Randy you should have your crew put together a montage of shots you have taken on elk. With the calibers, bullets, and ranges of you hunting. BTW i miss watching you out hunting, or even helping other new elk hunters. I know about your health issues, and why you dont do it anymore. Im just saying that you are missed. You have and always will be a true hunter to the core and meaning. Not only just for the hunts, but for the conservation efforts that you have done for our community. THANK YOU!

@edwardabrams4972

27 күн бұрын

🙌👏👊

@208SledHead

23 күн бұрын

What would a montage have proven?

@Longtrailside

23 күн бұрын

@@208SledHead Well number one it would be fun to remember past hunts that he was on, and for us to remember them with him. Two educational and seeing what calibers and bullets are the most effective at different distances.

@208SledHead

22 күн бұрын

@@Longtrailside I was hoping you'd say that. I'm not picking on YOU in particular, but I don't understand why so many hunters insist on there being a "best" cartridge, because there is none. I see and hear comments all the time about "Well my 06 has never let me down in 30 years so that's the best." Well guess what? A 308 isn't gonna let you down. A 28 Nosler isn't gonna let you down. A 300 Win Mag isn't gonna let you down. As long as you do your part as the shooter, and you're using an adequate cartridge for the animal you're hunting, the bullet will not "let you down." And videos will not provide definitive proof of anything. Why? Because there's too many variables. Wind drift, foliage, shot placement, muscle and bone density, was the animal sick or wounded prior? All of these can and will affect the outcome of the final result. For some reason people get this emotional attachment to a certain cartridge and I personally think it's ridiculous. Why people INSIST that there has to be a "best" is beyond me. If you do your part as a hunter, a 6.5 Creedmoor will kill a mule deer just as fast as a 300 PRC will. It's such a tired, beaten-to-death debate and it blows me away that people still continue to have the discussion. If there was a way to provide absolute proof, then sure - debate all day long. But there isn't. A dead animal is a dead animal.

My go to hunting rifle is my old 270 ruger with 150gr nosler partitions . It has not let me down in over 30 years 😊

@derekmcmurry4263

27 күн бұрын

I can't think of anything that combo can't do in NA

@davidplatt8915

26 күн бұрын

Ditto that! Same choice here...but for a few more years. It just works.

@AndrewPorter10

26 күн бұрын

Got my first ever elk last fall with that round. It did a great job.

@andrewcleveland

26 күн бұрын

I bet literally tons of elk have been taken by that old 270/partition combo.

@edwardhoward4708

25 күн бұрын

That is on my shopping list. Ruger no. 1 with 26” barrel, for western medium game (not elk).

270 winchester ive taken a lot of my elk and deer with it. 140 grain nosler accubond. All my elk ive shot under 300 yards the 270 drops them everytime

The 22 long rifle has been a my only choice for ranges past 700 yards for ranges past 1000 yards my go to gun is the 12 gadget slug

@markhatfield5621

20 күн бұрын

That's good. I've only been able to take game with the 22LR out to 550 yards and the 12 ga. slug out to 800 yards.

My 270 with 150 grain Nosler partition did just fine on my bull last year.

I use a 308 Win and a 300 WM. I reload for both using 165gr Speer SPBT for the 308, and 180gr Nosler partition and 190gr Speer Impact in the 300 WM. Neither has ever let me down.

data point re all-copper: 129gr Barnes VOR-TX w/ LRX bullet from 270 maintains >1500 ft-lbs beyond 400 yds with sufficient velocity for mushroom several hundred yards further

30-06 and 7mm for my two elk kills. I prefer the 06. Great as always Randy, thank you.

35 Whelen

Great video, Randy! I have taken an elk with my 7mm Rem Mag, several with my 338 Win Mag, and one with my 45-70. All do the job for sure. My wife is using her custom 300 WSM that had no problem with her elk last year. Cheers!

270 win is a good elk cartige

@scott729

25 күн бұрын

Classic western cartridge.

Been extremely happy with the 6.8 western. My second choice would be the 300 wm

@SabertoothDefenseSystems

27 күн бұрын

I LOVE the 6.8 western! Great caliber!

@jaydunbar7538

27 күн бұрын

@@SabertoothDefenseSystemsit’s a cartridge, the caliber of the 6.8 western cartridge is .270

@nateeller2683

27 күн бұрын

​@@jaydunbar75386.8 is also a bullet diameter, which is .277in or 6.8mm in diameter. Hush

@SabertoothDefenseSystems

26 күн бұрын

@@jaydunbar7538 dude chill

@sneakinguponit

26 күн бұрын

@@jaydunbar7538isn’t it .277 like the .270 Winchester?

I use a .300 weatherby

264 Winchester magnum.

7MM REM Mag because it works, was my first rifle and I’ve used it on everything from pronghorn bucks to bull elk. But I’ve also used a 300 WM on elk. The latter is really a bull elk or better cartridge.

30-06 180 grain polymer tip at 200 yards and I’m a happy man with elk meat on the freezer and in the pot :)

28Nosler with 190gn ATips work fine on elk and Red Deer (which are mini Elk) The Berger 195gn EOL's work great too.

It's fascinating to have so many options available in calibers and bullets. I like the 270 WSM, 300 WSM, and 280 AI for elk. Thanks for opening up a discussion.

Favorite model 99 308 never lost the game and even better with 30 06

35 whelen for me . 225 grain acubonds

270 win 140 gr

Mine is a toss up between 30-06 and .300 Savage

I haven't drawn a tag yet but i plan on taking a 7mm rem mag. Likely with 162 eldx.

@randall875

25 күн бұрын

Keep the shots behind the shoulder with those bullets I've had them blow up on black bear shoulders but the behind the shoulder shot the animals drop like rocks

300wby 338win 7rem 30-06 270win 308 have all proved theirselves on elk with me it’s all about the placement. But the 300B and 338w blow em down no matter placement.

Yep I watched that one! I watch him almost as much as I watch you. Not the problem in this case. Thank you for your help and insight though! It's very good to talk with you! I am an old Vietnam vet just trying to get myself up the mountain😊 wouldn't mind going up the mountain with you sometime! 😁

For forty years I have only had one hunting rifle witch has served me well, an Austrian Steyr Mannlicher 308W, using only home loaded ammo with 150 gr Nosler partition to shoot everything from foxes to elk at distances up to 300 yards. I have never needed another hunting rifle.

I changed over to the 7prc this year and love it!

I couldn't agree more. I just put together a new big game rifle so I can retire my family heirloom Weatherby .270 mag mk 5 made in Germany that my mom bought my dad for their 1st wedding anniversary in 1962. I decided to retire it and keep it in the safe for 3 big reasons: 1 real monetary value, 2 sentimental value, 3 cost and availability of ammo. I chose a Weatherby Vanguard in 30-06. Why its a reasonable priced rifle, I can buy ammo anywhere Walmart, ace hardware etc. and it is affordable. I can shoot light grain 110 with 3500 fps for deer and all the way up to 220 grain at about 2500 fps versatility is there. I still think its hard to beat the 30-06. I bought 3 boxes or 165 grain ammo from Remington, Federal, and Winchester so see what shoots best. Still have to get it to the range.

@NCWoodlandRoamer

25 күн бұрын

You picked a great rifle, I have two of them and I believe they are one of the best out there for the money. And you picked the all time greatest cartridge also!

I personally use a .270 for all my hunting! What do you guys think of a .270??

@stanleysanders9099

27 күн бұрын

Keep it nothing wrong with it especially with ethical hunting range bc doesn’t matter until past 400

@gsnicholas8522

27 күн бұрын

A 270 is a great hunting cartridge. What @stanleysanders9099 said is spot on.

@Miguelneyney

27 күн бұрын

Got my first elk with my 270 win at 300 yards no problem 👍🏼

@nmelkhunter1

27 күн бұрын

It bounces off big bulls! Just kidding! With 150 Partitions it’s a great choice.

@hotramen5952

27 күн бұрын

.270 is a fine cartridge.

Great information Randy Thank you

Took my first Elk at 301 yards with a 300 PRC I built. The shot placement was middle of the body, just behind the shoulder. Elk dropped, meat was preserved. Hornady ELD-X 212 gr.

I really like this video.👍👍 Energy, shot placement, bullet construction, personal skills. Are key factors. My personal set up is the 7mm Remington mag. With the 160 Swift Aframe.

The 7 mm Remington magnum was invented for hunting in the western mountain states out to 500 yards for elk and deer hunting. I'd have to use 175 grain partition bullets and keep the shots inside of 400 yards under ideal conditions.

thank you one more time for the transparency, experience and authenticity! if I had to pick one caliber, it would've been 308. kind of the same as 30-06 but in short action. also its not as destructive as other rounds for the smaller game (deer). I also love the 7mm-08, and 270win but for the smaller game. 🙂 I hope one day I get to go hunting with you! 🙂

300 win mag has just been so impressive to me that would be my choice.

I'm fervently hoping that the specific hunting cartridge I've selected for my .30-06 Sprg will prove up and serve as an all-around big game cartridge from mule deer to whitetail, to elk and moose. That is a 168-grain, Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter. It shoots relatively well from my Tikka T3x rifle (certainly to sub-MOA accuracy bench-rested) and I also have my Leupold CDS turret customized to that cartridge. I haven't yet been lucky enough to take a shot on a big game animal as yet as last Fall was my first season. I realize shot placement will always be key, of course.

@sneakinguponit

26 күн бұрын

Sounds like a good combination.

Well said Randy!

It’s very interesting that caliber de jour is the 6.5 Creed. It’s also interesting to me that if you compare the 6.5 to the 270 WCF you’ll find that ballistics for both cartridges is surprisingly similar.

@nativewarrior5052

23 күн бұрын

But 270 WCF shoots faster with less drop and minimal wind drift difference. I don't know any 6.5CM shooting 143gr over 2800fps, but my 270WCF shoots 145gr @ 2960fps.

@BornAgain2019

3 күн бұрын

The only reason its somewhat close is because the 270 is running with a 1:10 twist restrictor plate allowing the Creed to catch up and pass at extended ranges with high BC bullets. Within 400 yards the 270 smokes it.

I’ve only been able to go elk hunting 2 times in my life. First time was 4th rifle season in Colorado. I shot my first elk on the second day with a.338 win mag @ 215 yards. Second time was with archery equipment. Long story but due to some confusion the drop camp outfit we used forgot to tell my hunting party that we should have entered the draw for tags…. We thought they were over the counter. So much money wasted and traveling for some distance we tried to make the best of it. Well, that being said. I started load development with 200 gr nosler acutips. Couldn’t find enough to practice and do load development. Went to the 225 gr nosler…. Much more manageable recoil. Not harsh at all. Just trying to explain that light bullets in a big cartridge can be sharp and hurt. I found that a little more weight helps very much. Thanks for the video.

Another thing to keep in mind is ammo availability. When I bough my 300 win mag I looked at the grain bullets I could get plus how easy it was to find ammo. If I would say choose a 257 Robert’s which many still use for elk hunting and moose hunting in sone circles finding ammo is a bit harder. The best elk cartridge is the one you are able to handle and shoot. I went with a 300 win mag for my elk hunt this fall but it’s going to pull double duty as my bear gun and my deer rifle when I’m shooting from mountain side to mountain side.

Love the video Randy❤ love them all and most all of them will work! I think it’s a lack of practice and trying to shoot too far are more of a problem in general hunters.

I own 2 BIG GAME rifles. * Remington 1903 30-06. * Browning X-Bolt Stalker Long Range 30-06.

I've hunted and harvested elk with many different cartridges. I've taken the knowledge of GunBlue 490 and believe there is a sweet spot as far a velocity and sectional density of the bullet. I want penetration and little capillary damage to the meat. I don't know that I could say there is a best cartridge but I do know I've relieved myself of all my magnum rifles and now the largest caliber I use is the 35 Whelen even though it's not the rifle I use the most. It all depends on where I'm hunting. The two largest elk I ever killed were with a 7mm Mauser but I've probably killed more elk with a 30-06, it just always works at any range I've attempted.

9.3x62 with 285 gr nosler partitions

I use a Browning a bolt in 325wsm. Have used 270s, 35 Whelen, 300 ultra mag. Have killed elk with all of them. The 35 is an excellent up close timber gun out to 300 yards. Didn't like the ultra, just wasn't for me. But love the wsm for elk. The combination of energy, speed, and heavy bullets is a deadly combination. Shoot 200 grain accubonds or 200 grain woodleigh weld cores. But like Randy, shoot the gun you shoot accurately and consistently.

@ethanray4064

25 күн бұрын

You don't know what you're talking about you old geezer! 6.5 Creedmoor is the elk slayer!!! 😂

Good morning Randy,I’m coming late to the party I have taken elk with every thing from a .243 to a 45-70 and a 30-30 to a 375 H&H, shot placement in my opinion is far more important than the size or speed but I do agree with your limitation on 400 yards or less I’ve taken elk, cows and bulls from 15 yards to 500 yards be confident with your chosen weapon, don’t try to make it do what it not intended for and good hunting

7 mag for elk and 7-08 for deer and smaller! 💪🇺🇸🦅💯!!! America!!!

For me - .270 with 150gr partion.

30-06 178 gr

Randy I've been watching your fresh tracks videos for years. I take some of your recommendations on a regular basis. You touted the Howa super light. Yours was in 7 mm 08 that sounded like a good caliber to me so I got one. It's a really good looking rifle and it would be really nice to carry up the mountain. It shoots a 1-inch group and then a 6-inch group, it's all over the place.Talked to the people at legacy sports international. They gave me several suggestions all of which I tried, nothing worked. They told me to send it in, which I did. I started watching some other reviews and reading some reviews. There's a bunch of people having trouble with accuracy of this particular firearm. As far as I could see all linked to the poor design of the stock. I sent that rifle to them on January 16th of this year and have had no response from them since! Does not inspired great confidence! Wondered if you'd heard anything about the problem or have any suggestions of what I might do? Still love your videos by the way!

@Fresh_Tracks

27 күн бұрын

Dang. Sorry to hear that. I have four of them. They all shoot great. Are you shooting with the rail, or not? I've had three guys report problems and when checked, the rail was loose. Check out Ron Spomer's KZread videos on the Superlight. He has had great luck with them. Tell Chad I sent you - cpeters@legacysports.com. He's a great help.

@user-ko4pe9yd4e

27 күн бұрын

Ron Spomer has a video talking about accuracy issues if you use lead and then switch to all copper bullets, not sure if that applies to your situation or not, but if it does he provides a solution to that issue.

Is a 308 ok?

Mine is a 7 SAUM.

300 model 70 Winchester

@nmelkhunter1

27 күн бұрын

Awesome combo!

338 sherman short mag is my new elk rifle. I've used 338 norma and 6.5 prc on elk previously.

A 200 gr. Remington Core-Lokt in .35 Whelen (fired from a Remington 7600 pump rifle) from "normal" ranges. Also, a 180 gr. Barnes VOR-TX and a 200 gr. Winchester PowerPoint and a 250 gr. Remington Core-Lokt--all in .35 Whelen.

I have a Remington 700 in 7mm RemMag and Weatherby Vanguard in 300 WBY. I prefer the 300 WBY for western elk hunting.

I use hand loaded 338lapua magnum loads in 300gr bullets and they have magnum penetration & knock down

Well done!

My whole camp shoots 300 wm and 300 rum. I have used both but am looking at the 7mm prc as I love my 7mm cartridges

@nt3523

26 күн бұрын

I'm a 7 guy too, but after researching the 7prc, I'm going to look elsewhere for my next cartridge. It's baffling, but the performance just isn't where I would want it.

@42N8_1

25 күн бұрын

I was also seriously considering using the the 7PRC. I have seen test where Hornady has now switched powders and the 7 PRC is not what Hornady originally reported. I also shoot 300 PRC and I shoot the 7rem mag. I will stick with the 7mm rem mag Federal TA 155 grains and the longer shots in open country I use the 300 PRC.

100% agree, Randy. I personally chose a Remington 700 BDL (comfortable fit for me) in a 7mm Rem Mag simply because the recoil is manageable, its versatility in regard to bullet weight and its flat trajectory. I have killed every elk I have shot at, just as you said about the .30 caliber rounds. I can load a light bullet for smaller game such as whitetail deer, and go heavy for the thick-skinned varmints, like elk and honestly, I don't change my scope settings much while moving from one weight to another. At least within the distance I have decided to limit myself to which is 250-300 yds. I can shoot further for sure, but I have zero interest in wounding an animal just because of wind or elevation misjudgment etc. I'd rather go home empty handed. I enjoy experimenting with different bullets, but I have found that the Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw has phenomenal potential and they have performed very well for me .... although they are no longer available without purchasing them already loaded (last I checked). So, I went to Barnes X-bullets, which have done well for me, but I am not as happy with consistent range accuracy..... they are not so bad I don't have confidence in them, it is just that I struggle achieving repeatable results regardless of practice. I may not have found the best powder match yet, but that is another topic. I have confirmed that the bullet is in fact lethal, I have no complaints aside from the minimal accuracy deviations. I enjoy the discussion, thank you. Hope to see you in the field someday soon, sir. Edit: Oh, you might be glad to know that I use Leupold scopes on all but one of my scoped firearms..... love them.

30-06 or 308

20 years ago my first choice would have been my win. M70 in 300wsm. Now days it just kicks too hard. I would have to take my mod. 70 in 270. 7/08 would be next followed by my coues rifle in 6.5 creedmoor.

My pick is the 270 win. Next 300wsm

Here’s one. The.325 WSM. Recoils about an 06. I consider that manageable. If you hit the boiler area it’ll drop right there.

Randy... loved your article in the lastest Bugle magazine!!! with respect to rifle cartridges (event though I'm an archery hunter), I am a 30-06 guy (mostly for availability). almost all my rifles are 30-06 (or .223 😛). sorry, retired Marine here. i stick to the classics.

223 with 77gr TMKs

7mm08 BARNES 145gr LRX EVEN AT 1600 FPS OR 7MM-08 150 GRAIN NOSLER ACCUBOND LONG RANGE OR .35 REMINGTON 230 grain HCFNGC at 1800 fps

I think this subject has been covered... literally weekly on You Tube. Any cartridge with a good bullet works.

Check out Randy the Physicist! Great video, fellas!

Good old tried and true aught six but I do have a 6.5 creed that's a hard hitter for it's size

The old 30-40 krag the 30-06 and the 303 British have probably taken more elk than the rest of the magnums you talk about. I'm not a fan of magnums personally just blows up your game. No substitute for shot placement .

I use a 30-06, why? Well because my dad used one.

@peterhrkal8165

27 күн бұрын

That's what every 3006 hunter says lol

Little late forvanswe4. 300 weatherby mag for elk. 6.5 prc for deer. 45-70 for bear.

Barnes TTSX. 7mm or 300

Best overall for any game is the 7 mag. You simply can’t go wrong. It will kill anything even at extended ranges.

Well done.

Interesting how many people LOVE the 270 win for elk, but HATE the 6.5 creedmoor. With comparable bullet weights, the 270 is about 250fps faster, but there’s just not that much mass to them. At under 300 yards, both should do the job just fine. Not saying don’t hate the 6.5, wondering why the 270 seems to get a pass. My answer to the question was 300win mag. Less than a 300 is a deer rifle. Give yourself some room for error. Practice. Be accurate. Know your limits. Happy hunting.

I've heard of people using a 25-06 for elk I have one but never used it for elk hunting

Randy, honest opinion, please. Im old school n grew up with old school cals. 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06, etc. Nobody heard of 25-06 in the 70's. Dreamed of having one, and now i finally do. Not a big fan of all these new cals. Prc's, creedmoores, whatev. The 25-06 never got the recognition it deserved. Now the 6.5 stuff? Im sorry, the 6.5 creed lost overall. If you ever shot a 25-06, you will appreciate this comment. I want to bring this cartridge to where it needs to be. Started way before 1969 with remington. It needs to be shown to the public through you. Tell me you dont love a 25-06, honestly. Love mine

@Fresh_Tracks

18 күн бұрын

I've never owned one. I can see why people like them.

@harryodell9497

18 күн бұрын

@@Fresh_Tracks get one! 24"

170- 190 gr flat nose 30-30. 150 yards and in.

Randy which one would you pick between 300 win and 300 wsm.

I love my 7mm rem mag with a 162 grain eld-x

Practice is everything kids ! - become “ one with your gun” , your confidence is everything !

I’ve taken elk with my 257 Weatherby, 264 win, 300 wsm and 338 win mag.

7prc baby!

I use 300 rum and I love it

My wife shot a giant bull with a 147 prc last year. I own 300wm, wsm, and 300 prc. I have a 7 mag, and 270. All shoot high bc, high sectional density rounds, all well under a minute. She shoots lights out with the 6.5 prc, and isn't confidant or comfortable with anything else. One shot at 390 dropped it in its tracks. No pass through, but it bedded itself in the hide on the exit side. I was shocked. Now loading accubond lr 150s. 1500 fl/lbs way farther than we need, with less surface area to displace, which might help with penetration.

@Halcyon1861

26 күн бұрын

The 270 guys say the 6.5 prc is just way under powered compared to the 1925 .270 grandaddies gun

@Stoiccc1

26 күн бұрын

​@@Halcyon1861 exactly.

Another biased 30 cal recommendation. 7mag shoots a 150 around 3100fps, 270win shoots a 150 around 2950fps, and a 308win shoots a 150 around 2750fps; partitions are available for all three. Monolithic bullets need velocity, and the 308win has the least - case is just smaller. Will a 308win work with a 150 partition - sure, although a 7mag or 270win will give you greater penetration and range. And a 308win shooting a 150 mono has minimal expansion at 400yds (impact velocity below 2,000fps). Not saying a 308win is bad or it won’t work, but I am not sure how you can recommend it over a 7mag or 270win.

@Idaho_Hunter

10 күн бұрын

I personally wouldn't go for a monolithic bullet in a 308 Win, just not quite enough beans, unless its like a 130 grain, which is too light in my opinion. My 308 will shoot a 165 Bonded poly tip bullet at 2775 and a 150 bonded at 2875 (confirmed with chrono). A 308 will actually with the same barrel length (22" in most hunting rifles) match the 270 velocity with the same bullet weight. Check it with a chrono, most handload books and most factory ammo biases the published numbers off of longer barrels than most hunting rifles like a 270 use. My son took his first elk last fall with a 165gr from a 308 at 500 yards. Thats the limit of that cartridge for me, but it sure did the trick, Im not into long range, and do draw the line at 400 or 500 depending on the scenario, we just couldn't get closer in open terrain and I knew he could make the shot. But I wouldn't have trusted a copper bullet from a 308 at all. I don't believe there is any real world difference on lethality between a 308 and 270. The 270 is only flatter if its using a lighter bullet. They are energy delivered twins. The 7 mag is a step up from both for sure.

Some state hunting laws require a minimum caliber bullet, in Pa it is .27 caliber.

7.5x54 with 178gr. ELD-X I've got 2 mulies and and elk with a French Mas 36 loaded to .308 specs.

@scrappydog175

21 күн бұрын

I’ve never heard of a Mas 36 being sporterized! Very cool!

@brushwolf

21 күн бұрын

@@scrappydog175 The only modifications are a Huber trigger and scope. It's still wearing its military stock. Edit; sorry it's got a muzzle brake too.

@scrappydog175

21 күн бұрын

Wow, you must’ve got one with a good barrel, I always liked that round and those guns are just neat.

Sectional density is out the window when using monolithic bullets.

.358 Norma Magnum with Barnes 225 gr ttsx.🙂

@johnkertzman3223

26 күн бұрын

I've used the 358 Norma Magnum loaded with 225 grain nosler accubond! The 358 norma mag is an elk thumper extraordinaire, it's my go-to North American big game rifle!

@NCWoodlandRoamer

25 күн бұрын

@@johnkertzman3223That seems like a fantastic cartridge! I wish it was popular. I’ve never shot or even seen one but if I had more time and money I’d probably build one.

.270 Win next 45-70...

I would use my old 30-06 I have more experience with it than any other rifle I own

308 for everything max 350 yards . That just me . 308 rounds are easy to find .

6.5 Creedmoor Fort Scott TUI ammo.

460 grain arrow with Mathews bow..... If I am going modern 7mm rem mag.

I've hunted Elk and muleys for decades. I started with a 308. Worked great out to 200idh yds. Then in 1986 I went to a 300 win mag. I'll never look back. Then I went to a bonded bullet soon after. The Swift Sirocco 180 grn. out to 400 plus yds. Kills like lightning! I live in Colorado and hunt large elk and mule deer. I concur that bullet and bullet placement are the 2 key factors bar none! Thanks and good hunting!! BTW. I have a fist full of recovered Siroccos from very dead elk. The Accubond (my son uses these) is also a great bullet in the LR, but has a thinner jacket.

Bullet type and shot placement are more important than caliber choice.

Yes I'm a 338lapua magnum and my son in-law uses the 338wm