The Temple doesn't need to be easier, it needs to be worth it. Having the Alien Compass only spawning in tandem with going to Volcana as well as Temple isn't good enough; the Temple needs a benefit of its own to be balanced.

@yoshibeara3446

3 жыл бұрын

I disliked his response to that. He said "he doesn't want to make the tallest mountain shorter or make the view of a small hill worse". He thinks we want temple to be easier or for tide pool to have worse rewards but I haven't seen anyone ask for that.

@drfunkinstein1

3 жыл бұрын

My thought would be to have a way to get alien compass after going jungle. Jungle was harder to get good at than volcana but has a bigger reward in terms of supplies and is more consistent with practice. Then you have tide pool easier than temple and you also get better supplies and don't lose your ankh making there almost no reason to go temple until you've already completed a 7-99 run and are just bored with the game.

@Garchomp808

2 жыл бұрын

I always go temple, i just like the free bombs and jetpack. I always end up dieing in tide pool to assassins and bear traps

I find it so weird it’s harder AND worse for your run, it’s like the game is teasing you to go the easy way because it’s better for your run

I had an idea for a buff for Temple. Have the elixir be able to be stored and activated later. So say you get cursed in the Cosmic Ocean, you hit LB and you drink the elixir.

@VideoJe1

3 жыл бұрын

Makes it useful in all sorts of situations, even in a CO run if you get cursed there.

@tafazzi-on-discord

3 жыл бұрын

maby even make it so after picking up the first elixir, for the rest of the run crates can contain elixir

@zypireal

Жыл бұрын

my idea for a rework is instead of curing curse you can heal while cursed

@xkelet4

Жыл бұрын

what the fuck is lb

I agree with every point in the video. Temple needs either a buff, or a buff.

@jestfullgremblim8002

3 жыл бұрын

Ah yes, but i gotta add that it could rather be a buff

@davinarobertson47

3 жыл бұрын

nah nerf

Idk man, it’s a rough choice on how to adjust Temple, but I definitely feel like it needs adjusting. Because right now, the moment I say “I feel like going Temple today” THE RUN IS OVER YOU’RE DEAD The moment you let the thought of Temple seep into your heart, you were already dead. And for what? A Jetpack? A Jester Hat? A potion that has no effects? Why not play Tide Pool for the 10304th time and get the Magical Clone Gun :0 and the Lethal Excalibur :0 and the Legendary Ankh skip :0

@yoshibeara3446

3 жыл бұрын

i think Derek should just work on the workshop so there can be much more "non vanilla" changes like new floors and new items

The other main problem with Temple is there is only one other reward (alien compass), that you need to have done the Van Horsing quest for (meaning you have to go Volcana, probably picked up the cape, and are then likely going to lose it to go to Duat), yet the route it incentivizes doesn't guarantee large amounts of bombs or paste, which are a HUGE help in temple. It would make more sense if the quest to get the compass started in jungle, where paste is at least more likely to be found and the Black Market usually has bombs. That way you choose after Quillback whether you want the cape or to try your luck in the Jungle for more resources and a jetpack, and if necessary carry on to temple for the guaranteed jetpack while picking up the compass along the way. At least that way you have a reason to go to temple.

I agree entirely. I've been saying this since launch and the only thing that has been changed to the Temple to make it better is a guaranteed jetpack in Duat, which I don't feel is enough. It doesn't make sense for the Tide Pool to the easiest option AND the most rewarding option. Clone Gun vs Elixir has always been in favour of the Clone Gun. The only noticeable leg-up the Temple has over the Tide Pool is the Alien Compass, but it takes so much effort to get, doing the whole Van Horsing questline, which all takes place outside the Temple anyway. Having the Temple be way more dangerous than Tide Pool is okay, good even, if the Temple at least rewarded you for willingly taking the harder path. So far, I've only been to Duat once, just for the achievements associated with it.

@HexPhoenix

3 жыл бұрын

I feel the exact same. I'll just add that there is no ankh skip, and if you went to jungle instead of Volcana you can't even get the alien compass. But if you went to Volcana and got Vlad's cape, the jetpack becomes even less valuable.

Elixir should provide a persistent effect that lasts after Duat. I propose that it should cleanse curse/poison at the end of every level. That way, curse + poison still can be a scary combination in CO, but you aren't guaranteed to die from it if you are quick and careful. You also would have to work your hp back up from 1 using the kapala after being cursed. That would make volcana + temple make a whole lot more sense for CO. Then alien compass would actually get more use, too. I guess this would mess with true crown spawn, though. Maybe have the effect only activate after reaching Duat? So if you sac yourself with elixir in your belly, then your resurrected form has resilience to curse/poison. That makes sense, right? Then, you would have to ask yourself, "Do I want to resist poison/curse, or do I want to save ankh for the free one time failure in CO?"

@ElGatto-iu4mo

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe curse cures after 2 levels because curse is easier to avoid to poison and I want to cause pain

An idea I have is that elixir should be an item that you get to keep and it stops you from becoming poisoned.

@chocolatecake50000

2 жыл бұрын

hello future teller

@astefchrist

2 жыл бұрын

@@chocolatecake50000 i guess they liked my idea 🤨

After some thinking, my solution would be to put Elixir in Tide Pools and Clone Gun in Temple. You'd keep the Elixir health if you did ankh skip, and Temple would get clone gun and alien compass for CO. This would make the harder path (Temple) better for the hardest win (7-99), not just high score and True Crown runs, and Tide Pools would still be better for speedruns and Tiamat wins, and imo Hundun wins and eggplant runs too. Only issue would be curing poison/curse in Temple, but poison's an issue in both places and City of Gold guarantees an altar for curse. And there's also speedrun invalidation to consider.

I definitely agree! Being tough is kinda Temple's "thing", but the rewards you get for braving through the place are... Kinda crap. Really not worth it, and it's a bummer.

Just gotta buff the Scepter to also target the cosmic bubbles. lmao

@minersheep8285

3 жыл бұрын

Lol that’s actually a pretty creative idea

@TheSilly6403

Ай бұрын

You're not supposed to take scepter to Cosmic Ocean, it's only possible if you're skipping Quilin

The ability to obtain an Ankh in Duat, maybe for sacrificing something on the altar there, would be interesting - at the moment the Ankh skips in Tidepool are either luck dependant or skill based, easy for experienced players but less straightforward for novices or more casual players, so giving a guaranteed way to have an Ankh going into Ice caves would make things fairer. I'd also suggest swapping the entrances for Temple and Tidepool in Olmec. For many players who beat Olmec regularly it doesn't make a difference, but especially for newer players who often leave before completely defeating Olmec and getting the Ankh, as well as speedrunners and shortcut users, it creates a scenario where the player chooses to either go to temple or spend time/resources to go to the more rewarding Tidepool. At the moment it feels like you have to do more work to get to temple, and there's no reward for doing so except a harder level and fewer rewards. Extra thought: have the elixir either permanently fill half your Kapala - now you permanently gain HP twice as fast, or alternatively modify your Kapala - making it so each HP gain with the Kapala cures you of Curse and Poison.

I just want to say your videos have helped me through a lot. I recently had oral surgery where I had to have my wisdom teeth removed and part of my jaw bone shaved. You're videos make me laugh all of the time. Please, never stop being the way you are.

@octosaurinvasion

3 жыл бұрын

Touching, but....... it's 'your' at the start of the third sentence

switch elixir and clone gun and also Glup should be in city of gold so you can keep the clone gun and the vlad's cape.

@octosaurinvasion

3 жыл бұрын

i think there's some lost lore in having elixir of life be in a temple there

Temple is the optimal path for score runs. I have been watching Twiggle's streams recently where he's doing score runs and it caused me to start trying them. Getting to go city of gold for the purpose of score is a ton of fun.

@spiritwicc3953

3 жыл бұрын

It is the best path for score runs, but in general play where you're just trying for a 7-99 clear, Tide Pool's the better place to go

@sakesaurus

3 жыл бұрын

ah yes, True Crown carpet bombing, you truly get to experience the Temple's risky gameplay. No, the score runs don't count, they're doing the same thing in every level.

I said this in Xanagear’s video but I’ll say it again here: The only thing I can think of is maybe give the Elixir something to benefit the player in Duat? Like right now in the Tide Pool route there are quite a few skips to where you won’t have to use your Ankh but you’ll still be able to get Quilin. If you’re in the Temple and don’t want to do a Quilin skip, you HAVE to lose the Ankh, so the ONLY buff I could see being useful is something that helps you after you lose the Ankh. Maybe it makes it so that after you use the Ankh you respawn with 10 health instead of 4?

@haanimirza4090

3 жыл бұрын

one thing I've seen is that the elixir stays the same without the kapala, but with it, it gets upgraded so that it allows you to gain health faster

@spiritwicc3953

3 жыл бұрын

I think it should provide a long lasting effect. We're trying to make it match the power level of the CLONE GUN, so feel free to go nuts. I think immunity to status effects would be an amazing buff, one that could potentially outweigh the potential for a metric tonne of bombs and ropes in the Sunken City. The safety of not being permanently poisoned or cursed in the Cosmic Ocean is a huge deal.

@ODISeth

3 жыл бұрын

@@spiritwicc3953 I can get on board with that idea!

I think i you go Temple path you should get Derek Yu's phone number.

@chippedgoat

2 жыл бұрын

Even though this is a low effort joke it had me laughing for awhile

@NostraFnDamus

2 жыл бұрын

@@chippedgoat Low effort?! I'll have you know I slaved for hours over that joke. I agonised over the wording so much I went entirely bald. Even the spelling mistake is deliberate. You wound me, sir.

@chippedgoat

2 жыл бұрын

@@NostraFnDamus Oh my goodness I am so sorry, My standards of jokes are so high that I can not see a quality joke that has clearly been slaved over for hours, I must repent for my sins, Let me go repent by going to duat 200 times

Man I wish I was good enough to make this video mean something. Im 200 hours in and have been to the temple like 5 times. I dont even know how to do the quest lines because I die before I can ever reach them.

I think the Alien Compass should be buffed to blink like the Udjat Eye when getting close to bubbles in the Cosmic Ocean.

I feel like your logic is good, that there should be reward for the risk. I don't personally care about invalidating runs, even though I love watching them. It spices things up, run with the new patch! That should never drive not updating a game, imo. Incentivizing temple runs would be so worth that tradeoff, for the long term betterment of the game!

The elixir should immunized the player against being cursed, coz right now if you get poison and cursed (something that can easily happen in any temple level) your run is over.

@DoomerSlice

3 жыл бұрын

This would actually instantly make temple on par with tide pools, because you don’t get clone gun and to go to duat you HAVE to use ankh, but you can’t get poisoned or cursed during the whole of cosmic. You don’t get resources or the ankh, but you get a cosmic compass and curse (and maybe poison) immunity. It just depends on what you think you need.

@kit2799

3 жыл бұрын

@@DoomerSlice complete immunity would be way too strong. maybe being able to store it and use it any time or immunity against either effects once?

@TheStardustConspiracy

3 жыл бұрын

@@kit2799 it may be but being honest having an ankh and a ton of resources it’s way too strong already, It would serve the players to try a different play style

@yoshibeara3446

3 жыл бұрын

Elixer shoud set your health at 1 but without the effect or it should entirely block it once like anhk

I like Temple, it has a lot of cool enemies and is a nice experience with all the funny deaths, but the only grudge I hold against temple is that you have to 100% lose your ankh. But, with the new quilin skip, you dont even have to sacrifice your well earned ankh. So I'd say it's fair, but maybe they should reduce the amount of crush traps, which are pretty much the bear traps of Tidepool, and appear way too often in Temple. I could see why, I think temple lacks trap variety, since we only have crush traps, while tide pool has spikes, crushing doors, clams, and much more. Apart from this, I think that it is already balanced. But the temple/CO-temple crush trap insta kill (the one where you enter the level and there's a crush trap right above you) is very unfair, it can kill an entire squad of people if theyre not ready as soon as they enter the level, and this especially is annoying if you're far in CO. This can happen in many other levels, but the problem with this is that it insta kills you. I hope this bug is fixed soon, as it ruins a lot of runs.

For the game long term, I think it makes sense to incentivize the temple more. I don't want it easier in any way, but as it stands I literally never go there because WHY WOULD I? Keeping the ankh is huge, there are way more opportunities for items and health, the clone gun actually has a use, etc. I could go on all day about why the Temple is never worth it but anyone watching this already knows that. I would be curious to see the stats on how often Tide Pool is chosen over Temple, my current guess is that its overwhelmingly on the Tide Pool side.

It makes more sense to me, to have the Elixir in the Tide Pool and the Clone Gun in the Temple, after the City of Gold. The Elixir gives you more health, (and Curse/Poison Immunity would be nice) on the side where you can skip killing yourself; then the Clone Gun being in the Temple, after the suicide to Duat, gets you a chance at lots of consumables. The Alien Compass + consumables - is one choice. The Clone Gun + Health/Immunity to Curse/Poison - is another choice. That would be a difficult choice to make, I think. The items/consumables you happen to have, on a run, may help with the choice.

When I think of the temple, I think of sneaking past enemies and finding creative ways to not be seen. So why do sorceresses, Anubis, and necromancers see you through walls? Maybe this wasn’t the intention, but it would be cool if sneaking past everything was an option

I'd say if they were to buff the elixir, they could make it portable, or make you take one less damage from everything that deals more than one damage, not counting telefrags or lava or anything of that matter, except falling, you should survive from that. They could make the elixir imbue your whip or strengthen the effect of fire weapons or some other offensive buff, or Derek Yu could make it affect resources, like making ropes go faster, deal more damage, or be able to be refunded after a short time of using them. Or it could effect the strength of healing items, make you move faster, make healing items remove curse, have the Kapala fill twice as fast, maybe make it a one level invincibility after using it when you want to. There's so many ideas, like, say fireproofing your backpack, making teleports more predictable, having player explosions leave an AoE DoT, making coffins revive players and provide hired help with 10 or 11 HP, have Jellies change gems, provide perma-protection against timed enemies. (making them spawn, like, 30 seconds later) Or they could make the Elixir continue the riskier path by providing a buff, but the same timed enemies come way sooner, making you take double damage while you have a pack, but it can't explode, or taking half when you don't have a pack/cape. That's what I came up with.

The elixir needs to be buffed to cancel out any poison or curse effects

@rappsnitching

3 жыл бұрын

it already does that lol

@Welowas

3 жыл бұрын

@@rappsnitching They mean even future effects.

@rappsnitching

3 жыл бұрын

@@Welowas but then it would be too over powered, CO would be too easy

@Welowas

3 жыл бұрын

@@rappsnitching The Scepter is still very dangerous in CO with the loop and stuff. And bringing it to CO in the first place is pretty hard. So that would be the kind of risk-reward thing we are looking for.

@octosaurinvasion

3 жыл бұрын

@@Welowas but you can just. not use the scepter in the co.

You have quite the way of getting points across! :)

Maybe I'm the weird one, but my jungle/duat runs are the ones that have actually gotten me into the CO. Sure, I'm way more likely to die in those places than volcana/tide pool, but if I do make it out, I'll be set to go all the way. I suck at the ankh skip, and getting Gronk to carry the clone gun for me is way too troublesome, so then going duat for the guaranteed jetpack doesn't have a huge cost of opportunity from my perspective.

I agree and it's already got a few buffs like the jetpack from Osiris

I definitely agree with Temple being more interesting from a gamer challenge perspective, like it really should be the one that gives you better odds at succeeding later. Don't really get the whole preserving the integrity of the speedruns thing...like I get it, it's impressive and kudos to your record or whatever but would we wanna sacrifice a better tuning of the paths for new or former speedrunners bragging rights? As it is it kinda makes sense to have the clone gun be on Temple instead...having the ahnk skip, clone gun AND being the easier path make tide pool a no brainer. I wonder if such a thing has been suggested...I'm sure if it has it was immediately down voted to oblivion by the popularity contest that's that discord's user feeback channel.

I wholeheartedly agree. As it is now, you get too many advantages by going Tidepool (you get to keep Vlad's cape, you get Tusk's gambling shop and access to her palace, you get the clone gun and a skippable ankh) and none of this if you go Temple. I'm more than okay with Temple being so much harder, but you get too many goodies in Tidepool, while losing almost everything in Temple/Duat...it's not a question of balance in difficulty, it's what you gain vs what you lose

i think elixir should be something you can carry trough levels, when you get poison/curse/1hp it uses it

They could have the elixir protect you once against poison/curse or give you health periodically. Or maybe give you an item that halves all damages

Idea: the star challenge gives a new item that you have to carry like a clone gun. It works like a machete, and if you break a pot with it, the pot has a chance to drop elixir and rarely an ankh.

Great little vid blargh Cinco De Mayo hype!! Let's gooohh

@jamster251

3 жыл бұрын

Dopamine anticipation is through the roof! Pog

@benejeneb

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamster251 😝

maybe have it to where you get the ankh from killing anubis. and perhaps get the scepter from olmec instead.

I think both already kinda have exactly what’s being talked about in the video? Especially with the lava skip for tide pool the difference is pretty clear that temple = higher difficulty, more death traps, elixir and a place made entirely out of gold to pillage, making score runs much more delicious. But also that you must use the ankh if going to the cosmic ocean. No way around it, while tide pool gives you a chance to take the ankh into the cosmic ocean. There’s already a good risk reward factor between the two. I’m not saying that this video is redundant just sharing my view. Great vid as always Israel love your vids

Not gonna take credit for that phrase at the end but I'll still feel good about it. Thank you

Simple solution: switch the clone gun and the elixer.

Agreed. We dont see temple, duat or city of gold often enough in creator content

Wait I've pretty much only done temple since October... is Ocean land or whatever that much easier?!

Switch spots of clone gun and elixir

Me personally I never go tide pool. I think that temple is more fun, also when going sunken city going duat is (for me) almost always much faster than going to tide pool.

I think the buff of elixir giving immunity to curse or poisoned is good. I think more about more buffs for completing duat,like...you take a item that make you get 1 heart for every level complete even without saving a pet,maybe this would be good

@evvylovesuu

Жыл бұрын

it is, but it didn’t use to do that also, it used to go away when you sacrificed yourself to duat

Very interesting and valid point, good sir.

When you say optimal path, you mean to CO, and when you enter CO, you will still go through PLENTY of temple levels. Going tide pool is a nice breather in your 2 hour run, and it being optimal for CO is fine, as you won't miss out on doing temple levels. Furthermore, you can still go temple to get the alien compas, and the jetpack, making the temple optimal for speedruns, as volcana is already the optimal speedrun path. I 100% belive that elixr needs a small buff, but I adore the fact that temple is this lesser trodden nightmare

Okay, so, there IS a risk versus reward here tho, but it only comes into effect if you care about high score through the city of gold, and it has a garenteed altar to boot. But as far as getting as deep into the game as possible is concerned. One simple buff I can see would be to just let you get out of anzu with your ankh. Suddenly it would be a route for a consistent jetpack, and doesn't cost you the ankh to get. It would in no way create an easy mode that invalidates new records, it would simple open up a new route to do something you already could, a bit more consistently, but requires you to survive the temple and give up the clone gun.

Black market: you can get a bunch of good items Vlads castle: You can get one extremely great item. Thus each path has a good reason to pick it. There is no reason to go to temple because: No ankh skip Elixer sucks cause you have to kill yourself Heres some changes i can think of: Give the elixer a massive buff. Something that would make it worth giving up your ankh. Give the temple some kinda ankh skip Buff the elixer so it dosent just heal you, and remove the ankh skip from tide pools. Doing one of these would make both paths worth going too.

@countofcounts

3 жыл бұрын

The ankh skip depends on Volcana->Tide Pool

@shealtiel8414

3 жыл бұрын

@@countofcounts ankh skip is possible without vlads cape

The Temple is my favorite area in any spelunky area It's just a shame it's never really a good idea to go there

The elixir should work like a potion, you can use it at anytime after picking it up, even after death. That's my opinion anyway

Honestly the elixir buff, giving you immunity to poison/curse/both, sounds like the perfect option right now, especially after reading Derek's post. And, weirdly, I didn't fully agree with him. I agree that the difference in difficulty is a good aspect of the game and temple and tide pool shouldn't be "balanced" in difficulty. I actually like the idea of slowly learning both zones, understanding the pros and cons of each, and adapting a run on that. Especially with the endgame Cosmic Ocean zone, which I honestly really like. Basically, as your skill increases, the experience adapts almost perfectly. You learn to navigate the dwellings, you see lava and bear traps for the first time, you fight Olmec over and over, so on and so forth. And the cosmic ocean is an amazing "last step", an incredible challenge that takes, if everything goes smoothly, at least 2 hours. It's a great way to put all your knowledge and acquired skill to the test. All the zones before CO basically become the "preparation" phase, in which not only you acquire the means to get to the zone, but you get as many items as you can while still managing them. And your life. And this is where the tide pool VS temple problem arose. Right now, it doesn't make any logical sense to choose temple over TP. The reward for an harder zone with more and stronger minibosses, tougher and faster enemies, tons of instakill traps... is some health (that you have to sacrifice anyways if you wanna go to Duat). And a guaranteed jetpack? Hurray?? Meanwhile, TP is a bit easier, so the reward should be even smaller, right? Well, if you consider 72 bombs and ropes, which are enough to last you through basically every level of the CO, a smaller reward than... a jetpack (which you can perfectly find in a ton of other ways AND is easily replaceable by other back items). The only item that is actually good (in my humble opinion), and I can see play a stronger influence in this discussion, is the alien compass. But you can only get it if you go to Volcana, a zone which rewards you with Vlad's cape... that reduces even more the value of the guaranteed jetpack. ALSO BY CHOOSING TIDE POOL YOU CAN KEEP YOUR ANKH IN A TON OF WAYS. It's actually kinda dumb how easy it is to perform the ankh skip. I kinda understand the philosophy behind Derek's hesitation towards buffing the temple. But right now, it's a zone that just offers higher risk for much lower rewards. By choosing temple, you basically choose a slightly harder zone at the cost of 48 bombs and ropes, your ankh, easy access to Tusk's mansion, and in exchange for all this you get a jetpack, or 8 life. The elixir buff is thematically great (especially with the dangers of the temple itself), would persist to Duat, and would make for an incredibly interesting choice that all players, even speedrunners, will have to make each run. Do you want more ropes and bombs? Or do you want to reduce some of the risks of the CO by taking the compass and immunity to debuffs? (On this note, I'll say that I don't agree with the "post-patch victory" argument. There are tons of self imposed challenges you can try if you want additional difficulty. Why would "going to temple" be a greater achievement when you have 99 frickin levels to get through? Isn't it better to give players a difficult choice that will reward them, instead of having the choice between playing through TP or just shooting yourself in the foot?) It doesn't necessarily have to be "higher risk, higher reward". TP and temple can perfectly have a reward that is near equal in terms of value. But right now, if your objective is to get to the sunken city, there is no real reason to go to temple unless you're absolutely desperate for a jetpack, or you like the zone. And don't get me wrong, the zone is really cool. I prefer it to tide pool, honestly. But right now, I wanna get to the egg boys, and I have no reason to go there. Holy crap I wrote a ton of stuff. Thanks for coming to my TED talk I guess

I think a step in the right direction would be to make it so you cannot keep the Ankh if you go the tidepool route.

@stephengarber1077

3 жыл бұрын

But that makes the game EVEN HARDER lol. Buff temple for sure, but do you need to make the other route harder?

I'd be cool with them raising the difficulty of Tide Pool to make it closer to Temple.

Darn, you beat me to this videoo

I completely agree I feel like temple can have (hard enemies more one-shots but also it should have the clone gun and u shouldn't have to use the ankh to go to duat) my opinion on the matter

@calebstuder448

3 жыл бұрын

or remove ankh skip in tide pool

Wow. I made such a mistake. I always go temple. I guess I just liked spelunky 1 too much and never bothered to learn the tide pool. I've learned so much haha

but I don't want to get curse-poisoned in one level

I totally see what u mean, but I have always thought that Temple was supposed to be a little bonus that can be potentially more useful while Tide Pool is more well rounded. Temple under most scenarios is worse than Tide Pool but for CO speed runs, True Crown runs, score runs, willing to trade an ankh for JP and Quillin, and also the double favor from enemies it can be actually quite decent. Even with that, I would appreciate a buff, but not something huge. (But rly don't try to do a True Crown/Tide Pool run unless u somehow already got the True Crown before 3-1)

I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but the "post patch" argument is very weak in my opinion. Games change, new records and achievements are made.

Temple needs anubis two

They could swap the Clone Gun with the Elixir, in the next run, IF YOU PICK EITHER ONE UP! That would make people go to the Temple, to get the clone gun for example, but not completely rule out Tide Pool since in the next run they could go there for the clone gun, since they swaped when you picked one up. This is a way to make people go Temple, without buffing Elixir. The thing with this solution is it would make CO a lot more difficult for normies, if they have to go the Temple route to get the Clone Gun, and it might make it too good for pros since, Alien Compas->Clone Gun->Jetpack from Duat lol. Of course you can still buff the Elixir to tempt players and shit, and you could remove the Jetpack from Duat as well, since it could be too OP. Damn dude, you gotta think about a lot of things to make even a small change in a video game like this =)) Im really curious what Mr. Yu will do... get it? k peace :P

Wait... you guys made it to the temple?

Agree

You know, in theory someone could just go: "But hey Blargho, I think it's fair! Maybe you should just get better at the game? Spelunky 2 is supposed to be hard, you know." And yes, that is true: Spelunky 2 is beautiful for how hard it is but there's a difference between dying due to your own stupid mistake and dying because of the game's caprice. Unfortunately, I feel like Spelunky 2 (as compared to Spelunky HD) has too many moments where you can't predict what will happen and die to a random cause. Because how exactly will you counter a flaming, flying yeti that exploded off-screen? There is a ton of examples similar to this and don't get me wrong, Spelunky HD had moments like those too: But due to being much less complex, they were less likely to happen. It is hilarious sometimes but, well I think Spelunky 2 in general is too merciless with murdering the player due to a tiny little mistake they made. Can this be solved effectively? I don't think so. The game is too crammed with all little events, psychics, enemies, movements, projectiles that they just collide with each other sometimes, creating a murderous kill-wheel (although yeah you can learn to be wary of SOME stuff... although even the best players tend to get screwed up a lot by such, as you can see in Twiggle's beautiful Spelunked compilation).

@Sonoidus

3 жыл бұрын

Although: Yeah this is INCREDIBLY hard to solve. I'd definitely even say that this shouldn't even be touched because only a bad thing will come out of it. Just thought I'd share what I think!

Maybe if they add options of pre/post in the start menu. Some patches I don't like, some I do. Elitist players are a small minority and fight any change.

i love that its high risk, but its just not worth it at all

Maybe swap star challenge rewards, Elixir from Tide Pool, Clone Gun from Temple CO runs stay the same, but you need the harder route to get all dem bombs

@MegaSuperjavier

3 жыл бұрын

but then you'd get both alien compass and clone gun from Tide Pool kinda broken

@sebastianscopa3188

3 жыл бұрын

@@MegaSuperjavier He said swap them, so the idea was the temple gives the clone gun rather than the elixir

@MegaSuperjavier

3 жыл бұрын

@@sebastianscopa3188 sorry, i meant you'd get them both from temple

@melephs_cap

3 жыл бұрын

@@MegaSuperjavier Even then I think the difficulty of Temple vs Tide Pool balances it out some, and Tide Pool would still be better for speedruns, normal wins, eggplant runs, and (imo) Sunken City wins. Making Temple, which is harder, the clear optimal path for 7-99, which is already the hardest win you can do, seems fitting; and Temple is also best for gold runs and a couple quests, so I think the balance would be less skewed overall even if Temple were clearly the best for CO runs.

@melephs_cap

3 жыл бұрын

@@_WhiteMage Odd. I did write a lot so that may be a factor. I'll try again. Now that I know feel free to delete your comment here (just bc it's off-topic).

mmm boba4duat, just sayin

@daneelaart

3 жыл бұрын

wake up

@omeletttte

3 жыл бұрын

anubthis

@cheengo

3 жыл бұрын

boba4duat

@feeshmang4308

3 жыл бұрын

yessir

I never go with Temple route.

Temple is interesting and fun to go to, but its never a good idea to go to unless you're ok with possibly throwing away a good CO attempt. Tide pool is boring and easy as fuck and yet its the optimal route for anyone and everyone looking for a good run, whether that run be for tiamat or for hundun or for CO it doesn't matter, tide pool is still optimal. If not because of its rewards than because of its ease. I'm tired of the repeated tide pool over and over and over and over, run after run after run after run, and yet in order for my CO to actually be good I need to go there and I hate it. Not to mention that even if I'm feeling willing to take the hit and go for alien compass instead of clone gun, I cant do that if I went jungle, so I cant even have an interesting CO attempt if I go jungle, what the fuck is up with that. The only real thing I can think of that would make Jungle + Temple alien compass broken is the quite rare occasion when you leave that place with like 60+ bombs, but its just so rare for me that I don't see why you would remove that possibility just because of that. Honestly all I want is for alien compass to be obtainable from jungle routes, because that item is so fun and interesting and I wish I could pick it up more without killing my run.

Please keep ranting, feed me the negativity I need to continue with my daily suffering

I don't give a shit about the whole "oh you did it with post buff temple? Then you didn't do it properly" argument. Game balance takes precedence over a person's preconceived notions of what "counts"

2:03 that’s not a gamer choice, that’s just gambling

@sakesaurus

3 жыл бұрын

it is a roguelike

Could you just switch the clone gun into temple, and elixir into tide pool? That'd put the stronger incentive/reward into temple, without doing anything game breaking.

I don't mind if they make the game easier, then those who complain about speed running can just do it again to get faster speeds. But if the game gets harder, then it becomes more difficult to flesh out the pre nerf vs post nerf runs.

you shouldn't care about people saying "ohh you played the BUFFED version" if the buffed version is a more enjoyable experience to you

To me temple doesn't feel like an alternate path like jungle/vulkana. To me temple feels like built in your run hard mode and I'm fine with it.

are speedrunners main spelunky 2 audience? if not then who cares if it changes speedruns

i think elixir should be random permanent effects, or smth like that you choose temple chaos, and chaos then chooses for you

one thing that I've seen a mod for (I can't remember the name at the moment but will come back if I can find it) is that the elixir is a kind of upgrade for the kapala. this makes sense to me, seeing as the temple is related to Kali, as should be its rewards. the elixir would stay the same in the event that you do not have the kapala, but upon receiving both, you would be able to gain one health with less than 8 blood droplets, so you gain health quicker. combined with Vlad's cape, you'd be getting nearly one health for every enemy you kill. this also wouldn't invalidate the poison tick, as you still need to locate and defeat enemies to outheal the poison. as for the curse, I don't think there's much to change. it is one of the few elements that are absolute: you *will* stay at one health until you sacrifice enough to Kali, drink Elixer, or die. For balancing purposes, I doubt this should be changed in any way. the way I see it, the main reason elixir is so underpowered is because in the very next level it is necessary to die with the ankh and invalidate all the health you just received if you want to go to the Duat and eventually the Sunken City. In conclusion, I see this as a decent solution that could buff temple's rewards without making the remainder unnecessarily easy.

To actually give a serious reply, I look at Temple like I look at the worm and Mothership in Spelunky HD. It's an optional path with a different vibe and lopsided rewards...hard doesn't need to mean more beneficial in a fun video game. You're opinion is valid and I can definitely see where you're coming from though I don't necessarily see eye to eye.

@epicgamer-si7dv

3 жыл бұрын

If you see the temple as the worm from Spelunky HD then you agree that there was a significant incentive to go there then. Temple doesn't have the same level of reward as a crysknife. I see myself going to the worm in HD whenever I feel like it even though I know that it will probably end my run because the reward of an item that oneshots everything is really good. If temple had that same kind of reward then it would definitely be a viable path. I think Blargh's argument is that the temple is completely unbalanced in terms of risk/reward, where the risk significantly outweighs the reward, which makes it a much less enjoyable route from a game design standpoint.

@XanaGear

3 жыл бұрын

@@epicgamer-si7dv Temple has big shooty scepter if you already have a jetpack, (guaranteed jetpack if you don't). I think there is definitely an incentive...maybe not if you're going for CO consistency but last time I checked CO is not the only way to play this game.

funni comment

The elixir does seem like a weak prize for the Temple run. The prize should be something just as good or even better than the clone gun. A second ankh would be useful. Actually, it would make more sense to put the elixir with Olmec and put the ankh in the Temple. The elixir would work great with Olmec and the ankh would go better with the overall Egyptian Temple theme as well as be more useful that late in the game.

Defending against updates exclusively because of speedruns sounds rather elitist. But this game has been designed to be even more spiteful to the casual player than the original. Sure health is easier to collect, but there's multiple ways it's either negated outright or stunlocking to death or instantly killed, effectively turning into a 1-hit wonder anyway. The ghost originally designed as an anti-cheat mechanic in the first game, becomes increasingly troublesome to avoid despite the levels being significantly bigger. It's not just the shopkeeper anymore, but a handful of npcs that'll only run down the player for cheap randomization interaction. The stun from taking damage lasts slightly longer, making any one mistake a potential run ender, but they added ways to get stunlocked instead of fixing control lockout. To complete the game in one run it used to take minutes, it now takes hours because it's basically just repeating the same room with a different theme.

Switch the clone gun and elixir spawns every month until the end of time

Well, about the point about "changing the game" they already did something similar: Jetpack with Anubis II can be a enormous deal, especially if you know how to do Qilin Skip with it. 2 dailies ago I left Jungle without jetpack (yeah, I like Jungle and I prefer to go there instead of Volcana) so I decided to go to the temple instead. I couldn't get the tablet of destiny because it was with lava, so I didn't get it and went with skip instead. If this option (go to the temple to get a jetpack) wasn't available, I wouldn't even think about this choice. I don't mind "big changes" in order to balancement because it is that or turning temple into a big meme about "WELL, LET'S GO TO THE TEMPLE. YOLO, RIGHT?".

In super mario odessey, they released patch 1.3.0 that made loading times significantly faster so anybody playing in the 1.0 version of the game couldnt break any records. There were 0 complaints about it, people just went on and broke the record again. I am all for buffing temple, even if it messes with the speed runs.

They could buff the alien compass so it works in cosmic ocean

@valorantofficial5560

3 жыл бұрын

They should also make it point to the mothership in ice caves

I think that the Temple rout should remain the more difficult rout and that Darek's team shouldn't BUFF the temple in a significant way. In my opinion should happen, that the Elixier becomes a parachute type of item, that it remedies poisoners or cursedness once and than disappears from the inventory.

I didsliked his respose and I think he should leave the game as it is and focus on workshop so that it is easier (and safer) to modify the game

Hi

"The real victory" I don't know who the strawman you made is here. Temple being dead content to everyone who tries Cosmic Ocean runs has been a thing for months. I don't think any player cares about the integrity of old runs as much as they would prefer the longevity of a game by fixing it's only prominent issue.

There's no "optimal" run There are so many different categories for runs, the point Derek makes in his message on discord is that no matter how he changes the difficulty on routes, there'll always be a optimal choice depending on the type of run you're doing. Score runs specifically go great with temple. He's saying, not that he won't buff temple, but that he's not going to bother balancing things for the sake of game balance, but purely to make the game more fun. If the fact that *temple is so ridiculously difficult* is enough to make the game boring, then yes, he'll look to change it. (referencing your *unprepared temple run* footage). But he's not going to change it because "oh tide pool gives more bombs let's go with that" Also! This is kind of a personal note, but Temple is great for going for a Kali-less run, since the Elixir is the only item in the game that'll remove curse, apart from dying with an Ankh. But you'll want to keep that thing if you're going for no red stars in 7-99 (Grab a Kapala from the Ghist shop, then uncurse yourself in temple.)

Spelunky hd temple was better

Too long, didn't watch.