He is absolutely right - WHY ARE WE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT?

@nacarreira777

4 жыл бұрын

The indoctrination and brainwashing of children is part of it.

The first time I'd ever heard the term atheist was when it was thrust upon me by a close friend. I had admitted to having some welling doubts about the actual existence of God. I was a Christian at the time. When he questioned me about my doubts I shared my somewhat, and comparatively irrational reasons. Upon doing so, my close friend informed me that I was, "a godless, Devil worshiping, atheist." With those contingencies, I could not honestly accept the label. For one, I did not, in any way, actively worship the Devil. So, I didn't label myself an atheist. All I had to do was criticize that particular religion, and many of the associated beliefs and assertions, and the label was thrust upon me. So, in some ways, I take exception with Sam's suggestions here. We do not need to call ourselves atheists, or anything else for that matter, to be mocked, shunned, or in any other way marginalized by those who dogmatically believe what they do. They will choose a label for us. With regard to what skeptics, secular humanists, atheists, and agnostics discuss, atheism seems the most applicable term. It isn't, as Sam suggests, a matter of us lying down within the chalk outline provided for us. It is about accepting the label thrust upon us, and making it stand for something real and meaningful.

Thank you Sam Harris. You've been able to verbalise exactly my gut feelings that I've been incapable of explaining

@birchwilliams2587

8 жыл бұрын

+Czeshire Cat He's just AMAZING. Eloquent. Intelligent. Calm.

This is terrific. So bright, thoughtful, and necessary for me to take seriously. Thanks, Sam. And many thanks to you, blaaaargh, for uploading it.

I remember as a child and immediately after getting kicked out of sunday school for asking too many questions, thinking to myself "man, I am going to be an atheist"- no, I had no idea that word existed, I just thought the bible and Christians were stupid as well as brutal (I was beaten at home for asking questions and embarrassing my family by not bowing to peer pressure).

This is a wonderful well put together presentation that totally so makes sense.

@tonibaloni12

7 жыл бұрын

+twombonu what the fck, do you even brain?

This is why when someone ask me if I'm an atheist, I'm like, "I'm neutral. I'm not a member of any group."

@mangolassi_.

7 жыл бұрын

Even in this case you would be member of the neutral group, you don't get out of it like this ;) In my view, this argument doesn't make sense anyway. Either you hold the opinion that there is a god. Than you are theist or deist. Or you don't hold that opinion, than you are an atheist. It doesn't mean anything else. Of course you could call yourself an agnostic but unless you actually belief in a god on a day-to-day basis and lose your faith the day after, there is no actual difference to atheism.

@mangolassi_.

7 жыл бұрын

That guy has a lot of good points though.

@abdulhk79

6 жыл бұрын

Ahmed Anssaien I was in similar shoes as you are. But I'm back to Islam. Alhamdulillah. If ur interested I can tell why and why should you be too

@iman7j887

2 жыл бұрын

Do you believe in allien bro? All the atheist believe in alliens, and say" oh we cant be alone in this universe" when they see the beauty of the space but I JUST WONDER WHY THEY DON'T REMEMBER GOD/ALLAH WHEN THEY SEE THE GREATNESS OF THE SPACE?

@sabnox9869

2 жыл бұрын

I'm an atheist, I don't think there is a god, nothing is impossible but a god is just so so unlikely. I think it'd be more likely that this is a simulation, not that I think this is a simulation, I also think a simulation is extremely unlikely too. I'm comfortable not knowing what created existence, maybe science will one day find out, maybe I'll be dead by then. I don't care anymore, just got to live my life in the most enjoyable way possible. I have a very strong sense of morality, I always put myself in other peoples shoes and think what it would be like for them.

"Skip to 4:00"? Blaaaargh, you're the best!

@shaaficiali3449

7 жыл бұрын

Xander Patten no you're the best thnx

Sam can't stand Margaret.

repent sinners the day is at hand on your knees and ask forgiveness lest you be smote and cast aside doomed to wander to perdition ,or it could just be a load of bollocks.

I was raised a Catholic, for years I told people I no longer practice it. I never thought of myself as an atheist. I still do.

To use rationality and evidence was my favorite part of the speech.

Sam Harris is my God.

@politicsequalsgarbag

10 жыл бұрын

Don't be silly. You don't need faith to know that Sam Harris exists!

If you guys enjoyed the part of the speech where he talked about consciousness and altering our process of thought so that we can silence our constantly-chattering mind and just find happiness in the present moment, watch his speech "Death and the present moment", it's fantastic, very inspirational.

I will not continue with this conversation until you watch this short (less than 5 minutes) youtube video: Eugenie Scott: Scientific Theories We cannot begin to discuss the evolutionary or cosmological theories until you have an understanding of what the scientific terms of fact, law, hypothesis and theory mean and how they differ from the general public's use of the terms.

I understand the quotes on “dangers”, but why are there quotation marks on atheism? Do you think that it doesn’t exist? That not believing in a god is some kind of myth? I am genuinely curious.

I am very pleased that he acknowledges that the word "atheism" has taken on the sense that it is not interested in contemplative discussion. This is the single most important key to giving religion its power. I found the conversation really very honest.

I find the best thing to use against a Christian is the line "I do good because I choose to, not because I have been threaten with Hell-fire." It steals the moral high ground from them and they can never get it back no matter how hard you try to give it back to them.

21:47 - "Why should we stand obediently in the space provided? Why should we stand in the space carved out by the conceptual scheme of theistic religion?" A few words that speak volumes. Thank you Sam Harris.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise. I suppose the phrasing "alone in the universe" threw me off. Sorry about that.

The world needs about 7 billion Sam Harrises. I hope his brilliant, articulate mind is around for many, many,.... many years. Never get tired of listening to his lectures/debates. Pure poetry to my ears...

"I call out to all of you who are unsure of My Existence.Trust in Me. By confiding in Me, communicating with Me and asking Me to forgive you that you will receive the answer you crave. Souls are worthy to enter Heaven because My Mercy is so great that I can save every single sinner if only they would seek the courage they need to ask Me for help. I love all of you with an abiding passion. Never reject My Love or Mercy as without them you will sink further into sin and remain lost to Me". Jesus

Tell me. Was the person who's leg grew two inches wearing shoes at the time?

The evidence we do have is that the egyptians used their own people as a workforce, but did not treat them like slaves. From BBC, "Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. The pyramid labourers were clearly not slaves." From FirstThings "work was performed by skilled laborers who had the perks of a labor union: work only ninety days a year, eat steak and lamb every day, luxury burial benefits, etc."

"....let people believe what they want to believe. You attempting to dissuade them is just as bad as them trying to "save" you." Did you even watch the video? I think he covered that pretty elegantly

Seriously, Sam Harris' ability to articulate and explain the most difficult intellectual topics is astounding. There hasn't been one talk he's given that I was able to steer my attention away from. The amount of thought invoked, encouraged, and well conveyed is simply staggering. Very impressive.

I really like how he recognizes that contemplative practices are worth exploring.

Religion has something to die for. Atheism has everything to live for. Which one sounds more dangerous again?

I think I may have phrased that poorly. I meant that exactly the other way around, the attempt is to put theism on equal footing as atheism.

I really appreciate Harris' clarifications on metaphysics and spiritualism. They are NOT the same as theism. Theism is all about irrational belief in deities, in conceptual impossibilities that cannot possibly exist. Metaphysics and spiritualism is about certain types of human experience. Such experiences are real and valuable. They have no necessary connection with theism. Many rational non-theists explore them and experience them.

The meaning of your question is what?? This comment section is for people to voice their views about the above video....which I am doing passionately. I guess I am making points that are affecting you or you would not be trying to distract from the on-going conversation. It's not working.....

Just checking .. looking for a glimpse into what kind of standards, laws, charter of rights we would have in an athiest based society based on the deductive reasoning model of an athiest. Mind if I pass?

On November 27th, 2023 … an Atheist who (to her credit) although she was raised around those who did believe in the existence of a god … had never been indoctrinated by religion, said, “If people are too stupid to see the lies … they deserve to stay there.” I informed her that being as a child I HAD bought into the lies … and that then I was too “stupefied” BY the mythical lies to be ABLE to unravel them in an instant … and that I didn’t complete that daunting task until I was 70 years of age … when I was free at last to “become” an Atheist. I informed her that because she couldn’t understand what kept me confused for so long … she could never help people to be free of religion. She then said that she would never “try” to free anyone from religion … to which I replied that because of the damage done to helpless children “by” religion … that because of my experience … I will do everything in my power to help “stupefied” others … out of religion. I am willing to admit that (unlike me) my friend was too wise to be caught up in a “spiritual” web of lies … and for that … I give her full credit … albeit even if I could … I would not change her experience for mine. Because we always “level” with each other … we are the best of friends and have been for many years ... since first we met.

how do we advocate intelect honest. please give me examples. thanks

Can you do something else other than quote mining?

can anyone explain the primary source of human suffering he is referring to around 32:30 to 33:00

He meant that any labels are problematic. Any fixed idea we have about how the world works never matches up to the reality of our moment-to-moment perception, and we suffer because of it.

I don't see anything in your comment that addresses anything in my comment.

On what basis do you posit that the bible is the "word of God"?

Julia Sweeney is full-on weird, but intriguing nonetheless. Love Harris and Dawkins. They communicate so clearly.

To be evenhanded, worldiness at times entered churchianity and there was a great deal of inappropriate oppression. Big difference between churchianity and Christianity. Mercy and love in true Christianity is the apex of the glory of God.

When have I even mentioned crime and justice? Are you commenting on a completely different thread of messages? Anyway - the words "crime" and "justice" have nothing to do with nature - they are man made concepts, and only apply to humans. And faith is belief in something without evidence - which has nothing to do with abstract concepts such as 'justice'. Seriously man - are you just randomly typing crap in?

Arguably the best line concerning ethics, science, religion and human interaction.

"decent honest people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them".... this guy has to be the most convincing thinker of this century.

Oh, and by the way, if you look at the "Reception" section, you'll see some counter-arguments against this, e.g. quantum mechanics.

I didn't hear one "danger" of Atheism in this speech. I like Sam Harris but I didn't get anything from this. Basically he says that we shouldn't call ourselves atheists, secularists, secular humanists, freethinkers, rationalists, and anti-theists. I say, why not? They are simply labels. And these "labels" differentiate us from the norm. I don't see the big deal with using any of these labels. He also said that Atheism wasn't a "thing". OK, fair enough. But "secular humanism" is - it's a worldview. I also found it funny that he said don't use the label "atheists" and then called him and others "Atheists" throughout his speech.

@chebob2009

9 жыл бұрын

A good reason not to use the label atheist is that because it's not actually a belief system, it is a very poor label to describe the character of a group of people. As we've seen with the recent furore over Harris and Dawkins' supposed sexism, "atheists" have a variety of beliefs that aren't actually captured by 1 useless label. So to pretend that it's 1 community is useless, it isn't. I would argue it's not even the most important issue. I'd take a christian who believes in freedom of speech over an atheist who doesn't, any day!

I always say that meditation and other introspective methods don't need any kind of religious background and are perfectly compatible with the most logical and rigorous way of thinking. We need more of that in our lives in fact I believe its essential that we do something about it soon, and as Sam Harris said denying its importance makes us less believable and more vulnerable

This man is one of the most cognizant speakers and intellectuals of our time. Here are the rough sketches of a roadmap toward a greater humanity.

I love that he casually says "bullshit" right in the middle of this extremely high-minded and sound intellectual lecture.

Eternity has worn a human face, Contracted to a little human span, Lo, the Immortal has become a man, A self-imprisoned thing in time and space. There is no freewill and the only thing that makes you mortal is identification with the body and its mental formations. The "I" thought is the assmuption that makes men suffer. You are but consciuosness attaching itself to ideas. Who are you if no thought arises? You are life itself, immortal and infinitly beautiful, no reason can touch it.

I was hoping he would talk about lack of community in atheism. I'm still an atheist for now, a bit more of an open minded, searching atheist than I was in my teens, but still an atheist. Though with some spiritual beliefs. - But I find where I've come to in life to be pretty unfulfilling. I've found myself going to a church every so often because of the community there. The togetherness, and the family. They seem happy. While I find many (not all) of my non-religious friends seem miserable. Hanging onto life with antidepressants. - Gods may not exist. But I find myself questioning how healthy and happy life can be without a church community. Or something similar like a gurdwara.

This was uploaded in 2007, was Mitt Romney important back then?

I completely agree. The problem is, it allows a person to rationalize evil as good. Actually it is the "command morality" view that causes good men to commit evil in the name of religion. Command morality is, of coarse totally dependent on their being an all knowing, all authoritative commander.

I have nothing but respect for Sam Harris. To me his "drug past" means he has broader knowledge about the nature of mind and consciousness and the different states available to people. Scientists in the 1800s often tested their new pharmaceuticals on themselves and there is something to be said for personal experience over theory and speculation. I'm glad Sam survived his youthful experiments intact and is now able to share his honesty, perceptiveness and articulation with us.

"We are faced with the task of convincing a myth-infatuated world that love and curiosity are sufficient."

I should have made my comment more clear. The first part was directed at your comment that terrorists aren't necessarily educated. The second part was directed more to TheGodlessGuitarist's comment about elitism. I didn't mean to imply I think getting an education or acknowledging that education is important is elitist. They were supposed to be two separate points but I didn't make that clear.

Why do you use single quotes for the word "arguments"? What are you quoting?

Yes, but as they say, "love the sinner; hate the sin." Try to convince them with politeness, not with hatred.

"Hubble found that the universe was not static, but rather was expanding!" Thousands of years before Hubble, our holy writings mentioned the following: "(G-d) Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain(Psalms 104:3). "And forgettest the L-rd, thy maker, that has stretched forth the heavens(Isaiah 51:13). The Hebrew word for "stretch" ("noteh") also means "to bend". This also corresponds with the "curved universe" theory.

One of my family asked me if I believed in the devil since I was an atheist. lol. thankfully it was a respectful dialogue between us. Family thicker than blood kind of thing. My style has evolved into a respect for my family and their style of religion, they don't go to war with it.

Joe A As a longtime atheist I also abhor the "movement" attitude many atheist "leaders" are now advocating. They proselytize like evangelicals, treat those they disagree with as evil (not mistaken) and in general develop a very thin skin. The good old days, when the atheist Robert Ingersoll was so respected that he was chosen to nominate Blaine at the GOP convention are long gone. Purposely enraging Christians is incredibly counterproductive. .

I did choose my words carefully there... "we should not let ourselves be terrorized by [burning flags]"... I didnt say that there's no potential for feeling offended! actually: they count on it! - they feel sacredly right, and that selfrighteous convinces them to do things that they hope (!) will offend us just as they are offended, not even on equal footing ("let you feel what we feel"), but out of pure hubris: "we are right, you are not: feel hurt now, while we are carrying out gods will!"

Sam Harris, what a great speaker. He speaks the truth whether you like it or not.

Damn. What can I or any of us even say to that? Harris is a unique individual of seemingly self contradiction: a philosophical non-theist. He's quiet and deliberate in his delivery, and he has both the intellect and the vocabulary to construct his views in ways that are near bullet-proof. I've listened to Sam in numerous videos before, but this is the first time I've truly appreciated his unique take on the subject of religion.

I think what he meant is that society is trying to appart us. When they label everyone as "Atheists" you create a prejudice. Like he said, people who are against racism doesn't call themselves "antiracists", so we don't actually need to call us atheists. I agree that as society likes labels, it's good to indentify ourselves as atheists so that we can create a "sense of identity". But maybe that is a trap and is used against us because atheism isn't an ideology, is just a "lack of faith"

More on topic, this is an extremely good speech. This is EXACTLY the sort of chastisement that "atheists" need, for their own well being and dignity. As an atheist myself, I have studied Theravada/Zen Buddhism and Classical Stoicism and have found immensely useful, accurate, and powerful teachings about ourselves within them. Buddhism in particular, if one discards useless esotericisms such as karma, reincarnation, etc, is actually very insightful and useful. Most atheists would ignore this.

It's the unknown that drives some people to not accept nonsensical answers like "god did it" that gets us nowhere closer to finding the real explanations of how the universe works. Regardless if the answers are actually found or not, there is knowledge to be gained when one looks for real answers, when one accepts "God Did It" as an explanation the acquisition of knowledge stops.

wait, how did Sam Harris know Mormonism was going to play a part in the elections? mitt didn't formally announce his candidacy until 2011, this video was uploaded in 2007 according to the description, 4 years before the elections.

I was referring to life not on earth. Atheism does not speak at all on if there is only life on earth or not.

Thankyou for the recognition deserved!!! Now what exactly is your point???

What makes you think a soul is a thing? Or what makes you think that a person would "have" a soul as opposed to "being" a soul?

When he started speaking about Mormonism possibly playing a role in the upcoming presidential election, I had to double check the date to make sure I wasn't going crazy! :)

I agree. And I love your analogy. Here's another one that I thought up. Christians often say that God exists, and scientists just haven't found the evidence yet. I think that's like saying that water and vinegar DO mix, and scientists just haven't found the evidence yet. It's possible, but it defies and disregards all logic and reason.

I don't think the real issue is simply "believe in something that cannot be proven," The issue is making that unlovable belief such a critical, controlling part of your life. As a society, we do have hope of getting the majority of educated persons to make all of life's critical decisions (especially how they treat others) with a sound, evidence based critical thought process.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

Can you provide me a link or source that shows these top mathematicians being mind boggled by this?

I feel like "anti-theist" does not suffer the same intellectual dangers that "atheist" does. People think that atheism comes accompanied by a set of beliefs (the "belief" in empirical evidence and critical thinking) but anti-theism merely implies the dislike of religion and nothing more... despite the fact that atheism shouldn't imply anything anyway.

Atheism and theism are about belief. Agnosticism and gnosticism are about knowledge. agnostic: "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable" - merriam-webster com There are other definitions for agnostic, but the one I copy/pasted is generally the first one that comes up in any dictionary, and it's the one I use.

Here, let's move this to PMs to keep the comments section clear.

What Harris says is why I am Eastern Orthodox and always will be. I agree with him

To them, for whatever reason, insulting religion is worse than committing genocide.

that's only the colloquial definition of agnostic. In the academic definition of agnostic, you can have an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist, or an agnostic atheist, or a gnostic theist. As for Atheist, i'm not sure what is te traditional definition, but there is positive atheism and negative atheism.

Thanx.... BTW of interest it seems WLC has added new (Contemporary argument) premises to the Kalam cosmological argument. I guess as a philosopher he do that. en.wikipedia (dot org)/wiki/Kal%C4%81m_cosmological_argument

Are you from India?

Here in Finland christians are mostly in favor of abortion. Abortion is not killing babies, it is terminating pregnancy at an early stage before the fetus has any ability to suffer (legal limit 12 weeks after conception, with some exceptions). Religious anti-abortionists don't seem care about suffering though. Instead of proper sex education and contraception they pursue policies which are sure to cause higher teen/accidental pregnancy. We have lower abortion rates here.

The term Atheism is a positive & powerful label that helps unify & focus the movement of encouraging people to think rationally. Perhaps instead of "Atheist Conferences" we should call them "Conferences with People Who Choose to Look at The World Through Evidence and Thus Don't Believe in God". But I prefer the LABEL Atheist Conference. I wouldn't be opposed to calling it the "Rational Conference", and referring to us as Rationalists or even Skeptics. But we NEED a label.

I didn't choose the label 'atheist.' My family branded me with it when I was 'outed.' No problem for me though. First of all, it's accurate. Secondly, while there are some legitimate points of contention that warrant debate within the secular community (accommodation vs confrontation for instance), what to call ourselves is not one of these points. It’s a silly thing to fuss and cause ‘division in the ranks’ over, because it has little to do with the content of what we’re all advocating.

Thanks for the chuckle!

What makes you think we aren't worried about those as well? And if you think there's not a direct correlation between some of these topics, you are mistaken. Our economy is regulated by our government, and our legislators more often than not tend to be religious. Their beliefs influence the decisions they make. You can try to separate the two, but a person's beliefs do resonate into our world whether we like it or not.

That... Makes a lot of sense. I gotta say I do believe this guy has put a lot of thought into his arguments, and it shows.

that is the question is ... "possible for us to be happy"

Another brilliant lecture by Dr. Harris. It's this kind of thinking that I believe will carry the day in the long run. I think he aptly describes why most people shy away from the term "atheism." It is just as he says, that it has become a term largerly defined by our detractors, who have made a chalk line for us to lie down in. Brilliantly put. I have been saying this for a while that I do not oppose religion per se, but specific religious beliefs that are false and harmful.

Hands down, the best KZread comment I have ever seen.

I take chances without evidence of success becasue we may never progress if we don't. I have hope because I know that there is chance that I will succeed despite the chance that I might fail. I help people becasue it makes me feel better, it makes them feel better, it ever so marginally opens the door just a little wider for mankind's ability to progress. We love becasue it allows us to take care of each other and find ways to heal etc. It has indirectly tripled the life expectancy of man

may be so, my point is that the Atheist cannot be sure that God does not exist simply because we cannot yet prove God exists. So why would an Atheist say he "does not believe in God", when there is no proof God exists, just as there is no proof God does not exist?

What I got from this speech is that we don't need to turn the wide populations explicitly atheistic. It is clear masses are not good at having a well defined position on complex questions, they excel at ignoring stuff. So we need most people not to care about religion. Not to consider it an option. In the same way modern civilized people just don't think about sacrificing a goat.

Agnostic Atheist. That is what every person who says i don't know and/or i don't believe in god... As myself.

Trust is confidence in a subject with no gaurantee You have confidence that your wife won't cheat on you. That your friends don't put you down or gossip bad things behind your back . Trust and faith go hand in hand. Pretty much the same thing. Though the definitions are slighty different, it's practically the same thing.

That's not the topic he was talking about, and that wasn't the message of his lecture. Why would the lecture be titled that?

I did want to say that Sam is one of the more thoughtful and less inflammatory New Atheists and raises many good points. In this message, I get a real sense a lot of the caution is "don't turn atheism into a religion". It's actually a really good point.