Old Autiiisic dyslexic lady here , I can't stop crying, for the first time in my life I feel heard and validated. Thank you Karl and Lisa. I will have to watch the rest when i calm down. I am so grateful for your sharing. 💜

@karmapalama1

Жыл бұрын

Another old autistic lady here. Check out Lisa’s friend Kelly Rebekah Maroon. 🎉she’s open about stuttering with joy and speaks about the same things

@northernyogi

Жыл бұрын

To hear her speak so clearly about the way dyslexia has impacted her life made me feel seen and heard!!! SO BEAUTIFUL LISA!!

@laisa.

Жыл бұрын

I'm also on pause in the video, crying, only 5 min in..... this message is so powerful 🤍

@Mandy-rl9vc

Жыл бұрын

Makes sense, since in essence non-dual awakening is the turning off of the Default Mode Network, where ‘I and other’ and ‘I in past and fute’ are generated. Autistics have been shown to have a differently working Default Mode Network, so their I-referencepoint is less present in the first place.

The entire experience is beyond the mind and it's language ,this is why nobody actually understands what you are trying to tell them in relation to a genuine state of oneness. Mathematics is also a language and therefore can never express it. I appreciate the validity of this conversation and at the same time the absurdity of it. Thanks for making this ,it was a great watch. I would just add that there has been a rapid growth in interest from the scientific community in 'self realization'. There is a tendency for them to try and validate it in scientific terms. This is a nonsense movement rooted in the egoic desire to be 'groundbreaking' , to write books, produce 'peer reviewed' papers etc. There is not one single discovery in the entire history of science that has not been disproven at a later date so it is great fun and throws up intersting debates etc but has a shelf life of approx 50 yrs. The actual science of Self realisation has been known for millenia,it has never changed and is confirmed as True by all realised beings. It is called yoga and is documented in the Vedas, Tantra agamas, and Sutras. It is a perfect science because the same result has been observed /experienced by thousands , the method has been clearly documented. The Science & Non-Duality crowd are simply trying to rebrand an ancient wisdom in modern terms without embodying the ancient wisdom. I do enjoy some of the scientific stuff but for those who are still trying to find answers or a path, the scientific approach is a waste of time. Go to the source. God speed x

I deeply appreciate these kinds of discussions, as it is so rare for anyone (scientists and nonduality speakers alike) to ever step outside of their little bubble and have such an open and provocative conversation. Kudos to Lisa Cairns and Professor Friston, and much gratitude to Iwan Brioc and the Undoing Center for sponsoring this series.

This conversation meant so much to me-that it could happen, that the respect and empathy were mutual, that their language bridged toward the other. In these times of divisive polarity the emotional tone as well as the content were deeply caring and necessary.

Was it synchronicity that youtube brought this video to my attention? Subscribed! I only recently became aware of Lisa and watched a few of her talks. Right away I got the sense that she did have a genuine awakening experience. As for Karl, I have watched one of his talks with Curt Jaimungal and was just about to watch another. His free energy theory is way beyond me. I had been asking myself why had I not seen many dialogs between people with awakening experiences and intellectuals. Looking forward to more. I do hope that future dialogs on this channel can be as congenial as this one.

I had a similar experience to Lisa that she described happened to her Bali. I kept asking myself where seeing happens - does it happen in the brain, does it happen out there. And then it was so obvious that the seeing was everywhere! The seeing and the object being seen were one thing.

@jamesthomas1244

Жыл бұрын

I have heard it said that Reality actually contains no nouns and that life/existence is more correctly described as a verb-ing; e.g.: there is not a 'me' viewing a vista, there is just SEEING happening.

It was so refreshing to see the bond develop between these two lovely people in the course of the conversation! The respect, empathy and humility with which they negotiated this bond gave me hope for the future. Wondeful program, I look forward to more!

Definitely would like to hear you ask the 4 questions to Bernardo Kastrup and Rupert Spira

What a feast! Thank you!

I'm pausing at 59 min. to say, I'm glad I saw the video about Ramana Maharshi prior to this. As much as I am truly enjoying this conversation, this demonstrates the transcendent wisdom portrayed by RM. As wonderful as the insights of this conversation are, the undeniable awareness within the wisdom of Ramana exposes the limitations of even the most profound conceptual insights that the mind can offer. Explanations are satisfying to the mind, but only momentarily, where as wisdom stills the mind. All the knowledge produced by the ever developing mind will never provide the stillness from which wisdom arises.

@hugoranogueira

7 ай бұрын

Hi, what video? can you point it here? Thank you.

@danmoord375

7 ай бұрын

@@hugoranogueira Sri Ramana Maharshi- JNANI ( KZread)

@hugoranogueira

7 ай бұрын

​​@@danmoord375Found, video from 2018. Thank you!

I believe Karl Friston and Francis Lucille would have an extraordinarily interesting conversation!

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Yes, we are hoping to include Francis in the first series....watch this space!

@rickardrenstrom6318

Жыл бұрын

@@foursimplequestions that’s wonderful! I will!

Absolutely wonderful chat. Thank you

Wonderful to see Lisa in this role, and Karl appears extremely sympathetic. Thanks ♥

Banana Fritters? I'll have what she's having! Really though, a very worthwhile and useful discussion, thank you.

Wonderful and fascinating! Inimitable speakers! Welcoming format! Cannot wait to see more of this series!

I recently found Lisa Cairns, I loved this conversation. Thanks to everyone. Loved seeing the diversity and common ground :) beautiful

What a beautiful conversation ❤ my observation is that "everything" is just happening, from this "I" point of observation, the thoughts arise without my intervention, in the same way as the functions of this, and all bodies, happen automatically. I have no need to directly control my heart beat, or breathing, it's just happening as it does based on the circumstances in this present environment, thoughts appear and are being witnessed by this "I" or "Self" but there's a belief that "I" am in control because it appears that I am in control. However, my direct experience is that "this" and everything that appears to be external or separate from this body, is just happening ❤

I just have to say: Karl’s office is top shelf.

Thank you so much for shining the light on this. I experience exactly how Lisa experiences, after an awakening in Summer 22. There was a shift of seeing, I called it a flip, my vision flipped. Instead of a person looking for presence, I was presence. A few months later after speaking to David Bingham. The identification fell away, but can be experienced if chosen. But always with the awareness of being life. I have the thought, I know nothing, I have no agenda and there is a surrendering to just what is. I’m so grateful for this interview. I hope it helps others to see that we don’t have to suffer, things still happen but there isn’t a story of suffering attached. 💕

Great conversation! ❤ check out Michael Levin - that Karl mentioned! His studies are mindblowing and will shake up Biology as well as medicine!

It is wonderful to see two people coming from totally diverse backgrounds and yet engage in a meaningful conversation. Thanks for bringing them together and sharing this. Lisa's comfort in saying "I don't know" and her hypothesis about people with learning difficulties never identifying properly with a character (28:25) stood out for me. I like Karl's comment, "In the representation of uncertainty awakening lies" (1:00:15). I need to understand Karl's intellectual awakening vs lived-introspective-interoceptive awakening (1:13:00) more. I also liked Karl's proposal of the difference between the ego-centric self and the mindful self. He says, in the former, you are planning and in the latter, you are not - he called it the degree of temporal depth (1:23:45). I wonder if, in addition to planning, openness to listen/perceive new ideas, goes with it. Would it be temporal depth and perceptual breadth? Or are these two sides of the same coin? To borrow from Karl's paper, is it self-flattening (reduction in the temporal depth of planning) and self-attenuation (lowering confidence in one's own beliefs)?

Profoundly rare exchange. Lisa's simplicity and honesty projects an undeniable authenticity about her. Difficult to find in the muddled pool of the non- duality

Had to become subscriber 58 (my birth year) This episode was profoundly moving for me. Look forward to further episodes. Thank you for doing this.💜🐈‍⬛

Thank you both for this bridging

Thank you, dear Lisa and Karl. I am interested in these subjects and tried best to understand (my mother language is german, that's why... ;-) . I had my own spiritual experiences more than 30 years ago (no drugs in any form and out of any search anywhere) that's why I like to hear about. Thank you!

Beautiful conversation. The peaceful tone of voice from bought, the information shared enhanced my Sunday.

Glad to find your channel. I enjoyed this video, and I’d recommend you consider Paul Hedderman for another.

I watched this whole conversation with a smile. So beautiful. So refreshing. So much grace & respect for one another. I’m amazed how much I enjoyed Dr Karl talk maths when I’m not a maths person myself. I’m so curious about his personal perspective as far as the questions but I understand he was there to talk science. I love the stunning curiosity with which they listened to each other and genuine interest in trying to understand each other’s perspectives. A beautiful exploration. Thank you and congratulation on a brilliant start to an amazing project!

Absolutely fascinating. I loved watching Karl listening to Lisa, he truly listens deeply and seems to really enjoy her. Yes, please do more. 🙏💞

Absolutely brilliant and fascinating!!! THANK YOU!

Please invite Bernardo Kastrup and Donald Hoffman.

Ой, Спасибо большое!) 🙏🏻

Thank you for this Lovely meeting. John De Ruiter could also be a great subject to put together with science...

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the tip, Ulla.

Great respect in this conversation. Beautiful

This was a brilliant success --- well done all of you. What a surprise it was to see Lisa and Karl coming easily to a common understanding of the non-dual awakening phenomenon as a seeing through of the fictional nature of the person. They only failed to connect when Lisa veered off into monist idealism (the view that all reality is mental). This is nondualism (metaphysics), not nonduality (direct experience), and as long as spiritual teachers confuse these they will have difficulty communicating with physicalists like Karl. In fact, non-duality can be squared just as easily with any monist metaphysics as with monist idealism, and this includes monist materialism. Anyone interested in clearing up this confusion would do well to look at the neuoscientist James Cooke's KZread videos.

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Patrick, hopefully there will be more opportunity to go deeper into these distinctions in coming dialogues. Especially with Max Velmans - www.researchgate.net/publication/351308047_Is_the_Universe_Conscious_Reflexive_Monism_and_the_Ground_of_Being

@petermartin5030

Жыл бұрын

Yes Max Velmans' dual aspect monism provides the potential common ground to reconcile objective and subjective views and come up with a shared language. This has the potential to make sense of what religion, philosophy, psychology and neuroscience have been trying to describe.

Its fascinating to watch two well spoken individuals discuss the topic and the different perspective and body language each exhibits when one of them has experiential and stabilized realization.

Intelligent beings are the universe’s way of becoming self aware.

Wonderful talk, thank you!

Wow that was really Beautiful ❤ Thank you 🙏

Absolutely beautiful lighting and camera focus, really great shot at the beginning. Loved it.

@FrozenKingdom34

Жыл бұрын

Love the outfit too and your hair looks great. Looking young friend. Thank you again for the excellent video

This was great, hope you do a lot more.

The bliss comes and goes but then you realize it never went away to begin.

Amazing talk! ❤

That must've been some banana fritter, Lisa. Lovely discussion, between a real yin/yang of guests - coming from very different angles but both listening and finding common ground. Subscribed and looking forward to hearing more.

Once your first question dissolves in thin air, the others become irrelevant.

Iwan, please listen to one or two of Anoop Kumar's interviews on KZread. He would be a great person as one half of a conversation. Another of course as I am sure you know would be Bernardo Kastrup. The real trick is in finding the pairing that each one brings out the creative in the other. The above conversation one was excellent in that respect. Thank you for making this conversation possible. It certainly lets in more of the light of consciousness.

Karl is the person in the world I would mist like to spend time with. He is the embodiment of the 'yes, and' type of being that McGilcrist describes rather than the "yes, but".

Love this. ❤️

This was a wonderful discussion. So rich and respectful. I would love to see Sally Kempton featured, especially if you could pair her up with a neuroscientist who goes by the name of ‘Harry’ 😊 ( Seriously, Sally Kempton would be a wonderful guest)

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the tip

This was a lovely interaction. This series and these questions would be perfect for Byron Katie in Ojai California.

Great Conversation - sadly at the end I would have loved to get the answer from Karl about the difference of the nature of consciousness and awareness. I got the impression he just answered towards consciouness leaving out the mystery of being aware of it

Wow. Well done.

My feeling is that maths.. or any science.. or any puzzle.. is Everything cut into pieces - and then we put them together and think WE discovered something... well, it was all there all the time.

beautiful

I’m aware of functioning in an egoless state when being creative such as dancing and painting. I’ve also noticed when I was much younger I was capable of driving extremely fast and all there was was pure awareness, I’m sure this is how racing drivers function.

Frank Yang would be also a perfect guest for this show! … just an idea

This was awesome 💖

Brilliant

"What is this?" scalability of the experience of Lisa tells us that the end experience , and purpose of evolution is the full integration of "that" into the physical reality. An immortal body. Which would be boring and terrifying if we would still be locked in our tiny ego´s. It is hard to imagine what would lie beyond that, but surely it continues expanding and evolving.

I'd recommend getting Michael Levin on here with someone who has a deep experiential understanding of the body (e.g. a qigong master)

1. "I" am God 2. This is a Divine game 3. For my entertainment 4. Sat Chit Ananda The questions I feel are the ones to be answered are very similar 1. Why does this exist? 2. What are we supposed to be doing? 3. How do we do that? The life of "your name here" is a Divine game created by God (you) for your entertainment. The goal of the game is to find conclusion of the game (Moksha, Heaven, Nirvana, Tao). So if you are the singular Absolute the game would be a mystery to solve; a labyrinth to escape from, rather than one that requires a secondary opponent. How to solve the mystery, escape the labyrinth, and therefore conclude the game is by turning attention away from thoughts and sensations and turning it inward onto the Mauna, the stillness that is Source and that which never changes 🙏

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Roy, curious that you use Labryrinth metaphor. Isn't it the idea to get to the centre of the Labyrinth rather than escape it... And that is the inevitable eventually if you keep walking. So it only appears that there is a you that is lost.

@Nonconceptuality

Жыл бұрын

@@foursimplequestions Yes the appearance of a separately existing identity IS the "mind labyrinth" from which to escape. The other analogy is that of a mystery to solve. The exit is the center, of which Self IS. So to transcend the labyrinth is to no longer project the appearance of the walls through the "I..." thought process. It's more like stopping walking to remain in/as Being. This inaction reveals Self to be the center and the labyrinth to be illusion

Her care while talking about using psychedelics for resetting the mind is soooo needed. Although I also think they should be studied in this way, it absolutely needs to be supervised. My son who suffered with depression for many years is in that hell she speaks of from using mushrooms and the like unsupervised. Please be careful and seek guidance if you feel led to try them.

@coming2oursenses

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for sharing and making this really important point.

This conversation still is about a physical universe involving the brain as the seat of Consciousness (and mathematical theories) whereas non duality could mean the perceived universe sees Consciousness as independent of the brain existing as she described as the sole source of everything we “believe” we think we see around us. When she first began describing how she lost herself where she no longer existed as a physical being with an identifying ego but rather as an independent consciousness which is part of Consciousness itself.

Very interesting. Other invitees could be Rupert Spira (UK) or for more radical approach Dr. Gregory E Tucker (US psychologist).

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the tip, Geoff. Had not come across Dr Tucker before.

@daverowley2724

Жыл бұрын

I second the Rupert Spira recommendation!

@rickardrenstrom6318

Жыл бұрын

I third the Rupert suggestion. But Francis Lucille would intrigue me even more!

@Crash-Rest-Yummy

Жыл бұрын

Other suggestions, Richard Sylvester ,Tim Cliss, Jim Newman, Andreas Muller, Tony Parsons, kenneth Madden (Rupert Spira is very confusing for me)

@bierdlll

Жыл бұрын

@@foursimplequestions Donald Hoffman and Richard Davidson please.

She should intend stillness... Great vid..

Jim Newman would be great on this. Or Tony Parsons.

Thank you for this!! 15:00 This is an issue I have with nonduality because it is not understood within the community. The depersonalization that occurs should be balanced or avoided altogether because it destroys the sense of self that feels empathy, compassion, personal connectedness with others. That inhibits the kind of intimacy that makes living more meaningful and loving connections with others deeply satisfying- even more so that just walking around blissed out or disassociated. Disassociation disorder (over disassociation to be kind) is real and needs to be recognized in the spiritual community so that a balanced "self" can be part of spiritual development instead of this over-focus on reaching a no-self state which is not intigrative and stable. In my opinion, it is not a pleasent long term state, because many emotions can't be experienced while in that state. That includes a loss of empathy. We need boundaries and a sense of separateness in most all functioning in this world. Nonduality is overrated and sometimes unproductive when these thngs are illuminated....Maybe nonduality and mindfulness is NOT such a good way of living....? I like my sense of self, even the difficult parts, and I want more self...LMAO.

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Hi Mark, thanks for your comments. I would be interested in what you feel after seeing another video in this series - a dialogue between Prof Paul Gilbert (Compassion Based Therapy) and Kelly Spencer. (non-Duality Teacher).

I wonder what Prof. Friston means when he says that "big consciousness" is an illusion. An illusion compared to what? It's like a mirage in a world of mirages saying that it is only a mirage. As compared to what?

❤️🧡💛💚💙💜

At 19:50 he misinterprets the unitive experience as depersonalization. DP is a subjective disconnect from everything, realization is a connection with and between everything, the brain networks involved differ as well.

Duality (thesis, anti-thesis) creates or synthesizes reality (non duality) -- the time independent Hegelian dialectic. Making predictions to track targets, goals & objectives is a syntropic process -- teleological. Teleological physics (syntropy) is dual to non teleological physics (entropy). "Always two there are" -- Yoda.

youre planning a great channel here I see, lisa cairns and rupert sheldrake!? mamma mia

I have noticed when a concept originates in INDIA via Hinduism or is closely associated with Hinduism (EVEN if EVIDENCE SHOWS that that concept/knowledge product/ideology is mostly STILL alive in practice in some manner in India and hardly present anywhere else), influential people teaching that material will extrapolate credit for that knowledge product to ALL RELIGIONS and traditions of the world. I have YET to see that happen in reverse whereby ANY OTHER religion or philosophy or science is reverse engineered to give it connection to India. Seems whatever product or service that land has given birth to ONLY gets stamp of legitimacy by expanding credit to Europe and the Middle East (by referencing Islam, usually, by way of Sufiism).

" nothing can exist without consciousness" hmmm , I'm not sure about that! Does the universe stop existing when I die? Was there no space dust before living things?🤔

@laisa.

Жыл бұрын

There's not just "your consciousness", it is consciousness per se. And it is divided into all of the personas of us and probably animals. An observer changes the results in quantum physics. See the double slit experiment. Plus: "Materialism is bologna" according to Bernardo Kastrup. (That's the title of his book) ✌

Nothing is still something

I fail to see how there is romance in saying: "So that the big conciousness is here to recognise its self again!" It's as far as language is concerned, totally simple and not romantic!

That which is real cannot be affected by that which is unreal That which is unreal doesn’t exist

@SarahDale111

Жыл бұрын

Therein lies the peace of God.

I wonder if her previous psychedelic drug use contributed to her ability to experience her awakening state in Bali... 😳🧘

So, the professor asked definition of non-duality and NO mention of Advaita Vedanta or Kashmir Shaivism. Would one EVER respond to a question of explaining Christianity without mentioning Jesus or the region of his birth? Shameful.

@foursimplequestions

11 ай бұрын

Check out Episode 3...coming soon.

1:29:45 consciousness is an illusion...really? what do you even mean by that? is karl friston schizophrenic or something?

@petermartin5030

Жыл бұрын

'Illusion' is a good word for creating a reaction because it implies active deception, but to me it is really that in consciousness we access a model of what we and the world are and how we interact, and it is only ever an approximate model that changes over time. What is discussed here is a dramatic shift in that model.

@ChristianSt97

Жыл бұрын

@@petermartin5030 so we should consider the model (the only thing we will ever know) as an illusion but the world (something we will only ever know indirectly) as real? I would rather say that individual consciousness is deception/illusion even if maybe we will never experience universal consciousness. Saying that consciousness is just an illusion seems just based on a materialistic paradigm and doesnt get us one inch forward in solving the hard problem.

@ChristianSt97

Жыл бұрын

@@petermartin5030 and im not doubting friston's incredible contribution to neuroscience...just this last statement

@petermartin5030

Жыл бұрын

​@@ChristianSt97 Well there does seem to be something 'out there' that we all get consistent responses from when we kick it, so I guess the material body and the material world are at least playing in the same space. We optimise that interaction using the mental model of self, world and self interacting with world, and the 'illusion' arises from treating that model as fundamental, rather than as just an imperfect tool for putting the physical body in a favourable relation with the rest of the physical world.

@ChristianSt97

Жыл бұрын

@@petermartin5030 so when the physical body will finally be perfectly aligned with the physical world will consciousness still be an illusion or a model? Or is this objective physical world permanently out of reach?

It’s interesting that only a handful of people point out the obvious in this video, that she is just another con artist in this space, perhaps unaware of it if she genuinely believes her own stories, living on the gullibility of mankind. Her story already falls apart from the fact that she was ‘looking for’ awakening or enlightenment. The spiritual ego can be very convincing, and can serve as an excellent business model (including for this platform organizing these interviews).

Take away the idea of there being a brain. What this is , is beyond words & concepts of the personal me character & its ideas & stories. Just This.

She only talks about herself. Can someone count how many times she used the personal pronoun I?

@Jacob0693

Жыл бұрын

She only has experience to draw on which takes place through senses in a body. He has a plethora of concepts and ideas he can use as a platform to dance around on. She is grounding directly back into experience, he has to take massive strives and be deeply humble just to meet her at the edge of (non-dual) experience.

@lugsneverlie

7 ай бұрын

⁠@@Jacob0693Very well put! What surprised me was that for all the concepts and ideas, Karl said at the start that he had not heard of non duality but I guess that’s just how academia works.

@Albert20yt

7 ай бұрын

Finally a comment that makes sense. It’s really difficult to watch this till the end. So many red flags about the way she is explaining her experiences. A major one being her attempts to seek awakening. Either she is just another con artists, as so many in the non-dualism space are, or she genuinely believes her own stories of being an awakened or enlightened person. Unfortunately so many other people here are so gullibly, so quick to believe whatever they hear in this interview.

Sorry but why are all these nondullism characters suddenly popping up like mushrooms, its been explored for a thousand years do we need any more Podcaster chatter to suddenly awaken us.. what's their motivation? Is it money, ratings, miniceleb status or a combination of all. Is the tail waging the dog.

@foursimplequestions

Жыл бұрын

Hi John, You're right...non-duality teachers do seem to be popping up like mushrooms right now...perhaps it's because this 'message' has found a way to propagate like never before. The more the merrier I say! What's the motivation? Well, if you see people chained in a cave looking at shadows, don't you want to tell them to turn around and look at the light? Of course, people might want to kill you for pointing it out...or ascribe cynical motives. But your guess is as good as mine.

@Albert20yt

7 ай бұрын

It’s the next shiny object that people appear to be attracted too. Maybe to have a sense of meaning in their lives, to satisfy the need of their spiritual ego or indeed to gain status and create a source of income. Probably a combination of factors. Whatever it is it is still in the world of the ‘self’ (despite all the talk of no-self ironically). Really disappointing, apparently, but then again this development is also just an expression of ‘what is’.