Antonini has his own way of doing everything. Sometimes it is too much (or too little) and other times it is just really fun and insightful. Either way I like listening to varied interpretations of works and when trying to keep up with your Haydn Crusade I will listen (and enjoy) such different interpreters as Fischer, Hogwood, Fey, Dorati, Antonini...whatever there is out there. Some performances I enjoy more than others but nothing I hear makes me foam and fume. When I do the research I find you are correct about most things but I wouldn't want this review to deter people from checking out Antonini's videos on the Haydn2032 KZread channel. I have found great joy in those live performances. Aspects of the Alpha product concept are cheesy for sure, but for all the pretentiousness that surrounds us in the world... this I can handle.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Fair enough.

Dear David, your comments and insight in classical music is astounding. A few weeks ago you spoke about French music and a CD set with d'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air. I went and listened to it - what an amazing work! Not only do you make my day with your wit and humour but your recommendations are spot-on! THANKS

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

You made a very entertaining video that captures without question your dislike for this disc. But it also reveals to us your biases around period practice, product packaging, and your personal taste for Haydn, if not music in general. Just as you accuse conductors and some period ensembles for taking on a mannered sound as part of their raison d’etre, reviewers/critics have their own as well. I appreciate that in part because we can rely upon one’s set of preferences/biases. If we agree with you here, we can take especial relish in your future reviews; if we dislike Antonini’s interpretation, we can avoid his other discs as well. I’d recommend you check out Peter Kivy’s book, Authenticities. For me, Antonini fits Kivy’s definition for authenticity. The take away is that all authenticity may not be musically satisfying. While I don’t agree with your ultimate assessment of the disc as “awful,” your strong response seems to match the level of GA’s strong interpretive hand. That said, keep up the entertaining videos. Discourse about this music - with whichever opinions you have - is good for all of us who have an interest in classical music.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your comments. Let me add one point, however. The comment section is full of remarks like these, many of which I delete, for the simply reason that you (and so many others) mistake my view of this single recording for my view of the musical universe as a whole, as well as Antonini's place in it. I have in fact reviewed several discs in this series--just one here, the rest on ClassicsToday.com. Those other reviews are largely very positive, despite certain reservations. Those reservations, you rightly point out, may be classed as my "biases." I'd call them "preferences" instead, but no matter. The point is those biases do NOT necessary get in the way of my enjoying the performance and recommending the recording in question. This, I think, is the difference between bias, which is perfectly fine, and prejudice, which is not. I find it very striking (and a bit depressing) that (a) despite the fact that this is just one recording, and (b) the fact that I like others by these same artists AND say so in the video AND tell viewers where to find those other reviews, and (c) despite the fact that I have been enjoying and recommending period performance Haydn for decades (and say as much in the video for purposes of comparison), and (d) despite the fact that few commenting here admit to actually having LISTENED to the disc under review in its entirety, as I did multiple times--despite all of these facts, I STILL find that commenters have no qualms making gross generalizations about me, my work, and my opinions. Whether one agrees with me or not, it's a shabby and shallow thing to do, and I have little patience for it. I realize that this is an informal medium for "off the cuff" discussion. No one is more "off the cuff" than I am, but I caution you and everyone else not to be so quick to judge my (or anyone else's) work on so little evidence, especially when the ability to do your homework before talking is so readily at hand. Anyway, I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to make this point.

I’m way more likely to listen to the things you hate because anything that makes you so passionate has me intrigued 🤣 Looking forward to this...

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

I'm just as passionate about things I like. I'm a passionate guy. But of course, knock yourself out!

@jbaldwin1970

3 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I’ll save it for later. I wish I still drank - it seems like it would be useful

@jbaldwin1970

3 жыл бұрын

Okay I listened. It was interesting. But so was hearing the Bee Gees butcher Sergeant Pepper. Not going there again.

Thank you, Dave. I'll gladly stick with my Bernstein Haydn box set. :)

Thanks, Dave, I read your earlier reviews of this series some time ago (not uniformly negative, to your credit) and have listened to three of these releases. I quite like some of the non-Haydn couplings as a good way of contextualising some of the music, but absolutely agree particularly on the question of tempo and dynamics (all those shock effect accents!). As far as I can see, Antonini is just transferring his approach to Vivaldi in his earlier discs to everything else: those were (and his Bach Brandenbergs) initially titillating because of the tempi, but then rapidly aurally wearing. I really didn't like his Handel Concerti Grossi either, for similar reasons. I'm not so bothered by questions of size of forces, and find it interesting to hear a variety of approaches here, so that the sonic questions are kept open and one can draw one's own conclusions. As you say, there are a number of good performances of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies on period instruments, with smallish forces, and I'd even rather hear Hogwood here (who I know you have reservations about in this repertoire) than Antonini. After all, when the forces in early performances were documented as large, Hogwood and McCreesh, for example, had large forces (in the Creation most notably). I had hoped the presentational aspects of these releases would get better after the first issue (dreadful!) but apparently no. As its such a big investment of money to buy Haydn's symphonies issue by issue, you confirm my gut feelings about this series....

the more annoyed you are the more fun I have listing to these is awesome sorry you take one for the team but we're loving it I think a wonderful New year's Eve present for next year would for you to review a concert by Andre Rieu! It would start my year off great! And I wouldn't have to listen to him just your rant LOL

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoy it! Thanks for commenting, but please do consider using punctuation. It's quite useful. ;)

@chadweirick67

3 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide lol I was using voice to text the lazy way but you are correct!

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

@@chadweirick67 Ah, the joys of modern technology!

Informative and entertaining (meant positively) review. Listeners wanting to sample prior performances from Antonini’s Haydn 2032 “Project” can sample many on the web and can make up their own mind. Your Classics Today review of their 1st Volume with Symphonies 49, 35 and 1 contains revealing comparative audio clips from Dorati’s and Antonini’s performance of Symphony 49. While most of Antonini’s performances are not to my taste, I did enjoy his performance of Symphony 70 which you featured in a much earlier talk (and reviewed on Classics today). Not as enjoyable as Bela Drahos’ performance which you played on your talk but more enjoyable than Roy Goodman’s (to me) blasé Hannover Band performance which I unfortunately ordered when I could not get Drahos’ performance on Naxos.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I have enjoyed previous volumes in this series, and hope to enjoy future ones. Perhaps this is a singleton mistake. I hope so. I want this series to succeed, but I can't help but wonder if it will get to the end (and if it has been fully funded).

David-do you know any of the recordings by Mogens Woldike? I grew up on his 103&104 and Creation with Vienna State Opera Orchestra.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, and they do not impress me terribly.

Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. Bravo on the bullseye. In terms of orchestral-size, what Haydn had to endure is one thing; what he wanted ideally is another. Best wishes, B

Bravo, David! I love the fact that your negative reviews are impeccably sourced and totally justified. Haydn's music is so important to me (I listen to him almost every day), and I appreciate being steered away from this desecration of his genius.

Great review. Limiting ourselves to living conductors and major orchestras (CSO, Philadelphia, BSO, BPO, SFS, LAP) just who can conduct Haydn? The last collection was by Rattle/Berlin (?) and that didn't go too well.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

No, it didn't. Bernstein was one of the great Haydn conductors, but there is one guy out there who does terrific Haydn on modern instruments, and who plays more than just the usual stuff in concert superbly well: Leonard Slatkin. I've seen him do marvelous performances of Nos. 60 "Il Distratto" and also 66, I think it was.

Just listened to Bernstein 88th from New York, don't need this!

Where can one purchase Beverly Jerold's book? I just checked on Amazon and its very expensive - about $80 including shipping from UK

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

It is what it is, unfortunately. That's why God made libraries, I guess. Or you can just shop around, as I did.

@ilyamoshkov6536

3 жыл бұрын

I have a PDF

@bucal53

3 жыл бұрын

@@ilyamoshkov6536 IIya, that is great. I'd love to read it. Jack

@ilyamoshkov6536

3 жыл бұрын

@@bucal53 what's your email?

Did you ever hear Antoninis Beethoven Symphony cycle? It is with the Kammerorchester Basel.

@MisterOE3

3 жыл бұрын

I have approx. 1/2 of it on the individually-issued CDs. Now collected in a box. Worth a listen. I liked what I heard.

Agree about the methodological approach to IPO

Oh my goodness those pictures…

Haydn as an excuse to publish a photo book. Quite the times we live at...

@raccoon3761

3 жыл бұрын

Admittedly, the album art is rather pretty. Doesn‘t make up for the lack of musical competence, though.

Terrific talk! So glad you did this and hope that some of the critics who actually think they like this sort of stuff tune in to your video.😅

I already listened to this because Haydn cycles on period instruments don't exactly grow on trees and I have to say I kind of liked this trainwreck? It's a very perverse approach to the music but it also very exciting and energetic. They should definitely stop calling their performances "historically informed" though, "Hannibal Lecter style" would be much more accurate.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

You can certainly like it if you wish, but I have to call it out for the disgrace that it represents. I have praised several discs in this series on ClassicsToday.com, but the question for me is a simple one: Can a collector do better elsewhere? The answer here is clearly "yes." I often hang on to crappy or outrageous performances just for fun, but that is a personal, rather than a professional thing.

David, you are my hero !

It’s a funny old world when it comes to judging music performances. Mr Hurwitz clearly dislikes this recording (to put it mildly) and gave good reasons for doing so and I see no reason to take issue with him. So, you can imagine my astonishment when I see that the latest issue of the BBC Music magazine gives this very same recording a five star review!!! I notice they seem to have a habit of doing this. It’s almost as if they have become your arch nemesis without realising it. I look forward to your reviews of the latest Nelsons Bruckner cycle (2 & 8) I notice that that’s had a good review in another publication in the UK.....

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

It doesn't astonish me at all.

@jankucera8180

2 жыл бұрын

I have not read the BBC Music review (I do not subscribe to that magazine) but I heard Mr Hurwitz not just rant, but, more importantly, logically and factually argue! Considering this, it is not so easy to disagree with him...

Love your justifiable rants; I don't have anyone to listen to my ranting because there's only my wife around, and she won't listen to me.

I love this CD. The ‘concept album’ with arty-farty booklet and bells and whistles is old fashioned - who is still buying physical CD’s? - but i find the music thoroughly enjoyable.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

I respect the fact that you love the CD. Now get to really love the music and see how much you still love it down the road!

One of my music streaming services had the Antonini recording available, so I checked out the opening of the "Farewell" just out of curiosity. If i didn't know the symphony I would have assumed the main theme was in the winds and the actual theme (yes, almost inaudible in the first presentation) was the accompaniment. Was this an interpretative decision ("Who wants to listen to those boring old melodies, anyway?") or was it a by-product of the anemic string section? Either way, completely wrong-headed. I'm listening to Pinnock right now as a kind of aural purgative.

Not only the too fast tempo, also the annoying habit of stressing every 1st beat is typical of most "authentic" performances. As if to please the rock and roll public. The photo book is indeed ridiculous, arty farty nonsense. Pictures to explain the concept farewell haha...when Antonini gets to the symphony The Bear will we get pictures of the namesake animals?

Bravo! My thoughts entirely.

To hell with those nonsensical “concept” albums. Alongside concept albums, there’s another idiotic trend in the recording industry: albums programmed as recitals. Only one big, important piece and lots of smaller, lighter filler pieces orbiting it. The recent Daniel Hope album playing Schnittke is a good example. The Violin Sonata no. 1 is a masterpiece. It spans for around 20 minutes. So the album is filled by 40 minute of unimportant small pieces, like the insipid Suite in Old Style which could be written by absolutely anyone. It’s not a recital, there’s no happy intermission to sell sparkling wine. It’s a freaking album. Why on earth one thought it would be reasonable to spend precious studio time with... fillers? Y’all know, there are three violin sonatas by Schnittke to record...

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Very true! It would be lovely if the "concept" was a good music program.

David, please tell us what you really think. Stop holding back.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

I know, I've got to work on coming out of my shell.

A brilliant review and educational to boot. The only problem is that by making these reviews you are encouraging people (maybe stupid people like me) to actually track down and listen to these performances!!! I see it is available on at least one of the streaming services and while I don't understand how their business model works it is probable that my listening to it will actually contribute to the success of these abominations. On a more serious note. We now have great recordings of all Haydn's symphonies and all the other standard classical repertoire. Any new performance is going to have to try and bring something new to the table otherwise what is the point of making it at all. So even if a conductor were to bring out a really superb 10/10 recording of a Haydn symphony would the world be any richer for it?

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Well, yes. I think so.

The energy and expense they're putting into the booklet (as ridiculous as it is) seems kind of bizarre when you consider how many people don't even buy physical product anymore. The number of people buying physical product is going to continue to shrink between now and 2032 if this project actually makes it that far. For anybody who is in the market for a complete set of Haydn symphonies, I noticed the Adam Fischer set is on sale for less than $60 including shipping at the online retail behemoth.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know about that. If vinyl LPs can make a comeback as a luxury product then anything is possible. These are obviously not intended for a mass audience.

@ftumschk

3 жыл бұрын

If you're not averse to downloads, 7digital's UK website has the Fischer set for £9.99 (FLAC) or £8.49 (320 kbps MP3 or M4A)

@ThreadBomb

3 жыл бұрын

A number of European labels use their packaging as a way to promote contemporary visual artists. And why not? The music is still on the disc.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThreadBomb But you're paying for it. If it's a free promotion then fine, but not on my dime.

Just when you thought things couldn't possibly get any more pretentious. They just should have done a photo exhibition and left Haydn alone. The best "Farewells" in my opinion: Pinnock, Orpheus Chamber Orchestra and Dorati!

Oy. I can’t wait to not listen to this. There are already so many great Haydn cycles and singleton recordings on the market, this seems profoundly unnecessary. As you correctly point out, Haydn, and most composers prior to the 20th-century, used small forces out of necessity and not desire. Typically, they would have also preferred the most advanced instrumental technology as well. That doesn’t mean all historically-informed performances are wrong, but they are wrong when they insist self-righteously that is the ONLY way to do do things.

I've never listened to an Antonini's Haydn's symphony and I'm not going to. I love the Antal Dorati Haydn set, but I love Dennis Russell Davies haydn's set as well (with his broad tempi). What don't you like Dennis Russell Davies's set? please, don't just say that IT SUCKS!

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

It is dull, undramatic, unfocused, antiseptic, expressionless, gray in sonority, humorless (a crime in Haydn), charmless, passionless...shall I go on?

@Xersex2009

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Still, I liked it! I really loved the large tempos and the large orchestra.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

@@Xersex2009 That's fine. It's your choice.

@vilebrequin6923

Жыл бұрын

@@Xersex2009 give me Maertzendorfer any day of the week!

Only a generation raised on Rock and Roll could possibly think that period instrument performance actually sounds good. Oh well, at least the rest of us have Dorati.

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it's the classical equivalent of adding distortion to the tone of an electric guitar.

@neptune511

3 жыл бұрын

There is also a generation raised on period instrument performance....