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I found this professor very interesting. It doesn't matter that I might have other views, this man is very thoughtful and worth a listen.

Jacob- Thank you for letting him talk. He stayed on point and made more than a few new ones for me. His letting his faith show and your presenting it gracefully was much appreciated. You should also be proud to have asked a "first ever" question. That was a great question as since Thomas was the youngest he could have still had a lot of input to John

James Tabor argues that the beloved disciple is James the Brother of the Lord.

@michaelfuller34

3 ай бұрын

And Elaine Pagels pits the fourth gospel against the gospel of Thomas. (Jesus as unique gateway to salvation vs Emulation of Jesus being the way to salvation). Though that doesn’t necessarily keep Thomas from being the BD.

This is an awesome observation!!! Thomas is the hero of Gospel of John. It makes more sense that Thomas is the beloved disciple based on the meanings of the names and the meaning of the Gospel of John. The story is a hero story, the hero story (monomyth) is one of transformation. The name John means ‘Yah is gracious’. The name Thomas simply means ‘the twin’. In the Gospel of John, the hero begins with a naturalistic approach to who the character believes Jesus is and in the end having witnessed Jesus die on the cross is transformed after seeing the resurrected Jesus. The dual nature of the character from the beginning of the story to the end suggests that the nature (naturalistic to spiritual) is a twin nature like that of Cain and Abel. Thomas is transformed after realizing the man he saw physically die was resurrected. The beloved disciple is thus one that questions based on a naturalistic approach and is transformed after awakening to become a spiritual believer in the resurrection. The Thomas character is a representation of a thinker, like a Greek philosopher searching for answers (gnosis), who comes to the conclusion of the death and resurrection. Thomas is not representative of say a Peter disciple (Catholic Christians) who believes simply because someone of authority tells them to believe. The Gospel of John, from the onset with its Logos, sounds more like a philosopher. Thomas may have very well have been a disciple of Yeshua, but I feel as his character is transformed in the Gospel of John to be a metaphorical representation of the dual nature of disciples who seek and question the nature of the death and resurrection.

4:55 Dr Charlesworth: "Let us as assume that the Beloved disciple is a real disciple, not a make believe - ideal - person." Wish he had tried to justify that. That's my favorite solution. Of all the usual suspects nominated to be the Beloved disciple, one who went unmentioned here was James, the brother of Jesus. That's James Tabor's suggestion. He bases that partly on the scene in John 19 where Jesus commends the care of his mother to the BD. If BD is James, then he's handing off responsibility to his younger brother.

@joshuarichard6827

2 ай бұрын

The beLoved disciple is either mary magdalene but almost 99% certain to be a made up character

Jacob - I just wanted to say you are a good listener. Whether you agree or disagree with your guests, I appreciate that you let them talk and get their ideas out. It's a good virtue, worthy of emulation. related: you would also be one amazing poker player :D

Brilliant and thoughtful questions followed by enlightening responses. Thank as always Jacob and as well as to your guest Dr Charlesworth.

Thank you so much for sharing this with us all. So much to ponder however I really appreciated the conclusions. Another kindred spirit.

20:00 this is one of the main reasons why history valley remains one of my favourite youtube channels.

I enjoyed listening to this and learned a lot. As a retired public school teacher, I was dismayed to hear that children in public school had to study New Testament. I don't see us as being a judeo-christian country. I see this is being free to believe or not. Much as I love jesus, the Bible should not be part of a Public School curriculum. I Think Jesus would say as much because of that freedom & curiosity issue the professor brought up. And I don't think God picked America to have any favored nation status and if He did (or we were), that ship has since sailed (2024)

Excellent. I haven't seen Charlesworth interviewed elsewhere at all.

Interesting talk, but Thomas is not the beloved disciple. According to John 20:8, when the BD entered the empty tomb, "he saw and believed." He didn't question. He didn't doubt. He believed. That's a stark contrast with Thomas.

@seanhogan6893

3 ай бұрын

But then it says that they did not yet understand that Jesus had to rise from the dead. Could his belief at that stage simply be that the body wasn't there? Mary said it had been taken and they didn't know where. (I still think the BD is meant to be John)

@mytwocents7481

3 ай бұрын

@@seanhogan6893 "Could his belief at that stage simply be that the body wasn't there?" I don't think so. Everyone at the tomb saw that the body wasn't there so everyone present believed that. The narrator is indicating that the BD believed something that others did not. I think the BD is a literary fiction.

@joshuarichard6827

2 ай бұрын

@@seanhogan6893bd is a made up character

@joshuarichard6827

2 ай бұрын

@@mytwocents7481it is

Yet it was Peter who was commanded to feed the sheep.

@joshuarichard6827

2 ай бұрын

@@alirowan1999all the gospels are fabricated

Professor, you did not make the case. Thomas wanted physical evidence, yet he did not place his hand in the wound/flesh of Jesus as instructed to. He simply made the explanation ‘my Lord and my God.”

Excellent!

I enjoyed this and remain open on the subject. Tabor says James was the beloved disciple and his reasoning works as well.

@garlandjones7709

Ай бұрын

Tabor also says Paul doesn't see Jesus as divine in Phillipians 2 where he both says that he is about as explicit as it can get, and then applies an Isaiah quote to him calling him YHVH.

Hi Jacob, love your channel and insights. Say, what brand/type of microphone do you use?

@History-Valley

3 ай бұрын

At the time of that interview, I used a Blue Yeti microphone and as for my current microphone, that one is an EV RE20.

"Jesus Never Existed" with Ken Humphries works for me.

I am still waiting for the rational, logical argument that proves Thomas to be the “beloved disciple”. The arguments make no sense.

My query in 6th grade after informed that the work of salvation was done on the cross was what about salvation required Him to be naked. There are other ways to die. Some may be more painful than straight crucifixion. I have over>50 years come up with some ideas.

Just because the Beloved Disciple is called a ‘disciple’ does not mean he was one of the 12. It means ‘learner’ I.e student. John 6:60,66 states that Jesus has many ‘disciples’ that stopped following him and 7:3 may refer to disciples living in Judea.

@jonathanhorton4607

3 ай бұрын

The beloved disciple could be left unnamed because he was the son of Jesus, and when Jesus said to see to your mother, it could've meant Mary Magdala

Peter was not crucified upside down. That was from a banned gospel

John Mark,was the 'Beloved Disciple'.

good one. Except for the preaching.

Why would the author of John refer to Thomas as the beloved disciple in some passages and refer to him as Thomas in other passages? There are about 6 references of each type. It's not just a careless mistake on the author's part. Why would an author go back and forth like that?

18:56 "As you point out that Thomas, just like the Beloved Disciple, they both are described as having doubted Jesus or questioning, wanting more evidence, and later both are described as having come around to believing fully in Jesus." That certainly applied to Thomas, but I don't see that in the case of the BD. Where does BD ever question Jesus or ask for more evidence? In Chapter 13, he asks Jesus for the name of the betrayer, but nothing there suggests either he or Peter doubted that there would be a betrayal. Where does BD "come around?" Maybe you're referring to 20:8 where the BD has seen the empty tomb and the narrator tells us "He saw and believed" which implies that he didn't believe previously, but this is actually evidence against BD = Thomas. At 20:8, BD has become a believer. Thomas only catches up with him in 20:28.

It was Lazarus

@jojivarghese5105

Ай бұрын

Right

Thank You. I found this argument very compelling ! I am convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was very well educated, probably by his genetic father who employed Greek tutors. Hence JESUS valued truth above All and expected it to be tested and proven . This was always demanded by Greek tutors! Therefore JESUS greatly appreciated a student who continually questioning in pursuit of TRUTH,

@stephenargent4010

3 ай бұрын

Assumptions that Jesus was highly educated have little supporting evidence

@garlandjones7709

Ай бұрын

​​@@stephenargent4010he was educated in Jewish legal law if the gospels are accurate. If you look at his arguments with Pharisees he obviously had a very high IQ.

@stephenargent4010

Ай бұрын

@@garlandjones7709I would not dispute his IQ just his education in languages. Although the likelihood he worked in Sepphoris might well have exposed him to Greek

Thomas’ name was Judas aka Didymos aka Thaddeus and Lebbaeus In Kfar Baruch a 1st century ce ossuary was found inscribed Judas Thaddeus. This is right beside the town that is now called Nazareth. Nobody has looked into this. Could be that there was another 1st century ce guy from “Nazareth” named Judas Thaddeus but it’s intriguing.

I found this deeply unconvincing and bit preachy at times.

Doesn’t Tertullian first write about the futility of questioning the given theology and scripture? Questions have answers that can be messy.

This is nonsense. It says right in the gospel of John who the beloved disciple is! See John 11: 2-3: "Lord, he whom you love is ill." It's Lazarus.

@stephenargent4010

Ай бұрын

So Jesus only loved Lazarus?

@youtubeaccount3230

Ай бұрын

The fact you actually believe in the Gospel of John says it all, the same man is a scholar for the Gospel of John

A massive assumption made 5.14 if the BD is a real person we must assume he was one of 5he disciples mention in the gospel…why?

The question here should be why John did not want to reveal the name of the disciple in the first place. I think there was a good reason for not revealing it. I think the secret lies at the breakfast by the lake chapter. Jesus and Peter had a disagreement, about the beloved who accompanied him. Peter questions the wisdom of his association with him. That tells me that he was talking about Judas. If someone tempered with John, it may be tempered to disguise his identity.

@joshuarichard6827

2 ай бұрын

21 is forged

I was thinking it was Lazarus: John 11: 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! John 20: 1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

@patricktilton5377

3 ай бұрын

You make a good case for the BD being Lazarus. The only potential problem is whether Lazarus was one of the Disciples -- i.e. on of the Twelve. Jesus may have 'loved' Lazarus (etc.) but Lazarus isn't named as one of the Twelve, so can he be the 'beloved disciple'? The disciple whom Jesus loved? We need to take into account, also, that the 'name' THOMAS means 'Twin', as does the Greek word 'didymus', but WHOSE TWIN was he? Could 'Lazarus' have been the actual NAME of the disciple known as "the Twin" (i.e. Thomas Didymus = 'twin twin')? The name 'Lazarus' is another form of the name 'Eleazar', and Joseph Atwill (the author of CAESAR'S MESSIAH) contends that the actual 'messiah' touted by the Jews who rebelled against Rome c. 66 CE was named Eleazar. The character Lazarus from JOHN was -- like Jesus -- raised from the dead, making him and Jesus have that in common. Atwill's interpretation of the Lazarus story has it that we're told in sly terms that "they made him [Lazarus] a supper" . . . i.e. that Lazarus was made INTO a supper, a cannibalistic feast, not that a supper was made FOR him to eat after he had been resurrected. Atwill links this cannibalism -- as well as the Last Supper's Bread-and-Wine substitution for Jesus' Body-and-Blood -- to the infamous Cannibal Mary scene in Josephus' JEWISH WAR. Atwill has it that the last and 21st chapter of JOHN contrasts the fates of Simon Peter and the BD -- who supposedly is 'John' -- because, according to Atwill, those two characters in the gospel are spoofs of the two messianic Jews whom Titus captured: Simon Peter's fate was to suffer crucifixion -- which fate befell the 'Simon' whom Titus captured -- whereas 'John' was allowed to live, though the reason Titus spared him was so that he could assist in the invention of Christianity so as to supplant the Messianic Judaism that had been the ideological fuel which ignited the Rebellion against Rome.

@onika700

3 ай бұрын

@@patricktilton5377 Interesting. You have a good point about the twelve, but Jesus had many more than 12 disciples (followers) and there could have been more there, but the authors just focused on the ones who would become apostles. The reason I say this is because of what is written in Acts 1: 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. In reference to Atwill: John 12: 1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. For whom did they make the supper? Jesus Maybe Atwill doesn't know his grammar, and takes things out of context.

@patricktilton5377

3 ай бұрын

@@onika700 Regarding Atwill, you really ought to read his book "CAESAR'S MESSIAH" -- especially in regards to the Lazarus story. The grammar of that passage is ambiguous: one tends to read "they made FOR him a supper" rather than than "they made (OUT) OF him a supper" -- and that ambiguity makes the cannibal-theme all-the-more devious.

@onika700

3 ай бұрын

@@patricktilton5377 A dead man can't sit with people at table.

Arabic has a tone of different tenses, he is wrong on that. I always questioned though, who knows what the meaning of different words were at 2000 BC without a dictionary of that period. The character attributes he lists to identify the beloved equally applies to a conniving businessmen like Judas, who does everything necessary to endear himself to his boss. There is no merit to his scholarship.

"Oral tradition" means people listening and TAKING NOTES. Learn how Hegel only wrote 2 books. The rest are notes. Aristotle's students wrote down and synchronized his numerous Treatise. Real life is NEVER like a scribbling for a "pop quiz" in grade school or college. No copyrights. Not such notions.

mark 14. 51

John may have visited Jerusalem, but that does not make him anymore reliable than someone else. He is furthest from Jesus temporally. Pointing this out, he is also saying that none of authors of 3 others have visited Jerusalem. I think the Gospel writers were Greek professional scribes of Alexandria, who had the authority to make the books more interesting, and changed them as they liked. Each copy they produced was a new book.

@garlandjones7709

Ай бұрын

They would've had to have known Hebrew for at least Matthew and John if that be true

If that's "powerful evidence" I'd hate to see weak speculation.

Yes, Jesus was making a lot of money out of healing the sick. Some of those healings did not go right. Probably that is the reason why he was punished, and the money man talked against him. After he died, Judas, the money men, found someone looking like him to revive the business.

If you don't know the difference between historical and historizing then superman is historical. John is as unhistorical as the other 3 gospels, and the fact that John suppresses Simon of Cyrene does not remedy that. Sorry but the preaching involved here proves that John's gospel is not one jota more historical than the other gospels.

The Living Bible?! That's not a translation! It is an interpretation! And the interpretation is wrong far too much of the time! I cannot believe any scholar would quote from it! So I just lost interest.

The original scriptures were in hebrew , God never mention there's going to be a new testament , never said there's going to be a man coming to die for anyone's sins

@michaelfuller34

3 ай бұрын

Didn’t mention, atom bombs, quantum theory or iPhones either. What is your point?

@garlandjones7709

Ай бұрын

John was probably originally written in Hebrew

@michaelfuller34

Ай бұрын

@@garlandjones7709, by an Aramaic speaking fisherman?

@garlandjones7709

Ай бұрын

@@michaelfuller34 it should be pretty well accepted by now those guys spoke Hebrew.

@michaelfuller34

Ай бұрын

@@garlandjones7709, outside of apologetic circles, I think you will find that the scholarly consensus is that Hebrew was not the dominant language in the Galilee during at the time of Jesus.

He reminds me of the guy whose favorite Beatle was Ringo. He sure stood out in a crowd. Not only, but that guy probably also *believed* that Ringo was the real composer of all the major Beatles' hits. Evidence? Who needs evidence? All you have to do is *believe.* His best bet would be to keep his day job in ancient languages, possibly only grammar and syntax without venturing into semantics and etymology. (Jesus preached his parables in Greek?)