River is one of my favorite people in these spheres, I appreciate his insights. You should have him on the channel more often.

Honestly surprised, the critique of the liturgy wars were well handled. I LOVE POPE FRANCIS!!!

@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes

10 ай бұрын

Viva il papa

I have to say, this is one of the most sobering videos I’ve seen in a long time. River said some hard things for me to hear, but they made complete sense, so I definitely want to give it some more thought and hear more of him. I have a lot of sympathy for the Trads and the TLM goers. Some of them have really not been treated well, or held in suspicion for something they do love. Also I hope that the Ordinariate does NOT become a seedbed of pseudo-traditionalist bitterness. I think it provides the great sense of holiness and antiquity that TLM folks are looking for, but that has to purify a lot of the rage and resentment that *some* of them have (and I say that with empathy because I understand).

Excellent show guys!

Reforming the Eastern rites would put a bullet in any desire for EO reuniting. If any reform is to be done, each patriarchate has to do it themselves. All the Orthodox I know laugh at EC liturgies, and consider them already extremely watered down. Watered down, in that the Orthodox allowed centuries of monastic influence/domination to keep adding to the length of their services.

@riverrun7061

10 ай бұрын

And of course I understand the practical issues, but if you come into union with the church you come into union with her universal Magisterium and you need only read the Constitution on the liturgy to realize that there are very specific teachings that are binding on what liturgy is and it seems plausible that the Eastern rites would at least upon reflection after some time have to undergo revision in light of these. At least if Union is to be anything other than merely nominal and lip service. I don't accept zogbyism.

@weirdschool

10 ай бұрын

We are agreed, Zogby's idealism is not the way. If such a reform came down, I would submit to it without question, but my thoughts are with the EO. How best to foster Union with a bunch of Marcel Lefebvres with beards & klobuks? Romans know the theoretical East, but are naive about commonplace Easterners, short of the bishops they encounter at Ecumenical functions. Union is the Will of God, but our current situation hurts deeply. For context: I was Orthodox for 13 Years, 6 of which were in Minor & Major Seminary. Now I'm thankfully a Melkite seminarian.

This morning show was one of your best.

You guys are awesome. The bit on moral theology is fantastic.

Never thought I would hear you calling a spade a spade and saying that Taylor Marshall should be excommunicated publicly 😮

@Math_oma

10 ай бұрын

...and whipped by Pope Francis.

@F2222m

10 ай бұрын

@@Math_oma😂

@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes

10 ай бұрын

Awesome! Lol. I wish he’d repent; but if not, let him go.

Never thought a Militant Thomist video would throw me into a deep depression over the state of the liturgy 💀

Well, this stream was extremely cathartic

Fr. Gregory Hesse.

I like a lot of what you guys had to say in this video. A big problem I see with the rad-trad (and I don’t really like using that term because it kind-of originated as an ADL buzzword) camp is that they are unnecessarily contentious and disputatious against anything positive regarding Pope Francis causing them to be very closed-minded, and the Pope knows this, but when he takes action against it, people will go further down their anti-Francis rabbit hole. These people see anything or anybody that is anti-Francis to be a representation of a warrior for tradition and see anything pro-Francis as modernist, when those both are not the case at all. I think the reason that the church may be a bit more hard on that side rather than people like the German Bishops is that the ultra “trad” side has such a superiority complex that it will be harder to bring them to the truth than it would be to bring the left-leaning Catholics back to order.

Rivers objection to the evolution of the liturgy is funny considering his insistence on the evolution of man and animals. I certainly agree on one of the issues, but it would be interesting for him to consider just how parralel the objections are.

@riverrun7061

10 ай бұрын

I'm certainly willing to accept in broad strokes much of evolutionary theory and one may want to quibble about the exact specific account of the teleological nature of that: but even in this case I think that the development of species is intrinsic to the teleology of what a living thing is. That is to say, there is some interior potency of living things to change and develop through breeding over time. With respect of artifacts, artifacts have no intrinsic teleology whatsoever and so to speak of them organically developing is mere poetry, mere metaphor. A log does not intrinsically of its own power develop into a boat oar or a rolling pin or a 2x4 and a 2x4 doesn't intrinsically (organically) develop into a wall of a house. In the same way a text ritual does not organically develop in any particular way of itself nor does any text for that matter. If you believe that then you believe literally that novels for instance write themselves. You believe that say by the time an author has gotten to chapter 5 of his book and written it down the text itself has some sort of intrinsic teleological development to chapters 6 through 10 not dependent on the extrinsic purposes of the author. Well this is absurd. Artifacts don't have any interior purposes whatsoever with respect of their being artifacts. It is all the extrinsic purposes of the crafter.

@VACatholic

10 ай бұрын

@@riverrun7061 What potency does a tiger have to turn into a human? What is this magic that the tiger has that a book doesn't?

@riverrun7061

10 ай бұрын

​​@@VACatholichypothetically? If it works like it's supposed to work then cellular mechanisms and mutations and other such things have as an intrinsic potency of the kind of thing they are through the descendant generations over time enforced by selective pressures the possibility of transformation of breeding lines. As to the question of the natural possibility of a lion becoming a human I don't know how possible that is. It might not be possible at all. Any particular transformation of any particular breeding line depends on the various potencies inherent in the present breeding line. It would be a question of if you can get there from here. But I mean this is obvious even from non-speciation breeding cases. It's not clear to me that you can get to a Great Dane breeding out from Chihuahua stock. I'm sure through successive generations you can get a bigger dog, but I don't know what potencies are inherent in a existing population of Chihuahuas and what kind of morphology you could get starting there. By contrast texts have no such development whatsoever. Texts are just written by people. Words on a page don't breathe don't write themselves don't do anything. They are just collections of words in a book. The distinction between real substances and artifacts is larger than the question over evolution. Now look if you just want to dispute with me over evolution itself whatever. I'm fine with people who do not hold evolutionary views, but this distinction between artifact and non-artifact is a separate kind of distinction about intrinsic and extrinsic potencies.

@VACatholic

9 ай бұрын

@@riverrun7061 if you responded, it was eaten by the alphabet people.

@riverrun7061

9 ай бұрын

@@VACatholic I did. Odd.

The miserable offenders line is in the UK Ordinariate office iirc

wtf you guys talking about for like half of this lmao

Riverrun has blackpilled even more

@riverrun7061

10 ай бұрын

I'm relatively good actually but I treat managing people with the expectation of probable incompetence and failures of predictable kinds. "If you run a store somebody will steal so prepare for it." is how I think about concrete management situations. Ideas and possibilities have to relate to managerial realities.

What an awful dialogue by two heretics. Riverrun is a nihilist. Cheering on the cancelation of Masses.