"redefine the meaning of failure and squiggle with the numbers until you hit the goal" - classic British government maneuver there.

@peanutbutter5402

Жыл бұрын

-classic American and british military move

@juanandresmendezmartinez8024

Жыл бұрын

@@peanutbutter5402 Like father, like son

"It's dangerous to go alone. Here, take this L85." "Um... ya got anything from the Khyber Pass?"

Rock Island auctions expect the bidding to start at $3,000.00. This is not the purchase price. This is the money Rock Island will pay you to take this weapon away.

@RagnarNomad

Жыл бұрын

=))

Thank you Ian for debunking all of the crap we were told over the years by the MOD and Army about how we ended up with this crappy weapon.

@pete3767

3 жыл бұрын

What were the official excuses?

@fuzzlemacfuzz

3 жыл бұрын

@@pete3767 official policy was to deny there were any issues

@RagnarNomad

Жыл бұрын

Make you want to slap pretty hard those were responsible for those craps, right?

"behind schedule and over budget" thats pretty much a British motto at this point lol.

@RockSolitude

3 жыл бұрын

Add to that "and not as good as what was originally proposed" and you'd get the Australian one.

@RR-us2kp

3 жыл бұрын

That and the phrase "That'll do"

@adanzavala4801

2 жыл бұрын

Look at these first worlders fuckers complaining from the first world lmao

@thunderbug8640

2 жыл бұрын

​@@adanzavala4801 You have no idea of the incomprehensible hardship we have to endure, deciding which car to take for a drive on one of the small number of weekends with nice weather is just hell.

I remember the first time I saw the L85 in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. about 10 years ago. It was really interesting looking compared to all the AKs so I picked it up. Jammed after every mag. Never used it again in any of the games from the series till this day, unless I really had to. I thought it was just some game balance thing. Imagine my surprise when I found out that it was also so bad in real life.

@TheDeadfast

7 жыл бұрын

You actually picked it up? I just looked at the weight and decided it wasn't worth the effort!

@e2rqey

4 жыл бұрын

Tbh the reason it jammed when you were playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. it was because the durability was super low. That happened with every gun in STALKER when the durability was low. It's not like it was jamming because of internal issues with actual gun in a videogame.

@pete3767

3 жыл бұрын

@@e2rqey if you look in the game files though, the L85's durability (item condition loss per bullet fired) in particular was much worse than many other weapons, which after watching this, I can certainly believe to be fair😬 (Though the A2 was a thing by the time STALKER began development in the early 2000s, so it's a little unfair, maybe)

@dylanwight5764

2 жыл бұрын

The lore perspective of the A1s in the Zone is that they're not merely surplus -- they found their way into the Zone because not even the black market wanted them! These particular examples are meant to be shot to within an inch of their lives and even the Zone's residents avoid them if they have the choice.

@Pinned2Five

2 жыл бұрын

Turns out it jams LESS if you just use it in semi auto.

That brass build up problem. Oh god man, I still remember that being an issue with the A2! We were forever having to clear out that brass cack from the chamber and locking recesses! I had no idea it was such a problem! :O Another thing that really jumped out at me is just how little that lower wobbled compared to my old A2. Even with both pins in fully, it wobbled horrendously. Then you'd have other rifles which were so tight, you had to hammer the two halves together to get them to fit in!

Being a Brit and ex military, b4 the SA80 arrived, I've always wondered about the horror stories of the design. in one video you've answered so many questions. Thank you. So glad to be a patron, worth every penny/cent.

Loving the mental gymnastics required to make these things pass spec. "Oh absolutely, the dispersion at 300 yards is well within spec (when measured at the muzzle)"

Stories like this make you proud to be British

@md_vandenberg

7 жыл бұрын

I detect British Sarcasm™.

@lanceluthor6660

4 жыл бұрын

This actually made me feel ill when I thought of the pols and bureaucrats responsible for sending British soldiers into combat with this. Paying a huge design committee with zero experience then cutting cost on materials. I actually hate them!

@threeleafclover6003

3 жыл бұрын

@@lanceluthor6660 welcome to British politics my friend the army's been on a pay freeze for like the past 15 years which means there pay hasn't been adjusted for inflation so a lot them are having to live in army accommodation now because they cant afford to rent a house plus thanks to the twats in charge our army is slowly falling to the way side a good example is the fact the keep reducing the number of troops we have and reducing the number of vehicles we have for the armed forces

The L85 is an astonishing tale of "penny-wise, pound-foolish". It could have been a truly excellent firearm.

''The rifle isn't firing enough rounds between failures, someone call a statistical analyst, now!''

As a former British Soldier- You speak the 100% truth....they knew it was crap...but still made us use it, but blamed us for not cleaning our weapons correctly......the team that authorised the A1 want shooting with a A2 or A3! as the A1 would jam twice during every mag

Lets take a squad of 10 soldiers with 30 round magazines. With critical MRBF in the 1000 range, after everyone has fired 3-4 full magazines the chances are good that one of them is out of the fight for good because his gun just broke. If you add the non-critical malfunctions then at any given time someone is also out because they are field stripping their guns to fix something. All this while a firefight is going on.

@chrisdoe2659

7 жыл бұрын

Stick and a knife? That's closer to reality than you think. During WWII, there was a shortage of rifles in the UK. They made a quarter of a million "pikes" by welding obsolete bayonets to metal rods and started to issue them to the Home Guard before everyone realized that it was dumb as fuck.

@jackandersen1262

6 жыл бұрын

Paul Alexander why waste money on sticks and knives? The L85 would make a great club. When it shattered, it would cause additional damage from shrapnel.

@octavulg

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. I could completely understand fudging the minor malfunctions out. The serious ones? Insanity.

"Redefine the meaning of failure" It must be said, these weapons did manage to define a whole new level of failure where service weapons are concerned.

Great episode and an excellent look at how a design program can go horribly wrong. This should be required viewing in courses on design and engineering failure.

So this is really the Triple-A video game of the firearms world then.

@Azur1al

7 жыл бұрын

amazingly fitting comparison XD

Jim Sullivan chambering a round and just inspecting it to find the problems is just amazing. I would of never thought of that!

Thank you, Ian, for putting so much effort into your videos. Your channel is a treasure trove of information. In my eyes, you're preserving history, and in such a way that it never loses entertainment value. Also, the occasional quips and humor are awesome. Keep up the great work!

I hope Ian spend some time on the 21st century versions of this gun. The version in service today (made almost entirely of re-designed parts made by different companies) actually works really well. In typical British fashion it only took 30 years to get it to work as it should.

Gems like the description of the problems with a badly-designed feedpath are the reasons I'm subscribed to this channel. This was extremely interesting.

Ian, I just wanna say I'm loving this video serious. I love following the story of a rifle through development and hope you do more serious like this in the future.

I think I am starting to appreciate why specialist engineers exist. The knowledge of guys like Jim Sullivan is what makes a design work. I wish there was a resource like this channel in my field of engineering :P.

No, no, no, Ian, you don't use the expression "to cut costs" in corporate parlance, you should say "to optimize".

@Falcon-15

7 жыл бұрын

TotalRookie_LV nah it's called 'efficiency savings' these days!

@notpulverman9660

5 жыл бұрын

Do not mock synergy, Lemon!

@someguy3766

4 жыл бұрын

@@Falcon-15 'Restructuring' is another one I hear a lot (usually a nicer word for making hundreds of people redundant).

great video, with a thorough, and balanced, explanation of where it all went wrong. your SA80 videos would make an excellent "cautionary" case study for any engineering student.

Great video. I had rhe misfortune to have to use them when they were introduced. You have answered a lot of questions

A great case study in how NOT to develop small arms.

I just love these videos where you can get to travel to different places and not only look at weapons, but teach us about them!

Growing up in England in the 80's the propaganda was the Britain had the best army in the world. I'm sure I boys were the best (I mean it's our army moto) but this "gun" is an absolute shameful example of British red tape. Truly, truly shameful to go from the likes of the Brown Bess, Baker Rifle, Matrini-Henry, Lee-Metford and the Lee Enfield et al in to this shower of shit

@Duke_of_Petchington

3 жыл бұрын

@Gary Dodgson that was a Enfield produced FN FAL in semi.

This series of videos are fascinating because of the access Ian has got to the development weapons. It is excellent tail on how NOT to develop a weapon. I have shot both the army SLR (FAL) and SA80. I ran 400 rounds through the SA80, the last few hundred on full auto, which was fun

Great insight into the SA80 series, Ian really knows his stuff.

brings back memories. loving the series.

Thank you, Ian - the engineering details were fascinating.

What a cluster fudge of a rifle system. Thanks for the great series!

This gun breaks easier than the toys in the recommendations tab.

Goes perfectly alongside hot cup of tea

@kimjanek646

7 жыл бұрын

cheap chinese tea that is only lukewarm does probably fit better.

Great vid Ian, keep them coming! 'behind schedule and over budget' - Yep, welcome to Britain...

This is like watching the Canadian Ross rifle story backwards! and not even 100 years after.

Great story behind the development. Thanks for sharing.

Great videos!!! I have always loved the look of the L85. I wish I could get my hands on one.

Lots of love for British weapons lately. I appreciate that.

Listening to this as a Brit, I feel truly embarrassed on so many different levels

"Little Timmy was just watching some kids videos on youtube, and next thing I know he's looking at BIG, BLACK ASSAULT RIFLES!!!"

@jasondoe2596

7 жыл бұрын

TheGoldenCaulk, hey, I wouldn't want my (hypothetical) kids looking at *those* things, either - they're so goddamn ugly and shoddy that their sensitive, uncrystallised tastes could be harmed irreparably!

@UnrealT2K4

7 жыл бұрын

Learn colors with SBRs and destructive devices :D

@UnrealT2K4

7 жыл бұрын

worst guns ever --- too bad they are so rare and precious :D

@DrSid42

7 жыл бұрын

That's racist ..

@marcusburke55

7 жыл бұрын

DrSid42 Well, they are black.

welcome to england ian! sorry you had to go to leeds though xD

I don't mean to kiss ass here but I am pleased your channels doing so well, you do a lot of research and put a lot of substance in to your videos unlike many popular channels. It gives me hope!

9 of 10 British civil servants say, "10/10 would waste taxpayer funds again."

@Kraken1000

6 жыл бұрын

Sera Makes me very angry.

@FlamingCuntLips

5 жыл бұрын

b...b....b....b....but Brexit. They can hear their country calling lol :P Joking aside I really do hope they keep good ties to H&K

The words 'good and grief' spring to mind. However not surprising really! Thanks for the video

Christ, never seen a black furniture SA80. Looks bloody fantastic.

The Minor, Serious, and Critical malfunctions/failures is actually quite a reasonable idea, and would allow greater nuance in analysis of the data/determining the viability of the weapon. Of course when you mess it all up with bureaucracy, it becomes a nightmare.

This is a compelling series of videos on British bullpup design rifles. Thank you Ian. I visited RSAF Enfield in the early 1970s and as a teenager thought it highly technologically advanced. Thinking back now though, I realize that the technology was not that far advanced from Victorian gunsmithing. It was definitely run(ning) down by 71 or 72

This video in particular brought me close to tears (of rage or frustration, or something), because I know three gentlemen, commissioned officers of my Regiment, who were complicit in the process of preventing a potentially decent weapon meeting even the lowest possible standards of reliability in combat. Time - Cost - Quality. Good-Fast-Cheap Pick your two. You can't have all three. We didn't even aim for two out of three. Just wanted it cheap - 'cuz that's how you make the leap from front-line officer, to 1-Star and above.

Long time no see Ian, been looking forward to this!

@blako4702

7 жыл бұрын

Lol

@loganchandler9988

7 жыл бұрын

spef You legend, where have you been? So many of us were worried!

@acidobasico

7 жыл бұрын

spef, i was worried!

@DustinKing77

7 жыл бұрын

spef hi Spef! I was filling in for you. Hope you are in good health

@chaoticsquid

7 жыл бұрын

great comment spef, keep it up!

British procurement incompetence writ large. Underpinned by the paucity of knowledge of firearms in UK military circles. Superbly good work Ian. Any chance of doing a similarly penetrating talking head segment on the 2 new Queen Elizabeth class carriers, drilling into the choice of conventional propulsion over nuclear, no catapults on an angled deck carrier, the choice of the stymied, expensive and complicated VTOL F35A over cats and traps F35C Naval variant.

This story of the development of the SA80 has been like an out of control IT project that had incredible promise but was doomed from the get go. Then, management just kept piling money into it hoping it'll eventually work itself out. Except, people die of course.

1:35 "There was a lot of political concern that the guns had to actually work." *snickers in American*

@nigeldork

6 жыл бұрын

isn't that a mars bar?

@bobstacey9311

4 жыл бұрын

@@nigeldork Marathon bar

@nigeldork

4 жыл бұрын

@@bobstacey9311 I think in america the snickers and mars marketing is reverse of ours, I do remember when they were marathons though

This is quintessential British bureaucratic organisation at its _finest._ Even during WW2 when we had no money and no time and a shortage of every important material we eventually get the Sten, the Besal, the Stirling etc.

This story should be a case study in every business school.

Ahhh Britain... the land of quick fixes and doing a half-ass job in the name of saving money, even though it will inevitably lead to more problems and higher costs in the long run than if you'd invested in a little bit of quality at the start. The sad thing is, this is how we build our roads, railways, schools, hospitals and houses. Great vid as usual Ian :-)

@wierdalien1

7 жыл бұрын

Sam Brick that britain of post empire.

I've really been enjoying this series. I grew up in Manchester UK which is a fairly short drive from Leeds. I used to love visiting the Armouries. Keep up the good work Ian.

jeez what a shitshow.. people don't realize how lucky we are to have the AR-15. looking at other trials from other counties, the damn things are honestly kinda miraculous

@MODNAR22

7 жыл бұрын

To be fair people weren't a big fan of the AR-15 back in Vietnam either. It had its own share of developmental problems.

@cascadianpiper4378

7 жыл бұрын

That's true to a certain point, but kind of deceptive as well. While the SA80 had its actual design compromised by the bureaucrats, the M-16's problems at adoption and in Vietnam were almost exclusively related to logistics. The two main issues were the failure to issue cleaning kits and making the troops believe it didn't need to be cleaned, plus the fact that the DoD changed the spec on the powder used in the ammunition from what Stoner recommended.These obviously affected the gun's reliability but were easy fixes after the fact, neither had anything to do with the basic design of the gun. The SA80 on the other hand was almost a perfect storm of one screwed up component after another, to the point that even today after multiple revisions including HK's final improvements, the gun is just barely acceptable.

@donewithmodernlife

7 жыл бұрын

joh joh to be fair the AR-15 was designed well, the Vietnam era issues were with ammunition & lack of/misinformation about cleaning kits. Which was, in my understanding, caused by governmental mismanagement & penny pinching. Stoner designed a fine gun, the government was/is run by morons. Edit: zerosignal made my point much more eloquently. Must've been typing at the same time.

@mrb692

7 жыл бұрын

A civil conversation? On MY KZread? Now I've seen it all xD

@warellis

7 жыл бұрын

Another issue was quality control on things IIRC as they were ramping up production of the guns and ammo. Even well-designed firearms can be let down some if the QC isn't quite up to snuff at first. Of course the lack of cleaning kits and stupid claims given to troops about it being "self-cleaning" have no good excuses and contributed to the problem far more.

What a disaster. Great video as always. Kept me glued to the screen.

great series, the L85 is a somewhat sad tale but a very interesting one. Hopefully you get time to cover the single shot model issued to cadets!!!

It's frankly impressive how far they went in order to make a completely unacceptable gun be accepted, did they really not forsee that doing that would lose them much more money in the long run?

really nice history.

I've been really enjoying this series - I followed the progress of the SA80 in service and having the background to the design and introduction covered this was has been fascinating. Depressing but fascinating. Will you be able to cover the changes on the A2 to fix many of the issues?

This is a very interesting series Ian. Do you know why an arms company(Enfield) had people designing and building(and for that matter even working for them full stop) who didn't have fire arms experience? Thanks for putting these videos up.

Ian I love these videos but let's see more inrange!

I never ever thought firing pin holes would be such a issue!

I remember being told a story about the fastest issue to scrap ever with one of these. The unfortunate guy who was given one was stripping it for the first time and pulled one of the "captive" pins to hard and it came all the way out. He wedged it back in as far as he could then decided to hammer it on a concrete step to try and knock it back in again. Yeah,,,,,that's broke lol

@j-bard5409

2 жыл бұрын

The amount of rifles I've seen declared U/S because someone has ripped out a lower TMH pin

i have been to royal armouries in Leeds many a time!!

hearing Ian talk about those immediate action drills. i just need him to say cocking handle not fully forward. and see him forward assist.

Be good if you do a video on the A2 and some of the more recent developments, but I know a lot of that maybe unlikely.

You can see the original bipod version LSW (sans 'girder') in some Army training films from the early 80's (on KZread). It looks flimsy and awkward with the bipod to start with; I never knew about the accuracy problem it also created!

This is why it’s referable to hold open trials for expert gun designers to offer heir wares. To use just an in-house design team is bound to result in making excuses and massaging numbers to to make your stats fit your design rather than the other way round.

WOW!!! IAN!!! now, THAT'S AN INTRO --- :D

And is exactly how not to design a rifle. Or anything for that matter. I was told the firing pin on my LSW kept breaking because they made then cheap and light, then spot welded a hard steel tip to it. Looking at the rest of the rifle at the time, it made sense. Tis explanation makes sense when looking at how the dam thing was made from scratch.

You should make a video dedicated to the L86 variant.

This is great stuff, will you do any more videos on the latest spec L85 as they now appear to be quite different, from the charging handle to the forward grip and picatinny rails?

@cardcrash

7 жыл бұрын

I just saw your book review that states that you will be continuing the story of the SA80, so I eagerly await the next installment!

They do look cool

God this is so amazing.....

Will you be making a L85A2 video with ARES? :)

@desantos1234

7 жыл бұрын

Lasyen he has. it's on their channel in the SA80 playlist. It's unlisted, but you can watch it

@Lasyen_

7 жыл бұрын

gotcha thanks

@desantos1234

7 жыл бұрын

Rik Raptor go onto their channel. click on playlists, scroll through and you'll see one call "SA80 History". the videos are there

@DrSid42

7 жыл бұрын

Nope, can't find 'their channel' .. can't you just link it bro ?

@desantos1234

7 жыл бұрын

DrSid42 how can't you find their channel? just scroll up on this page and click on the Forgotten Weapons logo.

The Pentagon Wars needs to have a sequel.

I can only imagine how the people at Enfield and the MOD were constantly saying "That'll do" while making this gun.

That whole development process sounds like a british version of "The Pentagon Wars"

Dude. I wished I'd known you were going to be at the royal armories.. I live 30 mins away.

Ian, the Bushmaster M17S might be worth of a review also as it is also an AR180 based bullpup and not to common. I understand this have been out of production and Bushmaster just never seemed to push them like they did their AR line.......sigh.

what a shame this is how enfield ended

I love these guns

This video brings to mind what I read about the back story of the 737Max.

Old army mate has one on his toilet wall it always did seem a strange place to keep it but i think you've just explained it.

Classic case of a Camel being a Horse designed by a committee? The original British Bullpup (which was built from solid steel) seems to have worked very nicely!

kind of reminds me of the "Wiz kids" and the early problems with the M16.

the curse of design by committee and design to a tight budget

i always wonder why when it comes to LMGs, LSW or mahine guns in general it's always a major difficulty to have quick change barrels on a weapon that isn't allowed to be very heavy, weapons like the AUG can change the barrel in like 5 seconds and the MG-42 had like 7 seconds and LSWs almost never have a quick change barrel and it's always a complaint that they have limited sustained fire

Ares should sell that polo. Looks great.

You'd think one of them would stood up in a development briefing and said "bugger it, just adopt the AUG"

The Soviet military intelligence service (GRU) had an internal-circulation weekly magazine. To the extent possible they tried to keep it secret from the rival KGB, but the KGB folks would always find a way to steal the latest issue.. The reason for that was that in the back pages, in the Humour and Jokes section, there would be news from the L85/L86 program.

@AGTheOSHAViolationsCounter

2 жыл бұрын

While this is a rather late reply I just had to say it. That being having known a couple GRU guys I can actually see this being a thing lol.

am hoping you get hand on the sa80 A2

Ok, that number of rounds between critical failures is... absolutely shocking.

would you be able to do a video on the modern L85A2? I have only heard good things from those that use it

@ForgottenWeapons

7 жыл бұрын

We will get to the A2; be patient. :)