Lots of good comments! Here are my responses to the two most common comments: Comment: Electrical box needs to be grounded. Response: Yes, thanks, that problem has been fixed. Comment: Legionnaire's Disease / Legionella growth in "stale" water heater water. Response: After significant further research I have found so much conflicting advice on this topic from several "official" government sources. The EPA for example recommends setting your water heater to 120F (49C), while OSHA specifically states that temperatures of 120F will foster Legionella growth and recommends setting temperatures to 140F (60C). The CDC recognizes this and specifically states "Sometimes maximum temperatures allowed by your state may be too low to limit Legionella growth." My schedule (as shown in this video) and water heater temperature settings (140F) should not pose any risk for Legionella. However, if you are attempting this project you should do your own research, but based on mine a reasonable solution seems to be to make sure that your water heater hits 140F (60C) continuous for at least 1 hour per week. In my case my water will hit this sanitation range every day. Thank you to everyone for your concern and bringing this to my attention.

@sophiewilson8815

2 жыл бұрын

Where can we contact you, because we have security camera also looking for someone to help test and record video

@bryanclay9285

2 жыл бұрын

It's great that you address the Legionella issue in the comments, but "you might die if you don't do this" type info probably belongs in the video itself.

@davidunwin7868

2 жыл бұрын

The two temps for legionella are relevant. A temp between 50-59°C is bacteriostatic meaning any legionella in the water will live but can't reproduce until the water cools off. Temps from 60°C and up are bactericidal for legionella, meaning any legionella bacteria will die. Keep in mind that the water at the bottom of the water tank will be colder than the water at the top of the tank.

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidunwin7868 Seems pretty silly for the EPA and municipalities to suggest 49C as the set point on water heaters then.

@davidunwin7868

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheHookUp I've looked into it further because it's been a while since I last looked at the temp requirements for Legionella and now want to correct what I said. At 49°C, the temp is bacteriostatic. 50-59°C is a slow death rate (eg, 90% within 2 hours). Hotter is faster. 60°C is much faster with 90% die within 2 minutes. At 70°C, the legionella bacteria die instantly. So at 60°C, it's very fast. After 2 minutes 10% remain. After 4 minutes 1% remain. After 6 minutes 0.1% remain. And after 8 minutes 0.01% remain. So by 10 minutes, 0.001% legionella bacteria remain. This is called a decimal reduction or logarithmic reduction in microbiology. My HWS automatically heats the water to 60°C once a day regardless of the temperature I set it at. From a safety perspective, 50°C and up can cause fast burn injuries to human tissue, and this is why some health services may recommend a lower temp - they are trying to balance the risk of burn against the risk of legionella. The risk of burn is probably much higher than the risk of contracting legionella.

Inserting a simple ($10) digital timer into the low voltage Thermostat line worked well for me at a fraction of the cost. This works for most types of water heaters (Electric, Gas, Indirect) Always turn off the power before making any modifications!

A couple NEC things you'll want to add. The MC cable should have a clamp to prevent pull out. Since the box is metal and you're using MC on one side, the box should also be grounded. Also this one is minimal since the box is high but NEC doesn't allow for open punch outs when the box has live circuits inside it. Finally, the MC you cut open should have an anti-shorting bushing added to it. It's just a small plastic piece that protects the cables from the inside shaft pieces on the metal cladding left behind. A bag is $3 at HD

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

Most of those things are actually there but not shown. I used all the connectors that were previously on the MC cable connected to the water heater to connect the MC to the box. That includes the bushing and the clamp. I should ground the box, you're right about that.

@nappyjim

2 жыл бұрын

@injector221 do I need the anti-shorting bushing on EMT? My house originally had EMT going all the way from wall to water heater. I cut the EMT in the middle of the run and placed the box in the middle. I didnt see a bushing on the end of the emt that originally connected to the metal plate on the water heater. Wondering if I need one know on each end of the EMT that goes into the electrical box?

@injector221

2 жыл бұрын

@@nappyjim for some reason I'm not seeing the reply I posted so here it is again. Emt uses fittings to connect to the box, if your fittings have a built in bushing (usually a plastic ring on the inside of the fitting) or the manufacturer specifies bushing aren't needed (because they round the inside edges of the fitting). Then, a bushing isn't needed. However, if the inside of the fitting looks/feels sharp to the point where it could rub off the insulation of the cable. Then you'd want to add an "emt insulating bushing". They're cheap, usually sub $1 and just screw on top of the bushing. I would give you some links but I think Rob is keeping spam off the comments by removing posts with links.

@RunDeeply

2 жыл бұрын

Also, why wouldn't you spend $1.14 more to get the UL contactor vs the CE/TUV one? CE/TUV probably won't help much if you have a fire and your insurance company looks at what you did (unless you are in Europe)... I looked up the UL one (Holdwell 45GG20AG) in UL's database and it looks legit.

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

It was out of stock when I was filming and needed to get it done. I included the UL one in the description because it's totally worth the extra $1.

This sounds great when you have a purely resistive electric water heater. My old gas water heater just rust out and started leaking. We installed a new Heat Pump Water Heater and it is rated to use $130 per year of electricity per year. Compared to normal electric heaters, that is incredibly efficient, and turning it off and on wouldn't help much. Edit: The water heater in the thumbnail is actually a Heat Pump Water Heater which is partially why I watched and then left a comment.

@matty6212

2 жыл бұрын

I was about to mention the same. I looked at my daily usage, for a family of 4 in Florida and water heater in the garage. Last week I averaged about 1.45 Kwh per day. Back when I bought the heat pump and did the math - it was a no brainer. It pays itself off very quickly. I will add that I use it in heat pump only mode.

@judman13

2 жыл бұрын

@@matty6212 Yep! With the $600 rebate from the power company for switching from gas to electric, that math gets a whole lot better.

@DamienRobertsonYYC

2 жыл бұрын

A heat pump water heater could be viewed as even better value, in warm climates, as it would cause a small reduction in the AC usage... Unfortunately, in colder climates the benefits aren't as noticeable. If it is -40 outside, a regular water heater will help warm the house, and unless you are using a ground source heat pump, I'm not sure that it would have any effect to reducing your power consumption.

@bowez9

2 жыл бұрын

@@DamienRobertsonYYC but every 10 yrs your buy a new heatpump not just a tank, and throwing away a perfectly good pump because the tank failed. Also in cold climates a Heatpump water heater disables the pump and is purely resistive heating.

@thezfunk

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, came to see and say the same thing. The best thing he could do is replace his restive element hot water heater and get a new heat pump water heater. Supposedly, using natural gas to generate electricity and then use a heat pump with that electricity is more efficient than just burning the natural gas for heat. However, by me, natural gas is so cheap and electricity is so much more expensive, it made sense to keep my gas hot water heater.

You are right about checking the wires with a multimeter. When I installed my water heater timer, I thought I flipped the water heater breaker, but turns out it was one of the baseboard heaters. Luckily, I checked the wires for current before proceeding.

It is totally worth it. This is something I wanted to do 2 years ago. Now I am even motivated more to do it as soon as possible

Living on a boat in Canada over the winter I learning something quickly. Leaving the heater going all day even when not on the boat really increases the power bill(of course). Dropping the heatings(or even turning them off) it takes fooooorever(less than 10c) to reheat the boat and in turn more ON time more $$... because now you are not only heating the air temps you are also heating everything thats physical on the boat(wood, metal). The best way I found was to keep it in the middle, from a comfy 21-22c to 15c when I would leave for work. Coming back, cranking up the temp to 21-22c it was back at that temp within 30mins. So basically with the water heater. When you turn off the heater for those LONG periods you are now trying to heat up a MASSIVE amount of cold water. I would instead of totally turning off the heater 8-10 hrs at a time. Change it to run smaller time slots even just 10-15mins every hour to maintain a little heat. Your 4am warm up with in turn will run less .

@JohnMGibby

2 жыл бұрын

IMO this is where an AI could help figure out a schedule that produces optimal savings. I doubt Robert would see a huge difference being in FL, but more northern locales probably would.

@Timformers

2 жыл бұрын

No, since the amount of heat wasted to the enviroment increases with the temperature. Therefore the lower your Water-Temperature gets the more beneficial it will be. I also testet the difference on my small kitchen water heater (5 liters). I save about 3 times the energy by turning it of for 18 hours (Bed time + work) compared to turning it of for 9 hours (just Bed time). The longer the period, the better it is

@syndaquil4838

2 жыл бұрын

If you can do more of a schedule, you could turn it off when you're gone and then set it to 15c maybe 2 hours before you get home, like Rob is doing for his family's shower times. Then turn it up to your preferred temp when you get home and it'll be ready in 30 mins. Like TK said, the lower your temp is, the less heat you're losing due to the temperature delta being smaller.

@wisdomcb

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnMGibby I agree, in Home Assistant one would need to add a temp probe, then test the energy usage to return the water to the desired temp for usage. Then tie downtime optimal temp to the shelly relay.

@gabiold

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnMGibby No need for AI. The least energy is consumed when you let it cool down. It is a common misconception that leaving somewhat heated is more efficient than heating up from a lower temp. It is not - you constantly wasting energy when you keep something heated. The dissipation is proportional to the temperature difference, so if you let it cool down is the most efficient. Yeah, it takes long time to heat back up, but that can be solved with automation, start heating enough time before you arrive.

Great video! Proper verification of voltage: 1) confirm the voltage meter works 2) shut off power 3) test for no voltage 4) test the voltage meter at another source to verify this works. This takes into account if the voltage meter is working still. These are the steps before we enter any electrical switchgear.

About a year ago I started purchasing some of the things I'd need to do a project like this... But then yeah to replace my water heater. We went with a heat exchanger water heater for the new one, which saves a bunch of energy, but it also has a very fancy touchscreen interface and WiFi connectivity. So I was able to schedule different temperatures and on/off timed completely in-unit. It's pretty sweet, and these new heat exchanger water heaters save so much energy that they pay for themselves in a few years of use.

You understood the assignment. Very in depth and incredible results

Excellent vid. I had this done a couple years ago to smart a 240V pool pump using a contactor and a Kasa smart switch. Well worth the money.

I use a small 35 L water heater with a standard electric plug so it was easy to make smart. Most things that draw current in standby I automatically turn off after 10 seconds in standby and activate with my wall mounted light buttons. I turn on my fan automatically when my fire place is used. Everything is automated in my house 😃 Saving money is a bonus.

I have been using a contactor combined with a Sonoff basic flashed with Esphome and integrated with Home Assistant to manage and control my water heater for the past two years. :)

Very thorough Rob! I still need to try out some Shelley devices.

Two things I would like to point out. This is a great video and your step by step install is pretty much spot on and easy to follow. I'm an electrician by trade and now work for an engineering firm so this is just me being me. #1 the metal box needs to be grounded. It's not clear to me that you connected the ground wire to the metal box. Remember the metal flex only covers the NM cable inside and can't be considered as a ground. #2 the 4watts that the shelly device and coil pulls doesn't have to be added to the final calculation as you wired them to the water heater circuit. The sense device shows you the entire circuit as one load. I also use the sense device and it has saved me a ton. Not sure if you have a pool but if you do the variable speed pump is also a great saver of electricity. It accounts for over 18% of my usage when if was a normal pump motor. I just changed it out and waiting for the sense device to find it again. Can't wait to see what it accounts for now that its a variable speed motor.

@ericnewton5720

Жыл бұрын

I dont think you’ll find a positive ROI on that variable speed pool pump. Also, you need to pump X gallons per hour to filter it, and reducing speed of the pump is less than X… For all but the most variable applications, like municipal water supply, the cost of variable speed pumps in residential settings is typically more than any savings you see. Plus variable speed pumps tend to be a lot more complex thus increasing cost, and a lot less forgiving cresting maintenance problems.

@DesignDawg

9 ай бұрын

@@ericnewton5720 My variable speed pump, which I installed with both a flow meter and an ammeter to make sure i had the data to set up the best schedule for it, saved me a measurable (and measured) ~$60/mo instantly and thus paid for itself in just under 2 years, running 24 hours/day. Now, had I paid full retail for the pump and had it installed instead of installing it myself, that ROI would have taken a bit longer. But the savings/value prop of VSPs really isn't an unsettled debate.

Wanted to thank you Rob, as based on this concept I built something very similar and now power my hot water via solar and 9 days out of 10 no longer pay for the power most of the time. Furthermore I added a Ecowitt thermometer (external) which via homeassistant turns on the switch/relay to heat the water during off peak (at night) on the days that it does not heat via solar power during the day. The same switch/relay turns on/off based on solar production during the day until the thermo in the tank turns off as the water is fully heated. I knew all this was possible, yet your video gave me the confidence to make it all happen!

@TheHookUp

7 ай бұрын

Awesome!

Your videos are great Rob! Thanks!

I'm using a contactor to automate my pool in home assistant. Hadn't thought of using it for the water heater. Thanks for the tip!

For those with second homes, cabins, whatever this would be especially useful. I'm sure the project is fun but if a consumer could buy a smart circuit breaker (that is good quality) it may have a higher adoption rate.

@HanTheProphet

2 жыл бұрын

Damn that would be awesome! Hopefully a matter of time but since it's highly regulated and different in different regions I'm not gonna hold my breath.

@alphawarriorthegrandmaster

2 жыл бұрын

@@HanTheProphet i see a lot of smart circuit breakers on aliexpress from tuya, i know tuya is not the best option, but he it works and you can always try to install the alternative tuya iot.

@JxH

2 жыл бұрын

Just turn off the water heater's circuit breaker when closing up a cottage. No need for advanced automation. Turn it back in person, after ensuring water is present in tank. Remote power up is unwise.

@ryanrostek2044

2 күн бұрын

Sinope calypso

Hi Rob. I installed a 30 amp relay on my geyser aka water heater in February and soon after that, got a Shelly EM connected to my main power line with the second CT clamp onto the water heater line. HA turns my water heater on at 6pm and turns it off at 9pm every day. I am also averaging about 6kwh per day. I am very amazed at the heat retention of these water heaters. I was able to take a hot shower at 1pm the next day - 16 hours after turn off - and the water was still very warm, so clearly my water heater isn't working as hard as I had thought to keep the water hot, so I have now turned off the automation so that I can compare. Unfortunately, we have had quite a few rolling backouts, so my data isn't complete, but I hope to gather better data over the next week or two (hopefully no rolling backouts to interrupt this test).

Just did this project at what will be a rental and then learned of the legionella issue the next day. I think the ideal solution is the hight temp thermostat setting with the use of thermostatic mixing valves at point of use to safeguard against burns in an automatic manner. UV could also be used as a sanitizer but that's be more electricity and bulb replacements with the need of negating buildup on the bulb.

I have several (10+) automations for our HW heater in Homeassistant. I have halved our usage since I started. We have a Solar tank pre-feeding the main tank which is electrically heated. The automations have grown and grown and now take into account season, local climate, household members location, zone detection for people doing sports, guest and holiday modes and more. I now need to port it all into a Node-red flow for my sanity.

@TheUnofficialMaker

Жыл бұрын

I wish you would do a video on the preheater setup. Would love to do that, live out in West TX where it gets plenty warm!

Great video once again, thanks. You're so lucky having such a low electricity price. Mine is more than double that in my country. So makes this sort of project even more beneficial. A few comments: 1. Consider using an approved type plastic box instead of the metal one. 2. Leave the original wiring as is, so that if you ever want to remove the contactor box (say you move house) you can reconnect the wires to the water heater and everything is back as it was. 3. Consider adding an appropriately rated "by-pass" switch on the box. That way if anything goes wrong with the contactor or controller you can switch the supply straight to the water heater and save a lot of user complaints. 4. Some electricity supply companies offer a lower "night rate" tarrif. If this is available, and your water heater has enough capacity, then you can save even more by only heating your water at night. You need to have a hgh enough capacity to ensure your water does not run cold during the day. I do this and it saves me a lot of money.

@n.g.1577

3 ай бұрын

"3. Consider adding an appropriately rated "by-pass" switch on the box" Do you have that a particular one that you can recommend? Thanks.

I'd love to see a video on the impact that insulation has on energy savings. If you put some heavy duty insulation with a high R value, that should reduce the time that the element actually needs to be on doing the heating.

@JxH

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. Yo-yo-ing a temperature up and down (water heater, individual rooms, entire house) is an inherent sign of inadequte insulation, air leakage, inefficiency. It's absolutely nothing to be proud of.

Nice video Rob, I'd suggest 3 improvements. 1. ground the metal box to make is safe should a hot wire make contact with it in the box and label the box to indicate that it has mains electricity inside 2. have a power-on indication light on the outside of the box 3. have a manual switch on the box door in case of failure of the Shelly/homeAssistant/automation

@KevinBritain

2 жыл бұрын

I’d love to know how to add the second two..

@MAMDAVEM

2 жыл бұрын

@@KevinBritain for power indication Google neon power indicator lamp. As for manual switching use the switch functionality of the Shelly device , low voltage side of the relay.

@kanedafx1

Жыл бұрын

@@MAMDAVEM Sw and L?

@Steve-bm2zm

Жыл бұрын

Since you live in Florida once your current water heater goes out you absolutely need to get a heat pump water heater. A Rheem unit has all those timers built in.

Sweet! Going to try this project.

Thank you for the video. Implemented!!!

Rob, thanks for the informative video and participating in the challenge.

This video was super clear and I really appreciate it. I automated my water heater this way over the weekend. I couldn't have done it without you. One thing that didn't show up in the video is what this sounds like. I bought a "Holdwell 45GG20AG 2 Pole 40 Amp 240V Coil Definite Purpose Air Conditioner Contactor" for my project and I discovered that it makes quite a loud CLACK when it engages or disengages. My hot water heater is in the basement and it's quite audible on the ground floor. I'm not sure if all contactors make such a loud sound or whether mine is unusual (or even possibly not right). In my case, my guest bedroom is down in the basement and I'm worried about the loud pop at 5:00am waking my guests. (I might have to just leave the hot water heater on when I have guests staying in that bedroom). I have no idea if this is common, and whether there's a quieter alternative. Depending on where in the house your hot water heater is (especially if you're in an apartment or condo) this might matter. Anyways, many thanks for doing this! I wouldn't have had the confidence to tackle this job without your video.

@TheHookUp

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, contactor "clack" is pretty much unavoidable. For me I have a "guest mode" that keeps the heater on all day anyways, not for "clack" reasons, but because guests may want to shower at random times during the day.

What an awesome video. Thank You!

Here in the UK it is normal to have the water heating integrated with the central heating so by replacing the traditional boiler controls with a Sonoff 4Chan I could manage both the CH and the HW using Node Red - one effect of that was that I found I could eliminate not only most of the scheduled water heating periods but also the HW temperature depending on whether it is a shower or bath that would be required. At the moment on weekdays I have on average 1hr HW heating to cater for pre work shower and at all other times by asking Alexa the water temperature and then if necessary ask for a shower/bath to be provided she will then typically respond within 15-20 minutes to say the water is now ready. The only other factor is an occasional heating of the water to 65C to control any danger of bacteria build up. Power usage has dropped greatly especially as we are currently paying around 30-35c per KWh.

This. So good, so clear, and so safe. Thanks Rob and I can't believe how much you saved here!!

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the invite Brian!

Great project! An air-source heat pump water heater will use a lot less energy than a standard electric resistance water heater, will also replace energy use of a basement dehumidifier if you use one, and some states or utilities have rebates for them. Some newer ones have wifi that could be integrated with home automation controls. I control my 2010-era GE HPWH with a tasmota single channel relay board and a resistor in series with the tank temperature sensor (thermistor). As I have solar & batteries with the house mostly off the grid, my control is different than you explained. The added resistance (relay open) tells the water heater that the water is cooler than it really is, so it will run then (during the day, when my controls see there is extra solar available to use). This heats the water to a higher temperature (up to 160F), and stores thermal energy like a battery. A thermostatic tempering valve limits the output water temperature to the house to about 120F. When the relay is closed (normally closed contact), the heater runs at it's normal temperature setpoint of 116F, which is typically already met, so it doesn't use any power from the house batteries at night.

Thanks Rob.

This was fantastic and so easy to understand!! I just happened across this and so happy I did !!! Now I'm subscribed and will check the other videos. Thanks so much !!

I already use a digital timer on my water heater and a mechanical timer on my irrigation system I think the Shelly relay will be a nice piece to modify both of these so that they can be run through automations thanks for the help with a Videos and the great information have a wonderful podcast

thanks for info. I did similar accept getting around the shelly. I used a 120v contactor. I had existing plugin wifi auttomation adapter (15$ for 2) that supports google home. great part is its simple just a plug ub to a power strip. If it fails simply remove automation adapter and plug into outlet. The 120v will fire the 40a contactor (all in box and shielded), and its just a plain old WH. Works great and can schedule. I may add raspberrry pi to home just to control it to remove internet requirement, but also works from phone app. cheers

Awesome video!!!

Hi, I automated the heater about 2 years ago. The main reason is that Hydro Quebec has high rates in peak hours at about $.4 per kW and $0.04 during off peak. My calculation was to save about $100-200 per year. But eventually I removed it. In my family of four people (kids 12 & 14 y.o.) we had a collisions, when the washer and dishwasher used hotwater so the person may not have enough hot water to get a shower. I think, In general in North America the luxury of having a hot water at any moment reliably is overcome the benefits of savings $100-200 per year.

@magfal

10 ай бұрын

This is why I've chosen to go for a 300L smart water heater rather than the typical 200L that is recommended for my size of home and family. The extra 100L will act as a buffer/battery to allow for the deferred consumption without sacrificing comfort.

I did a similar project, but I used a RIB (Relay In a Box). I save extra $ by keeping my peak hourly usage down during the peak hours (M to F, 4 to 7). The hot water heater can distroy your peak hour usage since it is using something like 4 kWh while it's on. The electric utility company uses your highest single-hour peak during the peak hours during the month. So if you have even just one day where a single hour goes to 7 kWh when your norm is 4 kWh during the peak hours, this will cost you an additional 3 kWh peak demand charge @ about $20-$25 per kWh (with taxes and other charges), you would save at least $50 per month.

Be careful on the temperature of the hot water. You need to be sure it's hot enough to kill or prevent bacteria growth. Might want to use a temperature relay on the tank to monitor it's temperature. Otherwise, you might get your family sick. BTW : I live in Quebec and just like the US, our heater is 24/7. I have a Giant Cascade water heater, it have 3 heater instead of 1 or 2. The 3rd is a lower wattage and will keep water hot when you only use a little or to keep temperature steady when not in use, instead of turning the large heater on/off and overheating. It's better for everyone like that. You should also consider "isolating" your water heater better. Your garage might get cold. I am sure long rung it's better.

@kabouterplop19

2 жыл бұрын

In the EU we can store water at 55 °C but have to heat it to 65 °C for 20 minutes weekly. Since the schedule is set up to run basically the whole weekend he's probably fine. But it's a good point you make!

In the north east we don’t see a lot of electric water heaters most tend to be natural gas or propane. I switched to a tankless water heater some years back and love it as there’s just 2 of us and we don’t use much hot water so only heating what we need, when we need it is great. The automation idea is nice as long as you account for the re-heat time on the front end, and don’t have much need throughout the day, but there are much higher efficiency water heaters that could be a better saving. There are also contractors and solid state relays which don’t have to use line voltage; I’m an electrician and have gotten into automating some years back and tend to run everything off 12 controllers and solid state relays which can keep up with decent amp loads and have the added benefit of bringing down control voltages to low voltage levels which enables more control options. I will agree with another electric and hope you added an insulation bushing to your BX/MC cable before putting it through you elbow and that you need to ground the box itself; NEC also doesn’t allow for extra openings in boxes, and they make plugs that you can just pop in to close the knock out you popped out. You also should probably have chosen a box with a screw on cover as kids can open things up and the box you used looked to simply have a hindered door, though I may be wrong. Automation has come a long way with relay panels,or load centers actually being a practice solution for controlling multiple circuits without needing individual stop gap fixes or solutions in line; you see this more in the commercial and industrial sectors then in residential but they’re trickling in. Sadly the residential home integration ecosystem still tends to be home built options more than easy plug in fixes, at least regarding hardwired appliances.

I used to do this. But I don't have a strict or remotely predictive schedule. So it just ended up bothering me and being on 24/7 again. I bought a solar water heater instead. It's great.

Flexing with the ti-83!! 👌

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

#scienceteacherlife

The main reason for the mid-week daily energy saving is the hot water cools over time. When power is continuously applied the water heater ends up in a cycle of element on until water hot, water temp slowly drops, element turns on until water hot, water temp slowly drops, element turns on … This will happen even if no water is drawn from the tank. By using a timer to only heat water just before it’s needed, those regular but wasteful ‘back up to temp just in case’ boosts don’t happen.

I had an electric hybrid water heater installed. It heats water by heat pump. It reduces energy consumption to heat water by 3/4s.

Great video, looks like a cool project. I already have a manual timer on mine called the little gray box. I Ended up using that to manually control the on off schedule. But I like your ideas better

Good information. I turn my hot water heater off just Before my shower. Plenty of hot water for a shower and there is no advantage in reheating the water just before turning it off for the day.

Just ordered the parts to do this!

I’ve already done this in the U.K. using a Sonoff basic (LAN Mode simple switch) from AliExpress. Suspect this is cheaper in the U.K. Added advantage that you can upgrade to a Sonoff TH10 and include a temperature sensor. I have mine tunnelled into foam around the hot water tank. Upper limit is 80°C though so not at the top of the tank. Current TH10 includes graphing function (of temperature/humidity) and a LAN mode so I think I will upgrade to this.

great project, I was looking for a way to automate my well pump (runs on 240v), thanks for sharing

you have a ton of interesting projects but for an earth day project this is pretty amazing. while not a tremendous savings over short periods of time, it it clearly a large savings over a long time. and also... who would have thought to automate their water heater!? i will definitely be 'stealing' this one in the near future. awesome job yet again!

Good video! Probably more of a money saver going tankless in warmer states. Here in MN that really isnt an option. The btu needed to raise the ground water temp is absolutely ridiculous.

Where I live (Israel) it is common to have a solar heating system on the roof, so no need to heat the water during the sunny days of the year. To fully automate this, I used Sonoff TH16 + a temperature sensor that is attached to the outlet hot water pipe (from the outside). Then I could fully optimize the heating automation by adding the reading from that sensor, and activating heating only when temperature is below a certain threshold (for example: 40 degrees C.). Another condition to add to the automation is a toggle helper that indicates if you're on vacation, so no need to heat the water while the house is empty.

@garagekeys

2 жыл бұрын

I can heat my water by solar, electric or oil

@PainkillerNZ

2 жыл бұрын

I too have done this but the TH16 relays keep failing. I also have a solar system on roof and lifts the temp even in winter on sunny day 10 degrees C. I have a 3kw element on 240 volts. Just ordered the new TH Elite with a 20 amp rating. Hope this survives. Would love to see your automation if you use node red to compare.

@oferbar

2 жыл бұрын

@@PainkillerNZ Regarding the TH16, it is a problem to connect it directly to the heater because of the load. What I did was to put a contactor device between the sonoff and the heater input. This will reduce the load on the sonoff relays and it will not melt. About automation, I don't use nodered. Instead I recorded the sensor reading for a while with Grafana and InfluxDb. There are good videos on KZread for that. This will give an estimate what are the thresholds values during the time that you want to turn on the heater. For me it is 40 degrees C but that can change in other systems. Another thing I did was to create 2 automations. The first one start on 6pm and checks if the temperature is below 40 degrees. If so, I turn on the heater for half an hour. The second automation start at 6:35 pm and checks if the temperature is below 45 degrees, in case someone took a shower during that time. You can play with the values and methods until you find what's working for you. I also added an automation with a helper to turn on the heater at any given time for 30 minutes. Then I can turn it on, for example with: hey Google, I need a shower.

@PainkillerNZ

2 жыл бұрын

@@oferbar Love the helper idea. Im going to implement that.

I done the same thing but with a custom made PID controller on a esp32 with a 40 pwm controller and it's run perfectly

There’s also natural gas tankless water heaters that only come on when hot water is needed. They work great. If your building a new house or replacing a water heater and have options for natural gas or a large propane tank they are a great choice. Especially if gas/propane is cheaper than electricity.

@jmiller2

2 жыл бұрын

This is standard in at least the Netherlands, maybe even all of Europe, basically when the floor heater wants to heat up it sends a signal which turns the boiler on, or when there is water flow from any faucet or shower it will turn itself on too

We have a heat pump water heater (the one in your thumbnail actually). It uses less than half that power on a heavy usage day. And that's in the spring. It uses even less in the summer when there's more free heat available. It also automates all of this for you. You pay more up front, but it pays off pretty quickly.

Great idea. I installed a Rheem heat pump HWT last year. It uses very little power. Around 1.5-2 Kwhrs/day depending on use. I use the heat pump only mode. I was surprised that it still uses 40 watts of power in vacation mode. This is just to power the display and the Wi-Fi. Having this on/off control feature may not be worth it in my case as that is not much power to save. Although the Shelly 1PM is drawing very little power in this application (4W), it is still being supplied by a 30A 240VAC circuit breaker. I would feel better with having either an inline 250v rated 1A fuse & holder or a 3A circuit breaker on either the L1 or N feed line from the contactor. This would be incase the Shelly fails internally. I would think the UL rating for the Shelly device would be limited to no more than a 15A circuit breaker supply. It is interesting that this is not mentioned anywhere in their wiring documentation.

Ghosh, I wish I saw this a few weeks ago, the US water system is/was a complete mystery to me and wanted it to be automated. Now I can.

Thanks!

Here in the UK we are blessed with a company called Myenergi. They make a product called Eddi which controls the water heater in my 300L tank. From March to end October I don't pay for any hot water as the Eddi heats it every day from my excess solar. Then there is the Myenergi Zappi which does the same thing to charge my EV from excess solar! Then in the winter here November to mid March we have to rely on the grid and cheap rate tariffs (Not so cheap these days) to charge the solar batteries and charge the car. UK solar production swings from 1.5kWh per day on bad winter days up to 40kWh in the height of summer months. I have a 9kW solar system on the roof.

You got a new subscriber I did the same project ordering everything from your list. My bill in Hawaii 400$ month, I hope I see it dropping.

Great idea to work with the existing water heater. When it’s time to replace it I would consider purchasing an instant hot water system which means it only heats up the water when you are using it and it only heats up a small body of water as it goes through the heat exchanger.

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

When it comes time to replace I'll likely opt for a heat pump style hybrid heater. I don't think I have enough spare capacity in my electrical panel to run the proper sized tankless heater in for my house.

I installed an Aquanta smart water heater addon about a year ago when I put in a new water heater. It's hard to tell if I saved anything over time as my family's habits aren't that predictable. It is nice to have vacation mode at least though. The Aquanta is nice for those who don't want to do so much tinkering. It isn't controllable via api yet though.

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, cloud only solution is a no-go for me.

Hi Rob, Your contactor solution would also work for those on a well pump. I asked a plumber about installing the Moen Flo device and he said that's great for the water traveling out of the water tank into the house, but what if a leak occurs in your tank or before... Your p-stat will detect low pressure and your well pump will be running bringing in water. I can install a contactor as you show to the supply power for the well pump pressure-stat!

This is a great idea, the one elephant in the room though is the vast majority of people probably are not skilled enough to do this and this is a relatively low skill job, so an electrician cost will definitely add to the cost. That said if I used electricity to heat water, here in California where you multiple that electricity cost by about 3, this would be a good deal of savings, although a hybrid water heater probably could do something similar if not better... that said I have natural gas for my water heater and recently switched to a tankless water heater, and I am handy enough to do the work so the cost between that and a traditional water heater wasn't terribly much.

Wondering if the hot and cold cycles you have an increased risk of things like legionella growing in the water heater?

@rcx760

2 жыл бұрын

It´s not really a problem, The watertank is isolated so you pump up water heat to 65C and let it cool down to 55 C, This might take 2h in a good isolated tank. and it takes like 10-15min to heat back up again to 65C. everything above 55 counts as legionella safe

@kevd3110

2 жыл бұрын

It is highly recommended to ensure your hot water reaches 60°C /140°F. I thought it only needed to do this every 24 hours... Apparently once a week is enough

@rcx760

2 жыл бұрын

@@kevd3110 yes, once a week is good enough, but most of the waterheaters in Sweden will do the cycle i typed. Because its more energy efficient

It will be great to see what your energy savings is with the tank needing to pull the water up to temp after having been off for the preceding hours. A insulation blanket could help hold temps up between on times.

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

That's what's shown in the video. Energy savings of about 2.2kWh on weekdays.

7 day purpose built water heater timers can be purchased. No need to fiddle around making one unless you just want to. Timers like the Intermatic EH40 are right around $100

I hooked up a yolink smart plug to the recirc pump. It turns on the hot water recirc pump. For five minutes when i hit the yolink fob button. Saves running the water until hot at the faucet. Helps save money and we have irregular schedules. Saves running recirc pump on hot water for unnecessary time.

IMPORTANT The biggest gain is not the automation itself, it is automation in combination with kWh price per hour. Then you warm your water during cheap hours and prevent it from heating in the expensive hours, also enough size of the vessel is needed. Having the water heater in the house is also good cause every lost degree of temperature then goes out in the house and is not lost. In Sweden we some hours have as low as sub $0,01 per kWh but also now after Russias war on Ukraine we have up to as much as $1 in rare cases.

I sloved the problem another way. I put in thankless hot water heater. Which does same thing, but no need for script needed, or rewire.

Thank you so much for this. I live in a place where the khw for power is extremely high. I've always wanted to automate my water heater but delayed it because I never found a reliable/safe solution to do so. Thanks again

@astranger448

2 жыл бұрын

Check how well insulated your boiler is first, it's where you can easiest make the difference. There should be a label on your heater that tells you in some form or other how much energy is needed. It could be in kWh per 24h, or per year or some other way, label requirements being an evolving thing but you should get a figure that tells you how much energy a boiler uses while standing around hot but not doing anything all day. Then check on the internet a modern really good boiler to see how yours perform compared to a good one. Next determine how much hot water you use. If you are single and take a 5 minute shower you are best of with the traditional water heater with the best insulation you can afford since the heat loss through the insulation becomes the most important part of the bill. If you have a big family that's under the shower for hours a day you better go for a heat pump boiler because the energy use when showering becomes the most important factor.

Can’t wait for an episode for automating swim pool equipments which is another big energy monster

Great video Rob, WOW $0.12 per KwH, we pay $0.22. and it's going up this year

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

Ours has gone up almost 100% in the last 2 years, I used to pay $0.07!

Just subscribed....looking to set up a second hot water heater that runs just when i say so to optimize the benefit of my solar panels! Thanks

Great video! I use an Emporia whole-house monitoring solution with Hall sensors on each breaker. My hot water heater (about 8-10 years old), consumes 36% of my monthly bill (516kWh in April, 481kWh in May). I don't know how you're only at 10% with 3 showers per-day, when I'm at 3x that with 1-2 showers per-day.

My heater has this functions for full heat programmable from start. But what it also have programmable, is a minimum temperature on the water. What this does is two things, firstly you will have hot water for other things like washing your hands and whatever you use it for between the showers, but also which I believe is to save electricity is to not having to warm up the water from scratch when it is shower time. This is of course more important in Sweden where the water comes in at 4 degrees centigrade in the winter. However, it would be interesting to put a thermometer sensor in the heater to be able to automate the temperature of the water between the shower periods. Maybe it is more efficient the heat the water with shorter bursts between shower periods?

I went the DIY route for my heating. There's a pi that acts as home server and router, so I wired it up to a relay in the thermostat line. It controls the heating based on the presence of my phone on the network. When my phone leaves the house, and by implication I am not home, the heating turns off. Doesn't save much though, because the climate here only gets low enough to need the heating for maybe two months a year.

I think my post got killed because it had a link in it, but rheem sells a wifi upgrade module that works with many of their Gas and Electric water heaters that lets you control the temp and when it is on. There is also a cloud integration for it already in Home Assistant. Nothing beats local control but the addon avoids touching any of the high voltage electrical.

Great and good idea. I would suggest an easy do it yourself with Sonoff PowR3. It is contained in one package, add measurement capability to monitor and supervise your water heater. Rated at 25Amps,. Internal relay state 30 amps. I would not go there for sure. I use it since 6 months trouble free. All integrated in HA and energy monitor. Care must be taken: this is only equipped with one dry contact so it is cutting only one phase out of the two 240vac phases. If you use conventional water heater it won't create any problem. About 45$ and worth it! I was using it to cut consumption during Hilo peack period payback but now implementing your great idea to reduce global energy cost thanks!

@TheHookUp

2 жыл бұрын

I've seen multiple people post burned Sonoff PowR3s on the DrZzs facebook group and reddit. All have stated that they worked for a period of time and then caught fire.

@Fox350Karting

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheHookUp thanks I did not 6 months ago. I did search for it registering to DRzz Facebook group and did not find any report of failure. I think this may be a confusion with basic r3 or pow r2. Looks pretty solid and well made to me : kzread.info/dash/bejne/qoNrmaWxXde1m9o.html Beeing able to abuse of Home Assistant capabilites, I did add a feature that will help with the life of the relay. Instead of turning off the relay while the heater is heating and using 18amps, I did an automation that check the current before turning it off. I am waiting for the water heater to stop taking current, then turn off the Sonoff relay. This will be much less destructive for the relay over time because it is not arking at all when the contacts open.

What a coincidence, I was thiking of doing this yesterday, nice video ! Did you ever consider a heat-recovery for the shower ? At 3 shower a day I think it might be worth it. They are pretty expensive and there is not much to automate, but you could easily monitor in HA and see the actual saving! Keep up the good work

Skip this, go to HD and buy a Heat Pump Water Heater (especially if you live in the south). They're about $1200 but pay for themselves in about 2-3 years in terms of electricity saved (I saw about $30/month off my electricity bill). Bonus points it helps keep the temp down in my garage in the summer. They also have a smartphone app that lets you turn down the water temp overnight or when you're on vacation when nobody needs it.

Aquanta is also something but more expensive upfront and to be honest doesn't really provide additional smart info that they claim such as tank hot water capacity. Also their scheduling app is kind of hard to program well. Another unexplained advantage of putting your water heater on a smart switch is you can program it to turn off whenever your hvac triggers on therefore greatly reducing your demand charge assuming you setup a demand based rate plan with your electric provider. In this case you can also install an EasyStart to your home HVAC to drastically reduce inrush demand when the compressor switches on. So basically staggering the 2 biggest electricity demand devices in your home so they don't occur at the same time and reducing the huge inrush current required by your heat pump or air conditioner.

Jasco makes a 240v Z-wave switch that I want to use for my 80 gallon water heater. That switch has a power meter built in and a manual on/off button on the switch - just in case HA goes down.

Very nice, It should be good to add water temperature monitoring, as to low temperatures can provoque germes inside the water

I tried out the Google doorbell, seemed to work great! ;)

A nice video and gives an idea how much you can safe. Just one remark in europe we have 220/240 volt even the shelby relais works on 220/240 volt

I've thought about this type of automation a few times, but I have a gas water heater. So I wouldn't need the high voltage relay, and instead would need a new power source for the Shelley and somehow interface with the electronic gas controls. I'm not quite ready to mess with gas appliances yet...

The wife's and my schedules dont' allow for a fixed time of day to shower. We switched over to gas for hot water and cooking. I haven't done the numbers, but it's wonderful to always have as much hot water as I want for a impromptu shower or a long relaxing one. We've had the biggest savings on non-automated upgrades like metal roof and spray foamed roof decking. Not that fun, but my attic is now an airconditioned space to put my servers and centralized IoT devices. Speaking of which I wonder if I could put my servers to sleep when not in use... Hmmm...

I always appreciate your videos, albeit, most of the ones I’m highly interested in, I get lost. What do you recommend I learn as far as coding language (and do you recommend any particular online courses) in order to be able to follow along with projects involving Shelly devices, custom written code to control stepper motors and other types of motors etc. Would really love to see a video touching on all of the topics you recommend learning in order to be able to follow along with the more intricate of electronics and automation projects. Anyway, thank you for the awesome content, keep it up!

Did you consider adding more insulation around the tank to reduce the energy loss that way? Are your hot water pipes insulated throughout your home?

Would you be willing to post a list of node-red nodes you currently use?

What's crazy is that a earth day commercial came on before this video started.

Another Great Video thank you. I noticed my water heater usually heats when there is no sun - the heater is the only remaining device that uses substantial grid power instead of my solar power and therefore adds to my electricity bill. I have solar panels that produce ample electricity during the day that could effectively provide free water heating if the heater ran when there is sun and my panels are producing lots of electricity. I have home assistant which recognises my solar inverter, how would I smartly control my water heater to use the solar electricity when there is over a certain amount of solar power available but still heat the water via the mains when there is no or little solar production ?

Great video, really helpful to see the specs for each component. For some reason the Shelly 1PM is currently unavailable on Amazon canada. Could I use the Shelly 1, with appropriate change to the wiring?

I bought a much better quality (twice the cost) water heater, 30 years ago (still working, no leaks), one with better insulation. It's sitting on an insulated pad, and has an extra blanket of insulation. Pipes have anti siphon twists. Even after a 12h power failure, water is still very hot. Turning off the power would be silly given my circumstances. Point being, better insulation is another approach. Arguably better.

Heat Pump water heater would not only save huge power, but also air condition and dehumidify your garage. wins all around, and I think they come with smart features as well. $1600, sure, but I think well worth it. We have gas powered ones up north, and I think heat pump is still cheaper to run.

What we frankly should do... like a lot of countries... is having centrally heated water... because that is sooooooo much more efficient, especially if using the heated water from powerplants and cycling it.

Thanks for the awesome video. Inspired me to take the plunge. While wiring everything up I ran into an issue. When switching the Shelly on, the contractor clicks and supplies voltage BUT the Shelly web interface freezes and after about 30 seconds the Shelly resets and the contractor disconnect then the web interface responds again with the Shelly in the off position. Have you ran into this? Do I have a defective Shelly? My hot water heater is 4500W just like your. Appreciate any assistance.