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Your college coach Mel Purcell was no joke, he had victories over Ivan Lendl, Boris Becker, Stan Smith, llie Nastase, Andrés Gómez, and Brian Gottfried, and nearly beat Jimmy Connors at Roland Garros in 1981.

@IntuitiveTennis

9 ай бұрын

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Another consideration. The classic style (which when I learned to play was called "the correct technique") was developed when the top players used dead wood rackets with tiny heads and tiny sweet spots, with the most important tournaments played on often bad grass. The bounce on grass was not only low and fast, but it was often unpredictable. So even the top players couldn't know until the last moment exactly where the ball was going to be. That meant you had less time for preparation no matter how far back you stood to receive the ball, and making clean contact was a challenge even for the best players -- most of whom were amateurs and therefore had limited time for training and practice (they had to drive from tournament to tournament). Back then, most recreational players were taught the pros' classic technique but failed to replicate it. The recreational game was dominated by pushers with the patience to just block/chop the ball back with short, punchy, volley-like strokes. OK, now with stiff, big-headed rackets the sweet spots are much larger. A pro can hit the ball with a glancing blow and still regularly make clean contact. And a glancing blow can mean heavy topspin -- which allows the player to throw his whole body into every shot. But you know what? Even with a stiff-bigheaded, giant sweet-spot racket I still struggle to make clean contact consistently. Why? Because instead of training for 4 hours a day I play for maybe four hours a week. And not least because, as an athlete I suck. Even though the court yields predictable bounces I still can't predict where the ball will be until the last moment because my dynamic vision and 3-D space conception ain't so good. My balance and timing isn't so good, either. I'll never be hitting the ball with speed anything like what today's pros do. If I could just hit with as much power as the pros of the 1970s that would be wonderful! And that means I shouldn't need heavy topspin to provide an artificial curve to keep it in -- mere gravity will give my slower much flatter shots the same shape as todays' pros' faster balls. But compared to pros of the classic era, the much more powerful rackets of today will allow me to get that same power with FAR LESS backswing. All I need to do is drop the racket a couple of feet behind the anticipated contact point and then moderately rotate my hips and shoulders into the ball. That means I can prepare later. That means I can make clean contact while hitting through the ball (instead of block-chopping it like a crappy athlete of the 1970s). In the old days, the classic technique was optimal for the pros because the courts and their rackets sucked. Nowadays, even with modern rackets and hard courts, the classic technique is optimal FOR ME. It will give me cleaner contact with the ball (no amount of topspin can make up for a bad miss-hit). And the easier timing will let me control the ball -- so I can use strategy. The minimal backswing will even let someone like me sometimes take the ball on the rise.

@vijaynarsapur147

5 ай бұрын

you are someone that genuinely understands this game...there is no MODERN, but there is such a thing as BEST FIT !!!

I am 71. I have been playing tennis since I was 12. Naturally, I modeled my technique after the top level players of the time - the Continental grip with the laid back wrist knuckle on top. Back when Agassi (and others like him) came along several pros tried to get me to learn to use the western or semi-western and to put that loop into my swing. I could not do that because my muscle memory was so imbedded - foot position, movement, backswing, forehand and backhand all very classic in form and impossible for me to change. It would have required going back to beginner level tennis - hours upon hours which I could not spare (as a working adult) in order to play the "modern game". I managed to get to the 3.5 rating and maintained that rating for a very long time. It would not have made sense for me to make that change as a mostly recreational player. I played USTA league tennis for some years and entered some club and city tournaments and did ok for myself as a 3.5 player. I never had unrealistic expectations of actually winning a tournament. I usually won my first match and sometimes I even won my 2nd match...once I came very close to winning a 3rd match in a tournament. Today I rarely play tennis but when I do I instinctively go to the Continental grip...and just try to have a good little hit back and forth with a like minded person. A 10 shot rally is great fun and I am quite satisfied with myself with that. Nice steady pace, not a lot of lateral movement nor forward and back much - just nice easy forehands and back hands and sometimes taking a short ball on a 2nd bounce just to sustain the rally. I love it still. I will do volleys as well but I always just try to feed the ball back to my hitting partner in order to sustain the rally. 60 to 90 minutes of that is all I want and need really. The only "modern" elements to my tennis would be my racquet, strings, shoes and clothing. LOL - no short legged tennis whites for me!

@Better_Call_Raul

10 ай бұрын

Mac was still playing in 1990 and there were relatively modern racquets at that time. So I don't quite understand why Mac was not adapting his style and using a loop. To be clear, I am a 4.0 level player and the forehand is one of my stronger shots but I have trouble incorporating a loop and am more comfortable using a similar Mac straight back style. With an Eastern grip that is very close to the Continental grip Mac is using. So what exactly is the reasoning that coaches strongly advise me to incorporate a loop? Not saying that I disagree with the advice. I would like a loop. Just want to understand the reasoning for a loop.🤔

@BurnsTennis

7 ай бұрын

@@Better_Call_Raul That's an interesting question. Tennis changes all of the time. I learned with graphite racquets. I was looking at the 90s players. I will give you an example so you can get a picture. When Sampras played two players, Agassi and Courier in particular, watch the majority of their rallies closely. Agassi or Courier hits a serve or Sampras hits a 2nd serve (when he used to stay back), immediately both players retreat to their backhand corner, and the rallies become diagonal. Then it became a game of noughts and crosses, or chess (depending how you look at it). Who is going to go down the line first to open up the court. Before that scenario, they are either hitting backhands back and forth, or running around their backhands to hit inside out forehands. And that's where the changes become most transparent. To hit inside out forehands, you can't really be face on, they are more open and fade the ball accross their body, and their stance is what we would call semi open. Connors and McEnroe have to hit their forehands with closed stances, therefore I would imagine neither hit inside out forehands with any regularity. For whatever reason, the kids in the 1980s were being taught with the loop and a semi open stance. I can only assume because the open throat graphite racquets opened up much more possibilities than the wood racquets Connors and McEnroe grew up with. Having said that, Lendl is the same age as McEnroe and yet his forehand had most of the modern characteristics, but he played the type of game they play today, well behind the baseline and he wants time. Mats Wilander also had a more modern style and stance.

@Better_Call_Raul

7 ай бұрын

@@BurnsTennis IIRC, Lendl had a pendulum-like back swing which I find quite comfortable. Yet most coaches today would not approve of the Lendl take back... I find it rather difficult to create a loop on the back swing. Takes more effort to raise the racquet. Yes, you do get the gravity assist on the forward swing but I think I can get the same gravity assist with a pendulum back swing... And yes the game evolves at the elite level but that does not necessarily justify imposing those styles on rec players. Lendl had a monster forehand that dominated the ATP using that pendulum back swing.

@BurnsTennis

7 ай бұрын

@@Better_Call_Raul Yes that's true. I think Mr Intuitive Tennis was trying to get that across, it depends on what the rec player feels most comfortable doing. Only if they want to change they should try. My personal opinion is that the stance is probably more imprtant than any swing style. A semi open stance slightly to the left of the centre line (for a righty) will immediately open up more possibilities. But that does rely on having a certain level of athleticism to cover the forehand side. But it does give more options. I don't find the "Next Gen forehand" an inspirational shot. Too many of those guys hit off the backfoot predominantly, they are going to suffer a lot of injuries especially around the hip and arm areas.

@Better_Call_Raul

7 ай бұрын

@@BurnsTennis I stand corrected. I thought Lendl had a pendulum take back similar to Mac. But Lendl does not really have a pure pendulum take back nor does he make the traditional "C" shape on the back swing. Lendl incorporates a pendulum-like back swing but he also raises his elbow very high on the take back. It is, in many ways, quite similar to the so-called next gen forehand such as Jack Sock. 🤔 kzread.info/dash/bejne/rGeYvJKrntLbmM4.html

I spoke to Johnny Mac once and he told me that his weakness was the high backhand. He could take every other shot early, using his unique grip (an AUSTRALIAN grip, as explained by Ellsworth Vines), and use his wrist to re-direct the ball and get to the net. If you watch videos of Mats Wilander playing Mac, Mats, known as the smartest player of his time, hit almost every ball as a heavy topspin to the Mac BH. I think it was Mats, who led the H2H 7-6. Connors said he had a "girl's game", and his FH was his weaker side. Ellsworth Vines said the reason Borg and Jimmy dominated was because the older guys had neglected the baseline game, and became too reliant on the serve and volley. He said that only Kramer could get away with this because his second serve was impossibly good. He could hit it in the BH corner consistently with kick. Borg and Jimmy had reawakened the baseline game, and no one had the know-how to deal with it until Mac came along.

While McEnroe did use a Continental (hammer) grip, Connors actually used a semi-Western grip, but unlike other semi-Western grippers, he hit the ball flat or with a bit of underspin, rather than the exaggerated topspin that players typically use a semi-Western grip for. McEnroe, on the other hand, was absolutely unique; according to most coaches at the time, he did everything "wrong," but unlike any other player I have ever seen (and I've seen a few ;-)), McEnroe used the racket like a baseball player uses a glove; it was nothing more than an extension of his arm and hand. Though I detested his attitude, his game was an absolutely beautiful thing to observe. I'm really hoping we eventually see another player like that someday, one who is so successful that the serve-and-volley game comes back. Maybe that will make modern tennis more watchable. I can't watch the modern game. All the robots hit the ball the same way; the only difference between them is their names...

@IntuitiveTennis

Жыл бұрын

Connors did not use a semi-western grip

@artificial_commenter

9 ай бұрын

Why do ppl think connors used semi western? Like that’s so ridiculous. He used basically continental for everything

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

yes, I hope for a different game as well, but we need technological rules for that, like smaller head size (

Great video. Professional tennis players know how to change their grip when the situation forces them to. I do the same. I play with semi-western forehand grip, but when the short ball surprises me, I can hit forehand with eastern grip, and that's actually the best possible decision. Small changes are the hardest to adopt. Just look at how many times tennis players change their grip to continental when the ball is so fast in the corner, so the only option they have is a forehand slice.

That is a funny story my friend, I played down in Key Biscane Jrs while the Lipton was going on, and I personally meant John, Aaron Krickstein, Boris Becker, and John was practicing with Boris and Krickstein was standing on the with John, and Boris, and they ripped balls at the net at John and he made both guys look ridiculously silly and they had so much fun practicing and I got a chance to talk to all 3 players and asked why they liked to play tennis? and they all 3 answered the question with a similar answer, they were saying because they really love playing tennis, and tennis is a game you can play your entire life, and never know everything about the game. They also said just relax and have fun. I was 17 at the time, and I am 51 years old now, and I always remembered just have fun, and smile when you are playing and have fun, trying to hit creative shots. Great video coach. Thank you

Always enjoy your vids Nic 🙏👊🏻🎾

I've watched a lot of John McCenroe matches and grew up a huge fan. I think his style of play looks really cool actually and feel the same way about old school ball players like Pistol Pete and Dr. J that could pass and lay the ball in with so much style and grace. For McCenroe the best tennis doc scene of all time isin 'The Realm of Perfection' when Sonic Youths The Sprawl plays over a reel of him crushing old school serves at Roland Garros. For Connors I always try to bring his level of intensity to my matches. Legends.

A fun video Nick, i like it! Thank you!

That was some very precious advice....THANKS !

It would be fun to see an exhibition tournament where modern top players have to use legacy equipment on fast courts !

I'm 63 yrs old. Remember Mel, going up in the Midwest. Remember "experts" saying McEnroe (when he first emerged in juniors) would not succeed because of his "poor strokes." Love your focus on outcome, while allowing for vast differences in style. 10 yrs ago I went to modern forehand (from continental old style). My forehand was weak so nothing to lose. It was hard, took about 6 months and the purchase of a ball machine, but now have a much better result. Love the Mel story.....he was idolized by us in the Midwest.

I actually went over from a modern forehand to a more traditional forehand. From a semi-western grip with a big loop to an in-between grip between eastern and continental on the forehand, and my game actually improved by leaps and bounds. You have to choose what suits you. If you have some power/energy left over AFTER good footwork, then go to a SW/modern forehand grip. But if you lack the athleticism to hit a SW grip forehand, go back to a traditional FH. You won't regret it. I play NTRP 4.5 consistently, and maybe even a 5.0 on a good day when I am feeling healthy and rested. I am 52 years old, almost self-taught, and started playing tennis seriously at 28 yrs of age...

I started playing in 1959 with a traditional, Connors and McEnroe forehand. 52 years later, In 2011, I decided to learn the modern forehand (loop backswing, Eastern grip, torso rotation). It took me almost three years to get back to the same level as before. During those years I made a lot players on the other side of the net very happy. The grip was particularly hard to change. But I learned a lot about the modern forehand and how to teach it. Good video on an interesting subject. Thanks.

@Better_Call_Raul

7 ай бұрын

" I decided to learn the modern forehand ( *loop backswing* , Eastern grip, torso rotation)." Not clear why the loop backswing is necessary. As long as the racket gets back to around head level, a linear backswing can work just as well.

If Jimmy came along today, with the skills he had, he would give a lot of people trouble with those impossibly flat shots. the big top spinners would have trouble with it, at least at first. This happened in his famous run to the 91 US Open semifinal, to some degree.

@AndrewDCDrummond

2 ай бұрын

Conners wouldn’t have learnt to play those flat shots if he had grown up in a later period, it was only because he was using that abortion of a racket called a WILSON T2000. Even when he was given more modern rackets he was still cursed with the style he learnt with that trampoline of a racket.

@joemarshall4226

2 ай бұрын

@@AndrewDCDrummond they were Typical wood racket shots in terms of flatness. The t2000 was similar to wood but jimmy could lay with the best layers right up until he was 40 using those shots, long after the racer revolution began. And roddicks game took a big leap forward when he was taught to use jimmy’s style of Bh…… just missed winning Wimbledon against roger .

@AndrewDCDrummond

2 ай бұрын

@@joemarshall4226 I take it that you’ve not used a T2000 then - certainly not similar to wood

@joemarshall4226

2 ай бұрын

similar when compared to today s rackets

@joemarshall4226

2 ай бұрын

Jimmy switched from wood to t2000 because it helped his game@@AndrewDCDrummond

I met Mel when I was working with the WKU tennis team years ago. It was very Kool. Equipment has changed and therefore what you can do with that equipment has changed technique. I don't think because you use a technique you learned in the past and perfected it is wrong. Since I'm an old man and I learned playing with wooden rackets I still adhere a lot to what I did back in the day but I have tried to evolve over time in an attempt to keep up. I think as tennis players we are always looking to improve. When I teach I try to show the new techniques with the new equipment however I explain how things have evolved over time as well. ☮️

The technique is only following the technology! Modern forehands couldn't be played with small, flexible, 440g wooden rackets. So ... this cannot be compared. Connors had a very different forehand if he played nowadays. And for sure would be a top world class player too!

@vijaynarsapur147

5 ай бұрын

Connors and Mac would be greats in any era. It's not really that much about technique and power. It's more about, first, having the will to win, and then, about being able to put your unique strokes together in a manner to be able to execute successfully. Connors and Mac are the epitome of these two qualities in one to one competitive sport. They would be more than a handful to any of the top players from any era. Just go watch Connors' matches from the early 90s, or Mac's matches on the senior tour - especially one where he played Courier (and beat him in straight sets) in 2006.

Way back in the 70s with a wooden racquet, I was taught the Jimmy Connors style forehand. That was the standard technique for the equipment at the time. Connors and Mcenroe played the most current game of their time albeit Connor's backhand was unorthodox back then.

I think a very senior player (e.g. over 65) might do better with with the old way. Their legs are slower, their reactions are slower, their eyes are weaker, they can't jump into the air every time the opponent is hitting the ball. In other words, the last thing they need is a technique that requires more time to prepare and set up. With the continental grip, all they have to do is run to the ball and they're in hitting position while they run at top speed. And if the ball is low, they don't have to worry about having the strength to lift up after squatting down low. When hitting on the run they won't need to leap into the air to rotate their body into a position from which they can pull the ball crosscourt. And they have the grip that is ideal for slicing the ball, which forces a young opponent to generate all his own speed, and which can slow down the game. It can also help him drop shot older opponents.

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

Agree, the modern hip rotation is not for us old guys.

Connor's career spanned from 1972 to the mid 1990s. He had the most tournament wins for years. He played constantly. He used to even play exhibitions in the 70s to make more money. Consider where he started to where he left... the pace of the ball in the beginning of his career to when he quit with the pace getting higher. It speaks to his greatness that he could make that trnasition over 20 years..

@robertjacobson941

Жыл бұрын

I was never a fan of JC but I do think he was truely talented to have achieved what he did with that T2000. His flat forehand wasn't his best shot--I remember a lot of them dumped into the net.

@carseye1219

Жыл бұрын

He still has the most wins on tour. Actually, his forehand would have succeeded more with pace. It was practically a half-volley. His forehand broke down when there was no pace, a la Ashe, who just kept dumping the ball short to Jimmy's forehand in the '75 Wimbledon final.

100% agree with Nick. Their forehands worked well with their style and the Era they played in. One thing to note os if you watch Jimmy....and there is a great pic on Sports illustrated...he would drive in to a stroke...particularly backhand and leave the ground , sometime over a foot high-.which used to be heavily discouraged by coaches. So this is seen a lot now.. this is Because the loading and leg drive Nick mentioned. Cool subject Nick and it shows what a student o the game you are.

That's what's so fascinating for me in regards of 80's Tennis. The variety of styles. Back then technique (forehand, backhand, service-motion) was part of an individual and unique playing-CONCEPT. Becker, Mcenroe, Edberg, Wilander etc. They all modelled their ballstriking-technique matching to tactical ideas of playing the best tennis that suited them as individuals.

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

Well said. Tennis was more creative in that sense and each player had a unique style dictated by the way they played tactically. So it was intriguing to watch different styles match up. For instance McEnroe a serve and volley player with great touch go against Conners who was a baseline guy who hit hard and flat and usually attacked short balls and come to net from the baseline. He admitted he didn't have much of a serve and he played a woman's game cause it was taught to him by his Mom. Borg who was one of the original big topspin hitters and clay court guys go onto learn to serve and volley and win 5 Wimbledon in a row. Modern tennis mirrors modern music a lot of repetition and not the level of uniqueness and diversity of back in the day.

@fundhund62

Жыл бұрын

Very well said. To me, the main difference between then and now is that today there is only one truly complete player (Federer), while back in the day many (most?) people were. "Journeyman" players like Jarryd, Smid, Frawley or Jelen hit better volleys than 98% of today's professionals.

Very informative video about why it's so hard for the pros to change anything. For a club player, it's a completely different story. When I couldn't hit a specific groundstroke on a specific day to save my life (meaning every.single.day. Also meaning one, and just one groundstroke among many actually worked that day). How did I handled those numerous problems? I changed my grip! All the time. It often worked.

Thanks for the video Nik. I am 62yo, playing for 4 decades. I started coaching HS girls tennis several years ago. I decided to self teach myself modern forehand and two handed backhand, using following you instruction. Prior to, I had a very good classic forehand and a very mediocre single handed backhand. I have spent the last couple of years watching my forehand decay as I have attempted to learn modern form. My transition to two handed backhand has gone much better, for the reasons you discussed in this particular video, I had serious flaws in my one handed backhand, so it has been easier to improve on that by working towards a two handed modern backhand. Starting next week, I will receive one on one modern stroke instruction from highly talented USTPA teaching pro. I will be interesting how/what she decides is my best path to "salvage" my game.

Great video, Nick. Btw you should check out the podcast by Adam Malik, interviewing your former coach, Mel Purcell. Btw, just to confirm that JMac could do a loop, look back to his 1979 Wimbledon, he was still using the loop on his forehand. He didn't go into a straight forward backswing until his game became more aggressive (confirming what you said too). JMac has admitted that he used to be a baseliner pusher, before he finally realized that he played better at the net.

@IntuitiveTennis

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Champy, can you link the podcast here

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

Mac had the best touch all round than anybody. Federer does with the modern game. Of course Roger has better all round ground game but Mac had the most touch at the net and was a master from the baseline at changing speed kinda like the craft lefty pitcher who doesn't throw excessively hard but always keeps the hitter guessing. His serve was the best disguised in the game and players were befuddled with his back to the net stance compounded by his lefty spins. It was amazing he beat Borg at Wimbledon. The 5 time all in a row champ. It took deception and grit to do that as Borg had such a mental lockdown on the great tournament at the time.

@davidphelan5607

Жыл бұрын

watch on youtube Mac v. Vilas at Pepsi 1980, 1981. Shapovalov like

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

@@davidphelan5607 OK. Mac was playing possum with his game. He'd float one low slice get an badly placed reply then rip the shit outta of it. Lol

I always felt mac had good disguise on his forehand which made it easier for him to volley when he reached the net because his opponent wasnt given much time to anticipate and react.

mcEnroe did hit loopy forehands on clay with a continental grip.He had the reverse forehand and could find crazy angles with the forehand.Connors΄ forehand was more limited.

@bradsquires5971

Жыл бұрын

I agree completely. I don’t recall a single time seeing Connors hit a topspin forehand but McEnroe could and did at times. He even had a great forehand topspin lob.

Great Vid, Nick any chance you could get your old coach Mel on the channel maybe via a zoom interview?

I saw Mel Purcell play in Longwood, Boston and Mt Cranmore, North Conway, New Hampshire in the early 1980's

Connors and McEnroe. Two of the greatest players ever. I learned to play during the tennis boom of the mid '70s. At first, I tried to copy Borg's looping forehand prep and swing. But after getting beat by some good serve and volley players, I switched to serve and volley, and also changed my forehand racket prep to more like McEnroe's and Connors'. Also tried to copy as much of Ken Rosewall's game as I could. In the early '80s I had to stop playing, and didn't play again until 2012. On returning to the game after a 30+ year layoff, I began with trying to copy the stroke prep and technique (both forehand and backhand -- I always had a one-hander) of modern players. Dominic Thiem and Roger Federer are particular favorites of mine. Needless to say, I'm still working on it. hahahahahah Good video as usual. Thanks. Oh, almost forgot, yeah I've of course heard of Mel Purcell, but he wasn't on television enough to be a player who I tried to emulate.

Very interesting review. Still think that Ivan Lendl and Andre Agassi have the modern forehand in most aspects and would have played JohnMcEnroe and Jimmy Connors in their so called old styles. The Del Potro forehand is also considered a bit old school. I think racket and string technologies are the key factors for changing tennis and the technique has evolved around them.

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

@@maxpowers4436 good call. Borg hit with a full Western on FH and with lots of topspin. It's funny seeing him coach the European Laver cup team cause he looks so personable and jovial. When he played he was so austere looking and man of few words. Part of his focus and mental toughness I suppose. The only time he showed emotion is when he'd win Wimbledon on the final point and fall to his knees in thanks to the Viking war gods.

If you give FEDERER, NADAL & DJOKOVIC a wooden racket, they will all surely struggle. Their modern forehands will not work. Connors and McEnroe’s forehands were very much suited to smaller and unforgiving rackets. I think, the technology of the rackets bring forth modern grips and strokes. But classical stroke can still be effective if the courts were faster.

@Dom-yv4nq

Жыл бұрын

I disagree. Federer's grip is closer to eastern and he would adapt easily. Nadal for sure would struggle.

@room1recording

Жыл бұрын

Fed won most of his slams with a 90” relic. He could adjust to a wooden bat like a duck to water

@victorsrpapacoy5602

Жыл бұрын

@@room1recording He dropped the Wilson 85 ‘coz it was “too unforgiving”. Wooden rackets are 77 sq inch.

@victorsrpapacoy5602

Жыл бұрын

@@Dom-yv4nq Federer’s forehand is an eastern forehand. But classical forehand uses continental grip. Fed will struggle for sure. He dropped the Wilson 85 for the same reason.

@room1recording

Жыл бұрын

@@victorsrpapacoy5602 And? He’s not going to play modern tennis with it. Borg, McEnroe wouldn’t be able to do that. He could still use one and comfortably compete with someone of that era who would be using one too.

Mac had along backswing first few years on tour. He was Shapovalov like and has said he reminds him of himself. Mac grew up on clay and was an excellent player on the surface. KZread his matches with Vilas at the Pepsi in 1980 and 1981. Full, topspin ground strokes

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

Exactly, most people don't know.

It was upbringing with Jimmy. He did a lot of his early training playing on a lightning fast wood floor at the St Louis National Guard Armory. You were basically forced into half-volleys for ground strokes. Players should go with what works for them. One of my early coaches was obsessed with Lendl, insisted I lift my elbow, a la Ivan, to begin my loop. It didn't work for me. I was taught keeping my elbow in tight.

Hey Nick, I was wondering about what you think of the relative stress on the body for each type of forehand. Would you recommend teaching the classic forehand to players with limitations or senior players? I know you are working on the del portro type forehand with Robert, but he seems to be unusually flexible and strong compared to other 70 year olds... Cheers! ezra

@cinajawa

Ай бұрын

I would! The modern top spin forehand can cause golf elbow!

Just listened to a couple of first sentences and the question arose: can a modern forehand have a foundation of either of two power sources - velocity from the racket acceleration and body involvement? Or it's always the combination of these two? I mean is it correct to rely on racket velocity more than body for example? I feel that for me it's easier to have a bigger backswing on all types of strokes (FH, BH, slice), than loading the body more. Is it wrong?

Jimmy Connors my all time favorite tennis player

I play with a dude who hits like he is in the 89-90’s. Dude is a BEAST! He is so pinpoint. And has tons of precision and power.

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I think on lower level this classic style can still be successful.

I am "only" 48 years old. When I started, Borg was THE top player and everybody tried to teach me the continental grip. So of course I learned the western grip and a modern forehand, which came to quite a surprise to them. Not for me, because Borg´s topspin and (Germany) clay courts were a thing, and top spin is way easier to get. Whenever I see the old matches, the old fashioned forehands look like late beginners without any help of a proper coach.

I knew Mel and used to see him at the Paducah tennis tournament in Lone Oak. I used to play some of his players and was a booster for his tennis program. Great guy and tennis player. It's too bad that the tennis program was dropped at Murray State. At any rate, I grew up in the 70's and played with a Dunlop Maxply. I idolized Guillermo Vilas so I modeled my forehand off his so I adopted a windmill forehand with a semi western grip which on a hardcourt isn't always a good idea unless you're quick and have good timing. It was always my put away shot and still serves me well at age 62. I was taught by Peter Burwash that it's normal to have a weaker side, which would be your set up or consistent side and one side as your put away side. Most people do. Connors has a killer backhand and Mac has an excellent backhand as well. Actually, you might say that Mac's put away shot are his volleys. Just my 2 cent. Thanks for the video!

I was a division 3 player who was able to make the transition, took a while, lol!

What happens to the forehand if you speed up the court and ball. It’s very hard to hit the modern forehand when the ball doesn’t sit up for you.

Jimmy connors does have a classic straight takeback on the forehand but he dosent use the continental grip. Its more eastern like borgs forehand. Thats why connors hit harder with more control than the other players of his time

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

True that on Jimmy Eastern FH grip but Borg used a full Western FH grip that was well known and looked at as weird at the time. FYI there is even a vid of Borg in his twenties explains his Western FH grip and his more traditional Eastern grip on his BH. Which in reality wasn't a real two handed BH as top hand slid off around contact. That probably gave him stability and torque. Those guys hit millions of balls so they can make little minute adjustments some probably to minute for them to tell objectively but it becomes instinctively ingrained.

Okay Dr Aracic. Started playing in the early seventies. Did all of the above: 'handshake grip, turn sideways, rac straight back, finish in front of your nose'. I changed all of that and I am only a rec player. They could do the same but they don't want to. With these guys it's like: 'if it ain't broke don't fix it, I'm a champion I don't need to, can't teach and old dog new tricks, I'm getting along just fine thank you etc'. I slightly disagree modern players have to stand way back because it takes more time to execute the modern stroke. Tons of modern players stand at the baseline, slightly behind; some step into the court while taking the ball early and in a lot of cases taking the ball at shoulder level. I call you Dr because of your knowledge, training, teaching and playing levels. Compared to you I am in fifth grade science class. A fifth grader however can correctly observe on some issues..🤔

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

Love what you said. Old dog new tricks. And it goes not just to hitting techniques but point construction and tactical pattern repetition they've set up and mastered over the years. Of course these talents can adapt here and there but they're gonna stick to what brought em mostly.

Please dont forget the era that connors macenroe played the rackets were old time small heads Almost impossible to hit a modern forehand with those rackets Different game

Its very good idea for enertainment Johnny Mac and Tylor Fritz for example teching each other their own techniques.Could be fun to watch !

Hi, great video ! I’m 54 and I’ve always played tennis, at the beginning with wood raquets. My favourite player was Jimbo and I did copy him so well my forehand was weaker than my BH (2 hand of course). I played the ball flat, even sliced with the FH like Connors. I decided to have a modern FH (and a 1 h BH) about 10 years ago, and it took me about 2 years to be ok ! I rediscover the tennis game ! Thank you for the video. BTW, if you want to copy Connors, your forehand should me more horizontal. And for JMcE, you should hit the ball more « behind » the body IMO. You are a great teacher ! Hi from France

As always, great video Nik! I completely understand that it is not worth to change the grip that in turn would mean to change your game style (at least for the majority). In my case, I feel I could easily change grip and adapt to a more “modern” tennis. Long story short, I learned tennis at age 13, played somewhat competitively when I was 15 until 18 and then gradually shifted out of tennis. Now at 46, I started playing back and I feel as a fresh teenager; I changed my Eastern grip forehand to a slightly Semi-Western grip and play now with more topspin (as a kid I used to play with less spin and since I was a Sampras fan, I played with the Pro Staff 85). Since then, I have switched now to larger head size racquet (100 sq in.) and I feel that it has definitely helped me with my game. Would you consider that I have not amassed enough muscle memory and thus more likely to learn new techniques? Would be great if you can share your thoughts. Anyway, thanks again for sharing such valuable information! Best, Gonzalo

@IntuitiveTennis

3 ай бұрын

I think you can do it since it looks like u only played for 5 years in juniors

@gibanez78

3 ай бұрын

@@IntuitiveTennis Thanks Coach Nik! Will do my best and see how it goes.

Nick, when you talk about a classic forehand (and backhand), I think you sometimes forget somebody who had a beautiful classic forehand, that beginners could even copy.... Chris Evert. Her forehand, with an eastern grip, was textbook perfect. And she even competed against some powerful players like Steffi Graf and Monica Seles when they were starting out, along with some topspin queens like Gabriela Sabatini. And Chrissie could still hold her own. Also, her two handed backhand, even though it was mainly flat, when she did hit it with topspin, it looked a lot like the modern topspin two hander. Also, McEnroe was king of redirecting pace. He could recieve a powerful Lendl forehand, and redirect it like he was carrying a magic wand. He also used a very loose stringbed to take advantage of that trampoline effect. And Connors competed till the beginning of the 90s, against many more modern strokes, and still held his ground. And one more thing. At a time when Borg, Vilas, Wilander, and the entire Swedish brigade of players (except Edberg), were hitting with loopy topspin (that boring 80s baseline game), Connors referred to his own style, with the straight backswing and flat strokes as "the right way to play". Who am I to argue with Jimbo?

Before watching your video, I'd say that their forehand would definitely be superior if they modified it towards the new technique fundamentals, but theyd probable get worse results, because of millions of strokes in the past that have built muscle memory.

True what you say. But if you taught a 10-year old in 1965, would you teach him a 2020 forehand? Would it even work with the wood rackets?

Mac was also said to play with a very low tension in his racket, so close to the baseline and yousing the racket as a trampolin was his agressiv gamestile. A more modernplayer which playes with nearly is no loop is this frenze small guy and he doing great on the atp tour at the moment (very low string tension aswell) Forgot his name ? Bedst from Denmark

@IntuitiveTennis

Жыл бұрын

Mannarino

Your attempt to mimic their forehand is actually better than any forehands I've seen at recreational level

Wisely said. Just to change that one forehand grip would bust the whole game of a player

I play doubles women. Should I try to change or not. I am pretty good and very good at volleys. Most of players my age play classic . I feel that is not going to be worth it. I feel I can work on how to return a shot that is played with modern forehand. I find when I hit really hard and low, players can't do the modern. So I think I will stay with my way of playing.

It's a shame that everyone plays similar styles now. Looping western forehand, two handed backhand, bashing topspin from the baseline. I liked it much better in the 70s-80s when there was much more variety.

Hello Nick You have one of the best if Not the best tennis teaching site. However in this video please allow me to point out some important historical details in reference to Jimmy Connors and McEnroe's forehands. I saw both players play live especially Connors in his heyday and even met the man on one occasion . Connors grip as described by the late Pancho Segura his once former coach was described as full Eastern verging towards (Semi) western . I have pictures to prove it. Whereas Johnny Mac's grip was a true Continental Aussie style Rod Laver type grip.The contact points are different . I have Connors book where he mentions otherwise but this is a surprising error. Let me send you the pics at an address. Also Connors Did NOT change his grip for his flat two hander he simply added the second hand and hit his backhand with a straight lead arm swing .Connors rarely played serve and serve and volley unlike McEnroe instead he would wait for a short ball or weak return to using his powerful on the rise penetrating flat groundstrokes and at the the time his service return was considered one of the best in the game. In conclusion since Connors forehand grip was closer to Roger Federers full Eastern grip Connors would have an easier time learning the Modern forehand than Johnny Mac. He still holds the most singles title of any player in history at 109 titles. Johnny Mac who nowadays gets alot of press never won the number of Clay court titles or US opens on three different surfaces Grass,Clay ,Hardcourt that Connors did . Connors biggest weakness was lack of a big serve , although lefthanded hit nearly exclusive kick type serve especially early in his career . WHEAREAS Johnny Mac's Lefty Can opener wide in the ad court made his game .Thanks for your time keep up the great work! :)

Edberg's forehand was one I never understood and his serve looked like it could be injury prone (1990 Australian Open Final). The rest of his game was beautiful.

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

@@CJZM7777 His forehand was not that weak. I think he hit more return winners with his forehand rather with his backhand. However, his forehand was wobbly, under stress it was the first shot to fail.

Strange thing about m'y forehand. I play tennis since almost 2 years and from thé beginning i Always hit the ball late and let it drop too much and that lead in m'y mind to add spin in thé wrong way ( using too much forearm pronation during the contact and lake power a lot... Now i have improve and catch thé ball early but still m'y Small muscle memory dont allow me to hit very flat when i want.. the swing path " low to high_ his memorizing that i cant do it.. i can't imagine 30 years of muscle memory...

Mcenroe and connors forehands are fundamentally different. Mcenroe hits his forehand like you with shoulder and hit rotating together. Connors' hips rotate first and uncoils with shoulder hip separation. His technique is most efficient. Changing the grip is not that big of a deal. Its more how you rotate your torso. Efficiently or inefficiently.

Those guys were 2 hot-head champions , they were a lot of fun to watch.

If you were learning the forehand from scratch and all you cared about was which forehand was easier to learn, is it easier to learn the classic forehand or the modern forehand?

Continental forehands are so hard to learn. But man, do you get EASY power. There's a much lower cap on how much topspin you can get with them.

John McEnroe’s game is a game that most people don’t understand even top professionals. This game is very efficient. He does not need to generate the pace. He uses the pace of the other player. There is no need to generate the pace if you truly know how to play the game at any level.

How would J-mac do against Raducanu..? I presume he'd win like 6-2 or similar..?

Jimmy Connors used a semi-western forehand grip - not a Continental grip. Connors hit his forehand (and backhand) from a crouching position. He had problems with short and low shots hit to his forehand. Both McEnroe and Connors hit the ball on the rise. In their era, Borg played far behind the baseline especially on the return of serve.

@IntuitiveTennis

Жыл бұрын

Connors did not use a semi western grip

I also found it hilarious when you said that Federer's serve wasn't the best it could have been...

I have a modern forehand... full western since I was a wee nipper... i have the power... just not the control ;)

I was watching a clip of Stefan Edberg practicing with Roger Federer and it looked like he changed his forehand grip slightly from his professional playing days. If any player would have benefited from switching to a modern forehand it would have been him since it was always mentioned how weak his forehand was.

@smftrsddvjiou6443

9 ай бұрын

I think Edberg did not change his grip, but he shortened his weird loop. Also he changed his serve loop, he now has more of a text book take back, rather his low hanging raquet head.

this is a huge dilemma for recreational players, I have a double handed backhand volley technique and like to take the ball low and place it, and with good reflexes everything was great until a coach recently taught me single handed volley technique of taking a ball higher and approaching it, now my timing is all messed up, now I am not sure whether to go back to my older unorthodox technique or trust the new technique

@spooky1304

Жыл бұрын

If it was working go back to your old one.

@hafadaze9046

Жыл бұрын

If you want to stay and go a higher level by all means stick with what u got. But if you want to progress you’re gonna have to transition to a one hander

Don't you think that the tennis racket at that time, like the Dunlop Max200G, of the 90', was part of the way tennis player hold their racket.

Now, Mcenroe played a contintal grip (half eastern). However, he put a lot more top spin on his forehand, compared to Connors. Connors hit flat shots most of the time. McEnroe had a full take back swing on his forehand as long he played with a wooden raquet, he changed to this short take back with the Max 200 graphite. Just watch old footage.

I suspect Radek Stepanek had similar forehand to those legends. His weakest shot. But on the other he was able to make his favorite dropshots.

@vijaynarsapur147

5 ай бұрын

Stepanek's FH was not weak. It's just that his game was constructed such that he won points in equal measure with all other strokes, rather than with a serve+FH formula. RS had a monster FH, and was more than a handful on that wing for any player of his time.

This is completely mistaken. Connors and Mac had completely different forehands and grips.

del potro had a flat forehand with no loop. Mac's and JC's forehands just needed more muscle. They should have focussed their forehands on huge-pressure or winner right away...

I remember Mel Purcell.

@IntuitiveTennis

Ай бұрын

💯

I´m just curuious on how they play now... I would assume their tecnique have already envolved too, even if they do not play at elite level....

@marcomonti9823

Жыл бұрын

No, they play exactly the same that before, but much, much slower...ah ah ah Maybe Mc serve position must be adjusted to not enjury his back. Edberg made this transition in his serve movement.

@rsmith02

Жыл бұрын

Quite similar. While Connors has suffered from many injuries, McEnroe has played at a high level on the seniors' tour for years, beating players he really shouldn't be able to beat with his game, including '90s ones like Todd Martin. It actually suggests to me that his particular strategy is better adapted for longevity than much more modern players- pulling players off the court with a wide slice serve and finishing the point at net, pulling opponents to net and counterpunching with short angled passing shots, etc. Watch a few of his post-tour matches as that drive to win and the tools he has made him a monster on the senior tour.

@willkittwk

Жыл бұрын

@@rsmith02 seen it too. Couple years back he was taking Roddick fresh off the tour to 7-5 Roddick favor. Mac tennis IQ is at genius level. And yes he plays a much more relax style of tennis than anybody. There's nothing that says you have to engage in tiresome rallies to win just about every point. And yes a diverse game will beat a rally meister still today. It's just not taught because it's unorthodox nowadays. It was that type game that Dustin Brown had Rafa totally befuddled at Wimbledon. What happened?? Rafa said I didn't know what he was going to do next.

It opened up my game a lot, went from an eastern forehand to a federer forehand grip(in between eastern and semiwestern and to open stance. Glad I made the change.

@Joseph-co7uh

Жыл бұрын

I changed my one handed backhand grip from a western backhand grip to a semi western backhand grip a couple of years ago, and this changed really helped me to improve my backhand. I think the thing is that a change can be made if it is subtle, but a bigger change, like changing from a continental grip to a semi western grip, would be much more difficult.

@hafadaze9046

Жыл бұрын

@@Joseph-co7uh a full western one handed backhand? How can that exist? A semi is the most extreme already on a one hander. I never hear any player play with a full western backhand at all lol

@hafadaze9046

Жыл бұрын

@@Joseph-co7uh unless you’re talking about forehand

@Joseph-co7uh

Жыл бұрын

@@hafadaze9046 Maybe we have different ideas of what this grip looks like. But it was pretty uncomfortable.

Imagine like in 10 years from now nobody plays with 1h backhand and someone comes to Roger and says: your 1h backhand is a bullshit, let me teach you how to do it =)

Nick you don’t know if they haven’t tried other grip before and can get used to it they simply refuse to change it as their primary driver that’s all

@hafadaze9046

Жыл бұрын

I don’t think he ever said they haven’t tried changing grip. He’s saying that it would be difficult for them to change grip. They’ve been playing that way since forever their serve and volley technique relies on it well. Look at all the players now in the ATP they don’t do serve and volley as much as back then. Now the game gs evolved from a baseline to baseline rally.

You should play against Johnny Mc!

I guarantee you that both Connors and McEnroe are familiar with various forehand styles. If you hit millions of tennis balls, you will eventually try everything, just out of boredom. Problem is, both men learned to beat everybody else using their own specific styles of hitting. Mac could hit a big topspin forehand, but would it be good enough/consistent enough to win matches? Nope. Same with Connors. BTW, Connors did not use a continental grip. He used a semi-Eastern hammer grip. He could drive the ball flat to either corner, which would be tough for even today's hitters to deal with. Also, if another McEnroe clone showed up today, he might still dominate. Taking time away from your opponent has not gone out of style. It just has very few expert practitioners. One more note: If flat or semi flat forehands are obsolete, what about Juan Del Potro? If not for his frequent physical ailments, he might have won several majors. Delpo's forehand was basically a stand-up version of the Connors stroke.

Their muscle memory has already settled in.

sorry man but the idea that someone try to teach something to Jimbo (who has the record of tournaments ) and Johnny Mac one of the greatest player is simply ridicoulus.The way Mac hit depend from his intention to anticipate and run asap to the net so movement should be short .If not , he would stay behind and hit in another way.

John McEnroe’s forehand is identical to Serena Williams backhand. And it’s the best in the world for the type of game he plays. He has total control in the most crucial points of a match.

Can't argue with the results. So, nothing wrong with either. What about Fabrice Santoro?🤯

the real point would have been to teach both how to avoid the most costly mistakes they made with their forehand styles. Connors made many mistakes on the forehand and even tried a defensive topspin forehand later on.

John McEnroe did not have a inside out forehand. Jimmy Connors hit flat and with slice.

The new players need to fix therefore hands. They are not playing tennis all are doing. Is it in the ball back-and-forth?

Should modern players learn how to volley as well as McEnroe?

Competitive performance vs technical optimum are not the same thing. By your logic, no pro would ever be coached by anyone with lower career attainment than him/her. Perhaps if Mel Purcell had more optimal volley technique, he’d have reached SF of Wimbledon and cracked the top 10. There is a saying in professional golf that top players often get there *in spite* of their technique, not *because* of it. Everyone has technical flaws.

@IntuitiveTennis

2 ай бұрын

The reason why we were laughing is that a random person was giving Mel (who is a great volleyer) unsolicited advice. This video deals with outdated technique and muscle memory and not what u wrote.

@jerome_morrow

2 ай бұрын

2:25

Del Potro is the player that had a modern version of Connors forehand.

I thought Connors had Moore of a hammer grip

The Connors forehand could always keep the ball in play and as his rival Borg said of tennis: It is a war of attrition. I'm sure you know none of this.

i love reading these old men saying how players of the last twenty years could not use wooden racquets! they tend to ignore the completely obvious reality that if you gave these old players - magically transformed to age 20 - all of the ‘modern technology’ that exists in the world, they would be hit off the court by player ranked #200 within sixty seconds. their strokes would be wrecked. when i hit against older players that had a national ranking, their strokes break down in seconds. and we using racquets made of the *same *materials. and yet old men always think that their players were superior and that technology is responsible for everything (that they hate).. it is a joke that never stops in its inanity.

It would be easier to replicate their strokes if you used a wooden racquet.

I believe you could even differentiate within the modern forehand category. Compare the Agassi forehand to Federer. The violent rotation is the same and they both used their wrists. Agassi would manually roll the wrist into the ball (wind shield wiper) while Federer does the exact same but a very relaxed wrist allows much of the handle and the face to keep going back as the hand holding the racquet is rotated forward, and then like a pendulum it rebounds and accelerates the racquet face and the rest of the handle forward and does an automatic windshield wiper at greater speed. Since this does not require strength but timing, I thought the WTA would all be doing it now. Just IGA and a few others. Because the overwhelming number of teachers and coaches do not know how to do it, understand it, teach it, very few students are learning it. There is a huge market for mediocrity. There are many coaches still teaching the forehands from the 70s at least in my area.

@imateapot51

Жыл бұрын

@@maxpowers4436 Their wrist/forearm muscles are so relaxed that much of the racquet keeps go back as the hand is rotated forward, and then it whips back. So passive is correct but it is a high level skill.

The modern forehand is really difficult to learn and execute, with many moving parts across the phases. Those classic forehands look much simpler to learn. Might it not be better for a recreational player to learn to do a classic forehand well than doing a modern forehand badly?

@IntuitiveTennis

Ай бұрын

Modern provides better results right off the bat kzread.info/dash/bejne/iWV5yJqBdr2npbg.htmlsi=yV8-E2Gcj2zcKkyP

@andrewlilico2218

Ай бұрын

@@IntuitiveTennis I see. Well it'd be great to be able to hit a forehand as well as she does, but what seems to me most difficult to learn is the idea of going backwards in order to hit the ball forwards. For a number of people the instinct - which will come out under any sort of pressure, especially if they've played any other racket or bat sports (other than golf) - is to move the racket forwards to hit the ball forwards. Once that hand is high (as vs the lower take-back in the classical forehand), that swing-the-racket-forwards instinct will mean you hit the ball flat or cut. The classical forehand gets around that problem by avoiding any swing-backwards-to-hit-forwards phase. So it's surely much easier for people who have that instinct to do? (And that's before we get into windscreen wipers, lag or any of that further complexity.) The modern forehand is just a really difficult shot to learn, isn't it? If I look around the regular players at my club, virtually no-one even attempts it, even amongst the younger players, other than the elite level players who learned tennis when they were 5. I'd love to be able to do it. It looks very pretty. (And I can't do a classical forehand either - I can't hit a forehand at all.) But it seems really difficult to do and after trying for four years now, playing almost every day but getting absolutely nowhere, I'm inclined to think I'm better to try learning the classical one instead. I can't be the only person in that situation.