensible language that the universal translators couldn't handle. Slowly over the episode, the crew is forced to learn their language the old fashioned way. Add some suspense with something gone wrong on the Tamarin ship and the Enterprise can help, but only if they can fully communicate. The clock is ticking and they need to learn the language faster. This episode for me... Shaka, when the walls fell.

Ah, the most highly overrated episode of TNG. I'm glad you're past it now.

You are fairly unforgiving for a show going on years old. Your great points though will help towards perfection.

bro that movie arrival is so horrible dont even mention that schlock, i agree about most of your criticisms though, this episode is overrated a bit, still solid though

Whenever you guys don't get it, you say "it's stooopid."

I hate that Picard's jacket so much! Whose idea was it to put him in this half leather half suede ugly looking thing, not to mention it's not just in this episode... was it supposed to make him look more laid back or badass? To me it looks ridiculous:) Anyways, not a bad episode but I personally never enjoyed it as much as so many other fans, I wouldn't go all the way to C- like Robert, to me it's a B/B-

@gcooper642

2 жыл бұрын

But suede was all the range in 1992!

@ondrejnovotny3273

2 жыл бұрын

@@gcooper642 I guess it becomes fashionable again in 2365 :)

@NerdilyDone

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. It's pretty awkward.

This was so ANNOYING! What does anyone do when they want to talk to someone without a common VERBAL language?! You use gestures and pictures! All Picard and Riker did was talk to them. Start with an image of war and one of peace and have everyone stand on the side of peace. Extremely simple! War: A sword fight. Peace: swords on the ground, sitting at a table with a drink in hand. Probably universal. Why is Riker using a threatening tone when they can see that Picard is safe?! (I'm only nine minutes in. Maybe it improves.) Now the Tamarian has a fire and is relaxing beside it. Why wouldn't Picard approach and with small movements, ask to sit down. or just sit down and join him by the fire. Then start learning words for things and actions.

Robert, you fool.

I haven’t heard your ratings yet as writing this.. D+ at best for me. TOS vibes. Trash. Edit: you gave it an A?! 😳 you shoot down far superior episodes to this ! Dear me..

Enemy mine was awesome! Way better than this episode

@ThePeacemaker848

2 жыл бұрын

The awesomeness of Enemy Mine is why so many sci-fi shows make so many episodes inspired from it.

What a dumb episode. F. There's no way for people to talk to the Tamarians without downloading their whole lore library. Picard used his main character powers to learn it all.

THEE WORST EPISODE. I want to punch myself in the face when I try to watch it. This is up there with "Tuvix".

@Reggie1408

2 жыл бұрын

"Tuvix" is great!

@REPORTEVERYLIBERALCOMMENT

2 жыл бұрын

@@Reggie1408 The entire internet would disagree. That's why you like it.

@wewlad8697

2 жыл бұрын

@@REPORTEVERYLIBERALCOMMENT Tuvix is fine, Enterprise does the concept much better in Similitude though

@REPORTEVERYLIBERALCOMMENT

2 жыл бұрын

@@wewlad8697 Tuvix as a character is an unholy abomination that literally gets murdered for being such a toxic character. With extreme prejudice. I'll anchor my opinion to that most epic ending.

@NerdilyDone

2 жыл бұрын

While I too dislike this episode, it's nowhere near that bad. Come now.

Horrible review. This is universally considered among the best (Top 3) episodes.

I *HATE* this episode! F- - -