Hi Chris. Considering the state of the oil on the cylinder head, what was the condition of the cam lobes? I'm considering fitting one of these engines to my TR6 and a cam reground to Dollie Sprint fast road specs is one of the several improvements I have in mind. However, with the lobe doing twice as much work as a those on a normal camshaft, premature wear is always going to be a concern. Perhaps the cam in this engine will prove the naysayers wrong!

@ChrisDRimmer

3 жыл бұрын

Hey V6Pulsar, I actually can't remember what the camshaft looked like to be honest! I can only guess it can't have been too bad - I would definitely have checked it out once I got the engine apart, and I don't remember looking at it and saying "ah hell that looks awful" or anything. That being said, I never actually got the camshaft out of the carrier myself - I couldn't get the retainer key out so I could only spin it around by hand and get a fairly rough view. So, it might be scrap. If it is I might well save it by sending it off to a specialist (likely Piper tbh but I'm open to recommendations) to be embiggened and reground to suit boost, but I can't say for sure. It's in with an engine builder 200-odd miles away from me at the minute, one who isn't known for rapid turnaround so I'm not expecting to hear anything in the near future to be honest. For what it's worth by the way, yes each cam lobe is actuating twice as many valves as on most engines, but the contact pressure is no higher than on a more conventional valvetrain. I might expect them to wear out twice as fast as a more conventional camshaft would, but I'd surprised if it's much worse than that. Considering a well lubed camshaft (which this obviously wasn't, but still!) can happily run a million miles, it's probably not a problem.

@ChrisDRimmer

3 жыл бұрын

Just as a side note, if you're doing an engine swap I'm not sure I'd recommend a PE166. I'm building this thing for comedy purposes and curiosity mostly (and if you're doing the same, that's fine! No judgement here) but I'm well aware it's a total unknown and might scatter its guts at 200bhp, not to mention it weighs a ton and has next to no aftermarket support etc etc etc. If I had a sensible brain in my head I'd swap a K series or V8 in. Don't get me wrong I like the engine, and I do want to see it do well. But I'm well aware I'm very very stupid for bothering to try and tune it!

@v6pulsar

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisDRimmer Hi Chris. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm in NZ and my TR6 is fully restored with a perfectly good rebuilt PI engine. If I had the time and the money I'd buy a rough TR6 and put a crazy powered Holden straight 6 in it on a Ratco chassis, but that's never going to happen. The TR engine is big dollars to get any significant power increase from and the crank is fragile. I've found a guy over here who has 3 of these engines and from what I read it's not too dissimilar in dimensions to the Triumph engine. Anyway, if it checks out size wise then I may be able to use it without doing any changes to the current car that can't later be put back to standard. From what I've read, the PE166 has heaps of potential that was held back by Rover so as not to be a threat to the V8. Your namesake Rimmers have a lot of cheap parts for this motor and Newman cams will do a regrind to Dollie Sprint specs for 100 quid so they told me. I will keep mine NA with higher compression, flowed ports, fast road cam, throttle bodies and Megasquirt ECU. Possible larger non-Rover pistons if necessary and looking for close to 200hp which should be quite achievable without massive expense. AND, just imagine the WTF factor when the bonnet is opened! That's really what I'm after :)

@ChrisDRimmer

3 жыл бұрын

Then fair enough! From what I can see, the head seems to be a really good design and the engine mostly seems to be held back by carburetion and the cam. There's a chap called Bruno Pinho running a PE166 with a reground camshaft, a new exhaust manifold, and triple webers, pushing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 190bhp so fairly large gains are definitely within reach on these. For what it's worth, Simon BiTurbo has another comment down below (underneath jgh548's comment) mentioning that forged rods for a Nissan S30's L28E engine should fit the PE166 without horrendous changes, and given the Nissan motor has a bore of 86.1mm compared to the 2600's 81mm, *if* the gudgeon pin offsets are similar between the two, you could get to 2934cc fairly easily with just a rod and piston swap which sounds like an easy 10% :) I didn't know this until a few weeks ago when Simon mentioned it, and it's got me thinking I might actually bother with a re-bore, if the pistons are compatible. The only thing that had put me off bothering was the custom pistons I thought I'd need, but that might not be the case! Quick note on camshafts - Simon BiTurbo has proven to be a fountain of useful knowledge. This quoted from one of his comments on the Rover SD1 club forum: "I've also been in touch with Bruno about his race 2600 and which camshaft he used. Luckily he's been very happy to share information which you don't often get from racers! He mentioned that the camshaft he has is a reprofiled standard cam that was done by a friend before they passed away. Might be why it's a little difficult to get another one made! However, he was kind enough to tell me that the initial profile used was from a race Austin Healey camshaft. If it's the works Healey camshaft, then the cam specs are 0.454" valve lift, 300deg duration, and 48-72-72-48. Even just knowing that the standard camshaft can successfully be reground to a hotter profile is useful!" I've seen a few videos of Bruno's car running and I have to say it's a very rowdy sounding profile - it has an absolutely delicious lope at idle and sounds downright furious when it's going balls-out.

@ChrisDRimmer

3 жыл бұрын

By the way, I'm actually also going to run MegaSquirt - I've had a MegaSquirt 3 Extra sitting and waiting for a project for like five years now so you can be sure I'll have a video of that as soon as I can. Getting the turbo fitted and the EFI running is basically my immediate next goal after I'm done paying for the bodywork! MS3X and BMW M3 throttle bodies, probably won't touch the head much tho as I've heard it's very flowy as standard, and unless I can see some easy wins I'll probably just leave it as-is :)

Reminds me of a 2600 VdP that I had back in the mid '90s. The crank needed renewing a few years later, so I bit the bullet and too the engine & 'boc out with a hoist and put a new crank from Rimmers on it. My heart sank after I had spent hours rebuilding it and tried to turn the crank a full cycle. The crank wouldn't turn a full 360 degrees. After some investigating, I realised that it had had, at some time, a 2300 engine put in it, therefore the conrods/pistons were too long (much later found out it has common conrods but taller pistons), so I had to head off to a scrap yard, dismantle a 2600 and get the rods & pistons from that. I also put on new piston rings too. Eventually, I got it all back together but it was very rattly as I hadn't preserved the tappet locations. It never was put back on the road properly as I called it a day and it went to the scrappers. Shame that... and a waste of about £1k !

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

Oh wow, thats got to be crushing when you turn the key :(

@lewis72

3 жыл бұрын

@@PedalBox I tried to turn the crank by hand before turning the key.

My mum had an SD1 2600 auto in green, from new, an excellent car that I have some of my best memories from. After being in a couple of V8s I'd say there's not much between them.

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

It's amazing how many people have experience in an SD1 somewhere in their lives!

Could of done with a series, on rebuilding this engine, I want to rebuild mine fitted in my kit car, I'm running it on triple carbs.

Distracted by how majestic Chris' hair is. Haha Also digging this Fleet series

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Truly a majestic mane!

Nice one. Good to see you back Chris.

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Ade! Just need to get him back to the kit car now :)

Glad to see you Chris. . Thanks for the video men

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

The proportions of that engine are massive!

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

It's pretty chunky, The crank really took me by surprise, seems so overbuilt

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

Honestly it’s just mad - way to much metal for such a boring 130-odd horsepower lump. Massive crank, massive valves (check that intake valve!), massive amount of metal left between bores in the block, forged crank and pistons... it’s as overbuilt as it gets. Looking forward to seeing how much boost it’ll take!

@BiTurbo228

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisDRimmer Bit of further research if you need it. Datsun L28 rods are near as damnit the same length as the standard ones (130.2mm vs 130.17mm). The small end is a bit smaller so you'll need to rebush the pistons, and the big end will need grinding 0.5mm to the datsun big end size. If you bend a rod then you could get forged ones affordably!

@ChrisDRimmer

3 жыл бұрын

​@@BiTurbo228 That's genuinely amazing info, thanks! I've been worried about the rods ever since I decided to throw boost at this motor so it's good to know I've got forged options for not-too-silly-money. Where do you find this out? I've been looking for some kind of database of part dimensions (and considered making one out of desperation!) but there doesn't seem to be one.

I’m waiting for people who know more about these engines than I do to absolutely *tear me apart* for something I’ve said here! I’m mostly working on hearsay and rumour in this build so it will be good to know anything I’ve got wrong.

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

If we got everything right first time, no one would learn anything! Fastest way to the right answer is to say the wrong one on the internet. That's Murphy's law ;)

@RiotontheRadioMSCR

4 жыл бұрын

Chris must be protected.

@alexlintern9347

3 жыл бұрын

Not gonna loathe and chastise! I tuned up a neighbour's 2600S with twin SU carbs and this engine will not run if the oil pressure sender is broken.....the oil pressure sender is linked to the fuel pump......just in case you get this problem! Good luck with the build

I hope the turbos big and the rods get forged 😁👌

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Anything has to be an improvement on 135bhp that it has. It's not brisk to 60!

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

Not aiming for huge power so it’ll be a smallish turbo, probably something like a “big” TD04 / HE221W or similar. This is a nice squishy automatic cruiser, so a big turbo spooling at like 4 grand isn’t really ideal. Saving that for the *other* SD1 :D

@GTFour

4 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisDRimmer Oh that's fair enough. You best be going TWINSCROLL then :D (check out some of Borgwarner's super quick spool offerings )

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

Pingman I’m skint so it’ll be a baby Holset. Single scroll for now, but the HE221W spools super easily even on little 2ltr engines so I’m not worried.

I just stumbled upon this video while browsing and will be following with great interest! I also have a 2600 that I'm slowly rebuilding piece by piece. It's great to see another out there.

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome! Must admind I'd (Ade) never seen a 2600 until Chris got one, Always just assumed the V8 was the only engine.

Also big shout out to Yolanda on the subtitling 😅 Right at the end there was an [Applause] which made me laugh!

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Slowly trying to get the whole back catalogue done, massive amount of work though

A wild Sam appears as well! Good to see you back although it looks like you’ve got your work cut out for you on that engine!

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

Thankfully it’s not as bad as it looks in terms of overhauliness. I’ve had someone who actually vaguely understands bearings (Sam) take a look at the crank etc and he reckons it needs a regrind and new bearings (lots of copper visible in the old journals) but that’s fairly routine and we have a tame engine builder round the corner who should be able to take care of what little work it needs. The repairs should be minor tbh. The mods, on the other hand.... those are gonna be downright silly. Stay tuned :)

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Should be an interesting build at least!

The engine in the Rover SD1 2300 & 2600 models were in fact Triumph engines NOT Rover. This was the last incarnation of the Triumph straight six which has its lineage going back to the Standard 803cc 4 cylinder engine. it was a highly refined straight six, with a very strong rigid crankcase and a strong bottom end, bit like the Sprint. The cylinder head was a high performance head based on the Sprint head giving a high efficiency cross-flow design. The ports were very nicely gas flowed, to which I doubt you will improve upon. The induction was classic Triumph, where they used a very long tract inlet manifold, first introduced on the later 2000/2500 and TR6 (USA) models, where it gives wonderful low down torque. You can see how good and efficient the manifold is and it completely discounts your theory where you suggest there would a weakness on cylinders 1 & 6 because when you removed the head the colouration of the combustion chambers were equally. the only problem was one carburettor was running very rich. The big downside on these engines was that the oilways to cylinder head were too small which did cause wear to the camshaft bearings, but this was due to the engine not being allowed to warm up correctly and being floored from cold. Looking at the state of the oil in the cylinder that hasn't been changed since the 1980's! So when rebuilt careful warming up is essential.

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

Good info, thanks Geoff!

*bring on the gunge!*

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

No pls make the gunge go away :(

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

So much gunk. in fact, Gunk might even struggle to get fully shot of that

Whaaaay the other guy is back

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

On camera at least! Return to the homeland now waiting on the SD1 bodywork

Really enjoyed this ep, it was a good break away from the norm, and good to see an engine getting broken down properly again. Loved seeing that crank! What a beast! Also good to see Chris is still alive. P.S. Heather says your goatee looks really good on you, and you should keep it. :D

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it :)

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

PE166 stronk

Chances of a spin off channel with Martin restoring Juke boxes? You could call it 'Juke box' 🤣 You know it makes sense 😉

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

"We put a juke box in the boot of a Nissan Juke"

I like the idea of throttle bodies but avoid the turbo idea because you'll need two of them

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

So long as it's well matched to the engine, shouldn't one suffice?

@alexlintern9347

3 жыл бұрын

@@PedalBox I have been surfing and according to experts with experience ITB's do not work well with pressure charging (turbo/supercharger). Personally the restomod approach with ITB induction, headwork and exhaust tuning would make it a very interesting machine. Pops & Bangs in a Rover is like OAP Pole Dancing........yikes! Good luck Chris & stay well!!

Really good to see some development work being done on these engines. They seem like there should be quite a lot of headroom for things like big bore pistons. I've got two in the garage waiting to go in a Triumph Spitfire at some point, so watching with interest 👍

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

I'll direct Chris to fill in, as I can't remember it all from memory :) -Ade

@ChrisDRimmer

4 жыл бұрын

Hello yes! Boring out looks kinda limited tbh, which I didn't expect cos it looked like there was masses of room between bores, 15mm compared to (for example) 7.5mm I measured on a VW Golf Mk1 GTI engine. Problem is, Rover decided to give the PE166 non-siamese bores, so there's actually a water jacket between each cylinder. I haven't been able to find any properly good science on the benefits and drawbacks of that design, but if nothing else it definitely means there's less metal around the pistons to bore out into. I've had a poke around (briefly!) and it looks like the biggest I could safely bore to would get me to something like 2.8ish, maybe 2.9 liters on a good day. Not really worth it IMO. If I was completely mad I could possibly delete the bores completely and drop some liners in to close it all up, which potentially gives me room to get to 3.1, maybe 3.2 or so. Maybe one day if I end up being absolutely made of money I'll consider it, but it feels like a huge amount of effort. So there won't be much "natural" power improvement here inside the tall block - everything I want to gain will be in the boost, intake, and EFI. I'll definitely do another video if the boost blows the crank out the bottom of the block though!

@BiTurbo228

4 жыл бұрын

​@@ChrisDRimmer Interesting. I've been reading through the SD1 workshop manual I've recently bought and there's a section on pressing in and out liners for the 2600/2300. Didn't know they had liners already! I wonder whether the liners sit against the water jacket (sort of like a semi-open block/wet liner design), or if they're pressed into full size bores in the block. If it's the latter, then the OD of the liners is ~84.2mm. Can't find any info on running a linered engine with no liners and bigger pistons, but I assume it's a bad idea. Still, if that could be made to work then you'd have 2.8l. As you say though, unless you're just trying to take the engine as far as it can go for the hell of it it's not really worth it. TBH if you EFI the engine then that's probably more development work than 99% of these have seen in the past 40 years! Boost will be very interesting to see as well. Curious to see how the 4-bearing (but massive) crank holds out.

@v6pulsar

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Simon. I'm looking to fit one of these to my TR6 and see that you're plan on doing the same to a Spitfire. Have you by any chance checked the critical dimensions against the Triumph 6? I can also source a 5-speed Rover trans from a guy who has three of these engines so may end up fitting both and doing away with the 4-speed & O/D.

@BiTurbo228

3 жыл бұрын

@@v6pulsar ​ Great idea! I have measured out a fair bit and it's very close to the Triumph I6 in most dimensions. Lengthwise from the gearbox plate to the pulley it's 28" (1" longer than the OHC). Lengthwise fromt the gearbox plate to the end of the deep end of the sump it's 13" (0.75" longer than the OHC). Height-wise it's the same height from the deep end of the sump up to the top at the back, but the shallow end of the sump is slightly angled. On one side it's 20" to the top of the cam cover (same as the OHC) and on the other it's 1" taller. The main difference is the length at the top as the cam pulley extends further forwards (28" total from the backplate, 3" longer than the OHC). That would require a bit of creativity for a Spitfire, but on a TR it should be fine. The LT77 5-speed is 3.75" shorter than the Overdrive 'box, but is a fair bit deeper in the middle. The bellhousing also has a bit poking out to clear the clutch engagement arm which fouls on a Sit chassis but might be ok on a TR. Lastly the gearchange on the 2600 version of the 5-speed is quite long (29.5" compared to 23" on the overdrive 'box). However, the short remotes you can get from Leyland Sherpas bring it to 22" which is pretty much ideal. Hope that helps! And let me know how it goes ;)

Was this engine not made by Triumph in Coventry? Such a pity it was not shoved into the GT6 or TR7 in a hotter performance spec

@PedalBox

8 ай бұрын

I believe so, pretty sure Chris has told me before, but i've slept since then so possible i've forgotten and misremembered

Bonjour ! J'ai une rover sd1 2600 quelqu'un peut il me dire si cette motorisation est fiable ?

@PedalBox

3 жыл бұрын

Hi, apologies for the delay, and my lack of translating ability :) I think the 2600 has been pretty reliable for Chris, needs well looking after like most older engines but it's over engineered and not stressed, so I don't see why it wouldn't be! (Chris might know better)

@minutepapillon5060

3 жыл бұрын

@@PedalBox merci beaucoup !

Get yer hair cut, scruffy! LOL

@PedalBox

4 жыл бұрын

The perils of lockdown, at least it was all one length this episode, makes continuity easier!