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@corneliusantonius3108

8 күн бұрын

Nightwish was so big even the Premier of Finland itselfs lamanated about why they could not get back toghether again.

When you look at the backstory, it comes down to Tarja hating the tour bus and the band dragging on tours as long as possible, traveling on the bus, doing as many shows as possible in whatever venue they were welcome in. The band did not want to change the way touring to airplanes and stadiums. For Tarja living on the tour bus (with drinking, smoking, loud partying people) just was not option. It was not how she wanted to spend her live. From that point it all just was cause and effect, where she had decided she would need to create her own carrier, because the band was not going to change their ways. She gave notice and was no longer committed to the band. She was no longer pulling her weight, while at the same time making demands., annoying the rest of the band. I think the letter should have skipped the anger and resentment. A simple "Thank you for all you gave us, but we grew too far apart." would have sufficed.

Bottom line is that NightWish IS Tuomas. It is HIS baby!

@howlandgrowl

8 күн бұрын

And his Ego!

@yerviniansamvel

8 күн бұрын

Nightiwsh is Tuomas and Emppu

@Tedger

8 күн бұрын

Naturally? ​@@howlandgrowl

@clivematthews5296

8 күн бұрын

​@@howlandgrowlsadly two large egos at play and only one talent that was committed to Nightwish.

@richardgoddard37

8 күн бұрын

The straw that broke the camel's back was Marko refusing to work with Tarja any more, but Tuomas took the blame for a band decision. A storm in a teacup compared to Fleetwood Mac's story though...

Poet and the pendulum is how Toumas felt after everything was said and done. The story behind the song is very interesting, just be ready to shed a few tears afterwards, I did.

Tuomas and Marko responded with a song, Listen to BYE BYE Beautiful, sung by the new singer Annette Olsen!!!

@amygoodson-catlady

8 күн бұрын

It's a banger! Very fun!

@christorn8499

7 күн бұрын

NW first angry song is Master passion greed The one responding is Tarja with the songs "Enough" and maybe "I walk alone"..! Anette Ingegerd Olsson, känd som Anette Olzon, never Olsen in any way or form..!

@-WhiteWolf_

7 күн бұрын

@@christorn8499 And Diva

So many things changed since then. Tarja's attitude went along with Marcelo's way of thinking at the time. She is a very humble person (I know she is as I toured with her) to be fair and with her solo career she works her ass off since then every day. Also, since then many of them are friends again (Marko and Tarja for example) and also, Floor is Tarja's friend. It was a weird time, many suspected more feelings from Tuomas's side towards Tarja and so on. If you listen to more songs you will understand more. Tuomas is also a very humble person by the way.

@klauskriegbaum2795

8 күн бұрын

I think country would fit her better than metal, the way she responded gives me "Stand By Your Man" vibes. OK, I don´t know her personally, but that is what I think of her, and it does not interest me, that she is befriended with Fkoor and Marko, I would not trust her.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

@@klauskriegbaum2795I trust her more than Toumas.

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

No todo lo que está en esa carta es real el mismo Tuomas lo dijo en entrevistas busquen está aquí en KZread no saquen conclusiones abdurdas sin tener el conocimiento exacto eso es tonto

I mostly agree with your assessment and felt the same as you when I first read them. Just from many years of gathering little tidbits here and there, what I can add is. As you mention Tuomas made it an open letter to avoid all the turbulence and rumours that would explode for everyone if he didn't. Could you imagine what would happen if they just released a statement "Tarja is no longer in the band". The truth would eventually come out anyways so might as well be upfront about it. I loved Tarja and still do but in the end her goal was to have a solo career and that is what she achieved. Don't let hers or the bands action spoil great music. They are also all fantastic people. All of us do and say dumb things, especially when we are young. Floor eventually joining the band was a meant to be thing and she is now my favourite vocalist of all time. There's a lot of history and drama which adds to the intrigue but again, don't let any of it spoil the amazing music and performances regardless of which singer you are watching.

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

Exacto Tuomas nunca quiso aceptar que Tarja había renunciado se hizo su cuento de fantasía monstruosa creando una carta abierta que luego de años declare de ello que fue un error y que no todo es real osea inmadurez más celos más dolor más despecho nació la carta abierta

I'm glad you read the letters, that will help you understand the situation better. There were obviously tensions in the band accumulated over time, and the fact that Tarja interposed her manager and husband (Marcelo) between her and the band's management, to negotiate for her (that is, implicitly against the others) contributed to the aggravation the conflict. In any scenario, the situation would have led to a breakup. You also noticed, as I did, that Tarja did not actually address the accusations of the others in her open letter. Some say that the band members were encouraged to make the public gesture, with the idea that they will polarize public attention, as a kind of guerilla PR. I don't know exactly whether it was like that or not, but clearly they made a mistake specific to the impetuousness of their age at that time, because in this way their private matters became the subject of public discussion, in which everyone felt entitled to have an opinion. It was the media scandal of the year in Finland. Obviously, many fans focused on the inelegantness of the gesture, that is, a group of men attacking a defenseless woman, and reacted emotionally accordingly, putting Tuomas and the other members of the band against the wall. Tuomas was the most attacked of all, being seen as the leader of Nightwish. Yes, this concert from October 21, 2005 in Helsinki was the last of the "Once" (2004) album promotion tour. And indeed, in their next album, "Dark Passion Play" (2007), 3 of the songs were related to this event: "Bye, Bye, Beautiful" (dedicated to Tarja), "Master Passion Greed" (dedicated to Marcelo) and "The Poet And The Pendulum" (addressed to the backlash received after Tarja's public dismissal)

@howlandgrowl

8 күн бұрын

So very well explained, Thank you.

@mariogansbeke

8 күн бұрын

"Tarja did not actually address the accusations". No she didn't, not one explanation, just playing the innocent victim of it all. Sad. Why didn't she answer why she never wanted to travel together, why she almost never showed up at rehearsals, ...

@christomashofski9160

7 күн бұрын

My impression of why they did the public letter (which I thought was an approach that lacked professional courtesy) was that Tuomas concluded that she was so loved by the loyal fanbase as something unique and new in the industry that she could not be replaced. I imagine that he feared it would surely be the end of the band and of the jobs/careers of all the other support people involved for whom he felt a deep responsibility. I further conclude that, because of this fear, it would be better for all in the long run to make public the sound and concrete reasons behind the dismissal rather than make it appear as a total mystery. We still don't know for sure any of the personal stuff that was surely going on behind the scenes to compound the situation. That has remained officially private, as it should be.

@gabriel.bardac

7 күн бұрын

@@christomashofski9160 Maybe Tuomas wanted to give a public signal that the separation is final, so that any negotiations with "Tarja's team" are no longer possible. He blocked the possibility of a compromise, consciously assuming the risk of being subjected to public opprobrium. Cutting the Gordian knot.

@christomashofski9160

7 күн бұрын

@@gabriel.bardac That too, is a part of what I was thinking.

(Master Passion Greed) is a song wrote by Tuomas & Marco about Marchello . Note: there is no live of this only studio recording and it was a very angry (Heavy) song, they never played it live and never will

After these letters there is a straight road to Master Passion Greed - a hardest NW song of all times, a diss on Marcelo, then Bye Bye Beautiful - a musical farewell to Tarja, and a Poet and the Pendulum, a mourn of Tuomas and all the band because of all this happened. Tarja has her answer too - a song Until my last breath.

@tuuli4002

8 күн бұрын

Also Tarja's songs Diva and Enough. Now Tarja has officially confirmed that Diva is about her NW times.

IMHO, Tarja's firing was done in just about the most ham-handed way possible. In the band's defense, I can only point out that they are musicians, not HR experts. They had no experience in this sort of thing, and didn't really know how to go about it. A better solution would have been to do what other bands (the Rolling Stones, for example) did in similar situations. They could have told Tarja that she was out, and asked her how she wanted to handle it. Probable scenario: Tarja and the band issue a joint statement saying that she is leaving the band to pursue a solo career, and that she is thankful for the opportunities that Nightwish has given her, and wishes them success with a new vocalist. The band says that they are sorry to lose her, but will carry on, and wish her well in her future endeavors, yadda, yadda, yadda. That approach would have eliminated 99% of the drama. But then we wouldn't have "The Poet and the Pendulum" to marvel to and enjoy.

@2beans_and_a_bug

7 күн бұрын

Yes, so very true. And also, I believe they were all still in there 20's ? So, while they were adults, yes, they were very young adults, and maybe not the most mature in handling this kind of adversity. I'm sure if they could have a do over they would. But in the end, you're right, the breakup gave us some incredibly good music after that for years! Peace!

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

Tarja no fue expulsada ella ya había renunciado fue lo que le dijo en el avión

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

Lean el libro de Tuomas del porque estaba tan enojado en el avión😂😂😂😂 Tarja le renunció dejo la banda le puso plazo para buscar vocalista vean la entrevista a Tarja donde estaba llorando contando lo sucedido ella hizo una rueda de prensa y lo dijo claro que ya había renunciado a la banda solo tenía que terminar la gira y el último álbum pero Tuomas no acepto la renuncia y Tarja le dijo que ella podría dejar la banda si quisiera 1 día antes sin que se dieran cuenta esa palabra le dolió a Tuomas entonces agarro el lápiz y empezó a escribir la carta ya varias semanas tenían planeado dejar mal a Tarja públicamente es como la venganza de Tuomas contra Tarja por haber renunciado todos sabían de esa carta menos ella después del shows en Helsinki Finlandia le dieron la carta pero le dijeron que debía abrir al día siguiente Tarja en ese concierto Final de una era estaba ardiendo de Fiebre tenía influenza pero aún así canto las 18 canciones dejando el alma sin saber que Tuomas se vengaria de ella con la carta pública hay una canción de Tarja redactando este hecho es desgarrador , Tarja no fue expulsada ella renunció y la desvincularon o despidieron con una carta abierta pública el peor error de Tuomas Holopainen

Tuomas has said he is not good at making difficult decisions. I think that was the case with firing Tarja as well. Leading Marko to say: "Either she goes or I'll go. He was tired of going back and forth. A decision had to be made already. Here's a brand new 5 minute clip from an interview of Marko by Savon Sanomat, a newspaper in Savo district where Marko is originally from: "Marko Hietala on reconnecting with Tarja Turunen", first in 2017, and recently they toured together and Marko released the new song LEFT on MARS featuring Tarja. Link for the interview: m.kzread.info/dash/bejne/lJ-NpsqQirrKgM4.html&pp=ygUbbWFya28gaGlldGFsYSBzYXZvbiBzYW5vbWF0 I have not heard Emppu saying much of anything about the whole thing. Maybe he has, but I just haven't heard or read. It must have been tough for him, he seems to be the kind of guy who wants everybody to get along and be happy. I'm not necesserily asking for a reaction video, but watch the Song "Ever Dream" from this End of an Era concert/DVD, to see how emotional Tuomas gets when the soft intro ends. They even take a short pause before the song continues. Did Tuomas write this song about Tarja? Some say yes, some say no.

I'm sure you want to hear Tarja's viewpoint, so watch on youtube the 10 min clipse of Tarja's press conference after the open letter. You'll find it by:. "Tarja Turunen press conf (with subtitles)/ post NW breakup"

At the time of this, mid 2000's Nightwish were one of Finland's biggest assets, along with companies like Nokia. Even the Finnish Government had their say on the issue. The album that followed, "Dark passion Play" the first with Anette is the album where Tuomas addresses all these issues. Time has come, you are now ready for "Poet and the pendulum"

Yes, Tarja was sick during End of an Era. That was the last concert of their tour but it was still a special concert. It was names End of an Era later on. At the end of that concert Tarja got the letter. No matter what was said or what happened, I don't think it was a right thing to fire someone through an open letter..... Tarja found out that she got fired from the band at the same time as EVERYONE else. I think she should have given the chance to come to terms with it in some sense before they made it public. But that is how I feel. It is very difficult to say what is true of that and what is more coloured. Both sides are saying different things. In a way, I believe both sides. There are things I believe in both of their stories and things that I don't really believe. I believe both sides are to blame for this mess, they all made mistakes. Tarja goes through more about the accusations in the press conference. I recommend reacting to it too.

@tuuli4002

8 күн бұрын

A link to the press conference. It's not the full thing but the part where Tarja talks about NW. It's in Finnish but it has subtitles. kzread.info/dash/bejne/gY2f0ZumqLiwlbw.htmlsi=FD7XqX8h_6TDIwLx And I want to add something: I don't believe that either one, Tuomas or Tarja, is good or bad. They both just were in a very difficult situation. Plus people change, they are not the same persons they were 20 years ago.... and wounds heal.

@corneliusantonius3108

8 күн бұрын

Maybe she was sick physically because she was doungg things harnfull to her soul.

@jcheimi4238

8 күн бұрын

​@@corneliusantonius3108medication

The main problem wasn't the letter, she received a copy after the last concert. What was a little unprofessional was publishing this letter in order to shame her. They'd have been better off with a public press release that said "We want to thank Tarja for her years with Nightwish. We will now part ways and we wish Tarja well on her future endeavors. Nightwish will choose a new singer shortly." Publishing the letter went sideways fast for the band, for Tarja, and especially Tuomas. He did learn to never do this again though. When Anette was fired there was no shaming letter. The song "Master, Passion, Greed" (no video except where someone created a lyric video and no live performance ever) was about Marcelo. "Bye, Bye, Beautiful" reflects what the letter said and was aimed at Tarja. Both these songs were on the Dark Passion Play album. Tarja herself released a song called "Enough" in response.

@imrehundertwasser7094

6 күн бұрын

AFAIK Anette wasn't "fired", she left the band herself, in the middle of a tour. She wouldn't have concluded that tour anyway (because she was pregnant and the tour went past the date she was due), so the band would have needed to find a replacement for the rest of the tour anyway. It just happened much earlier and more rapid because of Annette's departure. Tarja wasn't "fired" as well btw, in legal terms she wasn't a part of the band (or the legal construct behind it) from what I read, so the Nightwish "company" simply chose not to work with her anymore. Which would have happened anyway a year or two later.

This was like 20 years ago, it's left behind.... No one involved in this feels like this anymore.

@make_m_finland

6 күн бұрын

I agree... I am sure that Most of fans nowdays (and the band and Tarja) feels that at the end that was win-win situation

My old bandmate was touring with his band in 2004 in U.S.A. and they happened to play in the same city on a same date with Nightwish. After their concert they went to see the NW concert as it was a few hours later and after that of course went to the backstage to visit the guys. Surprisingly, Tarja wasn't at the backstage and when the guys asked for her, Nightwish guys just told them that her husband probably took her somewhere. So really, the band hadn't seen their singer for a year except on a stage. I have talked to Tuomas a couple of times (a lot) younger, when we were playing on same concerts (not with Nightwish) and I personally felt that he is probably the most honest guy ever.

Marcello had the "gift of the gab" as we call it in the UK. He presents himself and Tarja in better light than they deserve. He did a lot of dissing the band members in public.

Love that you took the time to go through these letters. I believe that Tuomas and the band (but especially Tuomas); felt the division between the fans and felt like "everyone hated him". Tuomas fell into a deep depression, and had to go home to Mom and Dad; to "recharge". He wrote the "song/music piece" : THE POET AND THE PENDULUM , to basicly "kill himself in the song", to work through the pain. It seems like, you're ready for "The Poet And The Pendulum". Make sure you've got the closed captioning on; and a Tissue box close by. The song begins with "THE END, and ends with "THE BEGINNING". IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL AND BRILLIANT! ❤

@damienmaynard8892

8 күн бұрын

THIS!!!!!!

@clivematthews5296

8 күн бұрын

But it must be Floor at Wembley 2015.

@pietkeizer5279

7 күн бұрын

Time heals wounds, they say. The letter is almost 20 years ago. Now I have tickets for Tarja and Marco's concert next September. That's how it should be in life.

@HelMut3103

7 күн бұрын

Poor boy Tuomas…🙄 What about Tarja.? She was devastated and threatened by many people, so she had to leave Finland. All because of this awful letter from a selfish jealous boy.. And to tell Tarja to read it next day, and put it online the same evening. So everyone could read it before Tarja did… That’s how Tuomas is..

I think Tuomas handled this situation totally wrong. He should’ve come public with this letter, although I kind of understand why he did. Very painful situation for all of them.

The song "Bye, Bye Beautiful" ...kzread.info/dash/bejne/moiYyrqxqLq4ddI.html was written about her...the song "Master Passion Greed" was written about her husband... kzread.info/dash/bejne/dnWquKRxpMWzebw.html...this may be the heaviest Nightwish song on record! This is what you get when you piss off Tuomas!!!

@FromG2eminor

8 күн бұрын

Been addicted to MPG lately. It's so good!

@michaelmcgilvray8606

8 күн бұрын

@@FromG2eminor It's better than good!!! They went all out, Marco kills it on vocals and at the end when the Orchestra and Choir kick in...holy crap!!!

@FromG2eminor

8 күн бұрын

@@michaelmcgilvray8606 First time I heard it I wasn't sure about. But the more I listened the more I loved it and yes, especially the end part. I love Bye, Bye Beautiful too!

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

Y tiene respuesta de Tarja con la canción Until my last Breath y I Wak Alone digno de reaccionar recomiendo los videos oficiales aunque ambos en vivo es apocalíptico tanto I Wak Alone y Until my last Breath en vivo desde el Teatro Círculo de Rosario Argentina año 2012 son tan épicos tan dignos de reaccionar 🌹🤘🏻

Two sides to every story.

I’m not sure why people insist you have to read these in order to understand The Poet and the Pendulum. The song is about the depression Tuomas felt after getting a huge backlash from fans about Tarja’s dismissal, not about anything in the letters. But yes, the band gave her the letter after the End of an Era concert, which was the last show of the tour.

im so excited for your poet and the pendulum video now that you read the lettersssss

If they didn't have an open letter how would the fans or there own country people know. It made the media, it made the papers even their own government mentioned something that's how big Nightwish is. So Tarja being asked to leave was that big of a deal. So to answer questions and clear the air Tuomas must of felt he had to let them know. Tuomas had high feeling for Tarja and it pained him to let her go as they where school friends and she was the original when forming the band. Marcelo made out Tuomas was in love with Tarja and that started rumours which others added to. The truth is Tuomas individualized what Nightwish is and wrote a lot of his emotions into the music he done this with his friend Tarja in mind so in a way she became part of what Nightwish is or was as her journey ended. Fear of fan retaliation and the fact Nightwish was like a lifeline for Tuomas if the music was over so he felt his life was. So Poet and the pendulum was going to be his suicide song but fortunately he only died in the song not for real. I ofter thought it strange though using the New singer Anette to sing an upsetting song Bye Bye Beautiful about Tarja and his song Dark passion play an angry song towards Marcelo?. But all this is now in the past.

Communication is The Universal Solvent.

@esttelavidalinarolonmontie5431

7 күн бұрын

Y el respeto , Tuomas jamás respeto a Tarja ni en sus letras ni en sus deseos carnales y para variar ese hecho ocurrido en México donde Tarja fue abusada sexualmente Tuomas nunca hizo nada nunca tuvo compasión de Tarja en conclusión después de haber recaudado datos por años tengo la conclusión de que la verdadera Diva de esta historia siempre fue Tuomas Holopainen el egoísta poeta enamorado obsesionado y rechazado 😌

You are now wrapping your head around this episode. Now you are ready for the The PnP. It was right after the final show of the tour. Several of the songs on the "Dark Passion Play" record are all about this incident and the aftermath of the breakup.

The fact that even 20 years later so many people base their opinion of Tarja on the bs of that open letter is the worst part of it all. She doesn't deserve the hate. I think they were destined to go their separate ways because they didn't want the same things, and that's not a bad thing. Both the band and Tarja in her solo career have done just fine without each other. But how it was handled was brutal and cruel and it's hard to have a good opinion about the people involved with releasing that letter. Only Marko has publicly expressed regret and made amends with Tarja and for it and for that I respect him.

@TheRealRedAce

7 күн бұрын

Tarja was HARDLY an innocent in this affair! As for her husband.....Master Passion Greed!

Oh... here is the letters :) you got it pretty much right, They gave the letter directly after the last show that ended that world tour. so it was the final thing the did together (at that point). Tarja has been singing with Floor and Marco after this happened.

The thing to remember is that this is the culmination of (effectively) a messy divorce; nobody was thinking clearly, and they were lashing out though pain. (In particular I don't believe anything Tuomas says about Marcelo, but I don't believe anything Marcelo says about Tuomas either.) For instance, they complain about her flying instead of travelling with the band - but these were punishing tours, she was getting sick, and a vocalist's instrument is particularly vulnerable to illness (Jukka was also suffering, but at least it didn't affect his drumkit). She could travel on a bus with four guys she didn't get on with any more, at least one of whom had a serious problem with drink at the time, and get hardly any sleep before the next gig; or she could fly with the man she loved and rest up. She sees it as the sensible thing, her bandmates see it as her being a diva. They are right about what happened, but draw the wrong inference. They were better off apart, it's only a shame it was handled so badly; but that's often the nature of divorces, unfortunately.

@elvwood

7 күн бұрын

Note each side recorded three songs about this. Nightwish: _Master_ _Passion_ _Greed_ is pure bile poured on Marcelo; it was never played live, for which I am grateful, but I wish it hadn't been on the album either, because it's fantastic musically but I don't think such personal attacks are appropriate and they could have reused the music. _Bye_ _Bye_ _Beautiful_ was them telling Tarja how she was wrong, and it was retired from the live set quite quickly. It's borderline. _The_ _Poet_ _and_ _the_ _Pendulum_ was about Tuomas' feelings faced with the backlash from the firing. Because it's about him I have no trouble with it, and it's a masterpiece. It doesn't get played these days because it's a painful reminder of sad times when they've already moved on, not because it's inappropriate. Tarja: _I_ _Walk_ _Alone_ was her first response, about her feelings. It's slightly attacky, but less than _BBB._ _Enough_ feels like her response to the publishing of the three Nightwish songs, though it was probably written before they came out. You can really feel her pain and anger in this one, but it feels justified. It's my favourite of her three. _Diva_ was a later release, but clearly on the same topic. It feels like going back to a well that should have been abandoned - perhaps she should have listened to the title of the previous one? Still, there's symmetry to having three on each side. I often think it would be good if reactors gave Tarja's songs as much of a chance as Nightwish's.

Tarja never attacked the band members. As much as many adhere to the letter, Tarja is not as the letter says. What the letter calls Diva's attitude was Tarja asking to go to shows by plane so she could preserve her voice and rest, in addition to asking for a separate dressing room so she could change her clothes and get ready, as just like the band's documentaries in At the time they show, the boys were always drinking and smoking on the bus and in the dressing room. Tarja had already announced to NW her desire to pursue a solo career, they had agreed to record another album with the band and give time to announce her departure. Ultimately, everyone involved has their reasons. Tarja is an incredible human being, humble and treats her fans and band members from her solo career very well. After Marko left NW, he asked Tarja for forgiveness, they rekindled their friendship and Marko is participating in Tarja's tour.

I think most people agree now that indeed the letter by Tuomas et al. should not have been an open letter. You don't divorce someone in an open letter explaining your grievances to everybody. But remember the time this took place. 2005 is a long time ago and the internet did not play such a significant role yet.

@damienmaynard8892

8 күн бұрын

Internet did cause problems for the album "Wishmaster"!

@andrelglinnenbank2856

8 күн бұрын

@@damienmaynard8892 I didn't know that

@Thesizo88

4 күн бұрын

@@damienmaynard8892 What do you mean about WM album?

@damienmaynard8892

3 күн бұрын

@@Thesizo88 the music was leaked before the official release, causing it to be released earlier than planned.

When you do the poet and the pendulum choose the one with lyrics

Good thing: its past. And furthermore Floor Jansen is not involved in this, as she joined Nightwish after Anette. But Tuomas kept thinking about this and had to free his mind - so he created the album "Dark Passion Play" which also consists of "Poem and the Pendulum" and "Master Passion Greed". This album was designed for Anette, but almost every song was sung by Floor, too.

@randomman4938

8 күн бұрын

In fact, Floor and Tarja are friends, and my understanding is that Floor even reached out to Tarja before joining Nightwish, to make sure she was cool with it.

@clivematthews5296

8 күн бұрын

And when you listen to The Poet and the Pendulum, please please please don't listen to Anette butchering it live or even in the studio. It has to be Floor at Wembley 2015.

@dianabryson5264

8 күн бұрын

@@clivematthews5296 I do agree that Floor`s vocal`s are the best but I think that Anette is underestimated as a singer.

@clivematthews5296

8 күн бұрын

@@dianabryson5264 I have tried to listen to her live and she rarely staysbin tune. Her studio work is fine but for me is just a average pop singer.

@elvwood

7 күн бұрын

Actually, DPP mostly wasn't designed for Anette - much of it was recorded before she was even hired. The only album designed around her voice was Imaginaerum.

Ooh i love that you take the time and study all of history of Nightwish. ❤ Thank you.🙏 Document do the setlist in 48h is sooo good. I hope you have time to wacth that too.🥰 It's about the start of Floor to begame a singer for Nightwish. And do The Poet and the pendelum after that.😍 I recoment Tampere version, because of the fireworks. 😍😍😍

Most of us do silly things when we are young, especially when you are sensitive and emotional vulnerable people like a lot of great artists are. This happened about 20 years ago and much has changed since then. It is good to know the past to understand for example some of the songs Tuomas has written but the band members of 2005 left this past behind and there no longer is any anger between Tarja and the band members of that time. Marko now is on stage together with Tarja, Tarja and Floor are good friends (she had nothing to do with this) and even Tuomas said in an interview that this is the past and he no longer feels any anger. In 2005 it must have been very hard for him to learn that his longtime friend (since school) wanted to leave Nightwish after the next album; also he and Marcello (Tarja's husband and manager) obviously had very different ideas about Tarja's career and how the band should behave.

Only thing that I'd like to add is that even Tuomas nowadays says that it could have been handled better. All of this is in the past, Marko and Tarja even have a song together now. I'm really glad we're over this drama and can just enjoy their music in peace 😊

Some awsome recommandations for you to try: "Lara Fabian - J'Taime" "Lovebites - Holy War" "Dimash Kudaibergen - S.O.S." "Diana Ankudinova - Can't help falling in love" "Epica - Consign to oblivion" "Tina S (guitar) / Junna (drums) - Through the fire and flames" "Voiceplay - little mermaid medley" "Pentatonix - 90ies medley"i can asure you each of them are a journy for a lifetime

Im surely on Tuomas, and the bands side here, i also think the letter should be public, to give the story to the fans, however i think for a open letter its very detailed in some lines, and maybe its to long letter for being such, anyway Tarja was telling the band she wanted solo careeer at some point, and was diva like after meeting with Marcello, i understand that a marrige can take up some time, but a band like Nightwish, it just dosent work to cancel, and not show up, unless its a band decision to do so.. when you act like that, and at same time made it quite clear to band you might go anyway someday..well

Two things that stood out most in Tarja's letter - first, right at the beginning, she refers to 'my fans' rather than Nightwish fans or 'the' fans. Secondly, she seems to have been instinctively defensive to the fact that her husband was really the issue - I suppose love is blind, but her loyalty to her husband was at the expense of the band and the fans and that seems to have been a point that eluded her. On your wondering why they asked her to open the letter the following day, I may be wrong, but I suspect that they wanted to let her enjoy the aftermath of the concert rather than prick that bubble in the middle of the post-concert high.

They released this online right after. It was an attempt to quell rumors as to what happened. However, Tuomas was highly criticized, even though this supposedly came from all four members of the band at the time. He lost friends, and took the criticism very hard. He was grieving the loss of his muse (if not more), and then bombarded with negative public response. He retreating to his family’s home with his mother and father. Words from his supportive mother inspired him to continue and is much of the final movement of Poet and the Pendulum. The album Dark Passion Play was the first without Tarja, and was mostly written before they decided upon the next singer, whom Tuomas wanted to be very different from Tarja. The song Bye Bye Beautiful is directed to Tarja. Master Passion Greed, directed at Tarja’s husband, a heavy song for Nightwish, the only with an explicative, and has never been performed live. The masterpiece, The Poet and the Pendulum, is insight into what Tuomas went through. Feeling that he experienced a death of sorts. It is his cathartic composition that he needed to move forward. Floor takes it to another level, only performed 20 times with Floor. You are well prepared. I would still recommend Dead Boys Poem, Floor in Argentina, and maybe Bye Bye Beautiful and Master passion Greed first. Enjoy. We are all looking forward to watching . NWA N.Tx div

Now watch the Tarja, press conference. About this 😊

both parties made mistakes.. both parties have grown significantly. they were very young. we can forgive

I wonder if the "End of an Era" title was created _after_ the concert had been recorded and the band split happened. The title is _so_ appropriate. I know that Floor refers to the Tampere 2015 show as part of the "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" (her first studio album) world tour, yet the DVD set that includes the recording of that show is titled "Vehicle of Spirit". The DVD for Wacken 2013 show, near the end of the Imaginaerum tour, is titled "Showtime, Storytime". Any of those names could have been picked beforehand. But they could also have been picked after. Marketing departments...

fun fact: during the Wacken show Marko made a joke about recording a dvd of a concert and the bands custom to write an open letter (before Romanticide😂😂😂😂)

@gabriel.bardac

8 күн бұрын

Yes, Marco and his well-known dark humor...

@Mischnikvideos

8 күн бұрын

She wasn't even an official member at the time. She would have been fired before the announcement... that would have been quick 🙂

@HWaii

8 күн бұрын

I often heard it, but never made the connection until now! 😮

Personal stuff like this should never have been made public. But for someone uninvolved like me, it has no impact on what I feel about their music, which is fantastic. The breakup even yielded some of their best stuff (Bye Bye Beautiful, Master Passion Greed and Poet and the Pendulum), which wouldn't exist otherwise.

I think the open letter was a mistake, but I do belive that Tuomas is more sincerely whit his letter. Just seeing NW going on, you can see this. He is not there for the money. Well, Tarja is the one whos been in the TV shows and stuff here in Finland.Offiesly, she needs to be famous. And… I think so does Marko. Unfortunetly…

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

Toumas wasn’t in it for the money lol. Bands make the majority of their money from touring. That’s all Toumas wanted to do. Never ending touring, which is bad for any vocalist long term. Tarja wanting to tour less, meant less money in Toumas’s pocket. That’s his problem. That’s why he fired Annette when she got sick.

listen to Floor's first group Revamp

In 2020 Marko left nightwish, him & Tarja are touring this year..

There's a documentary called A Day Before Tomorrow that follows Nightwish in the days leading up to the last concert with Tarja. It's an interesting watch for those who are interested in the band but it's also kinda awkward, especially when you know how things were at the time.

In 2009 Tarja released the single "Enough" as a reaction on Tuomas as a person 🙂 with lyrics on screen: kzread.info/dash/bejne/aWalysGKYJi5orA.htmlsi=CidcoM3ZE8WAxK3E

I believe that you are now ready for the ultimate tear-jerker song that will make everyone cry. You know Floors voice. You know Tarja's voice, you now know the background. Then all I can say is "Let the tears flow. I guarantee you that you have never been so captivated by a song. The emotion and soul with which Floor sings it here alone, even though she had nothing to do with the whole backstory. But as I've already written, you should definitely listen to it with subtitles so that you understand the lyrics. LG from Germany

You're spot on. But time has sealed some wounds and Marco have already joined Tarja on several occasions on stage. But the facts still stand - that was how Tuomas and the other band members felt. Take that aside and listen to Tarja's era for the music, Anette era for the music and Floor era for the music and put all other things aside. Tuomas wrote "Poet and the Pendulum" to handle the stress and depression he felt over the hate he got from fans and media after the letter and firing of Tarja. He basically "killed himself" in the song.

Tarja always gonna be in big part of Nightwish,many fans stop liesten Nightwish when Anette came including me,she was to pop for me,Floor bring me back big time

Tarja gave an interview telling her side of the story and some time later, Marcelo, Tarja's husband, answered a hundred questions that fans sent to his email. He also exposed several problems coming from the band, such as not informing her that there would be shows, and letting her know when there was practically no time so that she could get to the event location. And when she complained, or was late, the band excused itself and blamed it on the fact that she didn't want to do the shows. Anyway... that's water under the bridge now, both the band and Tarja have consolidated and happy careers. Her solo work is beautiful, you need to hear it.

In 2005 to 2006 was supposed to be a US tour that Tarja did not want to do. The end of a era show that you watched her sing Phantom of the opera, was her last show, the letter firing her is said to be in Toumas back pocket, everyone knew on stage except her. There is a lot of subtext in that concert. Tarja had been threatening to leave the band at anytime for a while at this point. There are NO INNOCENT party's in this drama, as you are reading these letters you are heading to Poet and the Pendulum. The fans blamed Toumas and were very upset. POET is more about the place Toumas was after, it is the sorrow. Another song MASTER , PASSION, GREED, this is the bands anger at Marcello specifically, it is said the some of the lyrics are quotes from Marcello to the band being thrown back in his face. It is Nightwishes hardest song, so angry it is Deathmetal, it will never.be played live. It is a awesome song bit it is petty, angry and once released best forgotten. The last response to Tarja is in the song Bye bye beautiful, all three were cathartic to the band and remember it's the bands point of view.

Now... you're ready to watch "the poet and the pendulum" !

Watch the "End of Innocence " documentary. You see the cracks widen every day.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

Well, you’ll see what Toumas wants you to see.

Before reacting to The Poet and the Pendulum, you MUST watch and analyse Dead Boys Poem. Because that song shows the very definition of Tuomas.

The song "Master Passion Greed", not just the lyrics, the sound of it... you should listen/react to soon, this song goes directly to Tarja´s husband Marcelo - you get it when you listen to it - he is a (Jazz?) musician too, trumpet or some other brazzy windinstrument.....you will get it it is their most angry driven banger and never performed live - and will never be performed live. Tuomas said this early after the release of the album Dark Passion Play, "we are not the persons anymore that we were, or have the same feelings about it as it was when this was written" he said that in correct english, mine isn´t correct i know - hope you can follow anyway ;) "Bye Bye Beautiful" is the song for/against Tarja. The new singer just sings the refrain, cause she didn´t have anything to do with what its about, and she shouldn´t sing that lyrics. Tuomas wanted Anette to not be involved to that history So it´s Marco in the main vocals... :) My two cents about this drama: I was younger too of course, and i was angry about both, Band and Tarja... I thought i lost a love, because that´s it for me with Nightwish´s music... i love it They were young, they were wild, they were not able to communicate the right way inbetween a band. Some said that "Ghost Love Score" is about Tuomas and his feelings for Tarja but Tarja didn´t felt this way, or responsed to Tuomas ... if this is true - who knows ? and i repeat it here as my closing words: every line-up change in the band gave extra-power to Tuomas songwriting and compose skills... it took them to the next level... if you listen to them chronological, you will notice that please react to "Beauty *of* the Beast" lyric video, this song happened after Marco entered the band ... a good example of "next level"

NightWish Army Wisconsin Chapter here. I discovered NightWish late in the game while Floor was already the vocalist. I did, however, go back and listen to beginning music to hear the foundations. I, myself, think the music was amazing, but just could not get into the operatic voice of Tarja. Some songs were great, but every song being operatic was too much for me. Then came Annette. She also had some amazing songs, ex. Bye bye beautiful, meadows of Heaven. Her stage presence for me was extremely lacking along with poor Live vocals. To me she just seemed out of place. Then came Floor, who seems to be completely in her element. Her vocal skills are infinite and a PERFECT match.

@alexr8817

8 күн бұрын

Like all Americans you are conservative in terms of musical sound. At that time you all thought that real and only correct sound of metal was like Metallica and Megadeth. And that's not your fault. Europe was inventing and promoting new subgenres of metal. Nightwish is just a new and unique sound in metal. At that time such music combined with Tarja's classic vocals sounded unique and unusual and charming. Because of this sound, the band quickly had millions of fans. But for Americans, Floor's vocals are perfect, because they sound like what you are used to hearing.

@KevinHollisWI

8 күн бұрын

@@alexr8817 I grew up listening to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and such into early 20s. Metallica was good, but was more into non American bands such as Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and such. I still often go to Operas, theater and symphonies. I would never say Tarja is a bad singer, just that mixed with the metal genre it is not for me. Just as I would say going to an Opera expecting an opera singer and getting Alice Cooper. Nothing against Tarja, she is just not what I like for that genre of music. Everyone has their own taste, and I respect people’s right to like who they like. Being from America has nothing to do with my tastes, it starts with influences I was exposed to even as a child

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

@@KevinHollisWIWhat does growing up listening to piano players have to do with Tarja singing opera? She doesn’t. And, she sings in a more contemporary style on the last two albums.

@KevinHollisWI

7 күн бұрын

@@nicholew350 I’m sorry, her voice is operatic, not full opera. I wouldn’t classify Mozart, Back or Beethoven as piano players. 😂😂. When you write full operas by the age of 11, I tend to think it was more than piano playing. I’m sorry if not everyone adores Tarja, but everyone has their own tastes and I am respectful of other people’s opinions, please respect mine.

@tenorcenter

4 күн бұрын

The unusual sound people liked on the early albums. It was what set NW apart, but imo it sounds a tad generic for my taste :( lol everyone has a different ear I guess

this is the gateway to a bunch of other songs. Master Passion Greed (symphonic thrash metal!!) is the song written about Marcello, and the band's thoughts about him. Poet and the pendulum is Tuomas' heartbreak over the split, and the reaction of many fans to kicking Tarja out of the band. Bye Bye beautiful, one for moving on. As for keeping it private... not sure that was possible, Nightwish are HUGE in Finland. It was even raised in the Finnish parliament, it was such a big story.

There's one press conference from Tarja in video.

need to react to 48 hours to learn the song. a documentary about nightwish and floor

The heaviest Nightwish song, according to many, is "Master, Passion, Greed" - about Tarja's husband Marcelo. Never played live but Emppu once teased an audience with a couple of seconds of the riff before they went into another song. Bottom line, ALL of the band signed the letter. Marko has since admitted that he was drinking more then but feelings often bubble to the surface while logic takes a rest in those situations. I can't imagine Emppu with his judo training and friendly, practical joker nature ever making serious enemies. Jukka was already suffering serious migraines and insomnia so he would certainly avoid heated exchanges with raised voices and conflicting emotions. The publicity of the letters was maybe a mistake - but it kept control in the hands of those involved rather than a sensation-seeking media who could have and probably would have invented reasons for the split. "Dead Boys Poem" is as Tuomas said "the mother of all Nightwish songs" - Tarja sang it but Tuomas said it demonstrates how Nightwish remade him even as he made Nightwish. Surely, she knew this!? Did she?.... hindsight is 20/20. Anette's albums went on to even more commercial success until, recently, the 2004 album "Once", Tarja's last with Nightwish, finally surpassed the total sales - due to increased interest following Anette's leaving.... and now we have Floor..... Marko and Tarja are friends again, Floor and Tarja are friends..... Let's just be friends and enjoy every incarnation of Nightwish, yes?

I have more sympathy for the open letter. This "divorce" was going to be very public and potentially very messy. Tarja would have had a solo career regardless but for Tuomas it was life or death for a future after her departure. From Tuomas' perspective it would be easy to see the possibility, perhaps likelihood, that Tarja would get out in front with the messaging playing the victim even if that was not her first inclination, once the crapstorm started to build and the pressure began to rise. The singer (Tarja or Floor or even Anette) gets all the focus and most of the emotional attachment from the audience/fanbase and would likely get most of the knee jerk sympathy before any facts were known--human nature. But Tuomas is Nightwish so he could see his life's work, his crowning achievement literally killed in the court of public opinion even if the facts were on his/the band's side. Playing catchup might be impossible if the narrative was lost. Tarja's letter didn't really counter the claims, but then she was at that point reactive and had to deal with the narrative the band had set. Ultimately the open letter was unnecessary--or--it worked as hoped :)

@gabriel.bardac

8 күн бұрын

It makes sense as a strategy to make the first "move" and thus impose the narrative of the conflict. As a consequence, the counterparty will be reactive. Interesting.

@MrCharon1965

7 күн бұрын

@@gabriel.bardac It's not that uncommon in messy breakups. You decide to take the high road, he/she may have been sleeping with anything that said hi for the past five years but it's our personal business and I want to move on and keep the drama down... Then you find that in order to protect reputation, social group status, avoid difficult questions, even cognitive dissonance over personal self image YOU have now been portrayed as the the actual cheater, or you were such a monster there was no recourse but to finally seek solace elsewhere, blah, blah, blah. And unless you have a solid series of receipts to back up your claims it's an uphill battle to save your reputation.

Now you are a full member of the NW army. You are prepared for 'The poet and the pendulum'. There are two other songs in this case. The first is 'Master passion greed',sung by Marko. This is NW's hardest song and is never played live. In this song was Tarja husband blamed for the disaster. The 2nd is 'Bye bye beautiful', directed to Tarja. And the last in the row is 'The Poet' wherein Tuomas blamed himself for the chaos. This song starts and ends with two words. Listen to it. After this the chapter 'Tarja' was closed.

Question.... you uploaded since a reaction to the studio version of Bye bye beautiful.... but it's blocked in the US and comments are turned off... did you mean for it to be that way?

Now you can do Poet and The Pendulum.

Poet an the pendulum is more about how the backlash of fans and others against him over firing Tarja. Drove him to deep depression. So he figured either off himself in a song or for real. Lucky for us he choose in a song. Bye Bye Beautiful is directly at Tarja. Then another song directed to both Tarja and her husband. Yes Floor was around at the time and friends with all of Nightwish. So she knows the whole story too.

You have begun a journey, Bandmaid, Babymetal, Nightwish ! Time for Lovebites (Shadowmaker) and you might also enjoy something different Greta Van Fleet ( Meeting the Master)

I can feel why a genius like Tuomas in his mid-20s couldnt express different.........than that letter..... Tuomas is Nightwish....no one else....... Everyone can be changed....even my GODDESS....(which will not happen hopefully)........ But he is Nightwish......no one else.........

@Mischnikvideos

8 күн бұрын

Tuomas has said several times that he will break up the band after Floor. In the past, it was more because he didn't want to face another conflict with the change, but now it's because after almost 25 years he's ready to let go of the band and do something else. Tuomas is the only one who cannot be replaced because he makes Nightwish's sound.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

@@MischnikvideosYeah, he said the same when Tarja was in the band. His words mean nothing. If Floor does anything to slightly make him mad, he’ll change his tune. He’ll probably just have his wife sing and pretty much turn it into Auri.

@Mischnikvideos

7 күн бұрын

@@nicholew350 If he turns Nightwish into Auri, then he has disbanded Nightwish. I think his last statement is the most valid. He lets Nightwish die so he has more time for projects like Auri, without having to worry about commercial success. Or sells his songs instead of producing them himself. I don't think he necessarily needs the public appearance. Floor will sing until she is carried off the stage.

Hi Lanae. I only discovered Nightwish in 2016, so I had already missed all of the drama. I had heard the band on the radio here in the UK, following the release of a Gary Moore cover 'Over the Hills and Far Away', but was oblivious to any of their own back catalogue. The open letter seems an extraordinary way of conducting things, but Tuomas may have felt that he had a responsibility to the fans to explain openly the reasons behind the dismissal. Still. his reasons are entirely subjective, so to coin an English phrase, he was 'washing his dirty linen in public'. To this day, only he will know the truth behind everything. When I first began watching the band here on YT, there seemed to be a real enmity between those who liked Floor, and those older fans who hated her. There were many unedifying partisan exchanges on here, full of quite hateful invictive, and it was really horrible to see. Not only were the comments hard to read, but there were even reactors who seemed to deliberately pit Floor and Tarja fans against each other, purely for likes and subscriptions. In the meantime, poor Anette seemed to be dismissed as merely a 'pop singer' who merely lived in Tarja's shadow for five years. To this day, I feel trily sorry at the way she has been consigned as a 'f'otnote' in the band' history. I am sure that this type of situation occurs whenever there is a change of lead-singer. It happened with Genesis and with my own favourite band Marillion. How a band and it's respective fanbase adapt, as potential changes in musical direction and 'sound will determine the longevity of it's prospective career. In this case however, I believe Floor has taken Nightwish to a completely different level!

Another reason to take this public was so there were no fan speculation of unrequited love. Tuomas loved her as a childhood friend, not a love interest. The entire situation was a shitshow and even Finland's President weighed in against Tuomas... without knowing the whole saga. It wrecked him. Check out the short documentary Maan Maniot to see Tuomas after the firing but b4 hiring Anette Olzen. Very dark days for the sensitive musician and man!

I've read where alot of the change in Tarja came from her husband. I guess he saw Tarja as the headliner of Nightwish and started promoting her as such. She started traveling separate from the band and it all went sideways. I've read where Tuomas and the band decided opening the letter to the public was done out of the desire to be open, honest and transparent with their fans. Unfortunately, you know what they say about good intentions. I guess in a way, there isn't much new here, we've seen and heard of these types a breakdown of band chemistry countless times before. I don't think Tuomas was prepared for the huge backlash from fans and especially the reaction all over Finland. I heard the Prime Minister even got involved.. All of this sent Tuomas into a tail spin that came within writing the song "Poet and the Pendulum" from killing himself. He shut down writing and closed off and finally started his final recovery be going home to his folks. Now that you understand what went on with Tarja and the aftermath, enjoy Poet and the Pendulum - have some tissues handy. It is a stunning piece of music. I encourage you to not allow the internal conflict and end result impact how you view and or appreciate Tarja or then band. I look at it as another case of a band with internal problems with members struggling to find a way to end the drama and everybody move on. Sometimes the end goes smoothly without hurt feelings and other times it doesn't go smoothly and feelings are hurt. The best news is, Tarja and Nightwish have both landed on their feet and moved on with both achieving success and as mentioned, Tarja and Marko are touring Europe together this summer. If you wanna see Tarja nail it out of the park, watch her sing "What About Us" with Within Temptation and Sharon den Adel - W O W ! Then watch her sing Shadow Play from Bucharest - You'll get a whole new appreciation for her with this one. God Almighty she can sing. Enjot

There were also publicized email(?), really low blow from Marcelo Cabuli for Tuomas where he tried to imply that Tuomas fired Tarja for jealousy because Tarja choose him instead of Tuomas. If Tuomas and Tarja were really an item it's under speculation, like there are publicity pictures about them (Google images "Tuomas and Tarja") where they look a bit "lovey dovey" but that doesn't prove anything. Band members countered it with accusations of Marcelo trying to enforce himself a larger role with the band and becoming a manager of the whole band, having reins of all the business matters. Earlier Marcelo was just the person who organized their gigs in South America but after the marriage he became manager for Tarja and handled her negotiations towards the band. Nightwish song "Master Passion Greed" kzread.info/dash/bejne/mnaItNNre8raY7Q.html is about Marcelo and while it was released in album, AFAIK it was never played live.

You have to remember that all four male members signed their name to the letter so if it was just Tuomas then it could be admonished? But Non of the other guys rejected the letter!..You should also check out Auri the side project by Tuomas and Troy with Johanna Tuomas wife also the new album (second) features drums by Kai the Nightwish drummer! Auri are supposed to be touring later this year..You should do probably do one of Floors favourite Auri songs Night 13..kzread.info/dash/bejne/mI2Kz8-QftbRmtY.html

As expected the backlash against the band and especially Tuomas was very severe including from the Prime Minister of Finland. At the time Tuomas contemplated suicide. He spent time away from the media with his parents who were able to calm him. The three songs he wrote in response are Bye Bye Beautiful (listen to the lyrics) kzread.info/dash/bejne/gqmG2Kiapt2ZgbA.html&ab_channel=Nightwish Master Passion Greed (lyric video only) kzread.info/dash/bejne/eKh_q6VuaaiwmpM.html&ab_channel=Nightwish Poet and the Pendulum (live at Wembley Arena) kzread.info/dash/bejne/gGiKyNtuqabfXcY.html&ab_channel=Nightwish

For the backstory from Tuomas' side, listen to the early songs. "Swanheart" is a good example. Also: "Gethsemene". He even named a song "Two for tragedy". There is quite a debate going on about this, but to me, it's clear. He loved her. In a very shy and innocent way. Well, maybe not so innocent ("The Beauty of the Beast" - WHAT A SONG!"). For the full drama, see Tarja's press conference after the letters. Although time has healed a lot of wounds (Marko and Tarja are back on stage together), Tuomas and Tarja still don't really speak with each other. Although she sent him a very personal message after the death of his father, three years ago. He greatly appreciated that. In 2026, Nightwish will turn 30. I can see them giving a concert in Finland with all three singers. But maybe, I'm just a dreamer. An ocean soul ;-)

Tarja didn't address anything because she didn't want to turn this into a feud, no "he said, she said". She was mostly disappointed that they published it behind her back for the public. In the end, both sides failed to communicate, both managements screwed this up. But Tuomas never hated Tarja. He was disappointed, but as you'll see in Master Passion Greed, he mostly saw Marcelo, Tarja's husband, as the one who corrupted her, while Tarja was in his eyes one of the victims in this, the naive innocent who made a wrong choice. He reached out to her after the split but said she didn't reply. They are communicating now though, mostly work-related.

When NW cancelled their show in Oslo, Norway, I lived there. That night I was out on town in a metal pub grabbing some beers with some friends. (This was before the Album from 2007 that made me a true NW fan). That night I met a LOT of angry upset people who had waited for this show for months. The reason they got that night was that Tarja was sick. But she had been spotted by several people around in Oslo earlier that day. Among them 1 friend of mine. She was buying a coffe, she saw Tarja sitting in the coffee shop chatting with some people. Si everyone knew already then that she dropped the show, and wasn't sick. There was A LOT of anger and frustration in the air that night.

@jcheimi4238

8 күн бұрын

How is that proof that she wasn't sick?

@sulliken77

7 күн бұрын

Well. I can't prove anything 20 years later, can I? But when you're sick, you don't go and drink coffee with friends, do you? In a city in a country you don't even live in. Anyway. In the letter from NW to Tarja they explain why they really had to cancel. You don't have to take my word for it

There are many opinions about this. But I am with Tuomas' caravan 🤘Tuomas IS Nightwish!

The band was right to publish the letter and be honest with the fans. There are other details that were left out of the letter but if you travel to Finland and talk to the musicians on the local scene you will know more details against Tarja - except Timmo Tolkkie, he is crazy. Tuomas was the last to sign the letter and the idea of ​​firing Tarja did not come from him. It is also worth remembering that Tuomas was already looking for a different path for the band and Tarja was unable to distance herself from the operatic technique. Tuomas and the band were already moving towards something more commercial. Anette was perfect for that phase of the band. I read a while ago that Floor was Tuomas' favorite but she was very good in After Forever and Tuomas didn't want to dismantle the Dutch band - After Forever is Floor's first band. They were symphonic metal but darker. They used more doom metal with death. When in After Forever, Floor participated in a project called Beto Vazques Infinity (Argentinean musician) and Floor complained a lot about the producer in an interview - and also about the Spanish singer in which they performed a duet. Elisa Martin had a strong Spanish accent when singing in English. The journalist asked if it was Marcelo (Tarja's husband) and Floor replied, "I don't know what she saw in him". Know that Floor makes strong statements and is not afraid to say so. P.S.: The letter should be signed by Marco first and not by Tuomas.

@Mischnikvideos

8 күн бұрын

Floor was in a relationship with the founder of the band at the time. Leaving After Forever was not an option for her. That's why it failed.

@geuseliohulk8661

7 күн бұрын

@@Mischnikvideos Tuomas didn't invite Floor. I remember that Tuomas used the justification that After Forever was having some success and didn't want to interrupt. But I must admit that I have NOT heard of Tuomas, I have only heard comments among the band's fans.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

@@geuseliohulk8661Toumas said in an interview with Floor, that he didn’t consider her after firing Tarja. It was one of their first interviews together.

I loved Tarja's voice and hated to see her leave NW but every time I think of the situation I always come back to the fact that it's 4 people's word vs 1. On top of that, NW had been so successful with Tarja as the vocalist, do you really think they'd fire her for no good reason? Does it make sense in any way at all? She can deny the accusations and play victim all she wants. None of us will every truly know what did or didn't happen but the facts just don't make sense if Tarja had not in fact said those things to Tuomas or missed practices and whatnot like he said. There was just no reason for them to fire her unless at least some of it was true. I'm just glad Floor wasn't involved in any way and as I understand it, Floor and Tarja are good friends still to this day.

You did well with the evidence. Tarja's letter was a narcissistic blow hard deflecting blame from her own actions. in the case her husbands as well. she had been turning into a diva and separating from the band for quite some time and it was Tuomas holding the band together when they others wanted her to leave.. then when they finally did split Tuomas got ALL the grief.. THAT is where his depression came from,, not that they split the band up or split with Tarja... the fans turned on him.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

Nope. Toumas is the leader of the band. He was too weak to take charge and find a solution to problems. He didn’t think about the long term affects on Tarja’s vocals that come with too much touring. He just wanted to constantly tour and make that money. Look at what he did to Annette when she got sick and went to the hospital. He fired her. Then lied, and said the split was mutual. Toumas is shady.

@RichFrye

7 күн бұрын

@@nicholew350 what does any of that have to do with what I stated? Tarja has a mouth and knows how to use it, yet all fault lies with Tuomas?

*All I'm doing is asking questions ppl should be asking, and giving my 5 cents as a man, a brother of a younger sister, and as a younger brother of the touring bass player.* - 1 female and bunch of guys during tour (usually more bands went together on tour back then) - ofc you wouldnt want to spend months on a bus traveling especially since they did grow big and they could afford it. Furthermore, voice is not an instrument that forgives easily, you cant just put ice on it and problems will go away. - During an attack on Tarja on stage, all of them kept playing (back in 2003 i believe) and security (Marcelo and his team (he was a manager for South America tour?) ) had to rush in and get the guy off of her. Would you feel safe w guys afterwards? What if it was your sister or friend - would you just continue to play? - She wanted her own dressing room on tour (to change and worm up her voice) - aparently that was an issue, but was "allowed"... Why is that an issue? ( just think about it as a human, not a touring musician) - Sleep in a hotel, not a touring bus - again, guys can go drinking all night, smoking, being loud, and can play the songs tomorrow. Can you speak normally after a sleepless night? Sing operatically? - "Never rehearsed songs" - If its Tuomases baby, I even wouldnt wanna say things about his creation. Just give the notes and she'll sing, she went to school for it, singing process requires more prep than just grabbing a guitar and plugging it in. - "... could give you just one day in advance..." where is the stuff he told her that provoked that response? Do we dare ask why she responded like that? - All that fiasco was handled bad on both ends, she shouldnt've let Marcelo be her voice to the guys, they could've approached her to talk before/after concerts. Either way, looking back now, as to how other members of the band have left/replaced - I do believe that Tuomas has a bit of a too high expectations for other members. It may be his creation and life, but - at the end of the day, for other ppl, its "just" a band. Nobody and everybody is replacable. Jukka left after 10(ish) years since, Marco after 20(ish). All in all, they all got what they wanted 20yrs ago. Some are reuinting, some are nowhere in sight... Such is life :/ Anette was, well... She did say that she is not afraid to get an Open Letter like Tarja did... Do we 'know' why she just "left"? Ill link the interviews, tho theres 2 sides, as always: www.nightwish.online/topic/36-2013-14-anette-reflects-on-leaving-nw/

These letters tell you the public, business-related side of the situation. What you don't (and won't) see is that there was a bit more going on behind the scenes even if it was only a one-sided experience by Tuomas alone. That logical conclusion based on many, many observations, connecting the proverbial dots, and reading between the lines is a highly controversial one and will draw heated disagreement from the fanbase who have split opinions on it. I therefore won't elaborate explicitly, but rather give you a hint about what I mean. Consider Poet & the Pendulum. You may or may not know yet that he wrote that for the purpose of committing s__cide (letters deleted to hide from the word-sniffing algorithms) in the song so that he did not have to do it in real life. Now ask yourself what kind of emotional torment will drive a young man to the verge of committing s__cide? Cold, hard, logical business decisions.... or something else? 🤔 Now ask yourself another question: A 17 year-old boy meets an angelically beautiful 17 year-old girl from his same hometown region in music school, becomes friends, and asks her to co-found a musical project band with him, and she agrees. They of course have to work closely together, in a professional sense, for several years. Just use common sense. What "white knight fantasy" (remember the Ever Dream lyrics) do you think is living inside the young man's head and heart? Then, cut to the future, she marries her business manager. And he is forced to continue to work closely with her professionally for several more years in what must have been emotional torment to have "in yo face" every day. Get the picture? So, yes, the business side of the problem is very real and documented publicly, as you just read, but is only half the story. Want a totally enlightening perspective on that conclusion? Listen to this whole End of an Era concert, in the chronological playlist order, and examine the lyrics of each song choice through the filter of the scenario I painted above. The choice of playlist order and the re-filtered interpretation of the lyrics will paint an amazingly clear picture. And when the camera catches him casting occasional glances at her, it is difficult to see anything other than clandestine peeks to see if she is figuring out the story he arranged for her to sing about getting her "angel wings burned to dust" at the end of this final concert of the tour.... or if she remained oblivious to the unfolding story. Then, go back through their discography and observe the lyrical themes changed from science fiction related themes and youthful, hopeful views of life for a happy future slipping into a darker, increasingly melancholic state of mind that threw hint after hint after hint about the "dark passion play" that was brewing in his mind regarding how he was going to escape from this hell he felt he was in (the "altar" unto which he was "strapped"). Then, after this dismissal in 2005, the lyrical mood changed to a catharsis of anger and relief (Dark Passion Play), and acceptance (Imaginaerum and the movie of the same name) both with Annette singing his feelings for him. After Imaginaerum the whole character of the Nightwish story has turned a new leaf into a much happier, mature, and brighter look to the future and the beauty of the world around us. Indeed, cold business decisions do NOT drive those kind of emotions and upheaval lasting years.

@lanaeshonestopinion

8 күн бұрын

Wow you just gave me a LOT to think on! Thank you for this comment!

Toumas has a history of being shady. He fired Sami with a letter as well. Too much of a coward to face him. Then, fired Annette when she was in the hospital, and lied saying the separation was mutual. Marko has recently come out and said, he was tired of both sides bickering. He didn’t know who to believe, but he knew Toumas couldn’t leave the band since it’s his band. So, Tarja had to go so it would all stop. Marko is now touring with Tarja. Toumas is always at the center of the drama. He broke up, or almost broke up the band, multiple times. What Marcelo was trying to do for Tarja is normal management stuff. Toumas just can’t deal with difficult situations and their management is known to be greedy. Marko has said so as well. The funny part is, that they now do all of the things Tarja asked them to do. They play the bigger venues, travel by plane, etc. They’re even taking a huge tour hiatus. Not everything is so black and white.

@danielberger1378

6 күн бұрын

I agree with most what you said, but it is still "TUOMAS"

People do not realize that this rock and metal world is full of men that party. It is a mens world on tour. She was the single woman there and for so many years, she did not enjoy to drink and party because she cared for herself and her voice! Nobody in metal or rock has the operatic voice like Tarja, she is the only one, not even Floor comes close (sorry guys but it is the truth) compare ghost loves score song, the dark operatic voice like Tarja nobody in metal does it. The letter is horrible and its meant to attack her image, no reason to make something like this public. They handled it poorly. Do not judge Tarja true character based on this farce!

You should now watch the documentary 'The making of Endless forms most Beautiful' - to see how Nightwish works together and how Floor participantes on a hole other level than Tarja. Floor is a part of Nightwish working side by side and taking responsibility - and are always prepared. She is even more ambitious perfectionistic han Tuomas, in getting the right emotional expression. It is plus 2 hours but excellent background kzread.info/dash/bejne/eI6Vm8izlcKndsY.htmlsi=hzGL6Vniy6HCGPuF

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

That is a documentary to make things seem a certain way. Just like the other documentaries. If Floor ever crosses Toumas, you bet they’ll be a documentary about it to make her look bad.

Hi Lanae..... You are 100% spot on. Tarya never answered the bands points at all. The only thing she could come up with was the most recent concert and how she was feeling (trying the get the sympathy vote perhaps). Other members of our Army have pointed out the songs on the 'Dark Passion Play' album...... so, bottom line, you're ready to go ahead and react to them now you have an idea of the back story. I'd suggest Poet and the Pendulem first actually.

@karadenizin-kizi

8 күн бұрын

I think she made the right choice not addressing the points, because she didn't think personal issues should be made public in the first place. Her main point was her disappointment that the band didn't talk to her directly. We see how quickly a debate escalates here. I think if she had started like "you said I did this but you did this first" it would have become an even bigger mess. She said herself the split was inevitable, but if they had all sat together it could have been handled with a lot more respect and grace.

@grahambatchelor3576

8 күн бұрын

@@karadenizin-kizi You make some fair points, however, as they hadn't talked properly for so long, what would be the chances of sitting down and having a serious chat? The issues had to be aired because the 'abuse' Tuomas and the band would get once her 'sacking' became public.... hence the open letter. Best to come clean and stop the hearsay... I say.

@nicholew350

7 күн бұрын

@@grahambatchelor3576You make a good point. Toumas is the leader of the band. Not communicating is Terrible leadership. He’s the person in charge. He failed and made the situation much worse.

@grahambatchelor3576

7 күн бұрын

@@nicholew350 Seems strange that Jukka, Marko and Empu was with Toumas on the decision, so he must of been only communicating with who he was regularly communicating with....... obvious if you really think about it!

I'll put it that way, it was definitely a tough thing, but I have the feeling Tuomas was honest about this, anr they simply had to let her go. The arrival of floor to the band was also something... Different. They did let Annette go during the tour in 2022. It seems that she did poison the chemistry of the band quite a bit (despite her appearing so sweet), but also they had to cancel some shows because of Annette health, and in general, Annette wasn't a great I've performer. I like her voice, but she struggled a lot at many concerts, often not hitting the right notes either. But I don't think it's any of the latter, it has been likely how she affected the mood in the band, and when she had to drop a concert again. When they filled in at last minute with two guest singers from another band (Kamelot) they probably saw that they do not really need her, and decided to my boot her out of the band... And they called Floor, which just recovered from a burnout back then... She took the challenge and had 48hrs to learn the setlist. At the end of the tour (after the concert in wacken 2013) the asked her to become permanent member of the band, and Troy as well. You could react to the documentary "Learn the setlist in 48 hours", it is quite interesting. By incidents are rare... I can't recall any big band firing their lead singer and replacing him/her in the midst of a tour. There's also short footage footage of her very first moments in stage with nightwish, and honestly, she did an amazing job. It took a bit until she got more confident in herself and it took the band a bit as well, obviously, that's firing the previous singer during the tour it's a tough thing to pull off... But it all worked out. Some bad tongues will say they did Annette because she had been pregnant, but it definitely was not the reason, it would (if anything) just gave been a minor attributing factor.

Now, 20 y later, Tuomas has Floor ( over 11years).Tuomas is Nightwish, Floor is his voice and empath, Emppu the soul. That is NIGHTWISH.

Here is a response from Tarja to some of their accusations kzread.info/dash/bejne/gY2f0ZumqLiwlbw.html

I`m probably going to get hate from the Tarja people but I wasn`t a fan of her . I really got in to Nightwish when they hired Anette Olzen, I think she was underestimated by fan`s because her voice was more pop but they put out 2 awesome album`s with her as female vocalist. Floor brought the perfect mix of vocal`s because she can sing any type of music.

Hmm... Maybe Tuomas should write there what he said to Tarja that she said such words? I'm sure it was answer in anger on what Tuomas said... Tarja was like hired musician in Nightwish, not because she wanted to, it was like that because other members and especially Tuomas treated her like that, she didn't do anything more than singing, Tuomas wanted her only to go to studio and record vocals for album, then go on tour and sing, nothing more, she couldn't do anything more in this band. I think Tarja is very patient that she stand such atmosphere for so long... She should be solo artist much earlier. And it's nothing new to know that Tuomas hated Marcelo (yes, it's Tarja's husband), Marcelo is from Argentina and I think Tuomas is just racist... And Marko was the one who wanted the most to kick Tarja from band, and you said of such great bond between him and Tarja in "Phantom of the Opera". :D Yeah, he should be actor... For me old Nightwosh members are just assholes, sorry, but kicking someone by open letter? Really? And someone without who they probably wouldn't be such big? They were soo big in that time because it was something new, and they even couldn't say it to her, it's a shame... And many things in Tuomas' letter doesn't true, sorry.

"She didn´t address any of it"... Darling: "I don´t recognize myself at all from the way that they descibed me"

There is another tearful press conference where she complains about how badly she has been treated. There too, she does not respond to the accusations. When I argue with Tarja's die-hard fans today, it is mainly about these points. Musically, Tarja has also followed up on her first album: Tarja - I Walk Alone (Video Single Version) Tarja - Until My Last Breath

@karadenizin-kizi

8 күн бұрын

No, Until My Last Breath is about Michael Jackson, loosely 😂 her responses are mostly the songs "Enough" and "Diva".. in both songs she mentions their heavy drinking, I think that was one of the things she was most uncomfortable with during tours.

@karadenizin-kizi

8 күн бұрын

also I'm a "die hard" Tarja fan, but I think the letter from Tuomas holds some truth, I do think Tarja wasn't as committed to the band anymore. In any regular job, you can quit and it's not disloyal. But Nightwish is Tuomas' baby, and I think that Tarja of all people would leave the band hit him, as well as all the arguments between them.

@Mischnikvideos

8 күн бұрын

@@karadenizin-kizi You can see that I'm not a big Tarja fan ;-) Similar to the English, binge drinking is common in Finland. This is not a problem specific to the band alone, it's a Finnish one. That's why alcohol is so expensive in Scandinavia and the guys took advantage of it on tour in other countries. Everyone is older now. Nightwish is not a hobby band, but a company that plans years in advance. Spontaneous changes are difficult. You're either in the band for years or out. Tarja questioned the plans and the band drew conclusions from this.

@karadenizin-kizi

8 күн бұрын

@@Mischnikvideos I think she let them know one year in advance. I do think the band had the right to let her go earlier, but I also believe a letter saying they decided to part ways due to having grown apart and not being able to find a suitable compromise would have been a much better way than saying "you said this, you did this, you are like this". They did neither her nor themselves a favour. Both sides were bad at communicating, that much is clear. But I do feel for Tarja. She lost her mother to cancer only 2 years before the split, rushed into marriage, was ill a lot during tours and she said she was by herself a lot. That's nobody's fault but it's understandable why she needed some changes in her life.

@akaha001

8 күн бұрын

@@Mischnikvideos I don't know how binge drinking being common in Finland should somehow work as an excuse. I've seen early NW documentaries and the behaviour of the guys on tour was uncomfortable to watch. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it must have been for Tarja to actually live with. Personally I would not have lasted as long as she did or been as polite as she has been after they dismissed her in the way they did. I'm sure both sides are to blame in what lead to the break up, but the way the departure was handled and the aftermath of it from both sides is definitely showing Tarja as the bigger person to me at least. It would have been easy to hit back and join in on the mud slinging but she never chose to do that.

I think Tuomas released this to the public because the fans didn't know what had been going on behind the scenes and we're giving him such a hard time