I am having an I/OO - Input Output Overload.

@mindblockandroid

Жыл бұрын

Honest question - do you mean diarrhea??? 😮

@tyre1337

Жыл бұрын

is that why you calculated that 69 to 82 is a 32% increase in your 4060 video?

@tyroniebalonie

Жыл бұрын

I love this video! I was considering upgrading my 8600k to a 13600k and have been looking up motherboards/ram to buy in the next couple of weeks. Now I am considering saving some money and trying to find a 10th gen as I only wanted to upgrade because my cpu is bottlenecking my 3080ti and I wanted to get the most out of my gpu. Do you know if 11th gen has the io on the cpu too?

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

​@@tyre1337 Yeah pretty busy with a lot of things at the moment, made a mistake on that one, punched a different number into my calculator, will update the description.

@SirBlot

Жыл бұрын

I still have a 2600k Sandy Bridge. I almost considered a 13900k yesterday.

I am proud to say that I have witnessed the Intel latency problems first hand when you were editing vids in Taipei.

@Hawlkeye-e9p

Жыл бұрын

Grab win 10 iso, newest build. Then grab Rufus Burn a win to go image Use a ssd sata drive on a USB adapter. Like a 840 pro. Soon as you get booted up install primo cache. Create a cache on the boot drive, say 8 gig. Use the infinite option from the drop down. Next, re format your nvme drives using 16k or higher clusters. Not 4k. Then add those to primo. Your going to be shocked.

@N0N0111

Жыл бұрын

@@Hawlkeye-e9p You know it! So many people don't know how good Primo Cache is with 64GB of fast and latency overclocked RAM. I use 50% of my RAM as Primo Cache for read & write now for over a year, before that I have used it on a 32GB RAM system with 0 issues for years. With Windows 11 getting good optimizations and actually feeling snappier than my like 3 years old Windows 10 Pro custom install. I am thinking to go build a Windows 11 custom optimized iso, currently testing the "Windows 11 Tiny" and it runs very good.

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

@@Hawlkeye-e9p will check this out. First time I have heard of it.

@toseltreps1101

Жыл бұрын

​@@Hawlkeye-e9pSounds like bullshit. It's just a stupid RAMdisk

@stanjs

Жыл бұрын

@@Hawlkeye-e9p How does RAM disk solution solve any interactive latency issues?

This is amazing, not a lot of techtubers really talked about latency and real user experience.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

Off course not. Because there is no such problem. This is a nonsense video and you`re getting played.

@idan678

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 OK intel marketing team

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 That delay we saw in File Explorer is dire! I would not put up with that even on a network. If Brian can't fix that himself then there must be a real problem. Do all 13th gen systems do that or just some?

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@wayland7150 It seems you have a little more faith in the capabilities of our honored host. But being so obviouly wrong in this case. I have my doubts.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 Brian is a fixer, he will have re-installed Windows for a start. Personally I would have tried Linux because that's very different, if the same fault showed then I would conclude it's hardware and work from there.

this is a great video. this is why i love this channel. theres so many intricacies in tech that people have to dig really deep to find answers for why things dont work the way theyre supposed to, and now my next upgrade from my old i5 6500 will be a 10th or 11th gen intel cpu instead of any of the newer 12 or 13th gen

That was super interesting! Can't wait to see more of this kind of content

In part two could you add some latency metrics? Maybe compare AM5 to 13th gen vs 10th gen

@tyroniebalonie

Жыл бұрын

this

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

Next part will finish the story, though once I have completed the 10th gen build I promise I will compare it to the 13th gen, and even Ryzen 7000, will go quite in-depth.

@yurymleh

Жыл бұрын

@@techyescity Could you please add AMD's monolithic APUs to the test? Preferrably Zen 3+ or Zen4 ones.

@michal1693

Жыл бұрын

@@yurymleh - zen 3 would be good to add

@fist003

Жыл бұрын

@@techyescity thanks, this would definitely help with my upgrade. Still on 8086k

+rep tysm for making this. I always tune my systems for minimal latency, but even with all the tweaks I still find my 12900K less responsive than my old 10700K. I always just thought it was windows 11 but it's nice knowing neither of us is tripping.

Wow! Great info.. Just sold a PC with 10900K and was telling the buyer that for whatever reason, I liked that processor better than my 13900KS. This is mindblowing to find out and I wonder if others will pick this up and investigate.

@sergeyvinc1595

9 ай бұрын

How is your user experience now? Can you confirm Bryans words? Have you tried disabling e-cores?

@buttknuckle55

9 ай бұрын

@@sergeyvinc1595I have not disabled e cores and haven’t had too much time playing around with it but I can tell you that 10th gen feels snappier. What he showed in his second video on this is what I see as well

@sergeyvinc1595

9 ай бұрын

@@buttknuckle55 disabling e-cores should help and 12th,13th gen intel become snappy as 10th

Very well articulated , i have always eerd towards low latency than higher bandwidth from my enthusiast and budget conscious perspective. Responsive is king. Like frametime vs max fps, lol. Looking forward to Part 2

@SIPEROTH

Жыл бұрын

You must really hate all the RAM development then. Since latency always get bigger while bandwidth gets higher.

I have both a 10900K and an 11900K (yeah I know) and have no plans on going higher up the series for reasons as this, and temps...great topic.

@stephencox4224

Жыл бұрын

Well my 11700 KF not overclocked yet runs at only 48 Degrees Maximum in a Mini ITX case Thermaltake Tower 100 but using the Coarsair H 120 V2 120mm best ever AIO that runs both a push and pull fan on an extra thick radiator sitting on the top of the tower it works exactly as I planned and runs way cool giving me the ability to really stretch the CPU in the future to the max Basically it thinks and acts like a 240mm AIO but in the tower 100 is given the absolute best case to work in. My reasons for not going beyond the 11th gen is it is the last one to support something I actually use AVX 512, The Latency issues are just an added bonus for me

@michaelthompson9798

Жыл бұрын

I’m using a 11900h in my laptop and whilst it’s deemed better than the desktop ‘remodel’, it’s still quite responsive and powerful enough for fps and multi core gaming 💪🤩🥰👍 and the 11th-Gen lineup / mobo can be had for cheap and features vg latency results!

@Pillokun

Жыл бұрын

I have had all of these cpu, including 12700k, 12900k and 13900kf, and trust me, alderlake/raptor lake with tuned ram is as snappy as 10th and 11th gen.

@Typhon888

Жыл бұрын

@@Pillokunsame here. I’ve had 9900k,11900k,12700k and now a 13700k. The 9th gen has the lowest latency but once tuned the 12-13th gen is almost as good.

@toseltreps1101

Жыл бұрын

​@Pillokun the rule is to not trust people who say that. you're probably full of shit and don’t want to admit you made a shitty purchase ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yes, it's true. I am always about feeling how fast a PC, Car, or how is Sound in my audio installs! so Yes, some latencies in some software are affected, and I can tell when it even comes to gaming! Awesome video, thanks!

Bring on part 2 I can't wait 😀

Two Tech YES Videos in 24 hours! The drought is finally over! May it rain YES!

@jangelelcangry

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Rain Storm

Now this is very interesting, i just went from an 8700k to 13700k, upgraded almost everything including the nVME SSDs to gen 4 and i was puzzled by the feeling of it being less responsive and laggy than my gen 3 and 8700k and despite a crystaldisk mark showing superior bench results. Thanks for the finding!

@JadeIsler

Жыл бұрын

samesamesame. I went R5 2600 -> 8700K -> 10700K ->11700K -> 12900K. Going from Ryzen to Intel felt like a 2x in responsiveness. 10th/11th to 12th gen felt like a 25% regression and I've had to do a lot of things (ie static overclock, no c-states, hecktonne of RAM tuning, moving to all PCIe Gen 4 NVME's) to claw back half of it. I also tried a 5800X but it ended up feeling worse than my 5.1GHz 10700K so I went 5GHz 11700K, which ended up feeling and performing the same.

@weyo14

Жыл бұрын

Just over clock your ram. Got ddr4 4000 cl 16 working with mine and now have 43 ns. I get more fps than most ppl on a 13900k

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@weyo14 This isn`t about that.

@ilovehotdogs125790

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 well overclocking the ram should also help with snappiness. Not just fps.

@Manakuski

Жыл бұрын

Turn off c-states and enhanced speedstep and the last one that i don't remember. Leave turbo on, set windows to high performance and turn off memory integrity. No issues here with an i7 12700KF

This video really makes me sit back and do some deep thinking about what takes priority with the latest and greatest tech. Thanks for perhaps finding the needle in the Cheese Cake. I will certainly be awaiting the release of episode 2.

Eye opening info! Thank you!

Excellent content (!)...as usual.

This was great, Brian! Thank you. God bless.

This is quite interesting. I have not used a 12th or 13th gen intel platform myself, but this reminds me of when people upgraded from x99 to x299 and saw a performance decrease in some areas. This was when intel changed their architecture from ring bus to mesh (i think). At the time, i'm pretty sure the consumer kaby lake chips were still on ring bus and actually outperformed the HEDT cpus in most games.

@Elvewizzy.

Жыл бұрын

FWIW, I got a significant bump in performance coming from x99 to x299 in games. I guess OC's were far better on the x299 platform. Still rocking it to this day :D

@OTechnology

Жыл бұрын

This was a big discussion point in the forums from HEDT users back then. I personally had a X99 6950X system when X299 dropped and decided to stay for the ring bus since I had a golden 4.6GHz 6950X. The mesh latency penalty can be reduced with a high uncore overclock and fast RAM but X299 CPUs still do lose to a highly tuned 6950X system when latency matters. Funny thing is, because the mesh CPUs sucked at gaming Intel released Kaby Lake-X which is their most pointless CPU lineup ever to try and cater to people who for some bizarre reason wanted X299 motherboards but want the best gaming performance. They offered the same 4-cores, 2-channel memory and 16 PCIe lanes as Z270 CPUs so wtf was the point?

@Elvewizzy.

Жыл бұрын

@@OTechnology I get why they introduced the Kaby Lake X though, theres plenty of people who use all the lanes on say the z270 platform, and the x299 would offer them slightly weaker cores with much more side supported stuff. And it was quite budget friendly to boot compared to the 7920x and up. They'd also OC like no tomorrow, especially when delidded. My 7920x can do 5.0Ghz on most of its cores for example. A significant bump in performance. and x299 boards just look amazing TBH. Quad channel RAM

This 'dragging and dropping' thing, for me was just an unexplained annoyance (I'm running an I5 12600K) - so thank you for this very comprehensive and clear explanation.

Thanks for this Bryan!

I am not a power user or anything, but I do have an i5-12600K (idk if that's affected by the poor latency) and I did have the same issues as you described on Windows 11. Just random slow downs or pain inducing loading times while I was making basic things like programming, presentations, documents. Don't even get me started on the usability and responsiveness while I was recording with OBS at the same time. I have always dual booted Linux on my PCs and it came time for me to install Linux on this pc too and I noticed that I never got these slow downs there, never. Months passed by and I decided to install Windows 10 on the place of 11 and I am proud to say that I am no longer experiencing these issues and I will keep away from Windows 11 for as long as I can. Just for extra clarification, I have a crucial p3 plus, sandisk 3d ssd and a seagate hard drive, the aforementioned issues happened on all three drives.

I have the same bug like you on video at 05:06 when opening folder and icons are appeared but file names are hiding itself one by one until they all disappear and back to place again. How to fix this? Anyone know?

It is extremely unlikely the problem you describe is the cause. At most, it could be an issue with buffer sizes or some other bug in the implementation. The ns of latency added would not cause seconds of delay.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

You`re right. But if you are seeking attention, it`s not the right way to approach this matter. Do it like this and you get far more attention.

@yussef961

Жыл бұрын

this...

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@yussef961 Like `this` techyes man does.

@muhammedalitoya1505

Жыл бұрын

Yep. We are talking about ns latencies, ms in worst case scenarios. These youtube techies know less and less about reality every generation it seems.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@muhammedalitoya1505 That`s right, but i guess it`s not about knowledge but about seeking attention. Fake news for clicks. Always stupid people falling for it.

Great video thanks

Also looking forward to part 2 of this.

Truly a great video! I noticed the exact same thing, I was kind of expecting it when I saw the hybrid design of LGA 1700 but I didn’t thing it would be this bad. The video was an eye opener because up until now I genuinely thought it was just due to the e-cores. Turns out, intel ditched the ring bus architecture that made them so much sales and appreciation. At the moment I switched to a 7000 series Ryzen (going AMD for the first time after having intel my whole life, I switched to a first gen Ryzen when they just came out but quickly backed off) so we’ll see how it goes!

@benjaminsmekens2344

Жыл бұрын

7000 series is very snappy. With what I saw in the video I couldn't really believe my eyes, that's terrible for a daily.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminsmekens2344 I think the video demo is very unscientific and unreliable, many things can cause that kind of behaviour. He just picks one and makes a story about it.

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 picks one, with validation from people who actually designed the cpus. Left that part out

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@techyescity I think you better check your hardware or drivers, ther are problems. Nothing to do with latency. 13900k Is ultra snappy. Never had a problem and build many systems.

@steph_on_yt

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 we'll see once the hard numbers are out in the next video. I find this hard to believe as well, since I've never had any problems with snappiness on my 12th gen system. Now I'm REALLY curious to see what Bryan discovers in his testing.

@techyescity How are you certain that it's the CPU and not some other random component in your system or even the OS? Maybe you did a lot more concrete investigation into this, but judging from this video it's a bunch of long shots with nothing to back it up. Other than "see, Windows hangs sometimes. It must be the CPU." Also, game reviews done with 13900K's do not appear to exhibit this freezing behaviour, otherwise the game benchmarks and 1% lows would be terrible. Or is there some secret agreement that I don't know about between reviewers not to talk about these dips and hide it from the graphs?

From my experience, the lags and stutters you experienced are mainly OS related (a fix may be uninstalling OneDrive). The real latency issue is DPC latency and I heard that may be fixed in a future driver update. There is a thread about this video on r/intel and some of the replies may be interesting. Lookin forward to part 2 doe :3

@ilovehotdogs125790

Жыл бұрын

I fixed the dpc latency issue by disabling core parking in regedit. On my 12900k. Tested using latencymon

I have a 12900KF, seen the issue you show, I always thought it was a Windows 11 issue, because it started happening after a KB update to fix a security issue last year or prior. Long story short I disabled A LOT of stuff in windows, MPO was one of the main ones & I wouldn't say I stopped having the issue, but it wasn't even closer to as nearly as noticeable today since I reinstalled windows fresh (due to MBR on new drives for some unknown reason causing CSM disabled issues, causing black screens for monitor that wont go away unless you restart with HDMI old TV installed into 3080 GPU with the DP port monitor) Since Then! I notice that latency issue Every God Dam Time. ~ Hindsight wish I kept a list of the changes.

@DamienRamirez

Жыл бұрын

Actually In fact since its new I only have: KB4023057, KB5027231 & KB5027303*, also Framework: KB5027119 installed & while my PC was offline & I was installing all the system drivers I didn't notice the issue, But when it was online & Windows updated as above its back & some. So i really would not rule out windows 11 making that IO issue worse. - Full transparency I also had Memory Integrity off when installing my drivers before windows update & the issue was noticeable. - I also didn't have the "optimizations for windowed games" option At All appear, until I updated windows.

@mycelia_ow

7 ай бұрын

I had a 12900k, I have a 14900k now and I've not had any issues I did with the Alder Lake i9. Alder Lake was super problematic when it came out. Unrelated but it was nearly unusable sometimes within the first few weeks until a bios update came that fixed all the bluescreening I was experiencing.

I have and still use a 10850k in my main pc , but i can almost replicate the same latency problems that u are describing in this video.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

No wonder because it isn`t latency but just a bunch of other related problems that cause this. The waits are also way to long to be latency at all.

@dracer35

Жыл бұрын

​@@brugj03I have to agree. I think there is definitely something else going on here.

@IndellableHatesHandles

Жыл бұрын

​@@dracer35I feel like maybe he is using a physical hard drive to get this "latency"

I've had a 13900k (upgraded from 9900k) for over 6 months now, and I haven't noticed a latency issue. I'm going to have to pay attention to this now.

@Shadowdane

11 ай бұрын

Yah I did a similar upgrade 9900K with DDR4-4000 -> 13700K with DDR5-6800. I don't see any latency issues like he shows in this video. Everything in this video I'm seeing, seems like a storage related problem. Maybe his storage drivers aren't in MSI-X interrupt mode and are legacy interrupt sharing with some other device? It's hard to say honestly without sitting down at his system and seeing exactly what's going on.

@dasistthomsen9

5 ай бұрын

If you game with high apm , high elo moba player vs , you will notice it Or as high elo cs player

This explanation doesn't ring true to me, I'm afraid: I'd expect any increases in latency as a result of moving the IOH off the CPU die to result in *fractions* of a second increases in latency, not seconds or tens of second delays in *certain* tasks (note, for example that the mouse pointer is still moving smoothly in the Word example). I'd expect this to be instead either an issue of operations being automatically retried after some error recovery period (e.g. disc IO, perhaps due to a block that's failing to read correctly - which may even just be one that's *adjacent* to the block(s) being requested. Conceivably, I even wonder if memory operations are at the level of sophistication that automatic retries can happen there, if e.g. electrical noise prevents a transfer from completing successfully - which an overclocked system could be more susceptible to) or an OS issue caused by it failing to take into account one or more ways in which newer CPUs differ to older ones (e.g. the introduction of big.LITTLE cores which in turn require changes to the algorithms used by the OS scheduler). Try a different OS. Try known-good hardware (especially mass storage). Try backing off any overclocking.

@filipebeat

Жыл бұрын

'fractions of a second increases in latency' exactly vid makes no sense

I was just looking at Intel thinking of upgrading from AM4 and a Ryzen 5600. This video gave me pause. Can't wait for part 2.

Interesting topic and I will be following! Not sure it's an issue for gaming as people have tested input latency to death but for other things, sure!

@Zero939

Жыл бұрын

This is about hitting the PCH

Does it have something to do with DDR5 timings doubling to what DDR4 had cause we went from CL14--18 to CL30 or more.

Great video, really waiting for part 2 I have an i5 10400 in one of my PC's and the other day I was at a friend's house and showing him around some basic stuff about video and photo editing. We both acquired our nvme SSDs the same day, they are the same model and the same capacity but the only difference is that his system is 12th gen. There were quite a few little moments that his of felt sluggish when I was browsing the files or scrubbing a few pieces of a video/photo on each editing program. I thought it was my idea, maybe I was tired of something, I even thought the SSD had some issue. Turns out I wasn't crazy and it wasn't my idea.

@tilburg8683

Жыл бұрын

I can't say my system feels slow with a 12th gen, although I don't have a E core part since the E cores are just terrible for everything so not sure if the non e core parts don't have that issue

@toseltreps1101

Жыл бұрын

​@@tilburg8683they have that issue and you're fooling yourself into thinking you still made a good purchase 😂

Interesting video my r9 5900x is pretty responsive in my opinion but I recently made a lan party pc with one of the cursed 11980 hk you recommended against as I all ready had a compatible cpu cooler and needed an IGPU while i waited for a good dgpu deal and I thought it felt more responsive but decided I was imagining things. Edit I am looking forward to the latency benchmarks despite being a 4k 60hz enjoyer lol.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

I think the 5900X is very responsive but I'd be interested to know if the 11980hk is more responsive.

The system agent is still very much on the same die like previous intel CPUS. Look up Alder Lake die shots on the net. Disabling e-cores in the BIOS doesn't work. Enable e-cores in the BIOS and then disable them in windows by using this CMD command. bcdedit /set numproc 16 (16 is the number of threads, i have a 13700K.) Perhaps the issue is the motherboard/chipset. All USB ports on intel PCs go through the chipset. The only way i can think of to bypass the chipset is to get an M.2 to USB header adapter, and connecting it to the primary M.2 slot.

I don't think so. My understanding is that the latency is in the NANO seconds, the delays shown in this video are way longer. Showing a slow Premiere Pro timeline doesn't prove anything. Have not seen ms-word "glitched out" and then associate it to a latency issue. There are many variables that could influence or cause the behavior. Maybe a doubleblind test could be setup for this and tightly controlled. Generally speaking a 13900k will be faster than a 10900k in most scenarios. Maybe setup ddr4 test systems with same ram and same nvme, similar Mobo as possible and then do some testing.

@half7232

Жыл бұрын

Nanosecond-level latencies can easily add up to milliseconds or even seconds under the right circumstances. If your CPU is doing 1 billion operations, and each of those operations has an extra 1ns of latency before the next operation can start, that means a full second of total added latency. Hence why RAM latency matters so much in games (and why AMD's x3D CPUs are able to provide such a performance uplift). I agree that there might be other causes to this specific issue though.

@RicardoSilvaTripcall

Жыл бұрын

@@half7232 1 billion operations are needed to open a word text file?, don't think so ...

Never once had I the problems you described on my 13700kf. Perhaps its something that has to do with an enabled iGPU?

Brian, does this also apply to the Intel mobile Cpus? Or is this strictly a desktop issue?

Does this also apply to 11th gen? Or do you have to go back to 10th gen or earlier to have better latency?

Very top notch and informative video. Loved it all the way. Great content!!! Thank you

mannn what a interesting video!!! need moreeeeee dont leave us like that you little M...! all with love :p

I can also confirm that on my 13900k. I witnessed that it is not as responsive as my prior cpus.

Interesting! I want to know what does this effect appears and how to objectively measure it so bad.

no issues here...12th gen

What's your opinion on Ryzen CCD/IOD latency, Zen3 vs 4 vs Intel?

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

Ryzen 7000 is getting really fast, especially when I was using the 8 core models, that was my initial impressions. I am going to trial however 10th gen, followed by Ryzen 8 core and then the 16 core for 7000 (they can behave differently). My approach however is more for video editing and heavy multitasking, based on a accelerated mouse clicking style, it maybe niche but it's my style of doing things. It will take time, though for 12 and 13th gen I am giving it up pretty soon.

@ilovehotdogs125790

Жыл бұрын

@@techyescity when you disabled the e-cores did you also increase the ring/cache ratio? My 12900k does 5.0ghz on the ring no issue with the e-cores disabled. Maybe that's what it is. memory latency tested at 45ns in aida, 43ns in intel mem checker. My old 10900k was at 38ns memory latency.. so a little better but hard to believe that difference is what is causing it. Can't find any info regarding the io driver you were mentioning.. looking forward to part 2. I'm using intel optane drive also.. not sure if that actually helps much. I can't notice any difference with that and a normal nvme ssd.

I have my doubts about the "snappiness", as the chip to chip latency of nano seconds is causing visible hangs and stutters. It is like saying slower e-mail is affecting the delivery time of physical mail. It might be just be coincident but not the cause and effect. I read somewhere, that modern processors are more aggressive to conserve power, so components are entering sleep state more often. This sleep and wake cycle might introduce an extra delay now that the IOH is off chip.

My friend still has a 10900k, great rig with 3090.

I have just recently experienced this with the CPU I currently have (I don't remember which it is exactly, but it is an i7 that I already knew I needed to replace, along with the motherboard and I'll get a new case while I'm at it, but finances haha) with some random lagging in a folder of files with everything loading slow.

I started to have some similar issue with my 2700X, but recently, never had it before, maybe some strange win10 update?

Hmm, how interesting, I have a 12900KS and z690 gigabyte board and I have not noticed much latency at all. I use the 12900KS as a professional programmer daily and writing and execution of code I find the latency to be quite low, even searching files as you showed on this video. I did find windows 11 slow to begin with, but I modified the OS configuration, set the display to performance and disable visual fades and transitions, and a bunch of background services. I can only compare my experience to my overclocked 3900XT, and the 12900KS is miles ahead in snappy feelings and performance. The one thing that could contribute is DDR4 vs DDR5. I'm running a DDR4 kit 32*2 CL16 3600. The system is noticeably slower in gear 2 mode, but in gear 1 mode it feels very fast. Now DDR5 is way slower in latency than DDR4, but it makes up for it in bandwidth, and I'm wondering if lower bandwidth tasks that are not active for long enough could be a potential cause? Not denying that moving the I/O controller off chip is causing some latency, but I wonder if it's compounded with DDR5 higher access latency in general. Generally I/O tasks concerning the mouse and keyboard and system interrupts are very very low bandwidth but still need to have the state saved in either cache or memory, and in the event of a cache miss, I wonder if DDR5 access times just tanks system interrupt performance.

@SalamiNugget

Жыл бұрын

I have a 12600k and a gigabyte board and have never noticed any latency problems

Hi Bryan! very very interesting video..

I've had problems with audio stuttering snd pops for a long time on AMD Ryzen 5800x and it was only recently that I figured it out! It was 100% latency of the memory. I got some faster memory and all problems vanished. Never knew memory latency could have such a drastic effect.

I am watching your videos for about a year and I just realised I have not subscribed.. So I Subscribed 🤓

i9-10900K was really an awesome cpu

@michaelbrindley4363

Жыл бұрын

Still is!

@computeremail9063

Жыл бұрын

@@michaelbrindley4363 100% agree

Quite strange, been using a i7-12700 along with a B660m chipset, PCIe 4.0 NVME SSD and 32Gb of DDR4 RAM at 3800Mhz and CL 17, and never faced such problems, on the contrary, everything seems so snappier. I think this needs a deeper investigation, your problems seems to be somewhere else ... Also, usually your first SSD M.2 and GPU have a direct connection to the CPU, not going through the chipset ...

@Pieteros21

Жыл бұрын

i had simmilar problems on i5 8400 , never fully figured out what caused it . Tried faster memory , tried different bios versions ... even thought mayby C states but not ...

I was having similar problems with my 5800X after migrating from a m.2 SATA SSD (Samsung 870 EVO 500GB) to a m.2 NVME SSD (WD SN770 1TB). I thought my drive was defective or something. OS would eventually crash after several hibernates. Games and apps crash eventually after several hibernates too. Stuttering and loading got worse the more hibernates and the longer and harder I use my PC. I also thought of the IO issue. So I undervolted my SOC voltage from auto (that went to almost 1.4v) to a flat 1.1v. Voila! No more lags, no more stutters, cooler CPU too. I've read about that issue before and reddit and the Pollock guy from AMD suggested to undervolt the SOC instead. The assumption was that it was thermal throttling under IO loads and this caused hiccups and long loads, like a broken HDD drive. The same should also cure some USB and audio issues too on AM4 as the USB disconnects and audio hiccups can be a sign of the IO/SOC chip under stress. I think the problem with Intel and AMD now is that they are pushing their chips too much to sell it as high as possible, combined with the overgenerous defaults of motherboards trying to say their boards perform better than others by overvolting and playing with limits. We are basically getting overclock problems out of the box.

Does the problem happen the exact same way with both DDR4 and DDR5?

With my setup the latency is because of Code 10 😅

@Willbme4EVA

Жыл бұрын

LoL, not sure everyone knows you have allot of the tech that latency tests were based on.

@federicocatelli8785

11 ай бұрын

What's a Code 10?

@philscomputerlab

11 ай бұрын

@@federicocatelli8785 Problem is 10 inches from monitor.

Actually, I am experiencing this when I was trying to load my folders with lots of codes for my Java. I thought it was my drive for it being HDD. Then again it did not happen when I was on R7 3700x and 5800X. I am now on R7 5700X which is supposed to be similar performance to 5800X with lower power. I can always replicate this issue, especially when I am also running SVN to maintain the codes.

Can you disable all sleep states in the BIOS and see if it's snappier?

Its windows 11 issue, on windows 10 everything is snappy and quick. I had bad loading times on HDD using win 11 and 13700k but everything got fixed when i moved to win 10. I use stripped down version which i modified further for maximum low latency, everythig is flying and insanely fast. I've not experienced any of what you described, you can't even open a video file lol

@rsgxyt

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, after these vids I was beginning to think I shouldn't buy a 13th gen anymore, but now I know for sure I should never upgrade to Win11.

@BorealSine

Жыл бұрын

@@rsgxyt 13th is insane, i came from 10850k which had b-die ram, all timings tuned, cache oc'd and cores + stripped windows and 13th gen is on another level of performance even at stock speeds - lol 5.4 ghz out of the box.. i own 13700k and it has 30mb of cache which simply removed all stutters in 2023 games running unreal engine, even if they do happen they are hardly noticable now...

@rsgxyt

Жыл бұрын

@@BorealSine Oh, I can imagine how fast it is. I'm still on 4th gen, can't believe it still works, looking to upgrade to either the 13700k or 12900k. I'm worried about the temps I could get on the 13700k since I don't like AIO coolers and any air cooler struggles somewhat. I think I'll be fine after undervolting (maybe also underclocking) it a bit. Looking forward to 14th gen, maybe it brings something even better.

@BorealSine

Жыл бұрын

@@rsgxyt you are completely mislead by all these YT channels, 13700k is possible to cool with 30$ air cooler, I've used it for 2 weeks and i had my 50-60 degrees celcius in games at 1.25v 5.6 ghz (during summer time) And Air cooler = AIO, there isn't much difference between premum aio and premium air cooler, if you take custom one like i have then you will have that 20 degree difference and maybe 30-35 degree difference if delidding is done. Heat transfer could be better but its not necessary when temps are great already. And to be honest with you 13700k at stock 5.4 ghz is so fast that touching anything wasn't necessary, i've only increased speed to 5.6 ghz because cpu can run this frequency and these low voltages. If it didn't i would stay on 5.4 ghz and would be as happy as the only difference you will see will be in 720p low cpu tests, nowhere else, in normal conditions where gpu is loaded by 99% there will be no difference, so you will only need to touch cache, oc it to 4.7 ghz and forget about it. OC ram at anything which runs up to 1.25v VDDQ/VDD2, 1.40-1.45v ram and that's it, i run at 7000 mhz on budget 'business' entry level z790 Pro-A from MSI and it can do anything these high end mobos can do which cost twice the price.

retry running your applications with powercfg /powerthrottling disable /path "full_path\exe_file.exe" - the lack of snapiness comes from Windows scheduler trying to move apps in the background to the e-cores.

I havent noticed any hitching at all working off of a 990 pro, are you referring to working off of an external USB device? Then perhaps it would be noticable. Is thunderbolt affected too?

I've actually been feeling those increased latency in my day to day tasks as well. This is especially apparent in file searches. Thank you for explaining it in this video. Can't wait for part 2

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

It`s not the latency he is talking about, that should be in the micro seconds. It`s not even latency he`s showing but more a kind of time out. Fot latency it takes way to much time. Latency is feel, what he is showing is wait.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 Normal computer users would say "my computer is slow" when what they mean is they click on something and have to wait too long before something happens. Clearly there is a delay of seconds which could be described as latency but is most likely the computer is waiting for something like an acknowledge signal. Perhaps due to timing it's missing the signal. A tweak to the driver by the developer on a system showing the problem would solve this. It's not some fundamental problem with the speed of the silicon or of moving functions from one bit of silicon to another. It's far less serious but very annoying.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

@@wayland7150 Absolutely, common sense well used. It`s not like you have to wait for garden gnomes to carry the bits around on the CPU die. It just doesn`t seem to sink in though.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

@@brugj03 I'm pleased that Brian is making a fuss about this problem because it seems a lot of people are suffering it. If it was actually a serious chip problem then everyone would be seeing that delay and it would never work well. It's just an unfortunate alignment of conditions on some machines. You need to be on a machine with the problem in order to solve it.

i haven't noticed the issues you had with my 12900k. My old pc has a 10900k with a z590 apex mobo and bdie ram. They both feel comparably snappy to me. Is there a test that can measure it better? Or something more repeatable?

@Gamevet

Жыл бұрын

Me too! I have an i9-10850K @ 5.2 Ghz in the living room for 4K gaming. My desktop is a 12900K @ 5.2Ghz, paired with a 144Hz /1440p display. They both feet very snappy!

@ilovehotdogs125790

Жыл бұрын

@@Gamevet yeah, i'm waiting for part 2 where he's going to go more in depth. My 12900k has the e-cores disabled, the uncore ratio at 4.9ghz , avx512, and the p-cores at 5.0ghz all core. It's also using tuned ddr4 bdie ram like the 10900k. Brian said he disabled the e-cores and it wasn't that. It's the "io driver." But none of the things he pointed out like ms word hanging up or file explorer lagging happened to me. So I have no idea how to repeat it. Both the 12900k and 10900k feel equally fast to me in daily usage. I used aida64 to measure the memory latency and my 10900k was at 36ns and my 12900k is at 46ns. So 10ns difference.. mayyybe it's that?? I don't notice that difference though.. the 12900k is still faster in all the games I play.

This is a great video. Last Intel CPU I bought was the 9700K, (which is still running strong in my daughter's PC). I went AM4 after that and have zero regrets. But I sometimes wondered if I should have stayed with Intel. I will wonder no more. Why does this not come up in some peoples' reviews? All I hear is that 12th and 13th Gen has caught up to AMD in sheer numbers. Why is this lag not reported? I too cannot stand any sort of lag. I am not saying my AM4 has none, but I don't notice any. Also, did you say wife? Congrats! None of our business, but I wonder if it is you are back with your son's mom or someone new. But again, none of our business, but a big congrats either way.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

He said his wife think's he's crazy. Not so good. My former wife calls me 'a strange man' in a well meaning way.

Had not that issue with a 12900K... maybe the motherboard is the main guilty there... used an ASUS TUF Gaming Z690-PLUS and all was fine, that issue wasn't there at all.

@muhammedalitoya1505

Жыл бұрын

Blaming the cpu for windows and bios related problems is just sad

Excellent video. I notice a bit higher latency when checking aida64 numbers compared to others with similar setups. I notice the only variable is manual memory tuning with timings that I’m just too lazy to mess with too much. 13600k a 5.6ghz e cores 4.4 e cores and 4.8 ring at 1.32v with 48gb 7400cl34 a die kit. Do you think memory tuning with manual timings is really worth it and have you noticed a difference with it ?

@michal1693

Жыл бұрын

IMO you are going to spend more time on memory tuning 7400c34 and stability testing than gaining time in real life during the entire life of the platform. Note 0.2% FPS gain in games is not actually a time gain, it's suppose fluidity gain. Purely a hobby.

This is very interesting

thank you

Does this problem apply to 12th gen i5's since they don't have e-cores within the chip? I don't seem to experience the lag that I see in this video. I have an i5-12500 cpu and windows 10. I will never upgrade to win 11 since they ruined the functionality of the taskbar. I am a power user.

Love that wood panels on the background wall.

It seems much more likely on or even multiple of these cause the delay(s): - Shell extension(s); could be a icon overlay extension that has to call-out to a service render its icon think sync utility showing the sync status via the icon - Filter driver; they can do lot and hence can slow things down a lot - AV (so a filter driver), because you didn't you work folders from on-demand scans Or some other thing along those lines. That's just what I thought of on top of my head. Anyway, I doubt IO throughput/sec has decreased with newer architectures.

@toseltreps1101

Жыл бұрын

it's about latency not throughput

@MarioMazzotti

Жыл бұрын

​@@toseltreps1101latency would hardly account for seconds of delay to list a directory

Does this apply to 12th gen Intel mobile CPU's? If so, it explains why my work laptop which has far more cores than my personal desktop with a 8th gen Intel feels so sluggish even doing basic tasks.

I had almost this exact issue at 6:00. Programs freezing for a few seconds, slow loading of directories, system becoming unresponsive when many io requests were made. I assume it was a problem PCIE bus having to correct errors, but it's odd how similar this is.

Please post part 2!

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

sunday, finished recording now, have to edit.

i notice this too when i upgraded to ryzen 5 3600 from old intel i5 2400, the snappiness of my new system isn't better than my old intel in fact it felt a bit slower, i always thought it's just something in my head

@Ben-Rogue

Жыл бұрын

When I went from a Ryzen 2700X to a 5700X I noticed it was so much snappier, though I don't tend to do large amounts of thread heavy multi tasking, but everything seems to respond practically instantly in everyday use

@RJARRRPCGP

Жыл бұрын

Matisse's latency is extremely often atrocious!

This is quite interesting. In 2021 i went from an i7 6700K to a Ryzen 5 5600X. And i noticed exactly what you showed in this video. The system was quite responsive, but sometimes folders would take a long time to load icons and things like that. In January 2023 i upgraded to an i7 13700k and an Asus Z690 motherboard. And all my "latency" related issues went away. Perhaps you could test 12th vs 13th gen to see if there is really a difference (im still using windows 10). Also there is something that no one has covered yet. Intel Z690 is rated for the same TDP as all the chipsets that came after Z170. But although they have massive heatsinks, they run pretty damn hot. I had to change the thermal pad and undervolt my Asus Z690 strix-e motherboard because the chipset was running at 80-90° C. In my previous build with the ryzen 5600x the chipset never went over 60°, and in my Asus Z170 maximus viii hero it barely hit 50°. I believe this is unacceptable, since the silicon die will probably tolerate those temperatures. But the solder will eventually die and let the PCH fail, leaving most of the people with a very heavy paperweight.

@memememine1

Жыл бұрын

I went from a 4770k to a 5600x and noticed the same thing about the responsiveness.

Spot on Bryan. This makes so much sense. I can stop ripping my hair out now.

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

Don`t. Brian is just pulling your leg, before you know you will loose that too.

great info

Interesting. I built my 'new' rig 2-1/2 years ago, a Z390 and 9900KF (which turned out to be a 'good' chip in terms of Vcore/clocks/power/temps), already two generations old at the time, but I was trying to save a few quid. Recently began to think I should have gone more 'future proof' with 11th gen and have been contemplating upgrading to 12th or 13th. This gives me pause.

I've deployed several 12th gen laptops and haven't seen this, are you sure it isn't something to do with those heavily modified windows installers you are using? Have you tried with a unmodified stock install of win 10 and 11?

I'm using a Erying Micro ATX board with an Intel 12900H CPU, & 32GB DDR4 3200Mhz RAM on Manjaro Gnome Linux, and so far it seems snappy enough for my needs without having to overclock it.

waiting for part 2

@techyescity

Жыл бұрын

sunday, finished recording now, have to edit.

Noted this allso last year and wondered was there something wrong with my system. What is Tech YES City's daily driver or go to setup for best latency in terms of cpu+mb+gpu+ram combo ?

very interesting

6:20 Hai... Congratz Brian.. wish you happy ever after with her & your child.

Demand is very high today, which unfortunately leads to a reduced quality of products in general.

This is the content we want!! 🎉

@brugj03

Жыл бұрын

Could be, if you like complete nonsense and disinformation.

i wonder if the 11th gen intel chips have the issue of latency?

TY so much I haven’t noticed it on my 12700k but I was on a pentium platform for like 10-12 years so that’s probably why I don’t notice.

Veeery interesting. I was considering either upgrading to 12th/13th gen or a 5800X3D, but I'm going to have to carefully reconsider now. I don't game that much, so latency is the one thing that bugs me on a daily basis. That said, an X3D CPU might still be key to relieving a bottleneck in one of the two games I play... but I have yet to have an X3D owner find that out for me.

@wayland7150

Жыл бұрын

A point to note about X3D is if you don't like 90C CPU temperatures then get a 240mm AIO. It will run happily at 90C with an air cooler and is fine as long as you don't let it worry you, probably best not to check the temperature.

@jarnom85

11 ай бұрын

Ryzen 5700X been very snappy for me, now im upgrading to 7800X3D and will see how it feels. All cpu's i have used in past 6 or so years 8700K, 3700X, QTJ0 ES (10980HK ES, basicly 10700K), 5600X and 5700X all been very snappy feeling. JayzTwoCents said something about Ryzen's feeling extra snappy compared to Intel.

@sergeyvinc1595

9 ай бұрын

@@jarnom85 How is your experience with 7xxx ryzen?

You used IOH and IO driver interchangeably, so I'll assume you mean the part of the system that includes the memory controller, PCIe root complex and the associated bus interfaces. 12th and 13th gen Intel Core CPUs are still monolithic, and the Intel datasheets say this functionality is still on-die. In fact they have even added USB-C and USB4 to the CPU die. So if it's not the IMC or PCIe controller that have been moved off-die, then what IO driver functionality is left to be removed? Windows search is at least partially a software issue. On more than one system I've typed in the name of a file I know I have somewhere and it simply never stops searching while sending the SSDs to 100% busy. Using the 'find' command in a Linux subsystem terminal is faster, or even searching from another system over samba

@prman9984

Жыл бұрын

I turn off Windows search and just use Void soft Everything.

Now I’m glad I’ve stuck with 10th gen!

Wife?? Did I hear that right? That’s awesome man.

I didn't even know this was an issue! This would affect my upgrade purchases.