Absolutely LOVE this!! The bicycle part was my favorite. Not only because that is one seriously sick vintage Giant, but I thought it shows at even such slow, low consequence speeds, how risky this "technique" is. Thanks for making this!!

@LisaLadyRider

Жыл бұрын

Hey CanyonChasers is here! I love your channel!!

@BlindIo42

Жыл бұрын

@@LisaLadyRider It's like a motorcycle party, and all the best moto KZreadrs showed up.

@CraterLakey

Жыл бұрын

Did they get this idea from that comment on your previous video? That was an interesting comment thread.

@CanyonChasers

Жыл бұрын

@@CraterLakey Haha. I doubt it. We've both been seeing this come up a lot lately and I think both of us are trying to clarfiy things before riders get hurt.

@doitdamnit

Жыл бұрын

Hi Dave, nice to see you here! I´m here because of YOU 🙂

I've been riding for 50 yrs now and I can't even think of how this thinking started it makes no sense to have both brake and throttle on at the same time. Thanks for bringing valuable information to the less informed.

Correcting popular misconceptions with real world examples is certainly helping to make motorcycle riding safer. Thanks for the video.

Thank you for making this! I definitely had the misconception that trail braking still involved a small degree of maintenance throttle.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Glad you found this.

@fortunaterunt6834

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Endless trail braking discussion aside, this might have opened my eyes to something with downshifting I've been doing. Let's say I'm going 45mph in traffic to a stop light. Downshift to 3 w/rev match, throttle off then apply slight front brake, downshift to 2 *while still applying throttle to rev match while STILL holding front brake*, and finish off with rear brake at the last moment. The idea, so I thought, was to make a smooth deceleration to zero while keeping the tail light on for traffic behind. Clearly there is something I'm doing to be improved upon, any quick tips? I'm taking the advanced course through MSF shortly and am super curious on their take, because this concept could not be simpler.

@fortunaterunt6834

Жыл бұрын

And by that I mean this makes sudden perfect sense as to why something felt wrong, even when I attempted minor trail braking practice in the few places I can around here. Things must be out of balance, but an expert's take on this far outweighs most of what I've heard!

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@fortunaterunt6834 Totally ok rev-matching while braking - because we're pulling in the clutch lever. Effectively, we're not driving the rear while slowing the front at that point.

@Cxvalry

Жыл бұрын

I am a new rider and from alot of moto jitsu's videos he says he holds maintance throttle while trail braking? am i misunderstanding him or am i misundertanding this video? Use no throttle at all while trail braking?

What you’re explaining is basic common sense. But I love the way you’ve demonstrated it. Great video

WOW! I’ve never intentionally applied front brake AND throttle simultaneously! Blows me away that some folks think this is a good thing! Thank you for continuing to educate us!

Awesome video. Nick and the Champ School gang are doing an incredible job of dispelling all of the rumors and bad advice that get spread around the motorcycle community.

I can't say throttle + front brake makes sense to me, but some riding techniques are rather complicated so it's good to be informed about which ones are beneficial and which are not. been riding 13 years and I am looking forward to the ChampU course. Thanks for the video.

@malintous1

Жыл бұрын

Just looked into comments to see if anyone else was wondering this didn't get the video, I can't think of a situation where I would brake and accelerate at the same time. Some braking into corners yeah I do that though and that feel like a fine line between pleasure and pain.

Watched this over and over again. Many thanks for such a good riding tip Nick!

Freakin' brilliant! Period Fullstop. Those of us lucky enough to have been taught by you DO CARE about what you think. You and the YCRS Team are making riders better and safer in all aspects of the sport. Well done!!

I realized I may not be fully rolling off the throttle while trail braking…. it is hard to be sure but I did realize I better be more deliberate. This video reinforces the importance!!

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We should be deliberate and smooth with all of our controls.

Really good demonstration! Thank you for making this video.

This is such great information! I've been riding for a number of years, but much of what I'm learning here has not been articulated well by other channels I've watched. Dave over at Canyon Chasers, and now this Champ School channel that I found (thanks to Dave), are providing me with wonderful information presented in a way that's succinct, tangible, practical, measurable, and wise. I don't ride a rocket, but physics are physics. I ride a Gold Wing. The principles I've learned over the years from Canyon Chasers videos and Kevin over at MCrider are pure gold. Thanks, guys!

Occasionally I catch myself rotating my wrist downward slightly when pulling the front brake which opens the throttle. 😳 After un-puckering my butt, good habits quickly return. Nick is a great teacher.

not sure why this needed clarification but having said that this was a great video, thank you

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

If you read the comments, you will see why it needed to be said.

@avrc9285

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs yep, that was not really a question .. lol. great job

Need of the hour, perfectly summed! I think this should be termed as the coffin corner as they mention in aviation, when there's a saturation point, you fall.

I'm so glad you put this up. After watching a number of vids on this from another channel, I went out today and tried having both front brake and throttle on simultaneously while setting up the exits on a tight mountain road.. with no more than a 10% overlap, moving from light brake to even light break/throttle to no break more throttle. It was just ridiculously complicated to do, and couldn't find any benefit over trailing brakes in with no throttle, getting the suspension cornering/braking forces balanced while decreasing the brakes to off, then some slow throttle roll on til the bike's pointing the right way... then off we go again.

Great vid! I’ve been looking for a breakdown like this for a while now. Thanks!

Great demonstration! Thank you.

Thanks for the lesson. I HAVE been doing it, no longer as of today. 2005 Electra Glide.

I'm a believer now that I've seen this video. Many top motorcycle youtubers parrot what champ school teaches, which isn't a bad thing, but I'd rather get it directly from the source.

I was hoping Nick was going to bring out his FJR1300. Awesome video guys!!!

Excellent video and explanation!

Love the discussion.

To be honest with you i did this while going into turn 1 at Willow Springs and i did not like the front being pushed and losing grip........churping the front tire. Skid...accelerate ...skid... accelerate. While going into the turn and i ended up slowing down the bike by raising the front end. I should of Not have read it somewhere. I learned to think that smooth riding and practicing fundamentals is good. Body position helps too. I think it is not a good to use throttle overlap . I just want to fix my transition going into the turn and through the turn and exiting the turn. Knowing what not to do is important to me. Kieth Code said after the session i needed more practice after looking at my times. Going from slow to faster times made me think about setting myself up to good basic riding. Stick to the basics to get better too. Thanks a million Nick. Al

Always outstanding content Nick, you are a treasure, ever since the print magazine days.

Happy I watched this after watching some other self-proclaimed experts. My favorite part was the end when you said you were "fortunate enough to hang out with the best in the world, and NONE OF THEM HAVE THE FRONT BRAKE ON WHILE THE THROTTLE IS OPEN."

@Cog-pd3qn

Жыл бұрын

K so that was paraphrasing but still

I'm glad this video popped up. On my last track day, I was doing this exact thing. The R7 has a rapid rebound even at its' slowest setting. I would do this in order to correct the rebound issue. I will be getting the suspension adjusted ASAP. Thank you!

Thank you Nick!!! Al

This is one reason why I love the BMW s1000RR. If you haven't closed throttle before coming in on the brakes, it will close the throttle for you. This is very helpful in a panic reaction. Say someone pulls out in front of you and you react with full brake, the brakes will not complete with the throttle.

Good info, great spot👍

So... Then I guess I completely missed the idea of the trail braking... Until now, I thought it was just that: brakes + throttle. I have even started to practice that recently while commuting!! Thanks God I watched this! and to you Nick of course too for doing it.

@Ashrune

Жыл бұрын

Same, wow

@edgarg6559

Жыл бұрын

Glad you saw this man! Trail braking is when you’re off the throttle, start with high brake pressure, and slowing ease off (trail off) into the corner. Once you’re happy with speed AND direction, you can get back onto the throttle. Ride safe!

@dgphi

Жыл бұрын

@@edgarg6559 Yes, but it doesn't have to be high brake pressure. Braking lightly into corners is still trail braking.

@edgarg6559

Жыл бұрын

@@dgphi Very true, Dan. I meant it more as in you start with increased brake pressure and then begin to trail off. Thank you for that note, though.

@smolbodybuilder1602

Жыл бұрын

@@edgarg6559 but this only works with considerable speed or else I would just come to a halt.

Great content.

Like bicycle demo. Thank you

Wow thanks for this!

Wow! What a great nugget of wisdom. Loved the bicycle portion. Great slow speed demonstration. But I gotta ask...Can Nick do a track stand? 😅

I am teaching my daughter to ride. My advice was to slow down by pulling in the clutch and use the front and rear brakes both. The brake light doesn't activate during engine braking alone, so I want her to get in the habit of slowing down with the brakes. This will also eliminate the front brake/throttle problem you illustrate here. Now, with this advice of yours, that makes a lot of sense, but what about trail braking during cornering? You kind of HAVE to use your front brake and throttle at the same time!

I think there's some confusion, with the concept of trail braking. However, you can use the front brake, just at the contact point, entering a corner, releasing it on acceleration, on the exit.

you mean unlike "some school in PA" that advocates doing this. Good point on this vid. Doing both never made sense (except maybe off-road if I want to get the rear to turn a tad for me in sand, etc.).

Great video! You could merge this information along with the great videos on trail braking. I know some who think trail braking is applying the front brake in the turn while maintaining or slightly throttling simultaneously.

@Jleonpolanco

Жыл бұрын

I am in that camp. I have seen videos where it's explained in trail braking to apply slight pressure on the front brake to put more pressure on the front tire and increase the contact patch (thereby increasing the traction on the front tire) while just keeping maintenance throttle to keep the bikes speed constant while leaned over. This would be only on the street where you don't know whata around a blind corner for example, this would not apply to the track. I'm not saying this is right, just want some more insight on this. Thanks !

@CanyonChasers

Жыл бұрын

@@Jleonpolanco Trail braking is about braking - and slowing to get the bike to turn. The flaw is the idea that braking with throttle on is still increasing the contact patch on the front tire. It's not really if we aren't putting weight over that tire. Grip comes from weight and all that. If we are into a corner where we are happy with our speed and direction, it's better to go to a neutral throttle where the bikes radius stays the same rather than push two opposing forces against each other. If I need to slow again, simply ease off the throttle back to the front brake - and allow the weight to shift onto the tire we need grip from. While I ride on the street more than I do on the track, it was the track that revealed how sketchy this idea is. When I've tried this at speed, what happens is you end up with a bike that is really unblanced and you have a bike that doesn't want to slow down and doesn't want to turn. It's terrifying. There's no way I'd want to deal with this on the street where the consequences are much higher and the grip is even more variable. I was thinking about this the other day, in relation to why we look at what the winning racers (who don't crash) are doing. It's basically the cloesest we can get to scientific evidence because it's the most repeatable and the most measurable. So if all the top riders in the world, on the best possible equipment, and the most possible grip are unwilling to overlap front brake and throttle in near ideal conditions because it's too risky, then why would we as street riders want to in situations that are fraught with so many unknowns?

@ajpum65

Жыл бұрын

@@CanyonChasers Very well said! I probably watched 5 videos on trail braking before it was made clear that you aren't on the throttle at all when trail braking. One clarifying question while incorporating this technique on the street. Should you trail brake as a habit cornering or, only when you fail to slow enough for the turn do you initiate trail braking?

@ajpum65

Жыл бұрын

@@Jleonpolanco Thanks for the comment Jeff. I think CanyonChasers did a good job explaining this in detail.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We're actively trying to combat the idea that an open throttle (to any degree) has anything to do with trailbraking!

It seems to me that a big part of the danger is in how difficult it is to have actual 0 steering angle during the process. If you are on the throttle AND the front brake and the wheel can't rotate and there IS grip (like on good pavement), the engine *easily* overpowers the rider's ability to maintain a fixed steering angle and quickly pushes the steering to its limit. Once that happens, there is nowhere else to go but down.

New to the channel and subbed, can you make a video about cornering confidently and how to use brakes properly?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We have made a entire course around the subject. www.champu.org

@LisaLadyRider

Жыл бұрын

Not to take anything away from ChampSchool, you absolutely should do ChampU, its oustanding, but Canyon Chasers is also an excellent, high-quality channel if you are hungry for more. And he lines up with ChampSchool on pretty much everything, unlike a lot of the other moto-how-to channels that bounce all over the map on most stuff.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@LisaLadyRider We're big fans of CanyonChasers!

I have never used or being taught that you should brake with added gas. Im a bit shocked that this obviously is happening.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

So are we.....but it is being taught.

So enlightening. Could someone tell me what bike Nick was riding?

So what about trail breaking? I was taught to roll of the throttle and slowly pull on the front break, then slowly roll on the throttle as I trail off the front break

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, you were taught 100% wrong. We trail off the brakes as we increase lean angle at 0% throttle, then release the brakes to 0% pressure, and apply throttle either to maintain radius or to accelerate if we can see our exit and take away lean angle. The brake and throttle may come very close, but they do not overlap.

@slipnin2darkness121

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs thank you, you may have saved me from crashing. You get my sub.

Great explanation. Thanks. However, now I'm confused cos I'm a slow learner. Isn't that what trail breaking is? Lightly applying front and/or rear while keeping a steady or slightly increasing throttle? Some riding "gurus" say this is the way to go...your technique makes much much more sense. Have I got the idea all wrong when it comes to trail braking?

@apsalar_coruscan

Жыл бұрын

Trail braking has nothing to do with the throttle - other than the throttle being closed completely. Trail braking is simply giving away brake pressure as you add lean angle.

I had anxiety just watching this.

I understand and the demonstrations, as always, are really clear but to clarify, when I use trail braking in a corner I'm usually on a "maintenance throttle" so I am using brake and throttle and being very literal, they are overlapping. I think, however, by overlap you spcifically mean increasing throttle whilst trail braking !??

Does it make sense to briefly overlap rear brake and throttle? At the MSF this is done in U-turns, but what about slightly higher speeds? Say we approach a sharp turn at 20 mph and we want to scrub off 2-3 mph, but we don't want to close (and then soon after that re-open) the throttle. Would it be OK to scrub off 2-3 mph with the rear brake while leaving the throttle at a "maintenance" level?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We don't mind overlapping throttle and *rear* brake because we're not slowing the front while driving the rear.

What gloves are those?

Couldn't be more true.

Sorry to go slightly off tangent, excuse the pun, however sometimes I would use back brake and throttle on tight hairpins in order to continuously correct my speed. Is this recommended? Hope that makes sense

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

The rear brake has a ton of uses. Yes, we can use the rear brake to slow the motorcycle. It's a brake after all. We can also use the rear brake to eliminate wheel spin, control wheel spin, control wheelies, artificially add "engine braking" effect, steer the motorcycle, and slow rear suspension rebound. The rear brake can be used as a valuable tool for a lot of different reasons that don't have anything to do with slowing the motorcycle. We do not use the throttle against the front brake.

@robertanderson2552

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Many thanks from Northern Ireland

I'm confused now, I learnt to hold a small percentage trail breaking until the exit point, to enforse a full front tire grip and optimal caster angle. And, especially in Long turns, to keep some maintenance throttle at the same time to maintain the optimal speed.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like you're needlessly complicating the sport, so let's simplify it! (1) We close the throttle completely and go to the brakes when we're nervous. (2) We stay with the brakes until we're happy with our speed and direction. (3) We then completely release the brake lever and go to neutral or maintenance throttle until we can see our exit and are in a position to take away lean angle. (4) Once we can see our exit and take away lean angle, we accelerate. Note: if the corner tightens, we can simply close the throttle and go back to the brakes with zero drama as long as we're smooth.

@robertthomas4578

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Thank you for clearing this up. 🙏 I too was confused and did the same for trail braking.

@Epicures

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much for your explanation and for taking the time

@billlayer5117

Жыл бұрын

I’d add when you completely release the brake keep it covered (as we should always do on the street) so you can quickly get off the throttle and smoothly get back on the brake if something changes in the corner. You should do a video on a long blind corner with a sudden decreasing radius at it’s end so you can show initial braking then maintenance throttle then back to braking and finally proper exit acceleration. I think how this is properly done confuses a lot of people🤔

Absolutely true. I hit the limit. Thank Goddd I am here. Decrease lean angle downhill on dirty pavement. Make sure that throttle is all the way off if youre trail braking. But best thing is to handle all your sh%y before the turn. Totaling your bike and braking bones sucks. Cheers to better days, good health, and more wind.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We really want to keep our brake light on past tip-in for every corner we slow for... So getting all of our braking done before the corner is counter-productive.

@allahjoseph

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs copy that. A Yamaha instructor informed me of what I said, but let’s go melting pot of information!!! The key is to stay safe

@allahjoseph

Жыл бұрын

Side note. 3 days of processing my spill: Based off of how my bike went down and my body damage, I probably didn’t roll throttle and front brake. God bless good boots. Bad decision wearing just a T. I study and train way too much. I knew the potential risks. Always a helmet. My visor flew 50 feet. However, Lean angle and debris on public roads equal risk. Unnecessary risk. Save intensive leaning for low speed maneuvers or the track. Do not care about chicken strip. It’s stupid if your arms are chicken strips ready to cook after a rash. Keep tires warm. Change tires often n minimize lean angle. Wear gear if you want to lean GP style and never roll throttle and front brake unless you are purposely doing a burnout at your own risk!! Keep studying. Keep perfecting. Keep innovating. Keep sharing best techniques. Keep safe

That takes some big kahunas to lock the front tire up like that on purpose!

This JUST happened to me last night near construction by my house

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Hope you didn't fall down...

Thankyou for the video and information. For someone that has been practising the front brake trail braking technique (successfully) on the road with spirited riding for quite a few years - perhaps a decade, I am very confused with this new information. Can you show SIDE BY SIDE or explain in minute detail both techniques (trail braking & what your professing here not to do)?? I always thought that in the last part of trail braking there IS an overlap period (ever so small) that the throttle is brought on as the brake is finally trailed off. So if thats the case then I am doing something you are now saying I shouldn’t do. I feel that I have perfected this trail braking very well as its smooth, the suspension (when I get it right) doesnt move, chassis is completely stable, the whole process and transition is seamless and confidence inspiring, very satisfying -feeling the front tyre contact patch /loading change particularly feeling good traction resulting in full confidence whilst do it. I have had full control and never had the “washed out front” your showing, nor had any feeling of losing control from the pushing force from the back at all - ever. During that last stage of trail braking I can feel the bike transferring load from the front tyre and then trailing off as the throttle is brought on balancing out the load/forces onto the front & rear tyres pretty equal. I have followed the technique from Lee Parks “Total Control” and feel when I get it right I have nailed it. I say get it right because sometimes ( maybe 10% of the time) I feel like I didnt quite get the seamless smooth technique correct. Getting it right takes a lot of finesse and very good throttle/bike control. I only use the technique when at faster pace. So... could you please explain - if getting the front brake trail braking technique is correct - isnt that so ever so small amount of time where the throttle and front brake are on together (emphasising the ever so small time period) ? And the difference of what your saying here? Thanks in advance 👍

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Hi Jeff - I'm sorry, but there is never an overlap of throttle and front brake. They can get real close, but we never ask the bike to slow and accelerate (or even maintenance throttle) at the same time. There are very few absolutes in motorcycle riding, but this is one of them. As illustrated in the video, if you are overlapping the front brake and throttle, you are asking the motorcycle to do two different things. The throttle is telling the bike rear to compress, the radius to open, and the bike to run wide. The brake is telling the front to compress (or not rebound in this case), the radius to close, and the bike to turn. I am very glad that you have had suffered no ill effects of using this technique, but as pace goes up or traction goes down, applying throttle against the brake will end badly. We do have a ton of video content on this subject. Check it out. www.champu.org

@jeffestrada6857

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Thank you for the reply. I do understand - but I must respectfully disagree. I have perfected the technique that I think I have what I can describe as an “insignificant “ throttle and brake on same time but there certainly is overlap. I have finesse and very in touch with my bike’s control. I am very much as one when riding my bike. If not I am sure I would have come to grief already as I have used it for years. I respect Lee Parks very much and if I could quote Page 102 & 103 in his book “Total Control “ where he states the technique is exactly what I do. I dont want to sound pompous but I had an amatuer racing career in my time and this skill never let me down (even though at that time I wasnt as good at it as now on the street). Perhaps when I think about it the amount of throttle on when trailing the brakes off is so insignificant that I am “getting away” with it? Thats the only explanation I can offer. As much as I appreciate your information because of my success with this technique I will continue to ride as such. In saying that, with your information and education regarding this technique I will certainly be more aware of keeping that finesse and skill and not straying away from the minute amount of throttle that is there when trailing off. I may be close to boundaries so to speak and therefore reading and comprehending what you wrote giving me a warning regarding this. The other explanation just now that I am thinking is that the forces actually “cancel” out each other perhaps - remembering this ever so microscopic forces applied could be doing that in my case??? Perhaps?? I do appreciate your time, effort and reply. I absolutely love the technical side of performance riding and must admit this may be a case of what works for me may not work for you. Cheers Jeff (Australia ) 👍

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@jeffestrada6857 - The beautiful part about riding a motorcycle is we all have the freedom to ride it however we choose. We simply teach best practices based on data-proven techniques of the best riders in the world. Nobody riding at a high level uses the front brake against the throttle. Lee quotes Freddie Spencer in his book. Freddie has said multiple times that he is misquoted in that book. ChampSchool was built from the Freddie Spencer Riding School. Nick was the head instructor at the Freddie Spencer Riding School. If you come to ChampSchool, Freddie might be there when he is not performing his duties as head steward at MotoGP. Hint: Wintertime. You could listen to the guy who misquoted a 500cc/250cc Grand Prix Champion....or you could listen to the actual 500cc/250cc Grand Prix Champion. 100% your choice. If you show up, we would be happy to put you on a bike and we can prove out both theories. I'm going to listen to Freddie though.

@jeffestrada6857

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Fair call. We will have to agree to disagree. If in the ten years or so of using this technique I havent come to grief ( or anywhere near it) that I explained - then I must be doing something right! I have learnt in life many a trying to re invent the wheel, this technique is not new and the method I use has been in use long before you or I was riding or instructors of riding bikes. Therefore I will take on board what you have stated, and knowing Freddie Spencer wasnt the only successful rider in history have techniques that worked. Its been interesting. In this case I will listen to myself. Have a great day 👍

@mildyproductive9726

Жыл бұрын

@@jeffestrada6857 There's another way to view it. I wish Lee Parks would have explained it a bit better, because Total Control is pretty close to perfect. As you lean the bike in deep, you let off the front brake. And you (should) also want to let off the rear/engine brake, too, correct? If you didn't start opening the throttle slightly before you finished letting off the front brake, you'd be left with only engine braking as you hit your max lean angle... taking weight and traction off the rear while also demanding the rear tire to corner AND decelerate the bike. (Sure, you're giving more weight/traction to the front tire, but since you've just let off all the front brake, it doesn't need it. You won't benefit from that extra traction leftover on the front tire while you lowside from losing rear traction, prematurely.) You can literally view it as letting off the engine brake and front brake simultaneously. There's (hopefully) no significant overlap of acceleration and braking, at all. So even without considering the smoothness of the weight transfer, there's an obvious reason to do it... if you have the finesse and know your bike. In higher rpms (shorter gear), you should have a bit more overlap. At lower rpms, a bit less.

What about when you are in a blind corner trail braking, To maintain speed i need maintenance throttle, but i still want the break light on. This is the exception is that correct?

@literal_lee

Жыл бұрын

No! Incorrect and ridiculous.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We don't overlap the throttle and front brake. If we need to maintain our radius, we use neutral or maintenance throttle. If we need to tighten our radius, we close the throttle and go back to the brakes.

Ive never heard of this as an issue. Actually amazed that ppl do this. Is it an american thing? Genuinely puzzled.

Makes total sense. 🤓

I took champ U online and I’m heading to the school in September. But let’s just cut to the chase here…. What’s the name of the riding school that’s teaching this message and idea of brake and throttle?

@apsalar_coruscan

Жыл бұрын

Rhymes with Shmee Shmarks.

@phoxrides

Жыл бұрын

@@apsalar_coruscan Shmotal Shmontrol?

@archiewilson4943

Жыл бұрын

Motojistu

I don't understand completely. English is not my first language. Could somebody clear things up for me? What about trailblaking? While trailbraking there's a moment in which you have throttle and brake at the same time, right?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

No that is not trail braking. We never use the throttle against the front brake. Ever. Trail Braking: kzread.info/dash/bejne/iaqmydBukc61nZc.html

Press the clatch No power to rear wheel

I've watched plenty of Motojitsu videos, who often references ChampSchool in his lessons.. Jitsu talks about "maintenance throttle" while trail braking. My interpetation of this has been that maintenance throttle balances out the natural engine braking on the back tire while in a turn, therefore putting all the control gained from "trail barking" to the front tire. So now this guy from Champschool demonstrates that is a bad idea to used maintenance throttle by locking the front brake and going full throttle at the same time. If I understand correctly, he is trying to make the point that if it doesn't work under this extreme experiment, you should not be using it ever. I am completely confused at this point.

I've never heard anyone say add throttle and braking at the same time 🤔 Do the brakes and throttle ever overlap when trailing brakes off ? 5% brakes on the way down and 5% throttle on the way up

@BlindIo42

Жыл бұрын

It's a thing that's been making the rounds among some of the motorcycle vloggers in the past few months - chasing those cheap views by saying you should do the opposite of physics.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

No, we never overlap the throttle and *front* brake.

@archiewilson4943

Жыл бұрын

That motojitsu guy was talking this nonsense as long as a couple years ago. When I asked him aren't you risking a bad habit that will cause you to push the front when going fast he got all bent.

But if you ride a scooter with a centrifugal clutch, you would want to add a little throttle while slowing down, since that engages the clutch and gives you engine brake.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

No....in fact it doesn't.

“You can theorize all you want” Even so, I can’t make using the front brake against throttle make sense, seems like a bad idea

Is maintenance throttle considered off or on? For example in a corner to maintain radius?

@CanyonChasers

Жыл бұрын

Exactly correct! Its the middle - or neutral. Think of it like this. When we slow, the bike wants to turn and the radius is getting smaller. Neutral or maintenance, the radius stays the same. Acceleration and the bike stops turning and the radius gets bigger. We can use each of these positions in various parts of the corner based on what we want the motorcycle to do.

@snappycattimesten

Жыл бұрын

@@CanyonChasers than you so much for explaining. My follow up would then be “can I apply the break in middle/neutral?” Thanks again!

@CanyonChasers

Жыл бұрын

@@snappycattimesten No, that would be overlapping throttle and front brake. Remember, grip comes from weight. We have to have weight over the rear tire before we can actively accelerate and we need to have weight over the front tire before we can actively use the front brake. (Load to tire before we work the tire as ChampSchool says) This "technique" puts the bike into a really unbalanced situation where neither tire has much grip; it doesn't want to slow down and it doesn't want to turn. I've had this happen to me on track and it's absolutely terrifying.

@BlindIo42

Жыл бұрын

@@snappycattimesten If you are applying the front brake you're asking the bike to slow. If you are also applying maintenance throttle, you're asking the bike to continue on the current radius. These are two different inputs asking the chassis to do two different things. If you need to use the brake to slow, why are you also trying to maintain speed? The rider needs to decided what they want the bike to do and give it the correct input. (Unless you are my ex, in which case, give all the mixed signals you want - but that also ended crashing and burning.)

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@CanyonChasers has the answer!

rolling burnouts are fun

Am new to bike and found out that when i try to do front brake my wrist automatic rev the engine may i know how to fix this

@travisray139

Жыл бұрын

You may need to adjust the ergonomics. Have someone who is experienced in this help.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Your levers are in the wrong place (too high), your fingers are wrong on the lever (it should just be the tips), and your grip on the throttle is too far forward....or some combination of all three. We have a section on Ergonomics in Champ U. www.champu.org

@travisray139

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs Unfortunately I found out the hard way about having lever ergonomics incorrect at my last track day. I'd been tweaking position a bit and at a critical moment went for the reach... and my fingers ended up on the wrong side of the lever. This led to a fumble and a grab, which led to a locked front faster than you can even think "oh no my front is locked". Later I found one caliper was sticky as well, which likely added to the brake sensitivity. First crash in 20 years riding. It sucked, just like everyone promised. ✌🏼

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Crashes always suck. That's another absolute in motorcycle riding.

"It don't work that way." ~my riding coach 30 years ago... ex-motorcycle corp Sergeant... After I threw myself onto the ground... and then he made me get back on the bike and ride back to the truck so his nephew (my buddy) could take the next turn on it... Yup... I have to admit it and agree... "It don't work that way." ;o)

Bret Tkacs has an entire video where he explains that "blending of the controls" (front brake + throttle) is *essential* for trail braking. We need to go all the KZread motorcycle experts together so they can figure this out and then they can publish a unified message for us peons. Bret's video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/n6KJxc18cZDRorA.html

@davidearl8942

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I saw that video and it was the last one of his I will ever watch.

@beepbop6697

Жыл бұрын

@@davidearl8942 the question is: who is right? Bret is not the only one preaching this.

@davidearl8942

Жыл бұрын

Sign up for champ school and find out for yourself.

@davidearl8942

Жыл бұрын

Brets idea was that the entire bike rises as you give it throttle which is true but that also unloads the front tire and that's the last thing you want to happen in a turn when unload the front tire you lose traction

@Jleonpolanco

Жыл бұрын

I saw this same video and it had me confused too. I will say after watching many, many trail braking videos that most agree with this video while a minority say the same things Bret says. I think all this is telling me is I should go and get some formal training 👍

Does that mean: no more trail braking while cornering?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

This means no more trail braking with the throttle on because that is not trail braking. :-) Trail braking is using the brakes past turn in. We release brake pressure as we add lean angle, smoothly trailing the brakes off until we are happy with speed and direction. We always close the throttle to the brakes and once the throttle is closed, we do not add throttle until are happy with speed and direction. We do not accelerate until we can take away lean angle and see our exit. The throttle is never used against the front brake in trail braking.

@trekkydelirium-vroom5821

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs thanks a lot for reply & for explaining it clearly. I was doing it the wrong way: i was putting a small pressure on my front brake while keeping some throttle to keep entry speed in corners until i was seeing my exit to use only throttle…

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@trekkydelirium-vroom5821 That sounds terrifying. Glad you got it sorted.

Man that bicycle wheelie looked so effortless! Also, while I agree, these examples (bike and moto) aggressively grab the front brake, instantly locking the front wheel. I guess this to try to demonstrate an equivalent of "the limit", but in actual riding, no inputs will be so sudden, so this feels pretty exaggerated. I can imagine a realistic case in my head, though, where in a turn at speed and the front brake is held somewhat heavily and then the rear loses traction, it's going to lose even more traction than it normally would. So, I guess my take is you're more likely to fall in cases where you might fall anyway?

@chipspalding7594

Жыл бұрын

We try not to demo actual crashing. :-) The demonstration shows what can happen at no lean angle with maximum grip, imagine what can happen at lean angle.

@TravisTerrell

Жыл бұрын

Gotcha! That is pretty logical. Thanks!

Who on earth would do that or even worse teach that 🤷‍♂️

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, there are group and popular videos that not only teach this, but emphasize it as an "advanced technique."

@tomjones8883

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs WTF 😳 😬

@tomjones8883

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I have heard of people using/teaching a small amount of front brake against small throttle in high traction areas to ‘lift’ the bike therefore increasing potential lean angle. As opposed to trailing the rear brake causing the bike to squat and reduce potential lean angle. But I could only see the possible benefit to cruiser riders with limited (

@BlindIo42

Жыл бұрын

@@tomjones8883 How much clearance would that actually give you and at how much risk of crashing by pushing the front into a lowside? I've heard this too and it makes no sense, if your cornering clearance is that bad you are probably not putting your body where it should be to minimize lean angle. Compounding one bad technique with another is not the answer.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@tomjones8883 Check the description for more info :) Short version: you're not "lifting" the bike so much as "preventing the suspension from working."

Sure lots of brake pressure and lots of throttle is a recipe for disaster as demonstrated. But 2%of brake pressure(progressively) and 2% of throttle (degrasivly) while transitioning from acceleration to braking( or vice versa) surly is an entirely different thing. If i am not mistaken Lee Parks actually recommends this in total control as a technique to smooth out the transition between acceleration/braking. Is this not useful or even dangerous according to you?

@phoxrides

Жыл бұрын

Your answer awaits you in the description. :D “Freddie was misquoted on [overlapping throttle and front brake] and we spoke about it at length. His technique was overlapping throttle and rear brake on the peaky three-cylinder two-stroke 500, as a pre-electronic traction control. He spoke about it at schools but it was printed in a book incorrectly. "In terms of overlapping front brake and throttle, Freddie laughed and talked about 'almost' overlapping them…going from brake to throttle, and throttle to brake, in minimum time…and then he made a point of how important 'almost' is in our two-wheeled world. I hope this explains the misunderstanding that is out there". -Nick Ienatsch

@SoapsAreStupid

Жыл бұрын

I’m sure Champ School will reply and say no- do not even overlap 2% brake with 2% throttle. Of course since you’re going at slower paces, it doesn’t matter and you won’t crash. But thinks get very dangerous once you start doing 10% and 10%. Why even overlap when you could be smooth? If you were smooth to begin with, you wouldn’t need 2% on 2% to transition 2% and 2% is not a different thing. Don’t overlap throttle and brake

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

If you apply the correct technique all the time, even when you are going slow, if the pace increase and/or when the grip goes down, the correct technique will save you from a crash. The transition from riding a motorcycle incorrectly to riding one correctly is often painful and expensive brought on by necessity. It doesn't have to be that way. We are always smoot with our control inputs, but that doesn't mean we overlap them.

Isn't trail breaking this very thing?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

No. There is no throttle against the brakes in trail braking. None. Zero. Not Trail Braking.

@Aridrona

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs good thing I watched this then ...thanks for the save.

must be one confused person to want to drive ( gas on) and slow down ( brake) at the same time :D Years of driving my car to work already programmed me to either be on the brake or gas, never at the same time :D

I actually almost never brake without the clutch pulled in.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We would highly recommend leaving the clutch engaged while applying the brakes. Only pulling the clutch in for down shifts or coming to a complete stop.

@kogasoldier9379

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs okay. Is this in case emergency throttle is needed?

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

@@kogasoldier9379 - There is no reason to disconnect the driveline from the rear wheel (pulling in the clutch.) Although the front brake is the best control to slow the motorcycle, back-torque of the engine (engine braking) is a useful and effective tool in helping slow the motorcycle, by pulling in the clutch you are eliminating that force to the rear wheel and all feel for what the rear wheel is doing. Lastly, when you want to accelerate, you will have to let the clutch back out, adding unnecessary complexity and the potential for abruptness at the most crucial part of the corner. Don't do that.

@kogasoldier9379

Жыл бұрын

@@Ridelikeachampionycrs got it. Thanks for the breakdown. Definitely good for a sub.

yeah front burnout does not sound fun on a bagger thanks

Motojuitsu

When cornering trail braking and a maintenance throttle is the way to go.

@Ridelikeachampionycrs

Жыл бұрын

We do not use the throttle at all while trail braking. We never run the throttle against the brake.

Who rides like that. I think he makes up problems to talk about

@chipspalding7594

Жыл бұрын

Read the comments. Apparently lots of people ride like that and there are very popular “motorcycle training experts” that teach it. Crazy.

@literal_lee

Жыл бұрын

@@chipspalding7594 "keep the brakelight on until you see the exit"... that dude, you mean ?

@vectorphoenix5992

Жыл бұрын

It happens to me when making a left to enter the road from a freak accident. I must of hit the throttle while holding the front break or I hit the throttle and suddenly hit the front break freak out trying to stop and ended up doing a burnout in a panic and flip to the side. Bruised up and confused but still in one piece.

Who does this?🤔 bit counter intuitive. Great vid mate, always love your advice.

Wtf its a bicycle.. we talking about motorcycle s 😅