*Still wondering why that ENY3603 deviated to the north if they had been assigned a 100º heading...*

@AxelWolfeCT

5 жыл бұрын

VASAviation - I agree.. That ENY3603 did the complete opposite of what he was told to do.. And he continued to do the opposite DESPITE acknowledging the correct instructions given to him.

@thomas.leitner

5 жыл бұрын

so let the professional well informed guessing and blaming battle begin. makes people more intelligent than before.

@JP-pf5pz

5 жыл бұрын

Maybe they fly out of KORD so much they thought they were 9R and went north out of habit.

@AxelWolfeCT

5 жыл бұрын

J P That’s a good possibility. We don’t know what the pilots were thinking when they did this. We weren’t there and until we get some more information on the incident, we can only speculate.

@MrCrystalcranium

5 жыл бұрын

Wow...if this pilot did deviate because he was used to another runway that's really bad. Every takeoff and landing should have the pilot's full attention

Kudos to the TWR controller who suddenly noticed the deviation and warned ENY3603 to stop climbing, that's one of the best things of this job !

The scariest word ever uttered by a controller is 'immediate' or 'immediately'.

@roffel6876

2 жыл бұрын

Also "expedite" as in the video below... :) kzread.info/dash/bejne/in-q1M-IesW_cqg.html

I am not a pilot yet, but I already feel anxious whenever I hear "call this number"

@milo4008

5 жыл бұрын

I just wouldn't call it and they would just forget about it because they are so busy all the time.

@yoopernow

5 жыл бұрын

Oh, they're like the IRS. You can just ignore them.... (Yeah, right)

@ConnorDWolves

5 жыл бұрын

@@milo4008 I don't think its that easy to avoid them

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Hoping not to hear that thing ever referred to me :(

@Jopanaguiton

5 жыл бұрын

Got couple deviations my self from heading to altitude and luckily so far with an apology and correcting immediately never got that phrase yet.

As a fellow ATC let me say this, this is fantastic controlling. One thing we don't hear or see is all the coordination and activity happening away from the mic in the midst of this

@ThoolooExpress

4 жыл бұрын

It would be cool to hear recordings of the intercom channels used to coordinate between controllers. (I'm assuming they exist, because it wouldn't make sense for them to just be yelling across the room)

@jr13227

4 жыл бұрын

Ohare controllers are the best they come

@samsaunders85

4 жыл бұрын

ThoolooExpress They do exist, but they are held back for the exact reasons you stated haha :P

@shaneboulds5240

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThoolooExpress they for sure yelled across the room with how quickly this happened

@IntoTheNothing1

3 жыл бұрын

Chicago controllers are honestly the best out of anywhere i fly to. Im based at ohare for another regional (not envoy lol)

The pilot dialed in 010 as it turned out.

@austinfarley4971

3 жыл бұрын

If that's the case, I assume it just wanted to take the scenic turn.

@cptcrogge

3 жыл бұрын

Happens to the best ppl when you lack your morning coffee

@LadyLithias

3 жыл бұрын

I'm dyslexic and it's almost entirely focused on numbers rather than letters (sometimes I perceive letters AS numbers).... so I would have made a lousy pilot. I do alright, but I know that it's likely I'll mix up a number if I'm not super careful. I have to touch the number on the page, while saying it out loud. If I try to say a whole number without taking it one piece at a time, I'm very likely to mess it up. Of course, this leads to endless amusement for my students, since I'm a MATH teacher!

@cptcrogge

3 жыл бұрын

@@LadyLithias I won't lie, the last sentence got me :D

@TonboIV

3 жыл бұрын

@@LadyLithias It could be worse. I remember a young highschool math teacher, we might even have been his first class, walking at the front of the room, telling us his 'expectations' of us. Because he was looking at us, he walked into the trashcan and hurt his foot, and after that he never got any respect.

Thank you, ATC, for the immediate reaction and professionalism. 👍🏼

Man this incident scares me as a pilot. It highlights why strong CRM and sterile cockpit is so important. Both pilots need their head in the game and completely focused on the task at hand, and working as a good team. Twisting 010 instead of 100, or missing the NAV mode cue on your flight mode annunciator (expecting the RNAV SID) in your crosscheck is so easy to do if even a little distracted.

Remember chaps, this is not a blame game. Try to envisage how many error free sectors they've flown prior to this incident. I'd be surprised if those pilots received more than a ticking off. This process is all about how to make things better in an industry where human error is expected to occur. You WILL make a mistake, I guarantee it.

@rubenvillanueva8635

4 жыл бұрын

SenorCrazylegs ...Yes, sooner ir later, you are, apt to roll snake eyes!

@prorobo

4 жыл бұрын

SenorCrazylegs they were both fired. The CA was rehired thanks to union intervention. The FO was still on probation and was not eligible for protection.

@SenorCrazylegs

4 жыл бұрын

@@prorobo There may have been more to it, but that's not nice to hear.

@patrickpersson10

3 жыл бұрын

The main reason they were fired was Al Sharpton was on this flight so it was a high profile case. Otherwise they probably would’ve gone to simulator training to receive “remedial training “

@sbrmilitia

3 жыл бұрын

@@patrickpersson10 Al Sharpton is protected by Jesus. I guess FO doesn’t get the same treatment.

I’m guessing a pilot’s heart sinks when they’re asked to get ready to write down a phone number.

@martintheiss743

5 жыл бұрын

yes when the pilots call in they would have to be prepared to report the incident to the supervising ATC on duty at the moment and hopefully would be on time to assist their report to the FAA DC office.

glad there were subtitles as I barely understood what 3603 pilot was mumbling at times. Stark contrast to tower as well as American 272 which was crisp and clear despite more radio noise

Really appreciating these added explanations that you have been posting within the video to help those of us who aren't pilots ourselves.

You can feel the panic in the tower upon realizing a possible collision. Some fast talking ensued.

@geezerhull

4 жыл бұрын

but clear thank heavens

@davidodos244

4 жыл бұрын

@@robertcowling4313 The collision you are referring to was in Überlingen. The controller did not try clear against the TCAS. The controller had no idea that the pilots even got a TCAS warning, since TCAS is not visible for a controller. The reason for that collision was that he gave both pilots instructions that would have cleared them, But while in Russia it was usual to listen to the controller in case of TCAS warning, the DHL aircraft (rightfully) listened to TCAS instead. Unfortunately by 1 aircraft listening to TCAS and the other listening to the controller, they both performed the same maneouver and collided. Since then it is obligatory to always listen to TCAS (and preferably let the ATC know that you got a TCAS warning)

A great example of the difference between being a commercial pilot or ATC and other occupations. In many professions, a simple mistake such as turning a knob to 010 instead of 100 may end in a wasted product or damage to a machine. It may cause a taxi to make an extra mile out of his way or the cashier at the store to charge you a dollar to much. In a worst case, it can kill the worker that makes the mistake. However, this same mistake when made here in this situation could have ended in the death of over 200 people in the planes and likely more on the ground. ATC is such a critical process, and in my experience, employs the best of the best as is demonstrated here. That controller over the length of his entire shift for his entire career can NOT in any circumstance operate at less than 100% attention 100% of the time, even for 10 seconds. Had he done that here, that 10 seconds would’ve undoubtedly changed the outcome from a lesson to a tragedy.

@kaya5168

Жыл бұрын

@Mike Kabakov There are computers on board that calculate every second of the flight with the data put in there by the pilots, and there are Navigation Displays with far more data then the Google Maps. Atc controllers just coordinate planes, because all of the planes have different routes different plans and someone needs to put them in order

@kaya5168

Жыл бұрын

@Mike Kabakov Atcs give commands almost exclusively in high traffic areas (airport vicinity) and in case of emergencies.

@LuxPerp

Жыл бұрын

Hyperbole isn't helpful in aviation. There are moments when an inattentive, distracted or disabled controller can cause disaster, but there also stretches of time far longer than this when no such disaster occurs. Consider the controller at KLAS who was impaired on the job for a protracted period and attentive pilots ensured that no carnage or accidents ensued. it's important that controllers and pilots avoid mistakes. The goal of the system is to build redundancy and safty nets into standard procedures to minimize the impact of mistakes that do occur. This tape is a good example of that system working. Perhaps if the controller had not been so attentive TCAS would have prevented the potential collision. Fortunately that's just conjecture.

Someone is not getting their safety bonus this month.

In my opinion...It sounds to me like 3603's departure heading of 100 was a change from what they were assigned previously or the SID. You hear the controller say "Now fly heading 100... cleared for takeoff". I'm guessing the heading bug wasn't adjusted to the 100 heading and followed the original heading when they activated LNAV. That's a CRM issue. Kudos to the alert controller.

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Good point! I didn't catch their first original departure clearance

@dcoops17

5 жыл бұрын

ORD5 the only departure Sid from ORD is a vectored departure. There is no assigned heading until tower assigns one. Loss of separation is always a phone call, and subsequent report. The FAA is more interested in compiling data to mitigate future occurrences. This information helps the FAA and airlines better train and fix weakness' in the system. Which is why it's self disclosure hotline is in place.

@billyray3761

5 жыл бұрын

@@VASAviation He was assigned heading 100 prior to roll, and he acknowledged. (By repeating the towers instructions.)

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

I meant any possible clearance before the 100 heading.

@derpanzerkoniggaming4224

5 жыл бұрын

I'm sure on Monday I can look up the flight plan and tell you what was filed.

CALL THIS NUMBER FOR A POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION. 8 words that could really ruin your day

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Indeed :(

@RainbowManification

5 жыл бұрын

Most of the time if you fess up to the controller nothing happens to you unless it was a particularly serious infraction. Fill out ASRS report before you call the number. NOT calling the number almost always results in the incident being passed to the FSDO, so it's wise to just take the ass chewing. Filing the ASRS report could be the difference between a fine and certificate action if the controller does decide to bust you. Of course the FAA will do their own investigation

@Jerryman1980

5 жыл бұрын

@@RainbowManification I am an aircraft mechanic that taxis aircraft from the hangar to the gate and vice versa at ORD. I was on the radios one night and the driver wasn't listening to ATC. This was right after the Chicago Department of Aviation closed down T1 to T and started sending us up SS to Z then YY. The driver turned right on T1 as I was letting him know he was going the wrong way. We immediately stopped before we got onto T and I alerted ATC to our mistake. We got the same "please call the tower" after we got back onto SS. We had to wait for a CDA official and explain what ourselves. The CDA official was very cool about our deviation and didn't take any further action upon us.

@yoopernow

5 жыл бұрын

I'm getting an acid stomach in sympathy with the guy. He should hand off flying duties for this leg...

@brgimscht

4 жыл бұрын

most of the time it's not about ruining your day, it's about investigating why this happened and how to avoid such things in the future (maybe new rules or procedures may result in these things)

Any plans to show the incident in YHZ where the AC 767 slid off the side of an iced up runway? How about the accident in Presque-Ilse? Both were in the same nasty snow storm.

If you’re the Envoy pilots, how hard is it to focus back up and fly the rest of the flight? Are you nervous the whole time about whatever consequences might befall you?

@mgmmj6664

5 жыл бұрын

no they have to stay professional for the rest of the flight

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

We must stay professional but you know you are in a bit of trouble when you receive a number to call.

@drd1962

2 жыл бұрын

@@doughooks7411 let's not have that Brandon garbage here.

@doughooks7411

2 жыл бұрын

@@drd1962 Okay, Karen.

@drd1962

2 жыл бұрын

@@doughooks7411 Quite the wit aren't you? The point remains only a crass neanderthal brings politics into things like this. You might have to look up crass. I doubt you education took you that far.

That stop climb reaction was way quick. Kudos.

@zitazerg

4 жыл бұрын

Egyetértek!

010? Number misplacement?

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Good point.

@NochEinKamel

5 жыл бұрын

Runway 10? okay, autopilot to 10... :-o

@MickAv8r

5 жыл бұрын

Yep was my first thought. 010 on the heading bug. Most likely reason.

@cockatoo010

5 жыл бұрын

Envoy is the callsign for an American Eagle. Those are typically overworked, underpaid and less experienced pilots. Maybe that contributed to their misplacement. I can sympatize with them

@Ale290690

5 жыл бұрын

That’s exactly what happened

Forget the airplanes potentially crashing, my brain actually did. That these guys can read all this stuff and bark out instructions so fast while maintaining safe separation and keeping things running smoothly is incredible

@crairdin

Жыл бұрын

It's no different than carrying on a conversation while driving. Climbing out on runway heading is pretty straightforward. Repeating instructions back to the tower is easier than telling them what you had for breakfast or what you think the Cubs' chances are this year. They're saying something to you in a formulaic way and it matches exactly what you expect. You're reading back what you already expected them to say and at the same time following that instruction. It's a self-reinforcing process. Someone asked me once how I can do a position report at an uncontrolled field while on final, what with controlling airspeed, maintaining a crab into the wind, dropping flaps, etc. and my answer was "I'm not doing anything else; might as well talk on the radio". This stuff becomes second nature. The real question isn't how they manage it all, but how the screwed up. I suspect he heard the heading for the other airplane and thought it was for him.

Love it how their voice always change when they read back "ready to copy number"

Honestly I feel bad for the Envoy pilot but this will be a good lesson to learn and hopefully he keeps his job and this doesn’t effect advancement in the future for him.

@user-we8mu7lf6x

5 жыл бұрын

The Envoy pilots were both fired apparently

@essel23fly

5 жыл бұрын

spankyspangler mcgee no way

@dmhendricks

4 жыл бұрын

@@user-we8mu7lf6x Yikes, makes me glad that I'm not a pilot. I realize that such errors can be _very serious_, but it would suck to get fired for transposing two numbers. :/ Thank goodness for the ORD controller.

@marcospark2803

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-we8mu7lf6x Sources...

@jdmmuscle4727

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-we8mu7lf6x probably not

Hello, can you do the possible cargo fire with an air transit flight from YUL-FLL? It diverted to EWR about an hour ago. All runways at EWR were closed. Many flight diverted

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Uploaded ;)

010 instead of 100. Everyone being guilty of a typo at one point can relate to that, I guess.

Are the phone numbers hidden somehow if you're listening to the frequency with a scanner, or online?

I think the fact that the runway number was also "10" confused the pilot. At 0:34 he reads back "100 10L cleared for take off". He internally parsed that as "10 010" and entered the "010" heading into the computer, causing the incident. Perhaps there should be clearer separation between the heading number and the runway number either in readback or ATC instructions, especially when the digits are coincident.

@Musikur

3 жыл бұрын

Nah, this happens literally all the time, by definition the runway number and heading are like this. As a pilot you expect that the heading and runway number are the same with just the last 0 missing from the runway, if anything this should have clued them into their mistake. Usually the controller just says "fly runway heading" though like they did with the flight on 9R.

@daveluttinen2547

3 жыл бұрын

Most autopilot numbers are punched in prior to taxi, some during, and then later as instructed by ATC. This is done to reduce workload during critical times. Taxiing is one that you have to have your head on a swivel. One would not recognize a turn initiated by the autopilot if it is performed correctly. Were they IFR? It is one thing to see downtown Chicago: it is entirely something else to see solid gray when hardball.

Well I'll be damned, I was wrenching on 662 a couple days ago

TWR: "We have a number for you to call when ready; 3603: "ready to copy" TWR: "773-6" 3603: "876-4, Envoy 3603"

CA stands for Conflict Alert.

Awesome job with the AAL pilot following the TCAS and coordinating that with the tower.

I often forget that Chicago has SIX RUNWAYS FACING THE SAME DIRECTION. O'hare seems tailor made for issuing pilot deviations en mass

The pilot may have thought that he could just take off and fly runway heading when he said to takeoff on 10L and assumed his heading would be 100 but was actually 90. Normally runway 10L implies a 100 runway heading but in this case it is actually 90. The reason 10L was used is because Ohare has so many runways... it has a 9L\9C\9R so they had to use 10L.

I heard the same thing when I was a kid except it was "report to the Principal's office".

Co-pilot should have caught the captain's heading error. Was out to lunch?

I think regardless of who is at fault, it is in my opinion a very poor practice to request a pilot to copy a number to contact ATC. Possibly after landing, but certainly not after takeoff! That person will now for the remainder of the flight think about his possible deviation despite not knowing all the facts, will be distracted from his duties (worrying about a possible dismissal, fine, temporary suspension etc...) and since he is unable to call until he lands, what's the point of telling him in flight? Get in touch with the company, file a report with the CAA, there are more appropriate channels to go through rather than telling a pilot he's done something wrong while he's still busy cleaning up his aircraft and accelerating to his en-route climb speed at less than 10,000 feet!

@buckeyehockey1979

5 жыл бұрын

That is procedure and I believe federal law for them to contact tower asap. If they were paying any attention at all they already knew what happened.

@smitty1893

5 жыл бұрын

ATC is required to give a brasher warning and tell the flight crew "possible pilot deviation" as soon as they are aware of such deviation. If you wanted to wait to give a number you would then have to coordinate with the next facility or possibly the second facility down the road. I understand and even agree with your point. It's more out of practicality that the gave the a phone number.

@tabaks

5 жыл бұрын

Bullshit.

@davidmichael5573

5 жыл бұрын

The number being given is a so-what. With as much stuff going on if you can’t add something else to your list for 30 seconds then you shouldn’t be in the front seat. You have to be able to push things to the side and deal with flying. Things do go wrong up there and you have to be ready for it. So adding the call tower is really nothing. And tower is not gonna chew your ass out they are gonna ask what happened then it’s turned over to the FAA to make a decision on what to do.

@jonesjones7057

5 жыл бұрын

I've argued the same thing for years. This would be easy to coordinate with atc to have ground control at the destination notify the crew of the possible deviation. They could have a simple tag to add to the trip for this. Every time I hear atc instruct a crew to take down a number I think oh boy, that crew is going to be distracted the rest of that flight worried about their whole career. Not good especially a young commuter crew with decades of potential career loss or at least flow through loss which is about as bad.

I don't listed to much ORD ATC. Are those typical takeoff vectors for 9R and 10L? Why not RNAV with parallel runways + north and south controllers?

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Only vectored departures at ORD.

@gordo1163

5 жыл бұрын

There are no RNAV SIDs in ORD

TCAS isn't something you wanna hear go off in the cockpit

tcas tells the pilots only to climb or descend right? its the atcs jobs to turn them to opposing headings if they are too close?

@AirTCO

5 жыл бұрын

In case if TCAS ra report controller should say nothing until conflict resolved. Yes now it gives just vertical instructions

@randomgooglename

5 жыл бұрын

AirTCO so controller will only give heading adjustments and they will also be notified of the conflict?

@kd5you1

5 жыл бұрын

In this case the atc instructed 3603 to stop climbing and remain at 5000.

Stumbled onto this video. Late comment I know. But based on right vs left how can 10L and 9r be (show on the screen) from right to left? Shouldn’t it be the opposite ? From Left to right (on screen)

@Arc1583

4 жыл бұрын

the video is too zoomed in, ORD has 5 west to east (or east to west ) runways. runways you cant see that are confusing you are 9L, 10C (center), and 10 R. airport diagram is attached. crazy busy airport. i had to check the diagram myself because i was confused also haha commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ORD_Airport_Diagram.svg

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

North of the airport is 10 left, center and right. South of the airport is 9 left, center, and right. All actually head 90 degrees, but R,C,L are the only destinations available so one set is called 10.

I always wonder why they'd be asked to copy down a phone number while flying a plane. That's like someone texting me when they know I'm driving.

@dkmooninite

2 жыл бұрын

It's pretty routine and most pilots keep a pad of some kind around for jotting down complex instructions for example if there is a change in approach or departure. A phone number is one of the easier things they can jot down and they are not expected to call until they are back on the ground.

@kbaylor123

Жыл бұрын

@@dkmooninite Plus there is a copilot there too, right? And if autopilot is engaged, I imagine it isn’t like diving where you really can’t take your hands off the wheel and eye off the road for a few seconds. Although, yes, first priority is flying the plane, if they need to have ATC stand by, that’s totally fine. I could be wrong, I’m not an aviator, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

@dkmooninite

Жыл бұрын

@@kbaylor123 yeah they could also request another readback. Or ask their arrival tower to check with their departing airport. Generally you have your notes/scratch paper attached to the yoke, or your leg with a kneeboard, with a clip so that access shouldn't be that distracting.

The aircraft got a TCAS alert do they follow TCAS or the tower? I think they follow the TCAS but this is so close after takeoff.

@hgbugalou

5 жыл бұрын

AFIAK TCAS always trumps ATC.

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

TCAS can give you a TA or a RA. RA is what gives you instructions to be performed immediately to avoid collision and you MUST follow RA disregarding ATC. I think these guys just received a TA which gives information of possible imminent collision.

@nenblom

5 жыл бұрын

Random Acts of Video That was the main issue that caused the Uberlingen disaster. Remember that was a midair collision between a Russian passenger jet and a Boeing 757 cargo jet flying for DHL. They collided over southern Germany because, if I remember right, the flight crew of the Russian jet decided to follow the controller’s instructions and descend while the crew of the DHL flight decided to follow TCAS’s instructions which was also saying to descend. At the last minute, the Russian crew started a steep climb. Unfortunately, it was too late. According to what I have heard, pilots are now instructed to follow TCAS’s instructions.

@mattreynolds3747

5 жыл бұрын

@@nenblom Depends if TA or RA. RA is suppressed at low altitude. Only resolution advisories trump ATC.

@jeffa251

5 жыл бұрын

This question has actually caused a collision between 2 passenger jets if I remember correctly. One of the planes followed TCAS, the other the tower. Both climbed and collided...

Did the TCAS get to the stage where it gave an instruction for the pilots to act, or just the initial advisory warning? I was having flashbacks of Überlingen when ATC continued giving them avoidance vectors.

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

If TCAS gives an RA (Resolution Advisory), pilots must follow TCAS and disregard ATC instructions. These pilots turned and climbed according to ATC so I assume only TA (Traffic Advisory) showed up.

@marcel1416

5 жыл бұрын

Additionally to that, pilots have to announce the international standardized phraseology of "Callsign123, TCAS RA" on frequency as soon as the pilots get a resolution advisory from the TCAS system. Doing that, the controller knows to just let the pilots and their TCAS system handle the situation and not give any contradicting instructions (Überlingen...). When the pilots completed the resolution advisory and the systems confirms clear of conflict, pilots announce "Callsign123, clear of conflict".

@davidmichael5573

5 жыл бұрын

marcel1416 that may be required but I’ve heard on freq an airline tell after TCAS took over that TCAS took over. And all ATC told him was good job. But ATC was trying to separate at the same time TCAS took over.

@GigsVT

5 жыл бұрын

@@davidmichael5573 To be clear tcas doesn't take over. It just yells at them with increasing urgency.

@fadimo305

5 жыл бұрын

@@GigsVT on some aircraft a TCAS RA results in AP performing the maneuver to clear the conflict. Some not all.

"Possible pilot deviation....prepare to copy down this number to call ✈👨‍✈️🤦‍♂️😥 this must be among a pilot's worst nightmare and soooo humiliating considering the normal pilot ego lol

What does pilot deviation mean? Thanks,

@calirambo7896

5 жыл бұрын

It means he's deviating from his paycheck for a while

@TheRealPlato

5 жыл бұрын

i believe it means the pilot flew the plane differently than what he read back to ATC

@prankmonkey650

4 жыл бұрын

The Real Plato means Pilot deviated from the approved atc clearance, or flight plan. He was cleared on the 100 heading, he turned left to a 010 possible heading. Mistakes happen, that’s why the redundancy of atc, pilots using crm, and tcas.

@dmimcg

3 жыл бұрын

It's when you do too much coke and your nose canal get's destroyed.

I would have told the controller that I lost my pen.

@kbaylor123

Жыл бұрын

I saw a video where the pilot didn’t have a pen (or said they didn’t anyway) In that case I think they get flagged somehow and are asked to contact the tower after they land so they can get the number they need to call.

what does it mean by"up to hold short "

@jordanrodrigues8265

4 жыл бұрын

It's slightly non-standard. I think it means AMERICAN 1119, TAXI STRAIGHT AHEAD, HOLD SHORT RUNWAY ONE ZERO LEFT For clarity and double-checking these instructions are supposed to remind the aircraft where you're expecting it to be: AMERICAN 1119, TAXI VIA ZULU, HOLD SHORT RUNWAY ONE ZERO LEFT This is a ground-movement clearance prompting AAL1119 to continue moving forward in line, but to not enter the runway zone. If a "hold position" instruction was previously given then this would give permission, otherwise it's just a reminder. (At O'Hare, taxiway Z is parallel to the west edge of the airfield, the left edge of the screen.) (edit: derp, it's a good thing I'm not actually a pilot)

@dongweichen5837

4 жыл бұрын

@@jordanrodrigues8265 thx

@prorobo

4 жыл бұрын

dongwei chen they were holding short at an intersection with opposite direction traffic, up to simply means hold short of the runway since you're #1.

How could the pilot possibly be confused when the guy was reading the take-off clearance instructions as fast as possible like an auctioneer?

I’m a little busy right now. I’ll call you tomorrow.

why does ATC quote the frequency as 126.2, but the pilot repeats back 26.2? Not just in this video, it seems to be some sort of convention

@Cain-x

3 жыл бұрын

Probably shorthand since not many freqs go above 1xx.xx

@connoregan2874

3 жыл бұрын

Most frequency start with 1.

What does pilot deviation mean? Thanks!

@CocoEspada

5 жыл бұрын

Giacomo Barra The pilot “deviated” or changed from what the original ATC command was, which was a heading of 100 degrees after takeoff. You must have a DAMN good reason (usually safety/emergency related) to “deviate” from that command. A report to the FAA UPON REQUEST is required.

Ahhhh, the dreaded number...

With the loss of separation it is automatically passed to FSDO. But they prob have ASAP reporting and a union so they’ll be good

@prorobo

4 жыл бұрын

Customer Service both pilots were fired. The CA was rehired after union intervention, the FO was on probation and not afforded the same.

@prorobo

3 жыл бұрын

nightstalker you have a reading comprehension problem then since what I posted is exactly what happened. Both were fired, CA got his job back, FO is gone.

@prorobo

3 жыл бұрын

nightstalker you have no idea how ASAP works nor the details with this specific incident. Stick to KZread.

@prorobo

3 жыл бұрын

nightstalker you probably should resign since it is painfully obviously you have no idea how it works and what events it protects. But since you claim to be at an airline, maybe you should reach out to someone you know at Envoy and ask them what happened to the pilots from this incident and you'll learn that I already twice explained to you what transpired but you're too dense to understand.

@prorobo

3 жыл бұрын

nightstalker ah the inevitable name calling once you've lost the argument move. Very predictable. What's funny is that in no possible way am I wrong yet you continue to dig your hole. Enjoy life at Mesa making $38/hr or whatever you do until AA pulls the plug and your sinking ship goes under completely. Thank god you're not a part of the safety committee at my company, anyone needing help would be absolutely screwed.

Probably a job opportunity at AA.

@ryanaustin6801

5 жыл бұрын

Not usually. Usually these types of things get an ASAP report filed which protects the pilot legally, and not much else other than an FAA person giving you a rundown on what happened and a stern talking-to,

@stuartcampbell3847

5 жыл бұрын

Envoy not AA

@kitsune9329

5 жыл бұрын

you just got double wooshed... my god the people this days...

@uzlonewolf

5 жыл бұрын

Ryan Austin Even if no FAA regulations were violated a company can still demote or fire someone if company policy was not followed. I doubt anything is going to happen in this case, but ASAP doesn't save you from company action.

@vaporized1000

5 жыл бұрын

Ryan Austin you are thinking of an ASRS report which does not protect the pilot legally in all cases. It is a factor that may cause a more lenient punishment.

I think it could be a confirmation bias issue here. Pilots were used to taking off from 9R and making that left turn to the point where they expected to make that turn, even though they were not on that runway this time around.

Watching several of these videos seems like pilots are constantly calling people on the phone. Do they have some special radio patch-through phone or ar they just using a normal cellphone?

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

This is a radio.

When the envoy pilot was told to contact the tower.. what does that mean? A chewing out? Them telling the pilot they filed a complaint?? A fine??

@BJ-jb2ec

5 жыл бұрын

The dreaded "Call this number when able" is like a student being called to the principal's office over the school's loudspeaker announcement system. The cockpit crew, and in particular the captain, will be in trouble. The FAA will get after them, and their employer will likely impose severe penalties. Could definitely impact the career of the captain, at least.

@mattreynolds3747

5 жыл бұрын

Rather than clogging up frequency, they talk about it later to see who needs to file what paperwork. ATC will go over recordings and the pilots will get their story straight before they compare notes. The point of this is not to assign blame to a person, but rather to a system and a process which may need to be improved or revised.

@drfaustus72

5 жыл бұрын

The main reason is to compile an incident report. Once you get through all the blaming and armchair piloting, nothing bad happened here. No one got hurt, no damage to anything except pride. ATC resolved the problem, TCAS had an alert, the system worked. This is a very good thing because now we can all learn from it. What went wrong for this situation to happen? When you have parallel takeoffs you are accepting a very high level of calculated risk. When you have separate controllers for parallel runways (as is common), the pilots are limited in the situational awareness, because they can't hear the other plane's takeoff clearance. TCAS has severe limitations at ground and low level. This will help to answer the question, how can this be prevented in the future?

@saxmanb777

5 жыл бұрын

My law professor told me never to call them back. It’s like admitting to the FAA you are guilty and they will come after you because you admitted you messed up. Never call the tower and if you do don’t admit or say anything.

@billybuttons4298

5 жыл бұрын

@@saxmanb777 As an airline pilot, that's the stupidest shit I've heard.

Will you be posting the Laudamotion incident that happened in London?

@FrankyLon

5 жыл бұрын

Probabaly he will not. It is illegal to listen to, let alone record and publish ATC conversations in the UK.

Thanks for sharing brother that was a close one

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for watching!

asking out of total ignorance...but I'm sure there are some commercial pilots on here.... Does that basically mean the end of his career? What are the probable ramifications? If I'm not mistaken, ATC only gets one chance to make an error, correct? Same for pilots?

@saxmanb777

5 жыл бұрын

Nothing will happen to the pilot. At worst a letter in their file, but that isn’t a big deal.

@mattreynolds3747

5 жыл бұрын

Most safety management systems emphasis a 'just' culture to encourage reporting. At the end of the day it's not a person that fails but a system or process.

Not a pilot, just an aviation addict. What usually happens to pilots making that call? I mean, except for Harrison Ford who seems to mess up frequently and probably signs autographs and memorabilia for folks to keep his license.

So what happens if you dont call the number??

@johnopalko5223

5 жыл бұрын

When you call you get a chance to explain why you deviated from ATC instructions. Depending on your explanation, and your demeanor, ATC may drop it right there or decide to report the incident to the FAA. If you don't bother to call, ATC will definitely file a report on the incident, also including the fact that you didn't bother to call as instructed. Expect an invitation to visit your local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) to have a nice little chat with an inspector. It's an embarrassing phone call to have to make but ignoring it will only make it worse.

@larsperkins9631

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnopalko5223 Not just demeanor, but also policy. You can be contrite and apologetic, and the controller very understanding, but policies sometime dictate that the deviation must be reported. Don't ask how I know.

@johnopalko5223

3 жыл бұрын

@@larsperkins9631 You're right, of course. I was making the point that being argumentative, ignoring the phone call, etc., would only make the situation worse. I had neglected the obverse where, no matter how contrite, respectful, and cooperative you are, you just might get reported anyway. The controller might feel really bad about it, but if those are the rules... And, okay, I won't ask. 😉

@larsperkins9631

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnopalko5223Yes, you're totally right on the point you made. I don't usually comment because everyone seems to want to misinterpret everything as criticism etc., so let me be clear I wasn't disagreeing with you just adding a little .. ahem .. personal experience. Not calling would definitely be a very bad thing to do.

@johnopalko5223

3 жыл бұрын

@@larsperkins9631 Oh, no, please don't worry about that where I'm concerned. I realized what you were saying and I appreciate that you took the time to remind me that I had left a lot unsaid. I understand your desire to tread lightly, though. Social media (and online life in general) can be a minefield these days.

Possible for you get do one for N752WJ, just departed from LAX 3 March ? Gear would not retract, burning fuel and turning back to VNY. Would be great if you could. Thank you

Great ATC job. But...if it happened in Ukraine (we have parallel departures in UKBB), ATC would be fired for vectoring below MRVA)

@tabaks

5 жыл бұрын

Or not.

@BollocksUtwat

5 жыл бұрын

There are countless rules in place to describe how they can give instructions. Rules to exempt rules. And nobody is going to fire a controller for giving a vector below MVA if it avoided a mid air collision, especially since controllers can look out the window too and see the airplane, unlike most radar controllers.

A little deviation never killed nobody.

Looks like he was going to a 010 instead of 100. That’s my bet. It’s amazing how a small thing can ruin your day as a pilot, much less, impact your career.

So I imagine a pilot deviation is fairly serious but maybe someone here could explain that process to me because I’m not entirely sure what goes on after something like this happens.

@jordanrodrigues8265

4 жыл бұрын

ATC gives you a phone number, you are *strongly* encouraged to call and have an informal chat but are not legally bound. Obviously, you can delay that call while you're focused on the safety of your flight. You also have the option of filing with the Aviation Safety Reporting System. This report is immune from self-incrimination - the FAA can't use it against you and NASA does initial processing and anonymization. The FAA only finds out *whether* you filed in connection with an incident; they shouldn't find out what you filed and they absolutely can't introduce it as evidence in court. The goal of this program is to derive constructive feedback for improving safety procedures. If you cooperate, that's usually where things end. If you don't you show a pattern of being unable to learn from mistakes, that's when the FAA wants to throw the book at you and your employer. I haven't found the report for this incident, but other comments suggest that the pilots entered the heading 010 instead of 100 into the flight/director autopilot and followed that. It's a very understandable mistake to make, and NASA ASRS should be figuring out whether it's frequent enough to consider changing procedures to avoid it. The fact that ORD departs a *lot* of parallel traffic likely contributed. Sometimes you can turn left across the other runways immediately, sometimes not. And the airport is busy enough that the other runways are on different frequencies, so that doesn't help the situational awareness. Just spitballing but, perhaps "DEPARTURE STRAIGHT AHEAD HEADING 100" vs "DEPARTURE THEN LEFT TURN HEADING 010" would be clearer. But then you need a procedure for determining when ATC should give the longer form.

Swayne Martin is that you??? ;)

@mahu1982

5 жыл бұрын

that was my first thought.

@stephenbritton9297

5 жыл бұрын

OUCH! hope not.

@darwinawardcommittee

5 жыл бұрын

jameslea312 Definitely not him on the radio

@jameslea312

5 жыл бұрын

Eric Olson it was a joke bud ;)

@CarsonSchmidt419

5 жыл бұрын

:((

He was like 30deg off his assigned heading. I wonder how that happened. Maybe he heard the turn instruction of the guy to the left and did the same.

@WilliamPitcher

5 жыл бұрын

They were on separate frequencies.

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

Didn't you read the context thing right at the beginning?😢😢😢

@delawarepilot

5 жыл бұрын

Did now, I’m watching on a small phone at work, I can’t read that :-)

Has to pause video to rewind... phone goes tumbling to the floor. And you are still asking today why we need these a little longer. It's not just reading we have to do it's processing as well and you're not even accounting for people who don't have English as their first language. Never trying to be rude although I know that with all the hard work you do the last thing you need is complaints. It's just a vital part of the video and it's always a pain to have to pause it and Rewind because you didn't read the last sentence.

What does a Pilot Deviation mean? What are the consequences?

@TheMoonRover

4 жыл бұрын

The pilot deviated from what they were instructed to do. In this case the Envoy pilot had mistakenly selected heading 010 instead of 100, putting them on a potential collision course. The pilot who deviated is then told to call a phone number to explain what happened, after which a report is made. It's not about assigning blame or punishing anyone, as these things are generally just a case of simple human error. There was no real danger here. The controller gave swift instructions to avoid collision. Failing that, an automated system called TCAS on board both aircraft would've issued instructions if they got closer (as it was, TCAS only issued warnings).

@brock83995

4 жыл бұрын

TheMoonRover ahh okay, thank you very much.

Now, who’s record does that violation go on Captain’s or F/O’s

@markmaki4460

3 жыл бұрын

Both, i would say - they are supposed to check each other. They are "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Monitoring".

@nickgresla234

3 жыл бұрын

@@markmaki4460 interesting I would think it would be on the pilot monitoring to avoid the close call, pilot flying’s job is to just fly the airplane and execute checklists while PM reads off the items

Oops

It's challenging to see exactly what happened with the way these graphics were presented but it appears as if both pilots deviated from their assigned headings and both took a northerly heading almost immediately after takeoff

I have no idea what just happened. Did someone do something wrong? Didnt they follow instructions???

Soooo. As a non pilot here . What happens when you call that number.....what questions are you asked, and who are you talking to?

@vaporized1000

5 жыл бұрын

David W. They tell you what happened and what reg you broke if applicable, they give you a chance to explain, they get your details and cert info and then decide whether or not to pass it onto the FAA. It is possible that if you are remorseful they may decide to let you off with the equivalent of a warning. However if it was a significant issue such as this one, they probably would be passed to the FAA for investigation and possible remedial action such as stripping of qualifications or suspensions

@martintheiss743

5 жыл бұрын

@@vaporized1000 why not pass it off as the burger vendor in the concourse?

@morganghetti

5 жыл бұрын

@@vaporized1000 it's going outside of the facility regardless. It's not up the the controller of that tower if and there will be any punitive action.

Please : What is a pilot deviation ? Why does the pilot has to call this number ? What can happen to him?

@isladurrant7895

5 жыл бұрын

The pilot did not follow ATC instructions - he should've flown to the right while the aircraft on the left was instructed to fly left so they were flying away from each other, his bearing was flying towards the other airplane. A near-miss occurred because of this deviation and a report to authorities must be made, the pilot must call the number to say why this happened and make his own report - also the pilot of the other airplane as his TCAS warning activated. Pilots, ATC, passengers and airline companies prefer aircraft to be separated vertically and/ or horizontally because aircraft contacting each other doesn't tend to end well. What happens is that the incident is investigated and action taken as recommended... I don't know why this happened so I can't say the pilot was to blame entirely. Possibly company policies may have to be reviewed, possibly it may be noted on pilot's files, possibly further training? Unless it was due to drink/drugs/serious illness it shouldn't be too bad.

@itellyouforfree7238

3 жыл бұрын

A pilot deviation is when the pilot is no longer straight but turns gay. They have to call the number, leave their last message on the voice mail and then they get executed as soon as they set foot on the ground once they land

Two of the runways at 2:00 are now taxi ways

@SpontaneityJD

4 жыл бұрын

what do you mean

@TheNewTimeNetwork

4 жыл бұрын

@@SpontaneityJD Two of the nine runways highlighted are not used anymore. The northwest-southeast parallel runways 15L/33R and 15R/33L were both abandoned a few years ago. Parts of 15L/33R are now taxiway G3 and the "Orchard Pad". Parts of 15R/33C are now taxiway SS. On the other hand, a new runway 9C/27C is currently under construction.

What we don’t know is what each aircraft was assigned to for departure clearance. Did the tower know this ahead of and issue the correct alteration to keep the planes separated? Sure looked and sounded like a shit show. Glad no one was hurt!

@VASAviation

4 жыл бұрын

You know what their instruction was because I display it in the video.

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

0:29 “Fly heading 100”. 0:39 “Fly runway heading”. Both repeated back accurately. Diverging by 10 degrees after takeoff.

Presumably there are 4 runways in parallel here, because otherwise that Left and Right seems to be the wrong way round.

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

There are 6 in parallel - 9 right, center, left to the north and 10 right, center, left to the south. All six are actually 90 true/93 magnetic, but one set is labeled 10 to differentiate. Plus 4 right and left (and all of their 180 degree counterparts).

@itellyouforfree7238

3 жыл бұрын

@@rdspam basically, this is an aerial picture of the airport: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikado_(game)#/media/File:Spiel_Mikado.jpg

@CBeaumontHIGTFY

3 жыл бұрын

@@rdspam Thank you - will have to look at a satellite view to make sure I understand that. !!

What happens if you don’t call the number ? Lol

Simultaneous departures by different controllers on different frequencies. . . left hand, meet mister right hand, be sure to blame it on the pilots. (PS don’t gimme that ‘it’s SOP’ crap). It’s still stupid.

@smitty1893

5 жыл бұрын

Are you suggesting that one controller on one frequency should control traffic on all runways?

@ptrinch

5 жыл бұрын

@@smitty1893 Nick Falzone could do it.

@3x3-x3x-oXo

5 жыл бұрын

It wouldn't have changed anything here. Pilot deviation is a pilot deviation

@BollocksUtwat

5 жыл бұрын

The left and right hand know exactly what they're doing. Its part of standard procedures and basic rules. Tower controllers are responsible for ensuring separation before changing frequencies. Both watch what the other aircraft is doing. Both know what the other would do. They have assigned areas they are allowed to vector within to avoid conflicts. In the end if one controller was controlling both aircraft the same situation would have occurred. The same resolution would have occurred.

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

Pilot flew the wrong heading. Who else do you blame it on? When a driver in a car lane turns into a car into the lane next to him, it is the traffic engineer’s fault for putting two lanes so close to each other? O’Hare has 2,500 operations per day on these runways, as do many other airports with parallel runways.

The 737 gets the short runway, but the ERJ 145 gets the long one.

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

The long one which is shortened to DD and makes almost the same length. AAL is going north-northeast bound on the departure and ENY is going south - that's why.

I don’t mean to sound like I know what’s best, because I don’t, I’m not exactly an air traffic controller or a pilot here, which is why I’m asking. Why didn’t the controller simply stop giving instructions as let TCAS do its job?

@VASAviation

5 жыл бұрын

TCAS didn't give an RA. Just a TA.

@BollocksUtwat

5 жыл бұрын

The TCAS's job is not to resolve a conflict that can be averted. Its job is to resolve a conflict that hasn't been averted. The TCAS never caused an RA because the controller solved the problem. The planes likely never got as close as they would have in the event of an RA instruction. You don't surrender a conflict to the last line of defense against it. You work against it happening and then if the TCAS sends off an RA you then let it resolve it. You don't assume the TCAS will fix it. Its not meant to be a substitute for controllers or pilots taking action.

@uzaiyaro

5 жыл бұрын

P*Funk That does make sense. Thanks.

@davedoe6445

5 жыл бұрын

Also the TCAS only works in the cockpit of the plane, the controller has no indication whose TCAS is going off or not.

@social_media_handle

4 жыл бұрын

P*Funk They got pretty close. I think it was .3 miles and 100 feet.

13.007

why don't they designate short-term call signs instead of having to rattle off their flight(or plane) number every single transmission?

@SpontaneityJD

4 жыл бұрын

too dangerous. one mistake is hundreds of lives

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

Because they need to be correct.

Good job envoy!

IMHO all ATC headings should be issued with an associated relative direction, i.e. ‘turn right heading xxx’ or ‘straight ahead heading ‘xxx’. When they neglect to do that, I include it in my read back for clarity. On more than one occasion, the controller mumbled or there was extraneous noise in the cockpit and I misheard the clearance. When reading back and sharing my understanding including the direction I plan to turn, if that direction isn’t what he intended for me, it becomes completely obvious there is a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up before execution. No harm, no foul. In this case the flight might have been heading for a northerly destination, so a turn to the north might appear reasonable. Expecting a north turn, they heard what they expected even though they read back a straight-ahead departure heading, and dialed in the wrong heading. That’s a pure guess, but it’s happened to me more than once. The relative direction as part of the readback trapped the error each time it has happened to me.

They’ll ASAP it and will move on.

@prorobo

4 жыл бұрын

Cooper Stukel both pilots were fired. The CA was rehired after union intervention, the FO was on probation and was permanently let go.

I wonder if tcas went off they should have lisened to tcas and atc if im correct

@krubokrobu

5 жыл бұрын

I think they meant it was a Traffic Advisory (which just says "traffic, traffic"), not a Resolution Advisory (which gives a specific instruction). Only a Resolution Advisory takes precedence over ATC.

why was it Envoy's pilot fault?

@rdspam

3 жыл бұрын

He was told to fly heading 100 (100 degrees, just slightly south of due east). Instead he turned to heading 010, just east of due north. As another plane was just north of him, instead of moving away at 10 degrees he was headed towards the other plane.

2 things: 1) ATC talks too fast even though it's clear, and 2) the AA pilot's voice had me LOL at 1:49 d/t it's tonation & slight stutter likely d/t fear. All's well that ended well.

@jesster777

5 жыл бұрын

I missed that TCAS callout lmfao I'm dying tho

Controller caught it before the caution went off.

@louf7178

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. Seems it may be a common mistake to be watching for.

Evasive manoeuvres!

1:40 if Boomhauer was a pilot.

Envoy, you in trouble........!

pen

I heard them tell the pilot to call in for pilot deviation, what will be the result?

@martintheiss743

5 жыл бұрын

that's a question for the FAA in DC. Basically you are thinking the pilots did an unsafe turn and threatened another aircraft.

YIKES. That made my heart speed up.

@martintheiss743

5 жыл бұрын

yes an emergency crash radar alerted the flight crew who reported it to turn in a particular direction or climb or drop. it tracks the signal of area transmitters of other planes to see if they pose risks to the said aircraft.