I vaguely recall this myth being repeated in the BBC Documentary on Genghis Khan. Really surprised that this myth has rather modern origins, great work!

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

That BBC documentary (at least one of them which features this claim) is on KZread, and you can see on the credits that one of the consultants on it was James Chambers himself, and it basically lifts the description directly from his book.

@yourfinalhiringagency3890

Жыл бұрын

They never used this method on any historical documents, but they did encounter 2x the horo cloak which was an effective silk shield used to block arrows. There is an episode of deadliest warrior that recreated this with modern samurai that played in the late 90s. The arrows fell harmlessly and never tore the silk. I cannot find the clip. It’s reasonable to surmise a couple crafty perceptive individuals copied this method tho we would have heard of its mainstream use for sure. Silk was very valued and I can imagine soldiers of fortune who’d collected them wearing them at nearly all times to prevent theft till they could sell them. Or if their clothes on top of the silk were super itchy. Seriously tho silk draped over meat ain’t stopping jack.

It's over Tatar! I have stolen the Silk Shirt DLC!

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

😲

I have never been within 30 kilometres of a piece of silk in my entire life.

@endo_kun_da

2 жыл бұрын

You had me believing you until I read this comment.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

@@endo_kun_da I figure it would be a hard sell to convince people a Canadian who only wears plaid, white t-shirts and denim would have much silk in his wardrobe.

Also I don't really know if Prawdin's first book was called "Sturm über Asien," oder "der Sturm aus Asien," or if he spelled it "Tschingis-Chan" or "Dschingis Khan. " It looks like the publisher updated it at some point so there's a whole bunch of alternatives going about. It's basically the same thing but it will annoy all of 5 people who'll pay attention to it. The Prawdin-Nazi stuff is always weird but didn't really fit into the video here. Basically, it was really popular among some members of the Nazi party (like Himmler) who shared the book, gave it as gifts to others and recommended it, and got Prawdin to rerelease his first two books in one volume in 1938. It's unclear if Hitler himself ever read it, or if it actually had any bearing on German tactics or strategy of the period as is sometimes claimed. I think it's influence has been overstated in that regard. The best article on this is Richard Breitman's "Hitler and Genghis Khan," which you should find without too much googling.

Came here to heren you voice again. A year and a half of listening to the K&G podcast and now there is a new voice😔. Pleas com beck

I can remember way back in high school history class there was some mention, but very little details of attempts during WW1 to make bulletproof armour. These apparently included testing medieval style breastplates and other materials known to resist penetration, including layers of silk. This was all covered very briefly in a UK history GCSE textbook back in the 1990s and I've no idea what the name of the book was. If their sources were correct, this might suggest that the myth of silk being arrow resistant might have been well known in the 1910's. Edit, I wrote this before you brought up the wild west example, I didn't want to risk forgetting to add that point after watching the whole video.

0:02 hehe, "trotted out," dunno if that was an intentional horse joke, but it gave me a chuckle.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Just a bit of horseplay, really

Excellent piece of detective work!

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Glad you liked it!

I'm trying to think of this as a Mongol warrior being gifted some silk by a general. I would put aside a good deal for bridal gifts, give some to my wife, and if I have any left (and if it is appropriate) spend the rest on improving my arms, maybe a sword or some better armor, so I can repeat my great services for the Khan and get rewarded in the future. By the time I had a couple suits of armor, I might consider a silk lining on a gambeson for wearing in light duty when serious combat is not expected. But that's way down the hypothetical line of interest.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I think you have the right way to think about it. That's why I critiqued the people who assume everything has to have a military function. For actual people and not video-game characters, there's a lot of actual uses you would fine for silk in your life before "stopping arrows" would pop up. As I said, if you had enough silk to make an entire gambeson out of it, you could basically afford whatever armour you wanted to protect yourself.

Hello Jack ! Interesting video as usual ! Looking forward to see a video on the Mongols Heavy Cavalry and how well trained they were at close combat against Knights , Mamluks ..etc

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I've actually started collecting some information for such a video!

The second part looking at more uses of silk in armour can be watched here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/q5dqkqyph6bZmdY.html Do you agree with this? Do you have any alternate sources? If you do, be specific and say where you got them from; I'll call you out if you try and bullshit me on this one since I just looked through all this stuff. Full source list here (with primary, secondary sources and video links:) docs.google.com/document/d/1dDK9oVB7o2LWbT55Zlme1n2gsNomtBg91GUzYyAmxX0/edit?usp=sharing

@matthewsmith1779

2 жыл бұрын

I love the artwork in your videos.

@endo_kun_da

2 жыл бұрын

Convincing explanation

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

@@matthewsmith1779 Thank you, I'm glad you do!

@yourfinalhiringagency3890

Жыл бұрын

Check out the horo cloak.

The second part looking at more uses of silk in armour can be watched here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/q5dqkqyph6bZmdY.html

This can be easily debunked if we can find someone to wear silk and get shot by a Mongolian composite bow. The hardest part is finding volunteers.....

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Tell them if they live, they get to keep the silk. How could you turn down an offer like that?

@morganlefay195

8 ай бұрын

You, guys, are very funny!

Hi Jack, I don't want to argue this point that the Mongols wore silk shirts, but in Persian sources even before the Mongol era in the 10th and 11th century there are mentions of a protective shirt called Kheftan or Qazagand ("خفتان" یا "قزاگند") ( its Turkic equivalent is qalmaqaqi قلمقاقی) it was made of raw silk and wool and it was wore for protection against swordblows and arrows based on two Persian to Persian dictionaries, one Burhan-i Qati written in 1651 and one Dehkhoda dictionary 1931,but their definition is based on older sources like Farrukhi Sistani 1000 - 1040, Unsuri (death 1039), Ferdowsi Tusi 940 - 1019/1025, Asadi Tusi 1000 - 1073, and ĀDĀB AL-ḤARB WA’L-ŠAJĀʿA book written around 1230. in one of the chapters of this book the author states the type of arrowhead you should use against each type of armour.

Great video, it breaks my heart to see such amazing work not appreciated by the youtube hordes...

Mithril shirt - Mythril shirt

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I wish I had thought of that one, that's good

Do you have Mongol armour to test residual protection after arrow slows down in armour and hits the heavy silk layers under armour? Heavy silk padding under armour?

If the soldiers wore silk to "protect" against arrows, certainly many of them would be buried in their ineffective silk cocoons, presumably out in the middle of nowhere where the battlegrounds existed, which would be a waste of silk and money (rhymes with milk and honey). So, what about the silkworms ? Were they brought to Mongolia in these times ? The dynasty's favorite pets ? Were they warriors too, out for the battle ?

Great stuff! Well-researched. Sad how often I see this factoid passed around as truth, but it sounds cool so people just keep it going. I believed it myself for the longest time (having learned it from that same BBC documentary series and Chambers' book).

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

It's one of those things which gets repeated so often, it is easy to assume "well there has to be a source which says this, right?" It isn't the first time I've found something like this where seemingly, everyone kept thinking that. Unfortunately by the time people get around to looking into it, it's pretty thoroughly engrained into the public discussion.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's a good lesson in, if you want to make something believable, give all the base elements a grounding in truth so in this example, A) Evidence for Mongols wearing silk B) (modern) evidence of silk being use to stop projectiles And then assume that the Mongols are wearing A because of B. So not something pulled out of thin air, but with enough plausibility that people go "oh, that sounds about right."

wasnt the mongol empire given like 10k bolts of cloth and 10k bolts of silk, something absurd amount, plus whatever else in tributes every few years? i would assume many of those silks were made into clothes and some/most traded to persia/western asia im from the dariganga and grew up there, and silk wasnt all that too rare to see, even amongs the non-rich, and the ladies dressed in silk "deel" during the hot months/special occassions

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yes. The empire collected much more than that in tribute, and received considerable amounts annually in taxes. The Great Khan must have had an outstanding amount of it, and that's why we have so many sources describing how everything the Khan had was covered in it. Of course, we are also at the mercy of what is actually recorded in the sources. As far as it appears the value of silk as a product for the elite or as a form of currency was the primary usage, but that doesn't mean it was absolutely never worn by Mongols outside of that scenario. I could imagine looting a Chinese city, and one arban all walking away happily with silk robes for themselves and their families, or another Mongol general setting up trade contacts to provide his people with access to silk for this purpose (or putting his loot to this purpose). Obviously, not everything that ever happened was written down; maybe 800 years ago in what's now Dariganga Sum, you would also have seen many Mongols walking around all in silk too. If it wasn't a nice clothing to wear, people wouldn't keep wearing it!

The evidence of an army wearing padded armor made out of silk and other fabrics indeed existed, but it wasn’t the Mongols but the Song. During the battle of Yangping Pass in 1236 in northern Sichuan between Song general Cao Youwen’s army and the Mongol army, it was recorded that the 绵裘 worn by Cao’s soldiers had been badly soaked due to the heavy rainfall which decreased their protectiveness. It was a bloody battle both sides had significant casualties but the Mongols were able to prevail in the end due to numerical superiority because the Mongol general Wang Shixian brought in a relief cavalry force amidst the height of the battle, whereas Cao Youwen and his 2 brothers Cao Wan and Cao Youliang weren't as lucky because the Song didn't send any relief forces. The three Cao brothers fought valiantly and in the end all three died for their country.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't heard of this one. Is that in the Song shi? I'd love to check it out

@weifan9533

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Yes it's from Song Shi. Here's the original passage: 西軍素以綿裘代鐵甲，經雨濡濕，不利步閗。黎明，大兵益增，乃以鐵騎四面圍繞，友聞歎曰：“此殆天乎！吾有死而已。”於是極口詬罵，殺所乘馬以示必死。血戰愈厲，與弟萬俱死，軍盡沒，北兵遂長驅入蜀。

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

That's great, thank you. This is a great passage; it's short but the desperation, terror and emotion of the original situation comes across so clearly. One thing which has come across to me when learning the Mongols wars in China better, is how utterly horrific so much of it was. For the conquest of the Jin and Song, even though it gets dismissed in a lot of retellings as "quick and easy conquests for the Mongols," it's hard not to read it and get the feeling that every centimetre of ground was fought for and had blood shed on it.

How about velvet ? When did it come into fashion ?

Random nitpick. But it's unlikely that arrows pierced plate armor with any sort of regularity.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Did I indicate that somewhere in this video? I didn't think I made such a point but perhaps I unintentionally did and didn't realize. I thought I included that I thought even lamellar would be extreme difficult to pierce?

What is your origin story, meisterful Jack? Where does the obsession with Mongols come from? Cute Mongolian chick in elementary? Joe Rogan? The Dschingis Khan song by the band Dschingis Khan?

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

8 ай бұрын

Not so exciting as that, I'm afraid. Many many years ago I was first introduced to the Mongol Empire thanks to Conn Iggulden's "Conqueror" book series, which is a historical fiction series about the rise of Chinggis Khan. I really enjoyed it (I'm from a part of Canada that is geographically very similar to Mongolia, down to having few people and lots of horses) and wanted to learn more (basically, "oh this was real stuff?"). So I got a hold of Jack Weatherford's book "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World," soon after, and steadily over years and years added more to my library. Not until I started my undergraduate degree though did I transition to studying the period more seriously (and then this channel began soon after that). This year will be the seventh anniversary of this channel now.

If fabric shirts actually worked like this no state in the age would have spent half the treasury outfitting knights in 500 pounds of armor that they couldn't even get into or out of themselves.

@Raakarapu

2 жыл бұрын

More like 70 - 100 pounds. Most often paid for by the wearer. But yea hard to get on without a buddy.

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

It is suspicious that the Mongols would still keep wearing armour even though (according to some versions) they had these perfectly resistant silk shirts underneath. I find it convenient that some retellings specify having the shirt under the armour: basically so that the armour can do all the work of stopping the arrow and the silk shirt can be given the credit.

@samwill7259

2 жыл бұрын

@@Raakarapu My points is knights are heavy and expensive. If ANY state could get the same results with cloth shirts and helmets they'd snap that up in an instant.

@Raakarapu

2 жыл бұрын

@@samwill7259 I know, and its a valid point. Just nitpicking on the details.

@samwill7259

2 жыл бұрын

@@Raakarapu Yea, I tend to exaggerate for the sake of the joke and it doesn't come across well in text. No biggie.

Mongols produced silk of their own. And it could also be found in large quantity from China to Karokum. Silk wanst too rare or expensive in East and Inner Asia.

Try my boy try

Of course silk fabric will not stop an arrow. Additionally much of the testing that I have seen on KZread is ridiculous and does reflect how silk works. Essentially, silk works after arrows penetrate Mongle's armor and padding, the arrow head has significantly slowed down in speed, catching and drawing the silk into the wound "if" the arrow slowed down enough. That is it and it is obvious that silk is not going to stop arrows. The "twisting" effect on the silk by the arrow is also obviously false as the spinning arrow will essentially stop spinning as it penetrates the armor. Lastly, of course not all Mongle's would have the ability to acquire expensive silk, especially the average grunt. The devil is in the details.

Cmon now....alll Hollywood knows that....😖🙄🤣...therefore we know cause we faithfully ingest the Hollywood doctrines...

@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

2 жыл бұрын

According to Hollywood, full plate harness won't even stop an arrow; what hope will a silk shirt have?