It’s really Hackett vs No Hackett and the No Hackett doesn’t hack it.

@chrishackett554

3 ай бұрын

Recently saw Hacketts tour celebrating Foxtrot. Amazing show!

@youmothershouldknow4905

3 ай бұрын

@@chrishackett554 I’m sure! I’ve only seen the video clips oh his shows, and they appear really great.

@RO-uz4oi

17 күн бұрын

They were a better band with Hackett, and without him they were still the best!

@youmothershouldknow4905

17 күн бұрын

@@RO-uz4oi agreed They were still amazing

@billjones8503

Күн бұрын

They did put out one good album when Steve left imho. ATTW3. Duke wasn't bad also, but they had turned the corner, I Listened to it for a little while, but wore off fairly soon.

Record sales mean nothing. It's the music that matters.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

This is not correct. There is a correllation between percieved quality and popularity

@user-dh9me5ug4x

11 күн бұрын

Perceived only thruogh the lens of commercial gain not artistic value.​@AndyEdwardsDrummer

i think the argument should be "Genesis after Hackett's departure".

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 ай бұрын

More accurate, less compelling

I was very worried indeed. I could live without the collins period but couldn't live without the Gabriel era albums. That's why I would give a 1 for Gabriel on personal taste as well. Great video. The importance of the machine in actually proving that prog is superior can't be overstated. I can sleep much better now.

I was glad to see you treat this subject with the seriousness it deserves. Divining objective truth is a solemn task that must not be punctured by whimsy. To that end, you conducted yourself with the decorum and gravity that I have come to expect. You have my deepest respect, sir.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

Did you enjoy it? If you did my job is done

Old King Cole was a merry old soul, and a merry old soul was he.

@thecroft6070

Күн бұрын

And the clock...

"The Superio-meter has broken KZread" Gold.😆

I am 56 and “Three Sides Live” was not only the first Genesis album I purchased, it was the first album I purchased with my own money, the second album was “Genesis Live” which was released in the US at a discount price and I found it in the discount bin at my local supermarket that was a hypermarket which carried everything from groceries, to clothes to gardening supplies to toys and albums and it was on the Charisma label, not Atlantic as all there releases in the US, so I thought that was cool.

It's the sound, it's the music, it's the emotion... forget the analysing. I don't draw a distinction between PG and PC until about 1980 after Duke when they morphed into Phil's backing group. Prior to that it was majestic musical story telling all through. Always progressive but rarely 'prog' in the chaotic self-indulgent keyboard sense like Emerson and sometimes Wakeman. Usually classically structured, so even Mozart might understand it. I feel better now!!!

The first Genesis album I purchased was Wind and Wuthering. I wasn't overwhelmed. I bought Peter Gabriel's first album soon after and became hooked to pre-Lamb Genesis.

This had me in stitches. Excellent ! Long live the SUPER-I-OMETER !

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

9 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Time changes bands. They were never going to stay the same, with or without Gabriel. Look at Rush. Same three guys forever. An incredible transformation over time.

The second time I saw the band was in 1982 on the "Three Sides Live" tour. They played the entirety of Supper's Ready. I was fortunate to see them play it at Pine Knob outside of Detroit. It was amazing and to see that performed was worth the ticket price alone. Many of the newer fans were perplexed. For me, I was in Genesis music heaven. During Supper's many new fans got up to get a drink or went to the toilet. For the first encore they played the short instrumental version of Watcher Of The Skies. I prefer everything Genesis did up to and including Duke. I wonder if Genesis performed Supper's Ready on this tour as preparation for the upcoming gig later that year with Gabriel at Milton Keynes.

@TheAmarok87

7 күн бұрын

"Supper's Ready" and "Watcher of the Skies" were performed to honour the 10th anniversary of "Foxtrot" in 1982.

When Phil Collins’ actor/ producer daughter Lily was asked which of all her father’s songs was her favourite, she replied “I Can’t Dance”. Fair enough, Lily.

Much as I like Rutherford's bass playing and Collin's drumming, it was Hackett that was my "gateway drug" to enjoying Pre-Phildo Genesis.

I believe they really had 3 distinct periods. Gabriel period, Post Gabriel up to and including 1980’s ‘Duke’,( much less difference in what the band was up to in those periods than fans tend to express), and the dramatic shift that occurred between Duke and Abacab,( and everything thereafter). The band may feel there’s the same continuity between them as there ever was but I think they’re probably too close to it. On Duke they were a concise but future sounding modern prog band for the new decade. On Abacab it leaps into adult orientated 80’s pop-rock, albeit at the very quirky end relative to other 70’s bands getting all 80’s on our ass at the time.

@jdmresearch

10 ай бұрын

Agreed. I hadn't read your comment, and wrote something similar... Though I'm not sure the shift is between Duke and Abacab, I think it was a somewhat gradual change over the years, and the big shift was with Invisible Touch.

@UCS0608

10 ай бұрын

This is absolutely true, David. I'm a Genesis-fan since 72, I saw the band both with and without Peter, with and without Steve and after Abacab (the last tour I saw, it was the infamous "Booing-concert" in Leiden, the Netherlands, October 3, 1981) the band lost me. I follow Peter until this day and saw him live on many occasions. This video means absolutely nothing to me. It's just a lot of words and wether he likes it or not, it's all a matter of taste. My top-3 albums are The Lamb, Selling England and Foxtrot. BTW, The Lamb "The Lamb lies down in Broadway"....??? Ouch! 😊

@davidwylde8426

10 ай бұрын

@@jdmresearch I like your reply and simultaneously disagree. But I’m sure the disagreement would dissipate over time as a conversation went on 👍🏻

@davidwylde8426

10 ай бұрын

@@UCS0608 I can see where you are coming from. But if you muddle through his satire and arrive at what he actually thinks, it would probably be simultaneously aligned with your views and misaligned. He’s a free spirit and I rate his opinion

@jdmresearch

10 ай бұрын

​@@davidwylde8426 Yes, I agree. Honestly, I'm most fond of the albums from the Gabriel era. However, I believe ATOAT and W&W come close in quality, and in some ways, they're even more consistent. Following those, I have a soft spot for the next two albums, especially ATTWT, which I consider the most underrated in the entire Genesis catalogue... but I prefer the previous two. I appreciate Abacab and 'Genesis' as they have good moments -- high musicianship too. But they don't resonate with me as much as the earlier albums. I once disliked them, but my opinion has evolved over time. As for the subsequent albums, I hate them; but who's to say that won't change in the future?

There were a number of factors across those years: 1. Advances in technology affected the sounds available for use 2. Changes in the artists' vocal and playing capabilities 3. The tensions between self-expression and marketability, including pressure from the record companies. Etc. The entire catalog can be appreciated, though we all have our own tastes and preferences (which can change over time).

The Super-i-ometer has spoken. Science cannot be denied!

I nearly suffocated laughing at Stonehenge by Spinal Tap, and I nearly suffocated laughing at this.

Of course, the Gabriel era is the best- the Collin’s era doesn’t exist without it. That being said, two of my favorite albums of theirs are what I call the transition albums: “A Trick of the Tail” & “Wind & Wuthering” which bridge the gap between the classic Gabriel band and the multi-platinum prog-pop band they would evolve into.

I personally think that "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" are more akin to "Foxtrot" and "Selling England By The Pound" than the later Collins-era albums.

5.17 can hear the wind outside your place

Well done Andy, well done!

My favourite albums are Trick of The Tail and Wind & Wuthering which are very proggy so I don't think these albums should be lumped in with the 'Collins' era after 1980 which was aimed at a different audience entirely. Fun video though Andy, cheers!

I do appreciate your relative objectivity with your superiometer. I have a comment about technical ability. While yes, they do have Chester and Daryl, they didn't play on the studio albums. And overall, the difficulty of the music went down from Abacab on. So I would have given that point to Gabriel. But on the other hand, I would have given production to Collins.

Andy you are fantastic! I love this channel. Keep the content coming. Cheers from Canada.

Your channel is great. Amazing work. Thanks a lot.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoy it!

Each has their own charm. A win for me since I was into the Phil era first. I was born in 1973 so I grew up with Abacab and Mama. Then I discovered the Gabriel end and got even more excited. Win!

I love Hackett's nuance.

I totally agree with the Hackett theory. Trick of the Tail was amazing. But And Then There Were Three was also very good. Nobody ever seems to just think that maybe they got tired of doing prog and conjuring English fairy tales as lovely as they are?

What about "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering"? Perhaps there are actually three phases of Genesis.

@MrMaynardWR

10 ай бұрын

The Hackett era

Phew, for a few seconds there I was worried. Proper Genesis is the best Genesis. Hurray for the SUPERIOR I METER

Andy, if you've hooked the SUPER-I-OMETER to the internet, then you've taken us one step closer to Colossus. Soon the Auto-Tune engine will attempt to integrate, and then things might get a little problematic. But as long as you keep it strictly separate from any paisley, I think you will be okay.

Very amusing. Very whimsical but entertaining. Best band won

For me there is no debate it's all great. Been a fan forever Pete left and they continued Steve left and still kept making great music. It's tough to compare 1970s to 1990s music changes and most bands do as well. Not many bands can say they've they've around for 60 years and Phil Tony and Mike deserve a lot of credit still touring and still sound awesome

The question should be: Genesis with or without Steve Hackett.

❤❤❤❤ilove phil Collins ever

I was entertained.

There is no comparison!! Genesis =Gabriel+Hackett!! 🎉hands down!!

Andy built quite a machine! Could we try that for the Electric Light Orchestra? ELO did a couple of weird, creative albums, then came the great *Eldorado* with its 1940's narration and swirling orchestration. They were still unique by the time they did *Out of the Blue* but I tune out when I hear '80's stuff like *Xanadu* and "Don't Bring Me Down."

For me, whether it's Pete or Phil, if Hackett is missing, they seem to be lacking that magic...

@palacerevolution2000

10 ай бұрын

I'm not even sure that this is the 'right' answer, but I definitely think it is right in the thick of it. That magical touch for the right chemistry doesn't necessarily need to come from the front of the stage. We also see that in sports teams. Or with the Rolling Stones IMO it was the loss of Bill Wyman that was the one they never could come back from. I recently saw a long interview with Collins where he said that he thought Hackett didn't have much groove. That surprised me. Sure, Hackett on his own, probably was pretty cerebral. But in the context of Genesis, I think he really brought it on all fronts. Yes, I definitely agree with you.

@jimmycampbell78

10 ай бұрын

I do like Trespass and I think this is where the Genesis 70s sound is formed. It’s Anthony Phillips on that album rather than Hackett.

@KitKrash

10 ай бұрын

You might be right. The first few albums are alright but not masterpieces. It only really kicks off after Hackett and Collins joined.

@jimmycampbell78

10 ай бұрын

I would argue that the big leap is from Genesis to Revolution to Trespass. Not from Trespass to Nursery Cryme/Foxtrot etc. The first album was Jonathan King trying to get his classmates to record some 60s pop hits. I am a fan of Steve Hackett but do not discount Anthony Phillips. I think Trespass lays the ‘template’ for those 70s albums that come after.

@MrMaynardWR

10 ай бұрын

The Hackett era is the best. Trick of the Tail and Wind and the Wuthering are terrific albums along with the Albums from the GAbriel era that featured Hackett

Genesis is my favourite band and means a lot to me. Trespass - W&W are my favourite albums by Genesis but if I have to pick a favourite quite often I would say my favourite is ATOTT. So considering that, this was an interesting video to watch. Your points are very well said

I fucking love the superiometer.

Great fun, as always. I bought all the Genesis albums more or less as they came out, until Gabriel left. If you haven't seen it, there's a video called: Genesis Documentary - Selling England By The Pound. I enjoyed it visually as much as anything - as one should with Genesis related material. I've recently reconstituted my deck, and am listening to the album as I type - on original vinyl : ) Firth of Fifth... wow.

Love them both equally! Hate the BS stuff of course!!! I made it all the way through “And Then Their Were Three”. After that it was to much like searching for a cornel of corn.

You are a goof aren’t you! Luv it!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

This is a very serious business

I love prog epics but my favourite Genesis album is Trick of the Tail, which has no epics - just one outstanding track after another, seamlessly blending musical adventure and emotion.

@dth5283

10 ай бұрын

Same here

🌠DUUUuuDE..Andy..Great Video..& Funny at times

Thank goodness for the Super-I-Ometer. I don't worry so much any more about which bands are the best in head-to-head competition, because those questions can now be objectively answered. By the way, I think a heard a broken ball bearing in your Super-I-Ometer when it was warming up. Might want to to take it into the shop and get some work done on it.

“Trick of the tail” is the equal of most of the great prog albums .. Genesis or otherwise. 😀 When Steve Hackett left they became another band but they still carried the spirit of foundational Genesis and were still a truly great band .. esp’ live.

The fact that we have a Superi-Ometer means I'm definitely in the right place for Prog. Oh the endless Pearl-Clutching we do.....

Great comparison, but I feel that the Gabriel / Collins dichotomy created an odd void into which "A Trick of The Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering" fell (both are truly tops for me). Yes, Gabriel is not present but are they really Collins-era albums? They have much in common with the early 70's compositions. A far more noticeable shift occurred once Hackett left as demonstrated by "...And Then There Were Three...". That one really marks the birth of the Collins-era. Anyway, whatever. I f**king love Genesis. Gimme, gimme, gimme!

Well, we all fear that AI could be a force for evil, but this show clearly indicates that it can do nothing but good. Gabriel vs. Collins has been a contentious issue for decades, and now we can incontrovertibly support this rock-solid scientific conclusion and turn our swords into plough shares. Andy, you are truly a man of peace and the Nobel Prize for Physics and Peace must surely be in the mail. Birmingham Small Arms meets Nobel gunpowder. Explosive and groundbreaking!

Hilarious! 😀

With no calibration and with the Shakti album in the background I was afraid the Superi-o-meter would give the wrong results.

Always silly - the way I like! ❤ 😂👍

One more thing I'd like to add: From Genesis to Revelation is not such a bad album. Although Jonathan King smothered it in syrupy background orchestrations (a lot like Phil Spector did to The Beatles Let it Be) the tunes are already there, and not just in an embryonic form. I think that if they'd taken these songs and combined them or fleshed them out a bit more, it would have counted as the first true Genesis album. I recommend taking another listen sometime.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

I agree...and thought i said as much. But it isn't Foxtrot

Although I agree with most of the things you said, I’d just like make a few remarks about things that struck me while watching. Ironically, it starts off with the basic premise: Gabriel or Collins era. Now, to my mind the Genesis was split into two parts, but not the way you name, but in my mind the first era goes up to (and including) Duke, and the second era begins with Abacab. What makes this awkward of course is that Collins was in both your eras. Not tragic though, because what you say remains unchanged, regardless. The next point concerns what you said about technical ability. Thompson and Sturmer were never members of the band and only used for live performances, where they echoed the creations of the original Genesis members laid down in the studio. I don’t think they should be a factor in determining the technical ability. So, to my mind this point would be split 50/50, if you disregard growing ability through experience and practise. Now, just on a private point: The Lamb is the only Genesis album I actively dislike. The reason, I think, is that to my ears the sound is too brittle and the melodies lack the lushness of any of the albums before Abacab. It’s their only album that I can’t listen to in one sitting. It’s also the only Genesis album that doesn’t have the English Factor (the F is capitalised on purpose). Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree with the points you make. But anyway, thanks for the video, I enjoyed the hell out of it. Take care.

For me this isn't even remotely close. Peter Gabriel Genesis by miles. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway is my favourite Genesis album and it might be my favourite Progressive Rock album period. There are so many beautiful and emotional moments on that album. Selling England By The Pound, Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme... The entire Gabriel era was and is incredible.

Personally, I consider Trespass through Wind and Wuthering to be classic Genesis. Just what I enjoy most.

As the resident Genesis expert I’ve got to give it our boy Andy It’s about right via the superiorometer A more nuanced conversation is available via nobody so I’m giving Andy a 100%

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

Thanks David...I have a video where I go through the 10 greatest unsung Prog Albums and Trick of The Tail is in there. In reality it is perhaps Genesis' best album, but we all want that one to be an album with Gabriel on it. The real cut off is Wind and Wuthering>And Then There Were Three. That would be the more nuanced comparison but nuane don't work on KZread

@davidwylde8426

10 ай бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I do think I’ve seen that one, but I think I’ll go and revisit it anyway 👍

@davidwylde8426

10 ай бұрын

⁠@@AndyEdwardsDrummerI was incorrect, I hadn’t seen it,( I must have heard you reference Trick Of The Tail on another vid). It is a great album, the only thing being that I heard and owned ‘Seconds Out’ first and just have a fondness for their live versions,( they always seem to slightly refine the songs by the time they’re touring them).

For the record, I love every Genesis record from 1968 - 1983. After Phil Collins' big-selling solo records, though, it seemed like every Genesis record sounded like his solo records. One of my favorite Genesis songs is "Mama." However, I believe that all real music afficionados KNOW which line-up of Genesis is superior.

It is a metric of human advancement that in 2013 I would look forward to waking up on Saturday morning after a Friday night gig to horizontally watch F1 or soccer on a big hdtv, but now, catapulted into the metaverse like a space monkey, I can have morning coffee enjoying delightful content such as this. Very satisfying. The Super-i-o-meter calibration sequence was well crafted, surreal, and lol. I am glad Gabriel Genesis won, though with 80’s kid nostalgia for Collins’s Genesis and solo stuff…once you make an album like Both Sides? Gabriel automatically wins, just look at his solo stuff. He managed to go platinum while still staying weird and not selling out. Phil wins on drumming. And catchy DX-7 horn lines.

Tony Banks Genesis is my favorite,.lol, ..................Steve Hackett's playing on Wind and wuthering, is fantastic., and I also really like Calling all Stations, i saw them on the "then there were 3 tour" Knebworth 78" great show, Brand X were the opening act at that concert, what a day off music that was,

There were 3 other live albums in the Phil era besides “Seconds Out” and “Three Sides Live” , 2 from the “we Can’t Dance” tour, “The Way We Walk” “The Longs” and “The Shorts” and one from their 2007 reunion tour “Live In Europe”.

Maybe Tony Banks is the solution. Love your work. JT

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

.............to everything!

Great video. I grew up with 80s Genesis and didn’t really care for what little I heard of 70s. Now I can barely stand to listen to their 80s output and I absolutely adore their 70s work that said I do think trick of the tail and Duke are excellent albums and when it comes to influence obviously progressive rock Genesis was hugely influential, but so was the 80s band on that whole 80 sound. And then similarly innovation I would give that to Peter Gabriel era but Phil Collins drum sound in the 80s was hugely innovative.

@seabud6408

10 ай бұрын

Trick of the tail is one of the best albums .. by anyone.

@Rick-jg8vx

10 ай бұрын

Thank you for saying that. Because that album always kind of gets forgotten I think possibly because it’s the first album without Peter. But to me the songs on Shrek are so perfect so melodic and so beautiful. Lamb lies down on Broadway is my favorite Genesis album, but that trick of the tail is number two.

Best Genesis was the run of albums from Nursery Cryme to the cryminally underrated And Then There Was Three , no question about that . I think the SUPER - I - OMETER got it about right . I enjoyed the show .

My favourite Genesis have change since my teenage years. Then it as Nursry Cryme, Costs of and SEbtP, now it is solidly a Trick of the Tail, Wind and Wuthering and Duke, they completely lost me after that though. I like Riley Walker's taken on them though, he likes them all regardless of era and I don't think he was necessarily alive when they released most of their albums..

I call BS on this whole exercise. It's not about Gabriel vs. Collins, it's about 70s vs. 80s, prog vs. pop. You forget about Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering which were full-on prog fronted by Collins. And conversely there is the quite un-prog, post-Genesis Gabriel. Again, it's about the different eras.

The intermediate period with A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering is my favourite, while Hackett was still around. All the goodness of Genesis without the filler/inconsistency and cringe of Gabriel-era.

@drj602

10 ай бұрын

Wow, very interesting comment. Although cringe may be a little too honest.🤭

@grahamharley4895

10 ай бұрын

Mid era was my favourite although I'd push it as far as ATTW3 and Duke (cue groans from the purists?) Said above, later morphing into Phil's backing group changed everything for the worse I think.

@christophernoble289

9 ай бұрын

TotT is a great album.

@christophernoble289

9 ай бұрын

Prog wins? The Return of the Giant Hogweed is a cautionary tale.

My main problem with Phil was the way he treated Chester Thompson. I think Chester had a big influence on the records and without a doubt a highlight of hearing them live.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

i absolutely agree. some here don't. The best thing about the Collins era band is the double drumming on Seconds Out and Three Sides

@johannhauffman323

10 ай бұрын

Yes, and experiencing a live show, Chester was the rocks. Thanks for all you do Andy. I would support you More on patrion but I am on limited income. With a bad back. Please play all the music you can before old age takes it toll.@@AndyEdwardsDrummer

@jdmresearch

10 ай бұрын

@@johannhauffman323 Chester is an exceptional drummer... but, while it might be an unpopular opinion, I firmly believe that the '76 live shows featuring B Bruford, like the British Biscuit at Hammersmith Odeon, are unparalleled. Performances of 'Live Cinema Show', 'Robbery, Assault & Battery', and 'Supper's Ready' with dual drumming - with BB focusing more on percussion and allsorts, reminiscent of Muir's style in '72 Crimson - are simply unmatched. Also, I believe Phil was arguably at his peak in '75 and '76. The performances from '77 onwards are great of course, and while some might argue that BB wasn't as fluid as Chester, possibly due to limited rehearsal time, I still maintain that the '76 live shows were the pinnacle. Regrettably, Bill's demeanor during that period was less than ideal, which likely contributed to the short-lived collaboration (in addition to BB different interests).

The superiometer is a boon to society. It provides objective solutions to difficult problems. This allows people to stop fretting and arguing with each other. That reduces animosity and creates peace. It's marvellous. Perhaps you could adapt the superiometer to compare capitalism and communism.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

I did...capitalism won by a mile

@Pwecko

10 ай бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I thought it might.

Like you Andy, I came in with the Collins era with Seconds Out in my case. It was the gradual trend to a more poppy sound that made me investigate the older songs. That and hearing the original Supper's Ready on The Friday Rock Show. Abacab has the frankly unlistenable Who Dunnit but then they pulled off a gorgeous pop song in That's All onthe next one.

@rk41gator

10 ай бұрын

That "Who Dunnit" was a horrible mistake. Why? Just to be cheeky. It was a waste of good space on the vinyl. A low point that brought down a rather good album.

@grahamnunn8998

10 ай бұрын

There was way better on contemporary b-sides.

Chamber of 32 Doors

Too funny! This is really something. At least the result was correct.

3:19 Your Superi-o-meter sounds suspiciously like my washing machine. Maybe I'll ask it some questions later.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

It's definitely not your washing machine, I can vouch for that

Love both era’s , Phil Collins only person on the planet at the time that could fill PG’ shoes , first saw Genesis in Milton Keynes on the reunion tour , last concert the last Domino tour , so I’ve been on the journey, personally Gabriel’s Genesis my favourite but wouldn’t knock Collins either.

Gabriel wasn't prog after Genesis, Genesis was prog after Gabriel. You can't expect art rock-prog after 1978 and both went with their fair share of pop music, but it was always a breath of fresh air when either of these 2 got played on the radio in the early 80's. I guess Rutherford and Banks don't pretty much run Genesis, It's Phil and it has always been him calling the shots, that bastard! I digress, I hate fanboys because they stop listening and then they don't know what they are talking about. The 1976- 1977 was Genesis at its peak and set the stage for everything that followed which was excellent shows thru 2007. Keep it Dark.

Andy, I just want to thank you for your channel. Like you, I have a massive record and CD collection and although I think I might listen to more genres on a daily basis, my absolute epicenter centerpoint for my musical taste is right, where Prog rock and fusion meet. Which is clearly where you spend a lot of your time and your videos. I really enjoy your sense of humor and your insightful commentary. So here’s a suggestion for a video. Find 10 albums that are right at the Nexus between Prog rock and fusion. Where are you could almost bring out some sort of meter to gauge does it mean more for Prog or does it lean more towards Fusion? For example, Return to Forever is clearly a fusion band but the latter album, romantic warrior is right on that cusp. Or what about soft machine third? 7:53

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

Great idea...I will do it...

Collins should never have chosen to step out from behind his drum kit, or been allowed to. Personally, I have never bought into the whole myth of the group being unable to find a suitable replacement vocalist - and so, reluctantly Phil stepped up. Collins had been adding harmony vocals from the outset, and soloed on the god awful More Fool Me - tainting the brilliance of Selling England by the Pound. Hackett was the only saving grace of the two post Gabriel recordings. Gabriel shot his load with The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, never to achieve such an orgasmic climax again! As for the bands output in the late 70s and beyond - a very long criminal recording career!

One more second and this video would clock in at 21:12...

The first Genesis album I bought was Genesis Live on the Charisma label. I was the only person listening to Genesis at my high school but I really enjoyed what I heard. I really lost interest in Genesis after Duke and to this day, I almost exclusively listen to Gabriel Genesis. Wonderful early band with some bright spots in their later life but very few IMO.

Though Phil gets the blame for the pop turn, what he really brought in was the technical musicianship in a way they didn’t have previous and the jazz-fusion leanings. The albums were still proggy to the end if you listen outside the hits.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

I agree with all that, I'm a big Phil Collins fan

'Sensible prog fans, I have no power over them.'

Very entertaining Andy. But as you mentioned yourself a bit unfair. If a band of young lads aged 20/21 gets a record like " Nursery Cryme" as their third attempt out, a real Masterpiece it's just astounding. But 5 more consecutive masterpieces in the next 5 years is breathtaking. They were 25/26, when Wind & Wuthering was released. Unbeatable. In this respect just like the beatles.

I haven't seen it yet, but I suspect a surprising / upsetting outcome for most (prog) viewers.... especially considering the production and popularity dimensions that the infallible superiometer takes into account. Let's see. I'll write again in 30 minutes.

@jdmresearch

10 ай бұрын

Ok, back after 30 minutes. Well, to be frank, I was expecting Gabriel's Genesis vs. Collins *70s* Genesis. (My mistake, didn't read well). I think including the 80s stuff gets a bit out of focus and unchallenging. I think it would be a much closer match including only ATOAT, W&W, ATTWT, and Duke (which I'd argue it's still 70s Genesis). It's interesting; when I was a prog-obssessed guy I'd only accept the Gabriel's albums. Then those with Hackett. Then ATTWT and Duke. Now I actually like up until Abacab or Genesis. (Though I always loved ATTWT, it was the first album that I listened to, I was only 5 but my older sisters played it all the time). I actually think these 4 are truly great albums, especially the Hackett albums. After that, it's really a totally different band. Still, I enjoyed the video. And... I made my first donation (though I'm a loyal Patron)... nothing too extreme, but hopefully you can invest in better tuning the Superioremeter with it.

The production value went up for this video, didn’t it

Seems to me each era has three great albums: Gabriel - Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, and Selling England / Collins - ToTT, WaW, and Duke. Then each has two or three very good albums: Gabriel - Trespass and Lamb / Collins, Abacab and Shapes. The trouble is that Collins era has some awful ones, which Gabriel era did not.

Andy. Post Gabriel Genesis was SO INNOVATIVE. Mix of drum machine w live drumming (Duchess)- check. Proggy songs in a pop context (Me and Sarah Jane; Dodo Lurker)- check. Crazy complex and dramatic light shows (Seconds Out)-check. I mean, Genesis was very distinctive in 80s.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

I don't think they innovated any of these things really.

@roddmcleodable

10 ай бұрын

The superiometer may be objective, but the information fed into it is subjective for sure! @@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Praise the Lord you are tackling this delicate subject. What with a potential nuclear war on the horizon and a collapse of western currencies, we finally get to discuss the life's work of seventies something multi-millionaires. Clearly Gabriel era Genesis was the more innovative and challenging. In addition, both Collins and Gabriel get kudos for adapting to changing musical tastes unlike most of their their 70's peers. If I must choose, I'll take prog over pop or maybe dancing knights over illegal aliens any day.

After the John McLaughlin vs Allan Holdsworth debacle I really questioned the Super i ometer. However this result has resurrected my faith. I would take issue with you on the technical award going to the Collins era. If you evaluate the studio album musicians (excluding Trick of the Tail and Wind and the Wuthering) it's the same musicians with the difference being Phil Collins replacing Peter Gabriel on vocals and Mike Rutherford replacing Steve Hackett on guitar. I would give equal points to the vocals but on guitar it's no comparison -- the point should go to the Hackett era which is mostly encompassed within the Gabriel era.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

10 ай бұрын

Like science, people only tend to agree with things when they agree with them

Hackett is the guitarist on Seconds Out, not the "technically superior" Stuermer. And there is much more to "technique" than how fast you can play a scale, or more pertinently, someone else's ideas and their execution.

Wait, 0.5 points should be added to Collins for being an integral part of Gabriel's Genesis, and 0.5 should be subtracted from Gabriel for not reciprocating. Gabriel's Genesis still wins but the score is more appropriate 8-P

I’ve followed Genesis since the very beginning when they played at Clee Grammar school dance in Cleethorpes for £25. That’s how much they were paid. I have all of their albums save one. The Lamb Lies down on Broadway. I’ve never heard this album - I hated the title and couldn’t bring myself to buy or listen to it. Should I go out and get a copy?

@dave_manley

10 ай бұрын

Yes, you should. There's one track that I'm not fond of because of a guitar solo but there are many fantastic tracks and the album stands on its own as one of their best.

@zootallures6470

10 ай бұрын

When I listened to the Lamb for the first time I said to my brother, I am going to listen to it one more time and then I'm going to say that it's the best Genesis album.

@dave_manley

10 ай бұрын

@@zootallures6470 I saw the Seconds Out tour and they performed a number of tracks from TLLDOB. That was good but I really enjoyed seeing The Musical Box perform the album in its entirety, with full stage production, a few years back. There's nothing quite like concert volume real Taurus bass pedals and mellotron.

When you said Chester Thompson on drums, it made me think of Frank Zappa saying the same thing on the Roxy and elsewhere album. Gabriel. Though I only was able to see the Collins era band live. Edit: I was thumbing through KZread Shorts at the very end of this and I see ‘Live at Loads Street’ at the exact moment you said something about it selling loads! No such thing as coincidences. It truly happened at the exact moment. I’ve had loads of those lovely synchronicities happen to me and may the universe continue to bless me with them. It wasn’t the algorithm… phew!!

Technical ability? It's not all about about what ability you have, it's about what you do with it. A brilliant surgeon is still a brilliant surgeon if he's slicing a sausage to make a sandwich but the two things aren't comparable. The super-i-ometer still needs a bit of fine tuning.

Technical ability? Is that being able to precisely and reliably reproduce something, which may or may not be very interesting to a rabid listener, (kind of like a more expensive photo copier)?

The Hackett era and the pre and post Hackett era is more accurate to me.

I know you think we're all shocked by you for not liking Selling England as much as a progger should, Andrew. Well I have a shocking statement for everyone here and all the Prog Seat dudes over on SoT. I'm just gonna say it....The Lamb...is not the ultimate Genesis album for me and, for me, it's not on the compositional level as the great trilogy of Nursery, Foxtrot and Selling. It's not even as good as A Trick. It's a really good album, don't get me wrong. And in terms of production, all albums from the great trilogy have a similar dry sounding production which I love. It's the use of digital reverbs later in the 70s that really messed things up for many genres. The one thing that really upsets me on Lamb is that while some of the songs are amazing and great, some of the songs are just not taking off. The English atmosphere is gone and it doesn't have that magical feeling that the earlier ones had. So....in my book....The Lamb is ranked at no. 5......Yes. I said it. You don't want me to shock you further with my favorite Yes or Gentle Giant albums...