"the thane is a small target" definite grudge

@Shane2020xxx

Жыл бұрын

“The dwarves just have SO MUCH capture weight” “that’s a grudgin’”

@Prophetofthe8thLegion

Жыл бұрын

SHORT???

The Empire: Sigmar bless these greatswords! The Dawi: And who blessed yer Sigmar? Eh? EH?

@Morbak546

Жыл бұрын

That would be Ulric stunty

@AA-vr8ez

Жыл бұрын

@@Morbak546 book

13:29 lol the sound that Gelt's staff made when he bonked that poor dwarf

Greatswords have the speed of huge, hardy 120 armour Chaos Warriors, or 120 armour dwarven units, with their stumpy little legs.

@notarealperson8956

Жыл бұрын

Which really just shows how comically slow chaos warriors are. Yes, they wear the heaviest armor in the setting, but theyre also superhuman and can carry it no problem, they should be faster.

@SomeGuy-hb7kj

Жыл бұрын

Yeah but the fact that somehow they have worse melee and defence stats than swordsmen is really something that should be addressed and changed

@notarealperson8956

Жыл бұрын

@@SomeGuy-hb7kj yea, they should be about equivalent.

@AbyssWatcher745

Жыл бұрын

@@SomeGuy-hb7kj that's just ridiculous

@SomeGuy-hb7kj

Жыл бұрын

@@AbyssWatcher745 y?

Turin going to keep hunting that white whale of an Empire build that beats Dwarves. It's always a blast to see.

When you play the matchup near perfectly, but it's so imba anyways to begin with. That it doesn't matter anyways.

GELT IS SUPREME! This message is brought to you by the entire population of Solland

@Ellebeeby

Жыл бұрын

So just howling winds and tumbleweed?

Greatswords feel like a 700g at best and the Empire really need an actual (Armored) anvil piece. Even a pricey Full plated sword and board infantry would be a real blessing by Sigmar./

@iansalsich6508

Жыл бұрын

Reiksguard knights on foot would be sweet. And yeah, I agree with you on the greatswords

@thepiousskeleton6046

Жыл бұрын

@@iansalsich6508 Dismounted Reiksguard were a unit in tabletop so that's within the realm of possibility

@pffabio

Жыл бұрын

I think armoured soldiers dont fit the empire like cavalry doesnt fit the dwarfs. Everyone has theyre on style

@Ranziel1

Жыл бұрын

It's their weak point, but that's the point, isn't it? Asymmetry is crucial to Total War.

@chasewilson3693

Жыл бұрын

@@Ranziel1 There is a difference between having a weak point and missing a critical piece on the board. Playing empire, except for exceptionally few match ups, is like playing chess without knights.

Jade Warriors get 80/90 armor, Harmony, and Formation attack/MD bonus for 500 gold. Empire gets naked glorified chaff for 400 gold. The Empire has been power crept so hard. An actual armored infantry variant would help them out so much, but at the very least the current state troops need either a stat buff or cost reduction.

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

Worth noting that the Jade Halberds are much more reasonably priced for the stats when compared to Empire Halberds. Less an example of empire being powercrept and more an example of how underpriced Jade Warriors are currently. Easily a 600 cost unit.

If only the ror greatswords were a thing...also, i feel like they REALLY need a solid buff, and buff, and not just cost reduction, those lads suppose to be elite of the elite.

@Remixersoloman

Жыл бұрын

Elite of the elite of normal humans

@nelsonhill4625

Жыл бұрын

@@Remixersoloman the smartest idiot lol

@ToyMachine1o1

Жыл бұрын

@@Remixersoloman Not a good reason; but definitely an overused one

@Remixersoloman

Жыл бұрын

@@ToyMachine1o1 it's a perfectly fine reason. Humans are not very powerful melee wise in warhammer, and their elite infantry shouldn't be on par with elite dwarves/elves/chaos/GS. I'd say a leadership and speed buff and maybe a slight MA/MD buff to put them above swordsmen a bit would be fine along with a small cost reduction.

@grimdarhk

Жыл бұрын

@@Remixersoloman they're worse than celestial dragon guards. Which is horseshit. They need a rather significant buff.

What amazing commentary! I have never heard someone with so much passive aggresive distain for greatswords in not just their actions (friendly fire with magic and artillery) but in their commentary as well! Great stuff 😆

Two Empire Captains cost 2 x 350 gold. And that 700 gold got Turin 174 kills on Dwarfs! That's pretty good value and you can add six points of capture weight and general annoyance to that value. Two Thanes are 2 x 500 gold. They had worse luck by getting isolated in bad situations, but still they are so cheap that they just came back to hold down an objective. That is also pretty good! I also think those armoured, shielded foot heroes are like monstrous infantry in the sense that having them fight in friendly infantry is going to make them perform even better. Two Thanes and a unit of Miners or Dwarf Warriors on an objective is going to be so hard to dislodge without elite AP infantry.

Damn. Had like 10k on the field to their 4k for the entire game after those first few minutes and still couldn't squeeze out the win. Crazy build though. It worked really well.

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

The 10k to 4k metric is misleading since Turin spent 5k on artillery that provided no capture weight. Remove that and the value difference is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 (before counting handgunners and Grenade Launchers) so in terms of capture weight on the field Turin ended up only slightly ahead, and not enough to force a triple cap.

@SnipaWolfe

Жыл бұрын

@@spellbound1875 At the end of the game, all of the artillery had been withdrawn.

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

@@SnipaWolfe What's the difference between a unit you withdraw or a unit your opponent kills on the game state? Neither a dead or recalled unit contributes to capturing or holding a point so I'd argue there is no difference, hence the value lead is misleading. 5000 gold Turin spent was removed from the field and at best it earned ~7000 gold. That's still a solid advantage but 2000 is easily within the range where unit choice can result in a capture weight deficit even with a value lead. Two Reiksguard at over 2000 cost get outcapped by 2 dwarf warriors at 900. If the value difference of units which influence capture points is only around 2000 gold then in practical terms Turin's lead was much more tenuous and his extremely elite build didn't provide the necessary follow up.

@SnipaWolfe

Жыл бұрын

@@spellbound1875 My point is that the 10K value on the field did not include artillery. I don't know what the rest of your comment is meant to tell me. I understand arty does not sit on points and I understand cap weight differences. I'm just telling you he had 10k on the field to 4k and still lost. Your second comment doesn't follow your first. I am not mentioning value earned at all because it does not matter.

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

@@SnipaWolfe Oh you're talking about the mods measure of the value of remaining units on the field! Sorry my bad I thought you were comparing value earned which is a metric I use more often to roughly approximate how much of an enemies overall resources have been destroyed over a game. I don't know how the mod measures live army value so I'm not sure how accurate it is (does it include health rather than entities and ammo in the calculation like army losses?), but even assuming it is accurate unit cost and capture weight aren't related. Value on the field doesn't really tell us about the capture situation. A better metric is the number of units on the field, which never dropped much below even over the course of the game and often favored the dawi. Basically the only point of comment two that's relevant is the Reiksguard vs dwarf warrior price to capture weight comparison. Builds which spend a lot of their gold on missiles/artillery/elite units have less to budget for capture tools. Turin's build had about 60 usable capture weight, whereas the dwarfs had more than 110. Turin had half the available capture weight as his opponent because he spent 5000 gold on units with 0 capture weight and then an additional 2000 on units with difficult to utilize capture weight. Earning a value advantage therefore provided him limited benefit. Cutting 1 rocket for 3 spearmen would have increase his total capture weight by 25% while still allowing him to earn a sizable value advantage.

Daddy Gelt! Nice! FOUR HELLSTORMS! outstanging! Greatswords??!!?? Turin you are spoiling me at this point!

Turin calling a Thane a small target has earned him a special place in the book.

Empire and dwarves from Turin, I knew this would be a good day

pretty sure the greatswords at 7:14 got friendly fired by the sunmaker

Great batrep. Thanks for all the theory and explanation. It was a bit sickening watching all that fire rain down on those poor dwarfs, and them not being able to do anything in return. .

It just never felt that 6-8k value lead. It also looked semi close on the field, that's nuts.

My best use battle line against dwarves is actually foot warrior priests + halberdiers. You still suffer against the dwarf blasting charges, but the attack bonus on the AP halberds mulches dwarf lines and the leadership buff keeps them in line.

@precious0_0

Жыл бұрын

Blasting charges don’t have huge AP ratio, so halberds with much lower armour will suffer substantially more than greatswords. Don’t know how that would affect value trading though, I am by no means a multiplayer guy

With the damage value, you have to consider the artillery pieces that run out of ammunition and are effectively a dead unit, but aren't actually killed by the dwarfs

awesome tactic; thinking heavy cav could come in when you desummon the hellstorms with that much extra gold overwhelming a point should be easy ^^ maybe a bunch of rifle horses as well^^

I wonder if a single mortar traded for one of the hellstorms might be slightly more accurate vs the dawi just for a test

@tobiasL1991

Жыл бұрын

Funnily enough they aren't... Their long arc makes them miss very often. And they deal damage stupidly slow. It's never picked for a reason.

God i love your casting your voice is so fluid showing how much you know about the game! His come back was quite good tho ! WAs happy to see balthazar again but felt like his bombardments is what cost you the game a bit, most of them not effective and the one destroying your reikgsard :/ Good week-end pal !

What an incredible match! Great fun!

Gg! Hard to triple cap on black ark. Greatswords sadly only good on defense as you say; swords and flaggelants better on offense for the price. I also think the timing one the artillery unsummons can make for some important big pushes. And when you think about it if you’re 3k up after unsummoning all those units you’re basically just braking even.

Absolutely nuts that you can hold a 7k point lead for the entire game and still get beat, this matchup is wild. I think against someone like this who is in your league you basically need to play to perfection and they need to make mistakes like losing that gyrobomber. You were up by so much yet it looked even or in his favor the whole time if you ignore the stats in the top left I don't see this matchup being close to even until we get GS cost reduction and dismounted reiksguard. Either way a very nice attempt and a perfect showcase of the imbalance between these factions!

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

It's important to remember that the artillery units don't actually provide capture value and Turin desummoned them which removes them from the battle. When you account for the ~5000 gold in artillery units who only contribute by removing your opponents value the comparison of usable value only gives Turin about a 1500-2000 gold lead (probably less since grenade launches and handgunners weren't regularly on points). Still an advantage but a lot smaller than it looks. Over-investing in ranged assets is functionally indistinguishable from being behind in value since they don't impact the game state. Cutting a Hellstorm for two pistoliers or some spearmen would have made Turin's build stronger.

@renzbolado153

Жыл бұрын

​@@spellbound1875 Sorry but the way you've tried to rationalize this still doesn't make any sense to me. In any other matchup where units use the majority or all of their ammunition in ideal targets, which in this match were either ideal or at least "good", it clears the way for your infantry to claim the objective. I would also argue that because those units were unsummoned and refunded a portion of their cost, his relative value to his opponent (considering all the artillery ammo were spent on non-single entities) should've made the following troops he summoned more resource efficient too. You can't say having a 7k point lead (whether inflated or not) in any other matchup is a bad or over-investment, whatever the enemy have left should at the very least not put up such a tenacious fight, or in most other matchups straight up lose. Are we going to forget the dwarf player also left 3 units AFK on the isolated objective, or that the gyrocopter was immediately taken out of the game before it could do anything? It's not like Turin couldn't have played it better, there's always better, but this is obscene. How is it reasonable to have a lead so large that's its basically unheard of in most high-tier matches and still effectively say "oh, but actually"

@renzbolado153

Жыл бұрын

@@spellbound1875 Is it not too unreasonable to watch this and say, "empire's infantry are in dire need of cost reduction or buffs" and just leave it there? because dwarves aren't exactly top-tier factions right now, but the consistency of empire's infantry shortcomings is noticeable in virtually every match

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

@@renzbolado153 " In any other matchup where units use the majority or all of their ammunition in ideal targets, which in this match were either ideal or at least "good", it clears the way for your infantry to claim the objective." You answered your own question. Claim the points with what? 6000+ of his army was unsuited to capturing points and Turin even remarked that he was not able to resummon the artillery in the late game since it wouldn't positively impact the game state. Even with the recouped value Turin didn't summon a lot of capture weight often reinvesting in ranged units to kill dwarfen infantry. Having less ranged units and more capture tools would have allowed him to actually capitalize on the value lead he'd built. Beyond that when you point out the blunder with the gryocopter or the AFK dawi units, neither of those things mattered because Turin wasn't threatening to capture the Dawi's natural point. Value leads only matter if you have a local advantage which puts you in a winning position. There are many, many cases of games being lost with a huge value lead because one player had sufficient capture weight. It's just a basic part of army building and hence why my suggestion was to cut 1 rocket and add some capture tools. A 1k value lead which results in a capture weight advantage is more useful than a 7k value lead which doesn't. Mind you in this match up Turin accurately assessed he could have won by more proactively pursuing a double cap, which when he did so he easily gained. The value lead made a difference but you can't expect to win dom matches simply based on value leads. You have to be able to capture points.

@spellbound1875

Жыл бұрын

@@renzbolado153 I mean, Turin barely brought infantry. He had 4 greatswords and in the end barely had 3 out on the field. Everything else was a missile unit or a hybrid. Cav and SE's get less capture weight for the price you can't rely on them. Whether or not empire infantry need a buff (Greatswords clearly need something but otherwise I think the issue tends to be how other units are balanced. Blasting Charges are clearly overperforming for example.) wasn't what decided the outcome of this game. Turin didn't have enough capture weight to force a triple cap so playing for one was a bad strategy. There isn't going to be a world where empire infantry are better than dwarf infantry, that's always a weakness for the empire. You still need to bring some to capture and hold points. Swordsmen, spearmen, and Flagellants are going to lose and trade badly in this match up and yet you still need to bring them. Missiles/artillery are always going to support infantry and cavalry. TLDR The reason I don't think it's reasonable to stop at saying "empire infantry need some help" is that doesn't explain the game outcome well even if it is true.

Maybe a final transmutation at the end there when they were blobbed up

Wow, this is like OG domination mode where point control matters 100x more than value lead here.

I wonder I witch hunter accusation play might be good against dwarves?

Empire should get to use any of their elector units in MP. I mean, cost any unit correctly and nothing would be OP. If anything, all state troops should have a cost reduction and I agree with the speed boost for great swords. I do wonder if a hell blaster, hugging either side of the map, would have been effective

Interesting to see Reiksguard in this match. What was the reason for going with a couple of them and one empire knight as opposed to just knights, I was under the impression they were the less cost efficient option in most matches?

@shaneomahony5469

Жыл бұрын

I think empire knights are mainly used as roadblock pieces to stop fast units getting into your back line, when fighting the dawi you dont really need that and instead the better attacking capabilites of the rieksguards is more valuable as the trade with dwarf warriors much better. Idk just my opinion

Sad to see Kruber's iron shields fighting Bardin and the zulunbaki

In land battles I have had luck with 2x Steam Tanks and the Hellstorm RoR. Just kite and blast everything, and the tanks can take objectives maybe. Haven't tried it in dom

Noobie question: Would it be great if you actually have a pre-build army you can't when you play ladder? you would also be able to "ban" some faction you don't want to play against. That would make build more well rounded and less about countering some faction, pushing more creative army. What you think?

omg the fkin thumbnail 🤣 dank af

Just a thought, how about wounds reducing capture weight?

value seems to be very misleading in this matchup because a ton of the empires value is in artillery ammo when it shows you you have 4k value lead, but 2 empty helstorms and an empty sunmaker, you are about even

Would a couple of warrior priests be helpful in this matchup? Pair them up with a greatsword unit each, using gran hammer of sigmar to buff the MA to make them cut trhough the dwarfs faster

@maximilianovazquez9988

Жыл бұрын

@TextOnBestgram_TurinYT Lol first thing i though when I saw the thumbnail. Now I gotta watch it!

How would the glorious memetank fare against the Dawi, shoving them around and blasting them all over the domination?

How miners can trade with greatswords only god knows. Even with the optimal start it felt almost impossible to win

Holy rockes

I miss Empire Old Day that being All Round Faction. Nowadays Empire really Focus on Ranged Skirmish.

Such an aesthetically cool build too just gunpowder sexy heavy cav and infantry

I get why greatswords were picked, but unless they're getting juiced up by a priest or an arch lector or buffed with magic, I find them very hard to make money back on. Honestly think cheap infantry is the way to go in this match up, just to road block and get points while your other units deal damage. Might be worthwhile to invest into a steam tank, as they can just cause so much chaos in a back line if let loose, and it doesn't get torn to shreads if shot with hellrockets, unlike those poor greatswords.

FOR THE EMPRAH

Crazy how such value lead barely meant anything.

Biggest mistake was thinking empire could beat dwarves....got to be the most one sided match up in the game.

Some things are meant to stay undiscovered. So don't tinker too much about countering dwarves...unless you want to get into the book :P.

At the end you literally had three times as much value according the modded ui.

stank terror route strat?

I haven't really played W3. Is the Wood Elf Vs Dwarf matchup still complete garbage for the wood elves?

This is goin’ in the book!

faith: check steel: check gundpowder: oh yeah!

Stop abuse RoflanBuldiga!

man I thought the rocets had bad accurecy in W2, but this is a joke lol

why is he called pierogi king ?

so sad to see a losss like this. nothing you could do

Id love to see an empire buff

My autoplay somehow brought me here and boyyyy..... I've never felt so lost. If someone told me that this was just someone reading a text message that was created by only using predictive text, I would believe it. I'm more of a CONNECT FOUR level gamer.

Greatswords could do with a -100 cost reduction.

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, that puts them on par with White Lions price-wise which is reasonable

Beautiful Dawi win

Empire desperately needs foot Reiksguard. A proper holding unit like every other faction.

@Vahkitauti

Жыл бұрын

They've got guns and cavalry and artillery, unlike every other faction

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

'Every other faction' the Bretonnians are hiding in the bushes over there. Honestly a few others like GS and DE don't really have practical holding infantry either

The empires faction trait is supposedtly their combined arms right? Yet they lack crucial units like heavy infantry that is actually good. Or monstrous infantry. Or monsters. Or an airforce. Why is that? WHy do certain factions get traits but others dont?

@MrVarder

Жыл бұрын

Because that is what makes the game fun. Want absolute equality in roster, go play chess.

@aziouss2863

Жыл бұрын

@@MrVarder Dude read what i said back. Very slowly this time. Focus on every word. Maybe you will understand. Plus chess is not equal there is difference since a player has to start first!

@MrVarder

Жыл бұрын

@@aziouss2863 empire has its own share of cool toys, like, grenades & tanks. Empire also has the best (second best?) artillery in the game and pretty good gunlines. Empire being good at everything and not the best at anything is pretty fucking lore accurate. Now, I want you to reread what I said before, very slowly. Focus on every word I said. One of them was "roster". Think long and hard about what it means, consult a dictionary if it gets too hard. But I believe in you.

@bacnguyen9304

Жыл бұрын

@@MrVarder Empire right now is really bad, they have good artillery is because they have the sun maker anything else is just mediocre. Empire canon loose to Dwarf and Cathay canon hard, the Tank is literally a meme unit with MD lower than skaven slave, mortar deals damage so slow that they are unusable, hellblaster is incredibly situational and Lumi is also meme unit. The problem with the Empire now is they are power crept(Lizardmen also suffers from the same problem), their units is just so inefficient, Greatsword and Demi are prime example. State troops before are very cost efficient infantry but now there are many basic infantry units that are so much better while cost only a fraction more than them. Their missile core except for wagons are very easy to shutdown. The Empire is a faction that struggle with high armour (because all of your armour piercing tools are so squishy)and in the game mode that prioritize grinding like domination everyone is going to bring armour. Their faction ability,Hold the line, is useless, they are struggling and you can see it on Turin stream when he show faction win rates.

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

Empire absolutely is a combined arms faction. It's just one where a number of their units (notably stuff like the steam tank) don't perform well in MP. They don't need CA to make up goofy monstrous infantry/monster units to make them more versatile. That completely changes what the faction is supposed to be

4th of july showdown???

@lemonandapples4526

Жыл бұрын

Rockets

I mean you say greatswords need buffs, but stormvermin exist, cost more, and do less

i think greatswords perform as designed but i think they are over priced 900g is way too much for what they can do and how easily they get crumped. i think they need a hefty cost reduction like maybe 200g less, that or maybe make them deal more damage but im more a fan of a cost reduction.

Wow, it's actually sad to see how pathetic empire are, to lose after a 8k army balance advantage :/

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

If you put all of your value into artillery with no capture weight that can happen

@Lightzy1

Жыл бұрын

@@silverhost9782 3 units of artillery don't cost 8k ....

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

@@Lightzy1 No shit sherlock

@Lightzy1

Жыл бұрын

@@silverhost9782 .... sarcasm should be restricted to people with high IQs. Sometimes it's an actual shock to me to see how stupid people can be while still thinking they're clever. Incredible.

@silverhost9782

Жыл бұрын

@@Lightzy1 'Sarcasm should be restricted to people with high IQ' Way to make yourself sound like an insufferable idiot bud. How embarrassing

Guys it is time we have to finally admit the fact that Empire sadly in this current state, suck in multiplayer. From a supposedly versatile faction with diverse play style and decent units all round, has been downgraded to war wagon spam and sun maker if these two fail then you loose the game. Everything else in your roster is so inefficient or just bad, your infantry suck and disappear in a blink when something touch them, Demigryphs is just as bad as greatsword, missile core is ok but can get so easily shut down even missile cav except the wagons. If not for the hellstorm the Empire artillery is also mediocre, mortar suck, canon get out traded by every other counter battery tools, hellblaster incredibly hard to use and luminark is already a meme since forever, on top of that if the enemy has lord that can stalk and cast magic then you can just say goodbye to your arty. If you want to have the Empire experience but without the suffering , then you should just play Cathay they have everything the Empire has to offer and also much better in every way. Factions like Lizardmen and Empire are power crept so hard and really need some love.

There are two things I didn't like about how you handles this particular battle: 1. You stuck the captains in to pin down the infantry blob. Great! But then you didn't use the arty on that blob, which was an ideal target. 2. Conversely, you let the arty shoot the enemies that were engaged with the greatswords, thus dealing friendly fire, or simply let them shoot single units/stragglers, thus dealing suboptimal damage. Yes, the enemy will constantly try to engage your numerous regiments, to try to avoid giving you an ideal target and make you suffer friendly fire. But this is why you need to constantly be switching targets with your arty, ensuring it is always firing on them isolated big blobs that are only fighting 1-2 single characters of your own

This is soo stupid. . . the fact empire couldn't win.