I remember as a kid watching this episode and being very much on the crew's side on the kid's fate. Watching it now that I am a step-father I was actively angry that the crew was trying to keep him from his father who he obviously cares about.

I thought this episode was very odd for its lack of Worf. Seriously, he should have absolutely been an advocate for the kid. “My parents are of Earth. Should I have been removed from them and kept with my people, with no family but distant grandsires?”

Have to disagree.. When a person has been brainwashed and mentally abused, it is not appropriate to let them make decisions they probably cant unbiasedly. The kidnapper, murderer of the child's parents, giving him an option after the brainwashing doesnt make him honorable..nor it an actaul choice.. Grooming is wrong no matter why its done

@rmsgrey

5 жыл бұрын

Figure out a way to raise a child without embedding cultural biases and your point begins to have merit. Otherwise you're arguing that it's not appropriate to let anyone make any decisions because everyone is brainwashed by the culture that raises them. It's also worth considering what the alternatives are here - what would have happened to the kid otherwise?

@videogenics86

5 жыл бұрын

I have to take issue with your last statement. We groom our own children to be part of our society. My boy was born in the Philippines but beyond the food mama cooks for him he is the all American boy. :)

@ieatvirgins

5 жыл бұрын

This is extremely obvious, I can't believe nobody commented on how obviously brainwashed he is. He was *kidnapped* as a child and raised by the people who killed his parents. No shit he wants to live with the man who raised him. It doesn't change that he had no legal excuse to take the kid, and their entire relationship was illegitimate. Try any of this on Earth and you definitely wouldn't keep custody, to say nothing of jail time.

The Federation does seem to have a long history of settling planets without checking for existing claims or potential future issues. The Gorn were the first of many examples, that mess with the Cardassians was another.

The Federation are big on Appeasement 😉. Very reminiscent of pre-WWII Britain.

@PR--un4ub

2 жыл бұрын

What's with the wink? Be clear.

Oh, one other thing...I bet Picard had an absolutely lovely conversation with the Admiral who was so excited her GRANDSON was coming home. "What do you mean he's NOT coming home, Captain?" It's would be a wonder if she didn't try to bust him down to...civilian over this. On a more serious note I have to wonder if Jono kept in contact with his human family after finding out about them. The possibility isn't even mentioned in the episode.

@paulscott2037

5 жыл бұрын

It is an issue that I have with this episode. They make it very black and white. Human or Tallerian. But given how understanding Jono's "father" appears to be and how he lets him make his choice, why isn't the option there to say "I'm not ready to leave everything I know... But I would like to get to know the family of my real parents." And you can even have Jono point out that he can be a potential bridge between the two cultures not now but when he is ready and when he has learnt more.

@videogenics86

5 жыл бұрын

@@paulscott2037 I know, maybe STO might do something with him someday.

Captain Endar was played by Sherman Howard, who also played T'Greth on VOY "Prophecy", Syvar on DS9 "Shakaar" and, most significantly, Bub on George A. Romero's "Day Of The Dead"

Yes ! Interesting use of the “Gilligan Cut”

The title sequence is a sequence of events. It shows the evolution of the solar system from its birth to the event of humans traveling among the stars. The planet with the rings is an early Earth (which was at a certain early time of its history being pummeled by meteoroids, asteroids, comets, which makes the existence of a ring system believable). The transition from early Earth to the Enterprise by using the rings of early Earth is a bit jarring, maybe, but it makes sense when you know that the planet is Earth, about 4 billion years ago.

Mem-summary: The Enterprise crew discovers a young Human boy that is raised by aliens who killed his parents. -> human kid is raised by aliens with warrior-culture, Picard wants to re-integrate the kid. Pfff...

I agree it was weird how (until the end of the episode) everyone assumed the best thing would be to return him to the Federation, without even considering the alternative. I also didn't like how quickly Picard overlooked the attempt on his life as if it was no big deal. Jono had just stabbed him in the abdomen with a dagger with considerable force! He wouldn't be an expert on human amatomy, so it was pure luck that Picard wasn't killed. I feel like the writers backed themselves into a corner there unnecessarily. It could easily have been something else (a suicide attempt, for example) which wouldn't render Picard's goodwill towards him thereafter so hard to believe.

The Telarians are entirely forgettable. This episode upholds the idea that the Federation has been engaged in another war action against a vastly technologically inferior species and wasn’t completely outclassing them. And that’s never referenced again. Similar to the Cardassian border wars (mentioned repeatedly, but established that Cardassian technology is clearly inferior), or the Tzenkethi. Almost remember nds me of the Glob Flies from the Outrageous Okna from Atlec and Straleb. How is Starfleet vulnerable to these people? The Telarians use the Sheridan maneuver. Made me smile a little bit.

I think the long term Federation political stance is maintaining a good public image at all cost, they know they're too big to fail at this point, so they can endure using the minimal force in all conflicts just to point out in future negotiations "see how little force we use, we're not violent or have innocent blood on our hands, make peace with us". Maybe that does work over a period of time to sacrifice for that reputation alone that gets you all kinds of diplomatic points. Until you meet someone who is too big to deal with (B & D).

I've always wondered where the Tallerians stood during the Dominion War. If the galaxy map is to be believed they are pretty close to Cardassian space.

@subraxas

5 жыл бұрын

NONE of the existent ST galaxy maps are accurate and a lot of them contradict one another.

I hate commercials and I actually understand the point of inventing television was to create a new medium to sell ads. The point of TV shows was to keep you entertained between commercials. Which is why streaming service are quite popular. Unfortunately in Canada the broadcast regulator fouled that up and all we get is last seasons shows. That and HBO is unavailable at any price. Netflix has much less content in Canada, costs more and is last season. Which is another reason for VPN.

The stars in the rings have ALWAYS bothered me, and it’s hilarious you mentioned that.

The only thing which jumped out at me, when I first saw this, was that the kid was listening to something akin to heavy metal.

@anglicky69

4 жыл бұрын

and sadly, no one took that audio clip and expanded on it over the years. at least, not that i could find.

The Talarian technological inferiority to the UFP was, even when I first saw this episode, a blatant and strange gap in worldbuilding. I think I've always assumed that the UFP colonies under attack by the Talarians were far, far from the core UFP zone and only a few Starfleet vessels could defend them and the Talarians used quantity over quality to even be a threat.

Honestly I never bought that the Federation appease races like the Talarians. They may appease the Cardassians or the Romulans or even the Klingons but whether it's stated or not I believe that for minor races like the Talarians they do bring forward a treaty... but not before they make a massive blow against that race's fleet or military capability so that they have no choice but to sign a treaty.

@videogenics86

5 жыл бұрын

No, Lore is right. It is very much in character for the Federation to do this. There are reasons for this, first is that the Federation honestly doesn't feel that violence solves anything and they have proof of that with the Klingons who are probably the most violent culture in the setting. The mindset is, if we can get along with the KLINGONS we can get along with anyone. Second and more insidious, especially with a weaker power like the Talarians is an assumption that in the end they will be Federation members and there is no reason to have Federation personnel involved in wiping out the lesser powers military and have to address that bad blood in their induction to the Federation.

I wonder if this story could have worked if Jono had been adopted by a Cardassian instead of a Talarian. The introduction of the Cardassians was only 8 episodes away, they must already have been working on them at that point.

@SirMarshalHaig

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting point indeed, especially as we see mixed children in DS9. What I wondered is, how tf are the Romulans so trusting in a half human? I mean Sela was commander and in charge of a sensitive operation in the support of the Klingon civil war. The Cardassians have an issue with mixed race children as they left them all behind on Bajor, while the Romulans pretty much allowed one to rise the ranks as every other member of their societey, at least it looked to me that way.

I’m not a jeri Taylor fan. How hard would it have been to find someone long on character AND sci fi

@rmsgrey

5 жыл бұрын

...and willing to work for TNG budget, and in Roddenberry's shadow...

The show made a dilemma where there didn't need to be one. He didn't have to be taken from the home he wanted to stay at. All they had to do is say "it's fine if you don't want to live with your biological family. Here's your grandma's number, give her a call on subspace sometime". Seriously, both cultures were warp capable. He could easily have kept in touch with/caught up with his biological family without having to leave his adopted family behind. Visits would not be out of the question either.

I want to know the aftermath with the admiral. She’s told the kid is alive and will be coming home but then suddenly isn’t.

3:00 That planet is not Saturn. Nick :-)

I've always noticed the star thing. They start off fine, but after it zooms in on Saturn, it's the different stars. I think of Saturn as a screen transition to justify it, though it is very visually jarring once you notice it.

Oh yeah, I've been instructed to 'lunchin' the comment section..... I am kinda with Lore Reloaded that considering the Dominion, the Federation was really invasive in how they handled the Dominion early on, and I can totally understand how other minor powers, especially the more aggressively minded, can really get very pissed over by the way how the Federation acts. The only thing that made the Dominion the clear baddy is that they where pictured very early on as being aggressive, manipulative and very single minded on being the dominant power.

@paulscott2037

5 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I think this is something Discovery does really right from the start in that it shows what Klingons think of the Federation in that they believe they are trying to make the universe homogenous and that is a perfectly understandable concern for a lot of races.

@Jokie155

5 жыл бұрын

Building off the fears that the Klingons had back in Star Trek 6. (And 3 if you take Linkara's personal theories on Kruge's motivations as accurate). I can appreciate that.

I keep confusing this episode with the one where the kid thinks he's an android.

Funny you should mention having a human child raised on Qo’nos, I recommend the Novels “Valiant” and its sequel series of books the Stargazer series by Michael Jan Friedman. In these books there are a pair of identical twins, the Asmund sisters. They are human orphans who were taken in by a Klingon father who responded to the colony distress call, they were raised in a Klingon House as Klingon. They joined Starfleet, one sister becoming a helmsman and the other becoming a navigator..: to use a will smith MIB quote “the best of the best of the best sir... with honors!” I know, I know, this episode came first and the canon of the novels is always debatable but almost universally considered inferior to the series proper.... but Picard should have recognized the situation with Jono as similar to that of the Asmunds immediately and had a better handle on how to deal with it. I mean he was assigned to the Stargazer as a young second officer, a Lt.Cmdr, and only because the Captain was killed and the current first officer incapacitated (injured so badly he was rendered comatose) did he take over command in the middle of battle... he of course went on to command the Stargazer for 22 years. I stress this because that means he worked closely with the Asmunds for a significant portion of that time, got to know them pretty well. Their situation is quite similar to that of Jono in this episode. The child abuse part of the episode also reminds me of the pilot episode of King of the Hill, where a well meaning CPS case worker believes Bobby is being physically abused because by hank because he got a black eye. It happened at a little league game when bobby wasn’t paying attention and took a line drive to the face. The CPS worker goes so far as to remove bobby from the Hill residence and is so proud of it... until his supervisor asked him if he talked to “so and so” and he replied with “who’s that and why does it matter?” And the supervisor responds with “he’s the little league coach, did you ask him about the black eye?” “Oh crap! Uh... no.” Thanks for another rumination, always makes my Monday morning commute something to look forward to.

I actually noticed the rings of Saturn, I just assumed it was something people knew and I felt it was a result of the composing techniques at the time. This is actually one of my least favourite episodes as I think the kid comes across as a spoiled brat. But it does tie in to what you where saying about Worf and how Captain Endar is this kids practical farther. But I loved Voyager when it was on tv, watched it with my Dad, sadly that came at a cost of not seeing the Dominion war as they where on at the same time. So love Jeri Taylor for that.

The ending is very good, surprising and touching. The rest... not so much. Wooden acting, too, though I'm not sure it's the fault of the actors.

I noticed the Saturn thing and it irritates me every time. How did the creators miss that?!?

@tbk2010

5 жыл бұрын

I think this was introduced in the blu ray.

A propos of relatively nothing, thanks to the title I keep confusing this episode with the one where Troi briefly loses her empathic powers.

@john-evanbear8783

4 жыл бұрын

I believe that episode is called "The Loss".

The Federation doesn't want peace, they want order. Really just the appearance of order, they want everybody not fighting. Also The Federation, is so far up their own ass. They believe their culture is perfect and every race deep down wants to join the Federation. If they don't then they wrong or being brainwash, so they need to teach them. I would pay anything to read or watch a Star Trek and Warhammer 40K crossover, I would love to see an Imperium of Man fleet somehow appear in the Star Trek universe.

writers needed

I used to be more sympathetic towards Jono's position in it all because of SFDebris' take on it being a matter of what he wants to be, and the Federation swooping in and telling him no you can't be this. Then after reading all the comments, I've just concluded this is yet another episode with a horribly botched moral that doesn't know where it's going and has too many awful implications no matter how you look at it. Is this about the rights of the child? You can't even tell if he has the proper capacity to make that kind of decision because of vague implications of abuse. So is it about freeing a kid from abusive circumstances that he's been brainwashed into accepting? Well clearly not because Picard lets him stay with the goddamn alleged abusers. Is this about overcoming cultural differences? The culture is an absolute farce and is entirely forgettable, so overcoming the differences means nothing because you don't make friendly with horrible ideals and behaviour. If the only solid, definable point of the episode is to annoy the viewer, not to provoke rational thought and discussion (this contributes nothing in the rational sense), or provide entertainment, or comfort, or relief, or intrigue, then quite frankly it's a write-off and nothing more has to be said. And you know what? The Trek writers DID write it off! Because we got the DS9 episode "Cardassians", which is pretty much the same plot only not objectively crap.

Kind of a dull episode for me, I haven't watched it much over the years. I remember assuming that the stabbing scene was a dream, but it was quite a good way to end the episode. There's not much wrong with it, it's just too guest-star focused.

Yeah this episode is a very forgettable and uninteresting one for me. The only good part about it is I always enjoy a situation where the threat isn't actually a threat and for once the Enterprise can actually curb-stomp whoever they're facing off against. I feel there should be more threats where the threat isn't actually if they can overpower the enemy and rather can you do something else, an alternative win condition. It's a fundamental part of good game design too in many circumstances. Too often the victory condition is to beat the enemy when more interesting victories like escape the overwhelming force, don't let anyone die or stop the ritual kind of victories would be more interesting and memorable.

You keep making the point that Star Trek isn’t strong on continuity (except for character arcs), but then keep making arguments about Federation being this, that or the other (in this ase “federation treaties suck”). Problem is, what the federation does has been created by writers who didn’t make any great effort to consider continuity in that sense. What you talk about as “the Federation” doing something is just plot convenience.

18May2023

a great segue to an new enemy, that is backward,lost very badly, built a trade network,build hell out of their economy,then their military builds w/o knowing cultural intent&culturebuildsweirdly

Never did like the episode. Enjoy your ruminations.

I don't like the episode. I find it way too melo dramatic.

Ugh, garbage episode. Garbage alien of the week, Federation cowardice, pick your favourite ST cliche.

18May2023