Do you think this is a good step? Also get amazing deals with my discount code 'DORON' gvo.deals/Doron

@ccy235

19 күн бұрын

Yes because we literally found out when you die in Azeroth you go to Cybertron lol

I love how nobody comments about the drust storyline going nowhere

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

It was very disappointing with dropping all that interesting aesthetic and angles to just fizzle.

@soapgaming4903

20 күн бұрын

Oh I thought I was missing something lol

@RinaaaYa

20 күн бұрын

Can you elaborate please? :0

@yoremothra9838

20 күн бұрын

@@RinaaaYa The Drust, the Spirit/blight dudes on Kul'Tiras in BoA. Seemed like it was going somewhere, but so far nothing. I remember Pyromancer or someone posting that Shadowlands spoiler back before launch, of a big "Drust-looking" guy, but then we got nothing. It's almost like Blizz dumped the storyline just to spite us.

@mostlyblissful6666

19 күн бұрын

I think that's part of the problem. They were just... there. They didn't really HAVE a story.

Shout out to the Art Team tho because Shadowlands had peak Mogs and Ambiance

@luke4260

19 күн бұрын

Ah yes, the average nowdays WoW players who don't give a shit about lore and only care about cosmetics

@BonusPokus

19 күн бұрын

@@luke4260 You do realize that lore and visuals are two very different things, right? Give credit where credit is due.

@00dragons00

18 күн бұрын

@@luke4260you can like one and dislike the other

@carmenbirb1687

18 күн бұрын

@rengarlothbrok5696 honestly I loved the mythic raids and dungeons Painsmith prenerf was peak boss design

@Valor1610

15 күн бұрын

​@@luke4260Writters are people who do the lore. Various artists and designers are people who take care of zone designs, cosmetics, etc. It's not all made by one "big bad Blizzard hivemind" or whatever. It is perfectly sound to like one and dislike the other.

The biggest problem with SL is that death has little meaning now. Oh, Thrall died? No problem, we can go say hi to him and his mom in Maldraxas any time.

@marcosvmsdm

21 күн бұрын

The real problem is that Blizzard wasn't able to develop new characters in WoW like it did in Warcraft 3. So we're always afraid, "Aren't we going to see Thrall again? Arthas? How come Illidan isn't going to show up anymore?" Famous dreadlords that many fans want to see again? No problem, Demons only die in the Twisting Nether. "The Old Gods don't die, we can still see them in the Void reality"

@thomasdye7503

20 күн бұрын

Well technically with a new Arbiter that's "shouldn't" happen as each person would go to different afterlifes, that's the lore reason we just meet every wow legend. There are more than the 4-5 we see Shadowlands was just bad on reinforcing that. However if Blizzard does pull the trick of "dead but still here" for atleast one character then it's still lazy writing and brings up the nit picks of who we should and shouldn't see.

@Ithiryn

20 күн бұрын

Can we though? Sure, the portal is open in the portal room in game for gameplay reasons but I kind of assumed it was like the portal to draenor where it's ONLY there for gameplay reasons and doesn't canonically exist anymore. Sure a high level mage could probably get in, and death knights and necromancers have always been able to go whenever they wanted, a few npcs in acherus mentioned that they liked to spend their downtime there in legion (Off the top of my head I remember the huntsman guy saying he'd been hanging out there the entire span of time between wotlk and legion, and also vaguely remember mention of the necromancers you recruit using the shadowlands to move around in secret like druids with the dream.) , but everyone else? Even if they could get in I don't see them getting past oribos and I doubt they'd just pull people out of their designated afterlives just so you could have a chat outside of special circumstances. Even then journey to the underworld is a fantasy staple, but just because you can go to where the dead are doesn't make them any less dead so I'd say as long as souls have to stay in the shadowlands outside of some kind of special arrangement being made death still has meaning.

@pirojfmifhghek566

20 күн бұрын

Yeah and despite that they still found a way to perma-death the one dead character we actually WANTED to revisit and learn about (Arthas). There could have been a very interesting story for him that tied things up and gave us a little bit of closure. He didn't need a redemption arc, but we deserved to see more than some ghost fart evaporating into nothing while the most hated character monologued about him. All of the important moments like these were hastily slapped together like they were a mere afterthought.

@jamesspinner7764

19 күн бұрын

did anyone ever say what happened to his dad? Thrall definitely had one at one point ... i just have to assume that the writers thought that there were enough male heros in Shaowlands and didnt need to add another one and that adding in Thralls Dad would detract from the Heroic Warrior Spirit of his Mom ...

The problem with Shadowlands is that we had all this lore yet it never really went anywhere. Stuff just happened without any deep bits in between so we understand. The fact that the book for Sylvanas came out after her redemptions was crazy dumb.

@Altrantis

21 күн бұрын

It should have been in BFA really. Her actions made no sense in BFA, even with Shadowlands in mind. In the end of Shadowlands they patched her story a bit but it's impossible to completelly fix.

@corbin_4738

20 күн бұрын

​@@Altrantis Her actions made no sense? She had been trying to find a continuation for the Forsaken since Cataclysm. It was extremely prevalent in Legion and BfA.

@AssassinGTM

20 күн бұрын

​@corbin_4738 ignoring the part where she actually wasn't doing that? Because her actions in BFA didn't do much to help her people and by the end of it she said fuck em anyways. Then you find out in SL that her entire BFA "story" was a lie.

@pirojfmifhghek566

20 күн бұрын

The fact that we even NEEDED a book to explain her character's arc was a sign that they failed horribly with the storytelling. Steve Denuser was simply a coward of a writer who was too afraid of his audience learning anything that might possibly spoil his big "reveals." And he wanted EVERYTHING to be a big reveal, whether it was worthy of one or not. So whenever he revealed a secret he would make sure to tell us almost nothing. God forbid we know anything about the story we're being told. At this point the core lore of WoW might as well be that Steve Denuser is actually the Zodiac Killer because he's so damn secretive and egotistical at the same time.

@biosyn-ab4261

20 күн бұрын

@@corbin_4738 That was the plan at first but then the writers decided to change it by making her the jailer's little slave. Sucks cause I was a Sylvanas' fanboy lol

3:12 Kael'Thas was ruined back in BC. I mean he literally became the "merely a setback" guy😭

@Altrantis

21 күн бұрын

There was 0 reason to make him a villain, they just needed a loot piñata.

@siddhianishkala4543

20 күн бұрын

Ngl, Kael'Thas is hot. (I'm a woman)

@jcs7206

20 күн бұрын

@@siddhianishkala4543 fake, there are no female wow players.

Kinda hard to retcon shadowlands if the whole anduin storyline is kinda based on it

@Dagoroth55

20 күн бұрын

They never really specified Shadowlands in the trailer why he went missing. They just said he went through a hard time.

@siddhianishkala4543

20 күн бұрын

And Amirdrassil, the new world tree.

@siddhianishkala4543

20 күн бұрын

@@Dagoroth55 They literally showed a flashback of an event from Shadowlands.

Honestly. I didnt think they overcomplicated the Shadowlands.. THey just messed up SERIOUSLY when it comes to the Jailer. How he was free and about in the Maw.. BUt somehow.. He was supposed to be chained and sealed..As we see in the first reveal of Shadowlands.. then he is somehow Free and walking around.... He was showing himself how he is strong.. WAYYY to strong. Even with his weakened form. Before the sigils and Arbiter orb. But the most anoying part was how they retconned the warcraft lore.. to be ALL about HIM.. He is responsible for Arthas creation.. as the Lich King.. The creator of Frostmourn. The Burning Legions Dreadlords worked for him and Denatrius. I mean the Jailer was chained up for so many eons or whatevet long.... But he is bald and clean shaven. That was a thing that anoyed me. He was also in tattered clothing but also metal bits. I like the design he had from the leaked image. Not the way he looked. It almost looked like they panicked over the leak showing what he looks like. And then Switched his model with the Primus. Because honestly the Jailer that we see looks more like a warlord. A General. That goes to the battlefield and fights. Then look at the Primus that we get.. An old wizard looking old man. Someone that looks more like a Disguise of the leak version of the Jailer.. Not the Primus. When i think the primus. I think a General. In Armor. A warrior and master tactician with a Skull mask. Which is what the Jailer had... The Cosmological stuff was interesting.. The Zereth thing was interesting. As it told us of the places where the stuff were created.. The "Gods" of the realms och each group. We see Zereth Mortis.. For the Realm of Death. But we could maybe one day see the Zereth of Order.. Chaos.. Light.. Void and so on. That they are out there.. WHo knows if they still exist or are possibly destroyed by their group.. In anger and rage. Or maybe not. We got the lore of the Dreadlords... Creations of Revendreath. Under the commans of Denatrius.. Very dangerous beings that have infiltrated EVERYTHING.. Maybe even the Arathi. Becuase think about it.. They are light obsessed human-elf hybrids... And we know that Lotraxion is a light infused Dreadlord. And with the lore that we know.. We cant think of him as an ally.. But an enemy. And the Arathi.. They are literally the Scarlet Crusade... The Scarlet Onslaught... On STEROIDS:. So there is potential for something to be going on there. Because remember.. Even the Scarlet Crusade were shown Vissions... and then they traveled to Northrend... And we even see them rather well armed and in large numbers during the Undead Herritage quest... They were opening portals to somewhere.. So their troops could come to the attack place. For all we know.. THey could be in the Arathi place.. Or Avaloren. But we will have to wait and see... Shadowlands... The Jailer just felt like a lackluster villain.. Im the greatest villain.: EVERYTHING ACORDING TO MY PLAN... They could have split stuff into parts.. That would have led everything to him.. Instead.. HE is the one that did everything. Corrupting Arthas. And so on... Just.. Lame.

Poor ursoc, did him dirty too

@northp3214

21 күн бұрын

Ardenweald still doesn't make sense. No other cosmic force sends agents to its opposites. Ardenweald can act like Argus and speed up regeneration, but it shouldn't be a place where wild gods can die.

@northp3214

21 күн бұрын

I hope that when we delve deeper into the true emerald dream we will find all the "fallen" wild gods from the Shadowlands

@rengarlothbrok5696

21 күн бұрын

They trolled when "Nothing escape the Maw"

@patrikzotaj4528

21 күн бұрын

and arthas and garrosh.

@dmargjr

20 күн бұрын

the helm!!!!

Hope they Retcon Arthas Ending in shadowlands

@patrikzotaj4528

21 күн бұрын

yes while he should have been redeemed to aid us against the jailer in revenge for his corruption by frostmourne.

@corbin_4738

20 күн бұрын

Why? To what end? Just to see him again?

@kylonjones5678

20 күн бұрын

@@corbin_4738 don’t even have to see him again just erase the BS turning into a wisp and disappearing.

Arthas deserved better.Sylvanas killed countless people and got a redemption story,at least his spirit apologized to Jaina,Uther and others for his crimes…or helped Anduin coming back to his senses.Instead of the cutscene with Varian and Saurfang,Arthas came to him and saying that he should not become what Arthas was etc. One cutscene had the power to turn the bad story Shadowlands delivered….When I found out that Arthas’s spirit was in Anduin’s sword,i hoped that what said earlier was the final outcome…Total disappointment 😢

@7PlayingWithFire7

17 күн бұрын

I think they handled Arthas' soul pretty okay. What they fucked up was Sylvanas.

I miss the time when Titans were the gods and Sargeras was Satan. While Naaru were also gods fighting their own kind (void lords).

@jacobhindson2275

21 күн бұрын

It was never that to begin with. Sarg is Apollo/ anshe

@wmen48

21 күн бұрын

You didn't play warcraft 2 at the time then. It was titans -good, sarg-bad

@GeekyNerdThao93

21 күн бұрын

Same, as good as Legion was, it missed so badly on Sargeras to me. The story had been building up to fight Sargeras for over 20+ years, dating back to the OG warcraft games. And then when we finally see this dude he was dry humping our planet covered in a cloud. Then we don't even fight em, he just gets sucked away to a titan ship that he previously 1v5 and won.

@corbin_4738

20 күн бұрын

​@@GeekyNerdThao93 I both agree and disagree. The way he was just yoinked away was lame, to say the least. But to have us fight him would have been a tremendous mistake for the same reason we should never have been able to fight the Jailer and possibly even Denathrius. The Jailer in particular. They're literal gods, and if a band of 25 mortals can get together and defeat them, that's kinda pathetic. I think they cheated us the fight because they didn't know how to have us fight Sargeras. If anything, Sargeras should have had to fight the Titans again while we + Illidan aided them. That would have a lot of crazy crap going on though. Just, we should never have met Sargeras in person. Fighting his avatars was good enough - like Darkseid-esque.

@Conorp77

20 күн бұрын

@@MegaPanCakes24-wm9ms Poppycock. Sargeras is hugely influenced/inspired by Morgoth, and Morgoth was hugely influenced by Satan. Tolkien was a Catholic. All three are godlike beings who turn against their own kind and seek to impose their own order on the universe.

All they have to do is make the Titans the first ones and tie it all into the Titans ordering death.

@corbin_4738

20 күн бұрын

That... Actually makes sense

At this point, I think the "It was all a dream" would honestly be better. The lore for World of Warcraft is just too far gone to me. I would be thrilled if they found a way to just wipe the slate clean and start over properly. They just need to find a way to carry over the player's character and sense of personal progression over, everything else can go. Anyone who could figure that one out deserves to get Bobby Kotick's paycheck.

i kinda hated what they did to Arthas. They dropped his soul into hell, ripped to pieces and then try to say "Arthas already got his redemption arc" and all of that happened AFTER showing that none of what he did after grabbing the sword was his fault...

@7PlayingWithFire7

17 күн бұрын

Why does Arthas deserve a redemption arc? Are we gonna make all the villains "just misunderstood"?

@jamesspinner7764

17 күн бұрын

@@7PlayingWithFire7 i guess you just were not paying attention when Blizz decided that The Jailor was responsible for EVERYTHING? Sylvanas? sole stolen .. not responsible .. got a cutcene where the queen of the people she geoncided sends her off for redemption... Arthas? was explained to have had the whole of his soul ripped out of him and in A Cut SCENE in game the responsibility was transferred to The Jailer .. just for the game to send his soul to warcraft hell, get it torn to shreds to corrupt Anduin and essentially be DESTROYED wnen Anduin was freed from The Jailors control... and Sylvanas? she gets a BOOK and scenes where she tries to explain how killing everyone was for their own good ... so .. yea .. they screwed Arthas Dry and Hard.

When Blizzard told us about Arthas in the Shadowlands, I expected echoes of Matthias Lehner in Torghast whispering spooky stuff like "the damned won't get redemption" or "the ones who fell at your side no longer exist" or "even the most ruthless beg for mercy"

Shadowland was just a dream from the echos of N’Zoth.

I feel Shadowlands would have been better accepted if instead of there being these unknown "First Ones" it should have just been the Pantheon and only worlds that they had ordered had there denizens end up there. This would have added to the whole questioning of what the titans are up too, what they want and maybe use them as why the Jailer went insane (I mean the titans arent above nuking life off a planet when they feel it gets too disorderly, jailer just wanted to do this on a cosmic level).

@pirojfmifhghek566

20 күн бұрын

Good point. If the Titans were so closely involved with the ordering of the Shadowlands that might have made the Light invasion storyline much more compelling. It could have opened the door to a clearer path for how the Titan pantheon is going to fit into the upcoming Light vs Void expansions. Could have tied into why Tyr chose to rebel against the pantheon in favor of the Light. Could have paved the way for all kinds of interesting stories. But nah, it just had to be some mysterious nobodies that we won't get to learn about for another five expansions.

I don't think that there being more afterlives is exactly a retcon, we got a hint of this back in the shadowland we saw that others soul was split and light "claimed" part of his soul

If there's one thing Shadowlands did right it was introduce the plot twist that Denathrius was the creator of the Nathrezim. Them being tied to some other cosmological entity or faction was awesome and really pointed their lore in an interesting direction. Being sent as spies to nudge Sargeras in a direction that pleased them was a nice little detail and kind of just added onto their whole shtick. It's a shame that it ended up being some lame robot with nipples though. Other than a few small things the SL writers did, that was really the main "hey this is actually cool" thing that they did right narratively.

I'm probably one of the few who liked the complexity, my brain was happy. I also didn't mind them opening up the lore to all the possibilities because it then gives them the ability to explore so many things instead of shoehorning everything down to only one option.

shadowlands is decent, but ardenweald and revendreth are my favorite zones and storylines.

@afrodan7350

21 күн бұрын

out of all the opinions, you chose to pick the wrong one

we miss arthas.

Creating an afterlife in the Shadowlands would be a good move, as it would mean there is no 'gone forever' and our dear and beloved Arthas could rest in peace.

I honestly really liked the Primus = real mastermind theory, I feel like if it became cannon it would at least make the plot line feel more interesting then it was, and set up an actual cunning mastermind. Now the true villain has 'saved' the Shadowlands and has set up a new Arbiter empowered by a the Crown of Wills that he directly created. The Primus could be directly tied to the Titan Pantheon receiving his gift of power of time and its endless possibilities through a bargain with Amun'thul, in exchange for his domination magic, the perfect tool to ensure complete order.

People confusing LORE for NARRATIVE is so dumb. Shadowlands lore was never bad, literally explained what eternals are, first ones and pretty much everything else. Narrative on other point during that expansion was terrible, story wasnt told properly literally hinting us whole expansions some things but never confirming anything. Literally after everything we know about Primus up to date, we know they meant him to be an actual puppet master, so sad story was told in the way of players figuring out and decrypting whispers from years ago, korthia books and brokers tellings to realize Primus was one behind everything. Literally guy carved runes on Zovaal just like "Zovaal" did to Anduins armor. Dominated him through whole expansion and pretended he was one imprisoned half of expac (Runecarver) ORIGINAL CREATOR AND MASTER OF DOMINATION MAGIC, ONLY ONE TO WIELD IT EVER. BEST MASTER TACTICIAN AND STRATEGIST SHADOWLANDS EVER SAW and he god "dominated" by Zovaal😂?? Who literally had no powers whatsoever, and already had for long time Domination runes on his body carved by Primus. Zovaal was first Arbiter shadowlands ever had. And Primus here with connections with Aman'tul through timeways harnessing powers of Azeroth through sepulchure of the first ones? gtfo😂😂

@Integroabysal

16 күн бұрын

Bruh , the story is bad if you have to read 10 books and visual novels just to make it make sense , the narrative design in wow was never good , but the stories actually made sense , and the books just added the juice , but shadowlands was a total dumphole of a shit story and i mean it , remember how BFA ended with so much cliffhangers ? yea shadowlands ended with same cliffhangers but added even more , this is why shadowlands story was bad , it never explained anything it just added on top or totally butchered what was already good.

"or a truly terrible dad pun" i lol'd so hard

Hard to retcon lore when the Lich King and sylvanas are missing

@corbin_4738

20 күн бұрын

They can't retcon it entirely. Amidrassil is directly tied to the Shadowlands. Elune and the Winter Queen have obvious connections. They can retcon some of it, or ignore parts of it, but they can never get rid of it in its entirety

@nathanwinters2400

18 күн бұрын

@@corbin_4738 Well not without hitting the "restart" button xD

Never noticed that Prime Naru Xera had the similar symbols like in Shadowlands Zerith Morits symbols.

"Vassal of life disguises treachery, beware eyes of green". Like we know for a while now Zovaal was never meant to be "Jailer", he was getting jailed through whole expansion. Sad how Blizzard instead telling us story fully want us to decrypt their expansion of figuring who the bad guy was, alot of people will just say thats crap but those people are delusional. Literally 23245 hints and confirmations that Primus was the real big bad. People still riding Zovaal was the main villain.

Best they can do without a straight up retcon pretending it didn't happen/N'zoth illusion/etc. is recontextualize it as a sort of purgatory I think. Even doing that though, the damage done is immense.

It wasnt complicated. It was just stupid Lore. Without any sens.

Yes, you said it best. We have some foreshadowing of shadowlands in the next expansion.

If you didn’t realize that the top of the realm (I.e. Titans) are dual powered than you were never paying attention from the outset or something. Damn I think nearly everyone had to know that. I mean look at each titan and you can what other part of the chart they represented. I can’t believe to admitted to that.

A thing they could do/could have done, is make Shadowlands an integrated part of the cosmology. I know WoW expansions run on "a crisis happened" but death would be more meaningful if it were slightly more permanent than the time it takes to run to the nearest spirit healer. They could a) make death a little harder to happen somehow, maybe have an intermediate "knocked out" phase, but then b) when the character dies, you can run around in the shadowlands (the normal death state) and possibly interact with other ghosts and under certain circumstances the land of the living, possibly getting resurrected or raised as undead, or c) then migrate to the Shadowlands (expansion) and do stuff there for a while, before eventually being reincarnated, allowing you to retain some aspects of the previous character, but otherwise refashion it. This of course would require WoW to be a lot more complex and nuanced than it is, so naturally they wouldn't do anything like that.

tbh i liked shadowlands… it was fun, immersive and for someone who doesnt dive down the lore, it was somewhat solid

Aw, now we’ll never know the Jailor’s grand plans that were written since Warcraft III

Their saying the Cosmos is a D20 and not a D6. They shouldnt retcon Shadowlands because it makes sense if you assume the First Ones were actual agents of Order and the force of Order has already won the war and ordered the cosmos. Why am I the only one who sees this? So Shadowlands wasn't really the actual Shadowlands. It was the realm of Death as ordered by the First Ones, who are the creators of the Titans and true Gods of Order. Why else is it full of machines and theres a Zerith for each branch of the Cosmos. Its the same crap Titans were doing to Azeroth this whole time with their machines, only on a Cosmic scale. They ordered death, life, everything into a neat little Cosmos and we live in the aftermath. Elune, Zoval, Winter Queen, Titans are all constructs of Order. Some are Orders representation of Death or Life. Point is, its already happened. What is happening now is Azaroth may be the one true god trapped and trying to be converted to Order with all the Titan machines. Which is why no alternate Azeroth was created when Hellscream created alternate Draenor. Because there is only one Dark Tower. Sorry. Gunslinger reference.

I said fuck blizzard when they literally destroyed arthas soul and the angles did nothing or even knew about it that's why I didn't like shadowlands.

Press S to spit on grave

@Alarak87

20 күн бұрын

S

with danuser gone.

tyron was imfused with Fel as he Died unlikly in the light after life...

@xsvrrx

15 күн бұрын

same with The king Varrian During Legion.

I seriously hope nobody in charge of lore during Shadowlands is still employed at Blizzard

Unless they fix Arthas and Lich King, it's all for naught.

Blizzard few expansions later: Yeah, all the cosmology is the dream of a sleeping god, so it changes, the new big bad guy is an old Night elf / Highborne achieved the status of an individual by realizing he's a dream and becoming god like himself. the big half naked bad guy: -Come champion, friend or traitor, come. Come and look upon the Heart and World-soul, and bring The Scythe of Elune, I have need of it. Come to the Heart chamber, I wait for you there, where we last met, countless ages ago. Come to me through fire and war, I welcome you! Welcome Moon-and-Star, I have prepared a place for you! Come, bring The Scythe of Elune, to the Heart chamber, together, let us free the cursed false gods! -Is this how you honor the the Quel'Dorei House, and the Dark troll tribe? CONBAT STARTS -What a fool you are. I'm a god. How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape.

Yeah I don't think it was the chart that made most of us in Lore side of gaming say "screw this" it was more the multi-expansion long gutting of established characters and very clear lack of actual direction. Legion, while not a bad expansion; is also with the "issue" expansions due to it effectively ending the Burning Legion as a threat. WoD was overly ambitious and Blizz pulled the plug and went back to Old Hat direction rather than sticking to the original idea. BFA was all over the shop and couldn't decide on what it wanted to be: Alliance vs Horde, World vs Old God, Warcrimes Inc.? SL as a theme really shouldn't have been an actual played in zone where it was the base line, the Arbiter was a terrible idea and the constant chiming about "the Plan" or the Bears of Bastion being so stupid that they ignored the problem bc THE PLAN (if they were robots it would have made some sense but they clearly aren't) was terrible writing all around. Honestly expansion wise Legion should have been the final thing for WoW, and I mean in where it lead to when it was released. Base Game Well... up until Vyranoth going from "All there is, is Vengeance" to "Hey besties, my brother is insane. Let's hold hands and become the hands of the World Soul, not that we know what that is since the Heart where MULTIPLE dragons stood clearly did chime in to be familiar enough. Friendship power!" in literally three quests. Character writing being so fickle that they drop the ball on a redemption arc and holding OG Aspects like Alexstrasza and Nozdormu accountable should be a clear sign in direction. Story degradation has been going strong long before SL.

I think that it is barely half of a solution. Firstly- they basically said "don't think too hard about the lore. Just follow what we say.". Which isn't a good idea if you want to make people stay invested. Secondly, greater controversy was treatment of old beloved character- Uther, Sylvanes, Tyrand, Jaina, Kel'Thuzad and of course- Arthas. Nothing on it was done.

I always say, when it comes to story telling you can always retcon. Like maybe say that the jailer himself was a pawn who was made to think and say he was in control of everything to throw us off. Is it perfect? No! But it allows them to say that he didnt actually know what was going on. Sure maybe there was sprinkles of truth in SOME of what he said, but even then it would leave us questioning, what of what he said was true and how much wasnt real? They can then cherry pick what they like and what fits.

Shadow, what? I dont know this exp....

@serza7254

21 күн бұрын

Shadowlands, something we never heard of.🤔

So in other words just imagine the universe as a random d20 the blizzard team just rolling with the result. Way to go full circle with this going back to our it's d&d roots. Truly explains with what we've been trying to analyze this whole time. As well as the oversll consistent inconsistencys.😂

Retcon all the lore and bring it back to Warcraft 3 or Wrath of the Lich King Blizzard has become stupid

This is coming from someone who mains a Casual Vampire Warrior with a love for style in almost every MMO, They could retcon Shadowlands and all the worst expansions all they want. It's not going to me make someone like myself as well as other casual players who play the game merely for the fun of it return. Especially in a game that holds a deep prejudice and bias against Vampires. Sure, you have the chance to express yourself as a bearded lady. However, when it comes to expressing yourself as sophisticated Stylish Vampire Warriors inspired by the two Legendary supernatural Swordsmen Kain of Nosgoth and Dracula of Wallachia, that's crossing the line with both the Devs and Player base in WoW. I am sure the people who quit because they could not express themselves are likely playing games where they are comfortable being themselves in different games. Some people could be lucky akin to myself and found a game which endorses them to express themselves in very creative ways. In addition to freedom of expression and creativity, due to the community likely being so small, their characters are also likely living a life of Nobility instead of an impoverished Murder Hobo. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Muder Hobo, I personally find it satisfying seeing my character going from sucking the life out of random rats in the Undercity to acquiring sustenance bought from one of Central City's or the Oracle Fleet's medical centre's Blood banks. When it comes to characters expressing themselves, WoW has a long way to go, for now, they may be undisputed when it comes to content made perfectly for sweats, when it comes to RPG Qualities, they cannot hold a candle to games such as Baldur's Gate 3, Phantasy Star Online 2, or Final Fantasy XIV. On the Brightside, despite how silly it seems, I think the bearded lady may be a tiny step in the right direction for character self-expression. 💪🧛‍♂🛡

I actually like what they did with Kael'thas. The others not so much...

And it's all Denuser's fault. It would be best if they just erased everything that happened in Shadowlands

I liked some aspect of Shadowlands lore and the zones was pretty fun to play in, it was the later stages of grinding that did me in. But absolutely hated shadowlands concept of afterlife. Ursoc mentioned already and agree they did him dirty. However for one who imagined as past lore hinted. Orc Ancestral Grounds. Taurens green roaming spirit plains. And all what other races has as belif in afterlife. Hated that Orcs,Taurens and others was forced to be a blue Kyrian(I thought more about our beloved spirit healers lore than this) and or tortured by some vampire like creatures,Serving a Ice Queen that see our life force as fuel for her kingdom. Undead creatures and than some. I would have hated for heroes like Saurfang,Garrosh,Tirion etc end up in places like that. So like the concept of a more "true" afterlife.

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

I'm the same in I liked some aspects of the lore, but so much didn't sit well with me. The quest where you're dismissing the good memories from the one Kyrian and find out he'd been a Tauren and you're erasing his memories of being with his family and all had me genuinely ticked off like I haven't been since playing Breath of Fire and finding out the one ultimate spell that was built up to be some big badass spell ended up being the spell of the friendship you built along the way. It felt like with Shadowlands it was crapping all over everyone else's belief in a particular afterlife in a 'you think the afterlife is this thing, but LOL no' kinda way. I try to make it work in my head with since it wasn't a natural/normal breach attempt into the afterlife, we all ended up in what was a protective quarantine presenting itself as the afterlife keeping us occupied to protect the actual afterlife.

I feel like the best way to fix the damage caused by Shadowlands is to go back and redo it. Remake Shadowlands to fix the huge issues and maintain only the essentials. Theyre never going to do it, but thats the only way to truly heal the damage.

@doronamovies Can you do a walkthrough of the new Thrall short sorry?

I don't like retconning. That's as if you'd force J.K. Rowling to retcon Sirius Black's death. I didn't like it that he died, but hey... that's the power of the storyteller. It broke my heart that they had Tel'drassil torched by Sylvanas, but you won't hear me whine about that. Let's just see what happens next. :)

I know Shadowlands wasn't great, but am I seriously the only one who actually still liked it?

Been what 2 years? What you mean by finally?

When did they say they were retconning shadowlands

The Codex does not change absolutely any of the Shadowlands Lore. He doesn't even say anything, it's the same padding out as always. This new content is that famous content that says a lot and at the same time says nothing. In other words, it doesn't add anything new to the Lore.

Shadowlands wasn't overcomplicated, it was just poorly written, and poorly executed on top of that.

I feel like that Blizz pulled a Drangonball Gt. The Shadowlands is just filler content and non-canon now 😂

Please tell me it was just a bad dream

Shadowlands was copying Thanos in Marvel trying to collect all the power stones. The Jailer was trying to get all the power stones of the covenants.

Damn Danuser really tried his best to "Ken Penders" World of WarCraft. Sadly he succeeded..and ruined it for everyone.

i play dorons videos at 2x

unless their retconning arthas, kael & garrosh to give them redemptions like miss banshee, not really interested

The concept of the shadowlands isn't bad, the storytelling just wasn't good. Exploring the afterlife without hurting already established lore.

@Doronsmovies

21 күн бұрын

Yeah I agree. The entire concept could have been good but it was a really tricky thing to write that required quite a bit more skill to make it right.

Overcomplicated? I can buy that, but the real issue wasn't it's complexity, it was how it explained those complexities (as well as the often mentioned issues of contradiction and character writing assassinations). For example, during and since Shadowlands I still see members of the community complaining about Arthas' role, but the community itself contradicts each other's complaints. That doesn't happen because of complexity, that happens because of the ambiguity of the story and story telling. Using the Arthas example, prior to his disappointing final scene, the *community* was upset by the idea that everything Arthas did was a intended by Zovaal and all agency of Arthas during WotLK and even WC3 was stripped away. The *community* was also very upset that Arthas *wasn't* mind controlled and all the evils he committed were his own actions, basically a group of people who desperately wanted a redemption arc for Arthas and/or him returning to the lore as a saviour/hero of the Shadowlands story. How can this be? The community claiming two very disparate takes on what Shadowlands told us about Arthas prior to his final appearance? First of all, yes, swaths of the community missed a very important piece of dialogue in 9.0 that very clearly explained Arthas' on-Azeroth actions and how they related to Zovaal's "grandiose plans", but let's be blunt here, yes, both sides of that argument made a huge mistake, but that mistake happened _because_ of the way that information was presented and how that information was never referenced or expounded upon afterwards. So, enough beating around the bush, what was this "key" moment in the story regarding Arthas that so many people missed in 9.0? It was a piece of dialogue from Zovaal to Bolvar during one of the attempts to use the fragments of the Helm of Domination. Zovaal calls Bolvar a failure, *just* *like* *his* *predecessors.* Now, I get that people may have missed this because Arthas' name wasn't explicitly stated, but come on, who do you think he meant? Bolvar, Arthas _and_ Ner'zhul all failed the Jailer, but not because they "lost", but clearly because they did their own thing, they all resisted the Helm of Domination in their own way, with Bolvar being the most clearly explained at the end of WotLK. The point of that scene was to explain that they all failed to carry out Zovaal's wants. The reason this didn't click with large swaths of the playerbase is because it was very ambiguous (writing issue) _and_ because it never got addressed again (attention span issue). We did get "show don't tell" story telling after this point with both Arthas and Ner'zhul to back up that Zovaal was unhappy with both form Lich Kings, with Ner'zhul's soul tortured and blinded in the Sanctum of Domination and Arthas' soulkeeper-bound spirit being used to fuel a mourneblade (which was obvious from the second they showed the weapon being made in 9.0, but again, members of the community was blind to this moment), but again, it was obscured by vague writing directed towards a disgruntled playerbase that needs hand-holding from time to time.

#MakeZovaalgreatagain!

After the last titan, think it's time for WoW2?

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

The issue they have to deal with for WoW2 is how long we've had WoW and all we've built up with our characters. We have people getting mad salty over just the mention of the possibility of allowing a similar version of a utility mount in a more accessible/cheaper way. Now tell those same people that all the time/effort they put in to get particular mounts/transmogs/titles..etc is going to end up being for nothing in a fresh WoW2 and there'll be rioting in the streets. Doing it as an accountwide transfer thing then what's the point of a WoW2 other than taking advantage of tech advances that've happened since WoW.

@Stefo717

21 күн бұрын

@@MSinistrari that's a very good point

@bobhammer8993

21 күн бұрын

No way. Not if they want to keep the fans. There are too many incomplete stories that need finishing and mistakes which need clarification. If they don't fix things and go to WoW2 with the writing that has been done to this point, people will think a WoW2 will be just as full of retcon errors. That being said, in a way maybe yes a WoW2 only if it offers a clean lore slate that they intend to not fk up. Just my thoughts. ❤

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

@@bobhammer8993 When I've talked with others about what they'd want in a WoW2, most of it are things like streamlining (able to fly in Quel'thalas/Azuremyst) or updated graphics/UI, or refining quest storylines. It's never things like what's Azeroth going to be like in 500-1000 years. Going from what people have told me they want in a WoW2, they can do that all currently in WoW if they dedicate the resources for it.

You have got to be kidding me., with all due respect. Shadowlands was necessary for Sylvanas to see that all's been fightinting for was ultimately going to lead to betrayal. But, she regained that missing part of her as a result. Something hasn't been seeing since Arthas killed her.

Can we get Garrosh rezzed. Rather have him around them most of the meh chars we have now. We could have seen so many chars and old bosses in shadowlands but nope almost nothing cool was shown

They feed us a bunch of new perspectives and in the end we got none... Just like the multiverse shit, everything is possible. (lazy writing);

Shadowlands needs to be banished to an alternate universe >.

I don't think shadowlands was that bad

Bring back shadow lands. Except. For every plane of existence Just all out. Quality and quantity. Feeding A.I data and writing prompts. Just. All the zones

IMHO, Shadowlands wasn't overly complex it all - it was just really bad. And in its defense, it felt like it had to tidy up a *ton* of crap that came before it. Problem was, it didn't succeed - it just made it all worse. Example: "Why didn't Elune help the Night Elves escape genocide? Well because Elune wanted them all to die so that they would become emissions free fuel for her sister in Ardenweild only WHOOPSIES... Elune wasn't CCed on the E-Mail chain and didn't know about how things are being done now SO THEY ALL GO TO WARCRAFT HELL INSTEAD." - perhaps the stupidest plot development I have ever seen in any form of narrative. Including Horror B movies.

Can't agree with this one with you Dorons, I played through most of SL and yes it was bad back then. Sylvanas arc was shit, whole thing was very encrypting and weird and end was confusing and underwhelming. BUT LOOKING IT WAY BACK FROM NOW, THINGS WE KNOW NOW. Like i want them to fix it in future so people when they look it way back, even casual story lovers, everyone would go like "ok that makes sense" Like we got new info that Primus was contacting someone through the Timeways during the event after shadowlands we assume to be AMAN'THUL. "Vassal of life disguises treachery, beware the eyes of green." Literally ll'gynoth is saying in 8.3 that Zovaal is vassal of life and we should be aware of other threat "Golden one claims the vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkkness". OBVIOUSLY REFERRING END OF SHADOWLANDS AND PELAGOS COMING IN AS NEW ARBITER CLAIMING "CROWN OF WILLS" BY PRIMUS. AND THESE ARE QUOTES LITERALLY BY MOST INVISIONED BEING IN THE WOW UNIVERSE. SAME GUY THAT PROPHECIZED THAT KIND OF DIAMONDS WAS MADE A PAWN. Like do this only few people and lore content creators see? Literally people would rather believe that Zovaal was just trash rather then 5'3468436 hints, literally pages i can link you and write you right now up to date with everything reffering we were all deceived. Even though story was told very very badly in shadowlands, their intentions never changed for expac. Also there was covid lockdown, blizzard lawsuits , overall big problems back then when most of companies didnt even work.

Shadowlands was just fine you all are just mad

Shadowlands lore was a big dump of shit , like for real , we never got any answers just cliffhangers over cliffhangers , even the final boss was a freaking cliffhanger.

I really dont get the hate for SL lore. Denathrius and the dreadlords, WQ being Elunes sister, and just Maldraxxus in general was great. Turning Sylvanas into an idiot and Zovaal being this 5d chess master with everything connecting to him were the only real issues if you ask me. Hell I didnt even get the hate for how they treated Arthas, like what were yall expecting him to be some unsung hero who had a change of heart?

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

I was kinda hoping for something redemptive in Revandreth for him. Arthas didn't start out evil. A bit sheltered in his worldview with a dash of naivity, yes. Cracked when facing a situation out of his league, yes. Worthy of a go through Purgatory for the evil he did, yes.

@justinb7494

21 күн бұрын

@@MSinistrari Eh. Idk, he was willing to dominate the lives of everyone on Azeroth by raising them as an undead army to fight the Legion, thereby depriving them of an afterlife... And this was all Arthas's doing, not Ner'zhul who was long gone from the helm and not the Jailer who himself said Arthas gave him the finger. Becoming a tool just like how you saw other people seemed like a fitting end if you ask me.

@MSinistrari

21 күн бұрын

@@justinb7494 I take Zovaal's words with a grain of salt since it's more of a 'he said' thing. As far as the rest, Arthas had already been corrupted and believed he was stuck on the path he was already on. Just like Kael'thas was going through redemption through Revandreth purgatory, Arthas should have too.

If they come out and say that SL was just a bad dream, i will gladly take that

Get this info to Pyromancer asap😂

@mung01re

21 күн бұрын

Why, so he can spin it into "fractals"?

@aladnyulok32

21 күн бұрын

I think he already talked about this in a live. This is old news.

@justinb7494

21 күн бұрын

Nah, he already acted like a child over Bellulars video.

@aladnyulok32

20 күн бұрын

@@justinb7494 really? can you point me to that?

@justinb7494

20 күн бұрын

@@aladnyulok32 it's the newest reaction to the "Azeroth is not a Titan" video by Bellular he put out on his channel. He gets worked up over the smallest wordings and of course goes on about his theories as though they're facts as usual.

the whole universe and alter-dimentions is such a bad road for wow..WOD killed wow lore way before shadowlands imho..

Im the only one who enjoyed shadowlands?

@johernandez266

21 күн бұрын

Yes 🤣

People still crying over Arthas in the comments is laughable. The guy was a power lusting mf after Northrend back on W3, how do people even suggest a redemption or anything close to it for him is beyond my comprehension The Arthas book? Bs to justify a duality to his character that wasn't there originally Jaina's locket? More of the same, he allowed Archimonde to destroy Dalaran without knowing if Jaina was in there lol so much for the love of his life Arthas was a bad person, let go of the mf, he is at last what he should be: nothing, not even a speck of dust I'm glad he got the treatment he received

I swear to god that its a Filler expansion

what does retconned mean? is it like "restarting" the stories?

@BastaXL

21 күн бұрын

It means the shadowlands story that happened in game wont be canon and it will be changed pretty much

@TheWhiteCrest

21 күн бұрын

@@BastaXL thats great news, thanks

I think this is just making it worse...

So who were the first ones, and why did their artifacts respond to us? Why did the jailer do anything? Who cares? We’ll never know!

My biggest issue with some of the lore nerds is that they'll whine that Shadowlands defined things too much, but then whine about "the bible not being accurate anymore", when all these literal bible metaphor and ideas are the entire problem with the lore. When we get literal definitions and overly explained, tight, and straight forward ideas, we end up with a boring and sterile universe, where the gods are all 3D printed robots, made in factories, that created all the universes, made by "the first ones". It's garbage, and trash. You just whine about everything new or complex for the sake of it. Not that there isn't A LOT of things wrong, ESPECIALLY in Shadowlands (basically ruined the entire warcraft universe), but saying "BOHOO THEY RETCONNED MY BIBLE" is the worst and dumbest take ever. Having it be that sterile, straight forward, and mechanical, is WHY it became shit. "Oh you go to the kyrians if you were like this or that" ugh ew. Terrible. Never explain the afterlife like its game mechanics. Garbage idea. It is GOOD that they retcon the bible nonsense. The fact that everyone took it as literal and the truth, and "how it all works", is what made it bad. I don't want a neatly defined, and perfectly explained universe. Elder Scrolls at least does this right with the whole "these are gods, and these are daedric princes, and the daedric princes do all this shit, but we don't really know what's going on", while Warcraft is "The Light is good, and life is good, but fel is this, but void is that, and all dead people go the shadowlands, except demons, they go to the twisting nether, and this goes there, and this there" like it's all a weak ripoff of demons dying and going back to hell etc. Which is a good idea, but its taken too far.

Best thing for Blizzard to do is make Shadowlands an Alternate Universe, not an Afterlife. Think about everything that happend, it could all kinda still make sense if it all Happend in an Alternate (Dark/Death) Azeroth in Another Universe, or as I like to call it; Reverse Universe. A Reverse Universe could Explain why; - We see familiar faces. - We don’t see familiar faces -It Explains why Arthas is a whisp, because he could’ve gone another path in that universe, and Zovaal is the “lich king” in that universe that killed him. - It explains why The Eternal ones are mechanical, because they are Keepers in “Their Universe” and Zereth Mortis is like Ulduar in Ours. It could make sense if all of Shadowlands Happend in an Alternate Universe, and we have mistaken it for all this time as an afterlife. It could explain why the cosmological chart in SL is the way it is, because it’s a chart of “Their Cosmo Universe” , Not ours.

SL was so weird they literally retconned the story itself in the same expansion lmao

Please... do it, just do it.

The story wasn't too complicated. It was just stupid. It was nonsensical and unpredictable crap. Like episode 8 from Starwars. Just subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. They have clearly learned nothing and now they will make even more crappy stuff.

Well, u pocetku mi je prica bila jako cudna, sve u vezi Shadowlands-a. Prvo, stvar sa Utherom. Mi smo u Vanilli imali '' Uther's Tomb '' gde se Uther pojavljivao, pricao, posle je i u Legionu bio Questline, takodje, opet Uther prica, divani sa ljudima, imali smo i Terenasa u WOTLK-u, imali smo dosta duhova, okej? E sad, fora je sa tim sto se to ne kosi sa onim lorom iz Shadowlands-a, tamo je Uther posle svoje smrti odmah dospeo kod Kyrianaca, tamo je blejao i slicno, nije znao sta se desava na Azeroth-u vise, a ovamo u Vanilli, pricao je opustenjaka sa playerima, govorio o nekim drugim stvarima, i slicno, onda Terenas koji se kao duh pojavljivao na Azeroth-u, takodje, pa Medivh i slicno, a kako kada iz Shadowlands-a nisu to mogli da rade, nisu mogli da izadju iz tog sveta i dodju na Azeroth, tada jos nije iko razbio Helm Of Domination koji je bio jedini kanal izmedju ovog sveta i Shadowlands-a. Znaci, tu mi je vec zasmrdeo lore. A drugo, nije bilo ni Durothana, Garrosh je skoncao na najgluplji moguci nacin, pa nismo pola likova videli u Shadowlands-u. Trece, to sto po defaultu Shadowlands NIJE fizicki svet, dakle, sve je providno, prozirno, duhovno, bukvalno nema materijala tamo, znaci, neko je bas uzeo i izuserivao lore zesce. A ove zone iz Shadowlands-a, mogli su da stave u nesto drugo, i naprave neki drugi lore, nevezano za to. Mnogo propusta ima.

Shadowlands wasn't complicated. The vast majority of the playerbase just isn't fucking paying attention to the quests. Seriously, nobody is reading it. Me? Shadowlands was peak Fantasy storytelling. You start off by going to hell...and it sucks. bad. no mounts, no flying, just good ol' fashioned perambulation, aka walking. The ambience there was a drag and made it insuffferable. The whole zone was a mood killer and it sucked. That was on purpose. ITS HELL. ITS NOT FUN.... Then you go to Oribos and see some of the problems and how things work. The stream of souls is out of whack. You can do basic math visually, right? Then you find out that you are the first and only mortal to ever make it to oribos with a body and alive. You find the different kinds of afterlives, each with their own purpose for different stages of recycling of your soul or strengthening it as appropriate. Eventually you find yourself at the cornerstone of creation and find out that the main bad guy is actually, technically, the good guy. He wanted to beat the void by keeping it in stasis. What is dead may never die. Kill the Void Gods, while nobody can die, and they just get stuck with no power. Always inbetween, never in the universe, unable to interact with it. You begin to learn the language of The First Ones, the language of creation. You find that the gods and titans are all just creations of an even higher power. That beings like Elune are beyond one form, and in fact are Cosmic level entities spanning multiple dimensions and realities. And again, you realise that WE are actually the bad guy in the end. Zoval was literally trying to just flat out end the war against the void, and because we don't speak the language yet, we go into the Sepulcher without understanding what the guardians are trying to tell us. They were trying to tell us we were making a mistake. But nobody got that. They were too worried about rare farming to get their sloshy-sword of water or being forced to do more torghast runs lol.