Really fascinating episode. Many thanks to Mr Harris for his doggedness on this story.

Long episode? Ha! Not long enough! Fascinating. Stories like these with loose ends, missing pieces do carry significant substance in the woven tapestries of history. Who are the unknown people that may have changed the course of history in ways we can’t imagine, what was the thinking of the time, who was really in charge, what were the aims and goals. Such powerful details. I enjoyed listening to the author and was sorry not to find the books in audio format simply because it’ll be some time before I can read the hard copies but they’re on my list. Thank you for another interesting and informative video.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

You’re so welcome and thanks for the long and thoughtful response! Please subscribe if you haven’t already!!

@BhavyaAndrea

9 күн бұрын

I’ve happily been a subscriber from your early days. I do take long breaks from YT so I’m catching up with my fave subs just now. I’m not always in a position to respond thoughtfully but have wanted to tell you I already read (Audible) books from both of you and at first didn’t catch on that I already “knew” you both. I do love the channel and have have purchased additional books from some of your guests. I greatly enjoy learning about history related activities such as the mud larking, or lesser understood issues such as the post office scandal and how integral the post office is as almost a life force in British culture, getting to the truth, righting wrongs against people such as the Australian serviceman. Everything is connected. Thank you for these great podcasts!

@philmcraig

9 күн бұрын

@@BhavyaAndrea that’s so lovely to read! Many thanks for your support 😀

I am so grateful to you gentlemen for such a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much and I wish everyone here a happy and blessed Easter.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

And the same to you HP!

An excellent discussion of one of the ongoing mysteries of WWII. It is endlessly fascinating that, despite tremendous amounts of research and scholarship, there is no real way to get to the bottom of this history. I still think it’s a miracle the Allies won the war. God bless them all.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Absolutely !

@markingtime1024

Ай бұрын

It was a miracle. The ongoing disappointment of my 70-year life has been how we have, generally in the world, squandered what they gave us and saved for us. It's been squandered environmentally, socially, esthetically, ethically . . . from every possible standpoint. We should have done far better with their bequest.

Gosh this was SO interesting. I am a church diocesan archivist in Australia, and previously a Medievalist (Old Norse). I have only studied Ancient History and Medieval History, and I have never had time to study Modern History since Year 10 at high school. However, my father was born in South London in 1925, and I have always been broadly interested in the world he grew up in before going to university, i.e. London circa 1925-1948. I am also interested in the history of royalty and aristocracy as social phenomenona, as well as the personalities and the cultural milieu of these people who were in a position to affect history.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks Louise - we did an entire episode on 1940 at the start of the podcast which you might also enjoy

@louisetrott5532

Ай бұрын

@@philmcraig Thank you, I will check it out.

Loved this episode. Really appreciate the doggedness of Mr Harris

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Thanks Jan

@andrewlownie2033

2 ай бұрын

John has certainly taken the story forward.

Apologies for being so late to comment! Especially since I have a self confessed intellectual crush on Andrew Lownie, having read manu of your books over the years! Love this channel! Thankyou for suvh and fascinating discussions.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks so much Tina. If you've not subscribed on here then please do and help us spread the love (for Andrew I mean!)

Such an interesting time in history. I'm constantly reading books on these topics - can't get enough. Great episode, thank you!

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Me too!

@Grace.allovertheplace

Ай бұрын

I couldn’t agree more with you 🙌

i came here after your show with Shaun Atwwod...i am not disapointed !

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Great to hear that !

Early subscriber here. We enjoy your podcast and look forward to it every week. I have a suggestion... when interviewing perhaps go turn about to ask questions to the guest? As a listener the amount you both talked over each other to get in first with your question was irritating and disrupting. Regardless, its always a great listen and a fascinating subject. Thank you for your work Gents.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Yes we need to devise a system so we dont interrupt each other so much

My favorite podcast. From Ohio. Who knew?

@andrewlownie2033

2 ай бұрын

Thank you. Always open to suggestions.

This was great! Very informative! More follow up information please! Also a pro-Churchill podcast would be great! He had his faults but he saved Britain.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Thanks. Have you tried episode 5? Very pro Churchill!

@almi3767

2 ай бұрын

Thanks so much! I'll watch it asap!💕

I can only say what others have said, fascinating episode. Thought maybe I could add to the number of comments and boost the algorithm.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Well that’s always appreciated Lynn! Many thanks (and please subscribe!)

Slightly speculative yet fascinating. Thank you.

Andrew looking very handsome in his crisp blue shirt

@andrewlownie2033

2 ай бұрын

Thank you! I will wear in future.

@jonathanbrewer7072

2 ай бұрын

And Phil looking jolly dapper in his M&S crew neck navy coloured jumper.

Fascinating podcast and a plausible theory.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks Joan!😊

Fascinating and interesting discussion. Really glad I found this podcast.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks Margaret - we’re glad you found it too! Please spread the word if you can.

Very interesting, thank you.

Brian here from Dublin, as usual excellent podcast . Thank you.☘️

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks so much Brian.... perhaps you are the reason we keep appearing in the (lower reaches of) the irish apple podcast chart!!

Thanks!

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

That's so kind of you Anthony. Thanks for your support.

Fascinating!

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to witness Churchill's reaction when he was told Rudolf Hess had just flown in. Amusing myself imagining scenarios as he and other people got that call/telegram. Obviously no secret there were plenty of members of the British aristocracy who were Nazi sympathisers. Another extremely informative podcast. So impressed by Harris's in-depth research and agree that he did explain it extremely well. Very thought-provoking points about the Duke of Kent being in Orkney and that Hess flew in so close on the heels of the vote of no confidence on Churchill.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words and yes indeed - that fly was fortunate !

@Tch5802

2 ай бұрын

Not necessarily Nazi sympathizers. Just didn’t want to throw the empire away to defeat the Nazis militarily rather than diplomatically.

It’s very salutary to learn that after all these years where I let my curiosity take me wherever, I still know nothing!

Brilliant podcast, can you do a show on the loan charge and how HMRC who I firmly believe are involved with the promoters of the loan charge, there all making money out of the public. Thanks again to you both I love every podcast.

Thanks for this!

This was a great episode. I have two remarks. First remark. Why did Hess fly alone? If this was an officially sanctioned mission of a critical nature, it would be logical to assign a professional pilot familiar with X-gerät or Knickebein to do the navigating and flying. Why did he make the long flight from Augsburg to Dungavel when he could fly from occupied Norway, Denmark or even Kiel. The Messerschmidt 110’s were stationed in Norway and the 110C with additional fuel tanks could make it to Scotland and back. The 110E Hess flew had a longer range. All 110’s were twoseaters. That means the Luftwaffe could assign a pilot or even a navigator until the very last moment. Second remark. Why was Hess not eliminated between the end of war and his incarceration at Mondorf-Les-Bains or Nuremberg. I can understand they kept him alive during the war for fear of reprisals but they had from April till at least August to “suicide” him.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Great questions and I feel sure John has thought about all of them! Hess was an experienced pilot and I guess having him fly alone gave the Germans ‘deniability’ and a ‘oh he’s just lost his mind’ get out clause if it all went wrong.

@peterpluim7912

2 ай бұрын

I can recommend the book of Dr. John Rees, one of the two psychiatrists who treated Hess while he was under arrest. He described life with patient Hess and his dilemma. If Hess was certifiably mad, he had to be returned to Germany under the Geneva convention. They couldn’t do that for obvious reasons but that placed the British in an impossible position at the end of war when Rees was one member of a commission of three who had to judge if Hess was competent to stand trial. I have many questions about the length of his incarceration in Spandau, but it defies logic to think that Hitler knew.

@peterpluim7912

2 ай бұрын

Hess tried to commit suicide several times while in British captivity. After a year in a secluded safe house where he did two attempt (one serious, one…), MI6 gave up on the idea that Hess would tell them anything valuable and he was transferred to a mental hospital. If I remember well he tried to commit suïcide there again. It is all documented in the very depressing book by Dr. Reese. All the info about his mental health make his long incarceration more suspect. They released Funk who was also sentenced to life imprisonment because he had diabetes but they kept Hess who was a lunatic.

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

Good evening. The solo flight made the whole endeavour deniable, if it should go wrong. The last letter Hess sent to Hitler concluded by saying that 'if all else fails, say I was mad'. That is precisely what Hitler did. Clearly, the fewer the number of people involved the better. X Gerat and Knickbein were different to Elektra, a passive system.

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

We interviewed John McCarthy to try and understand the effect of incarceration on the mind. The Hess incarceration followed a similar pattern to John's, the difference being that Hess was never going to be released.

This was a very informative video thank you. It would be interesting to hear your views on other members of the, pre-WW2, Anglo- German Alliance and their involvement with wartime politics and military matters please.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

There's a lot about that in Andrew's Duke of Windsor book!

@janwhite6038

2 ай бұрын

What's the name of Andrews book please? Is it already published please?

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

@@janwhite6038it’s called Traitor King and yes it’s been out for a few years now - a terrific read

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

@@janwhite6038it’s called Traitor King and was published a few years ago now

Gentlemen - Another fascinating episode, thank you. I enjoy your mixture of frivolous royal gossip alternating with serious topics - sometimes within the same show! Would you be interested in doing an episode on the Mau Mau Rebellion? As an American, I've got an uneasy feeling that we've been sold a bill of goods about that conflict by the British establishment.

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Many thanks and yes we enjoy mixing it up too - that’s why Lady CC is coming back soon! Mau Mau is a great subject and we touched on it slightly in the White Mischief episode recently.

@andrewlownie2033

2 ай бұрын

My father was a judge during it so a personal interest. David Elstein would be good on this. @@philmcraig

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

Oh and if you haven’t already we’d love it if you could subscribe on here - and share!

Amazing content keep it up gentlemen, can you do a podcast about the premier of France and his “wife”

Memories of WWI carnage affected both sides.

Quite revelatory , thank you very much Gentleman .

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

You’re welcome. Thanks for watching and please stick around!

My first experience listening to one of your podcasts, and I have to say, it held my attention throughout! Wow, I thinking there's a lot more that went on during those years than we will ever know. My fascination started with a book called Top Secret Tales of World War II by William Breuer, picked up at a driveway sale here in Ontario. Subscribed!

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Welcome Thea and thanks for the generous comment. There’s a whole episode on 1940 too! 😊

Just subscribed (from Aust) and I love the breadth and depth of these topics. Recommending where I can and please keep going. Quality will surely see your numbers grow! WW2 was my major and I just love all the new information that has come out . Fascinating stuff.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks so much Marianne - in one of the first episodes we talk exclusively about 1940!

Perhaps Hess came to tell the British about Barbarossa and that the Blitz would end shortly. Effectively it was a soft peace.

Another excellent episode. Although I enjoy conspiracy theories as much as the next person this one seems to require so many people to keep a secret that it raises doubts to the accuracy of the tale. Nevertheless, fascinating.

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

On the contrary, very few people need to have known what was happening. Germany: Hess, Haushofers and Hitler, Britain: MI6 and possibly the Royals.

If this had been the case and revealed after the war, would we have got rid of the Monarchy?

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

good question and i think that's maybe one reason it was all hushed up! I'm not certain that the royals were an active part of any peace plot, but would they have been sympathetic to it at this moment in the war? Maybe....

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

The $64K dollar question. It would not have looked good if the truth were to emerge at Nuremberg.................

In fact the first interpreter sent to interview Hess was the Polish Consul-General in Glasgow And the attempt on Hess was later and caused Hess to be moved to a remote hospital in Wales

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

Quite right, but not sure Battaglia was sent. There was a later MI5 report questioning how he got into that position. What is for sure is that as a result the Poles knew precisely who they were dealing with. Hence Moncrieffe House meeting.

@brendandmcmunniii269

2 ай бұрын

@@johnharris3667 thank you. The Poles had significant assets in Scotland at the time and could well have pulled it off . Speaking of the Poles, didn't they send an emissary (a Finn) to Switzerland in the hope perhaps of persuading a prominent Nazi to come across ?

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

Not really. Borenius was the secretary to the Anglo Polish relief fund, but that gave him the pretext to travel. However, it was a MI6 plan. Please see the Von Hassell diaries for more details.

@brendandmcmunniii269

2 ай бұрын

@@johnharris3667 thank you again What a fascinating rabbit hole this has turned out to be on a Good Friday afternoon

What might have happened had Hess struck a deal with Britain might Germany and Russia have weakened each other resulting in a better outcome overall?

@philmcraig

2 ай бұрын

I'm not sure - but without a base in Britain for US forces to operate from is is hard to imagine how western Europe would ever have been liberated.

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

The question is if Germany had beaten Russia, would Hitler have turned back westwards and taken Britain on again? There is every likelihood, see Fuhrer directives 30-32.

I can remember someone in 1980 telling me that the "real" Rudolph Hess had a massive lung wound in WW! but the one in prison did not. Rather definitive. But I had been exposed to rumours for years before and had come to the conclusion that the Hess next to Adolf was the same person as the one at the Nuremberg trials. Not wanting to let go of my beliefs, after about 5 seconds of deductive reasoning, I asked "When did the switch take place?" My friend deflated about 1 cm as he realised that in the chaos 1918/19 anything could have happened. Everyone a winner - I could still believe that the "real phony" was in prison and my friend could still hold on to the fact that a switch had taken place. Is there any substance to the "massive wound" assertion or does it only have entertainment value?

@johnharris3667

Ай бұрын

He was shot in the lung in 1917 by a small bore rifle. The scars were present in 1941 and the DNA evidence proved that the Spandau Hess was the 1941 Hess. (By way of contrast its not much of a job for a doppleganger to be imprisoned for 47 years). It was never a massive wound.

A key point that you don't address is weather this Scots lord wanted to speak to had a reputation as a member of the appeasement faction of the British government, That would be a key question as to why Hess wanted to speak to him. If he did not have a reputation as an appeasement advocate and German sympathizer.Otherwise, why would Hess want to meet him? Another unanswered question is whether Lord Halifax, the foreign minister and rhe unquestioned leader of the appeasement faction, was involved in this alleged cons[piracy. He would be the obvious person that Hess would need to make a deal with. Halifax was the only man who had enough political backing in the Conservative party to initiate peace negotiations.

@johnharris3667

2 ай бұрын

The Duke of Hamilton was not in a position to make peace, nor was Halifax who was essentially in exile in the USA. I did check where Halifax was that weekend and it was on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. The importance of Hamilton was that he had a constitutional right of access to the Monarch. The Monarch could make a peace, irrespective of Parliament. The Hess affair was a non governmental peace initiative.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

I believe Hamilton had spent time in Germany and may have met Hess before the war. As for Halifax - who we did mention in the context of the 1940 peace initiative- he’d been sent to Washington by Churchill and was working to try and get US aid. Thanks for watching John!

@johnharris3667

Ай бұрын

I agree that this is an important point. Hamilton was clearly closely linked to pre war Germany and was acting as a quasi agent during his travels. His wife was also, somewhat bizarrely a patient of Hess's friend Dr.Gerl in the Allgau. So, yes, Hamilton was an obvious point of contact; especially with his aeronautical credentials. However - He could not seal a peace deal as he was not in a position to do so, constitutionally or otherwise. Halifax was very similar, but 5000 miles away. Hamilton is the key - but was he being used? Real or Illusory? Coup or Lure? The killer question..........

Hi, I wish historical people, such as Hess, and my favorite the Swedish *“diplomat”* Wallenberg, Raul Wallenberg would become a regular part on your pod. I’d appreciate it immensely if you were interested in bringing an expert on Raoul Wallenberg to your podcast and go over not only the known facts but the a thorough analysis of his life as a whole. Also I deliberately use clammers on *diplomat* due to the complexity of his family history. Yes indeed his family lineage is that of the famous Wallenberg’s, but realistically his father wasn’t part of his brother’s success, so even though Raul Wallenberg is in the Wallenberg family clan, he wasn’t seen as an asset by his father’s brothers, but rather seen as a burden by most of the Wallenberg family! The lineage Raul Wallenberg came from is not that of the Wallenberg family which was,- and since then has become an even more prominent family today. The one person in the Wallenberg clan who cared extensively for Raul Wallenberg was his grandfather - vis-à-vis the father of Raul’s father and his father’s brothers = Raul Wallenberg’s uncle’s! I rest my case here, but I’m hoping to see in the future if you can make out something special in regard to him and his faith, which in writing is not clear at all. Many many thanks for interesting and educational content, I found your channel through Andrew Gold’s podcast Heretics. Respectfully, Grace🩰

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Welcome Grace and thanks for the excellent idea about Wallenberg. Will raise that with Andrew asap😊

@Grace.allovertheplace

Ай бұрын

@@philmcraig Many thanks for your reply and your kind gentle welcome of me to your channel. I wish you to know how honored you made me feel by the attentiveness you showed my suggestion about a potential future episode of the unknown destine of Raoul Wallenberg by letting me know that you will bring it forward for further consideration together with Andrew. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Respectfully, Grace🩰

❤😊

Conspirators interested in a separate peace with Germany would have been far more sensible to negotiate with Halifax, who was both foreign minister and an openadvocate of peace with Germany, giving him a great deal of legitimacy, than relying on a deal with Hess sealed on some remote airfield in Scotland. And in fact emissaries from Halifaz ,some of them members of MI5 and MI6, did meet with German agents and/or Swedish intermediaries somewhere in Europe. Switzerland, I think. While Halifax was foreign minister and had the support of several other cabinet members, the Duke of Hamilton did not have a high position in the government, and was unlikely to be able to bring off a separate peace with Germany. He and the other members of the "Privy Council" in and around Scotland did not have the power to negotiate a peace with Hermany. Halifax, perhaps, did.

Quoting the late Princess Diana “The British Royal Family are German.”

@philmcraig

2 күн бұрын

Very true Francesca - and the Spencers rather looked down on them!

That episode was very interesting and I am especially looking forward to 'Nazi week', but I won't be watching the sport episode.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks Laura. Looks like most subscribers agreed with you about sport!

If there was such a consiracy, the conspirators were unrealistic. The King demonstrated in many ways in 1941 his committment to fighting the war, such as his constant work on the East End to help dig out rurvivors from the rubble. He wa salso fond of telling people in the East End, "THe German bombed my house too." A bit of an exaggeration, but the Germans did drop one bomb on the lawn outside Buckingham Palace in an effort to intemidate the king. It also would have been hard to get around Churchill, who after all was Prime Minister, and the majority of Cabinet members who supported the war. An attempt to "prorogue" parliamentwithout the consent of the Prime Minister and the existing parliament would have aroused widespread indignation amid the British people,. The conspirators, whatever their rank, mayhave faced arrest for "treson.: Anothe rproblem was that by 1941 a majority of Britons were committed to fighting the war, even though they were not happy about it. Chuchill's fiery speeches persuaded them that it was necessary, and that only "victory" could enable them to a better life after the war.

@johnharris3667

10 күн бұрын

We did consider the 'separate Scotland' argument, but cannot concur. The SNP were pretty fringe in 1941 and their leader was residing in prison. Moreover, Hamilton was an aristocrat with allegiance to the Crown first and foremost. I cannot see who might have led the Scots in such a venture and I just do not see it working - Forced devolution in the middle of a war? The constitutional power resides with the Monarch and that is why we favour the prerogation or threat of prerogation premise.

@philmcraig

6 күн бұрын

@@johnharris3667fascinating discussion! Thanks John for engaging 😊

I have had a sudden "brainstorm." The purpose of the conspiracy involving Hamilton was probably not to seize control of all of Britain directly, but to bring about the secession of Scotland from the United Kingdom. While hamilton and his associates had little power in England, they did haveconsiderable power in Scotland. That of course would have caused the British military, particularly the navy to collapse. And that iin turn would eventually mean peace with a "rump" England as well as Scotland. The Scots National Party, which had considerable support in Scotland, was more or less openly antiwar and sympathetic to Nazi Germany. If some of the great landowners of the country, including Hamilton, would provide considerable ballast to such a secessionist movement, and would enable them to bring along many of their tenants and other dependants into the movement. Conveniently, a Scots House of Parliament and a Scots royal palace still existed, (in Edin borough?) , even though they had not seen much use since the Act of Union in 1707. Still, the Scots had insisted on inserting into that act, or perhaps another one adopted at the same time, that that permitted Scotland to "give notice" of their intention to secede from Britain to the Westminster parliament. This is the most likely explanation of a Hess conspiracy, if indeed it did exist.

It is always the same with these amateur historians who lack professional education and knowledge. John Harris is completely unable to make a consistent point on the Hess case. He jumps in a confused manner from one item to the next. He is ignorant about the intensive German research on the subject of the Hess flight. The alleged documents, he refers to, tell a different story or simply don’t exist. And what he presents to his audience is nothing but pure bullshit. Sorry for this devastating verdict. But I myself wrote a book on the case and I know what I am talking about. Prof. Dr. Rainer F. Schmidt

@johnharris3667

Ай бұрын

I look forward to the debate Herr.Rainer.

@johnharris3667

Ай бұрын

Sorry. I should also have said that Herr Schmidt wrote his book in 1997, since which time there have been a number of findings (mostly by ourselves) in connection with the flight. 1997 is a long time ago, but I do not deny he 'knows what he is talking about' (or he did in 1997).

@johnharris3667

Ай бұрын

Andrew and Phil. More than happy to challenge Herr Schimdt to a podcast debate if thought of interest. Like of a number of academics he is quick to deride, but without saying why. I am sure he must know more than I , so let him tell us why I am wrong, rather than just being rude. The challenge is there................

Early subscriber who thoroughly enjoyed this historical discussion.

@philmcraig

Ай бұрын

Thanks Betty! We want to have a variety of topics. 😊