Another old school design by an engineer that never spent one hour of his life out in the field performing service

@shooter2843

4 жыл бұрын

So true.

@kencrane6420

2 жыл бұрын

Or an engineer who did originally design for serviceability and had his design rejected by a project manager to save $2.34 per unit (while screwing anyone who ever has to work on, or pay for someone to work on) in order to hit the Cost Of Goods target per unit.

@htroberts

Жыл бұрын

engineers don’t get graded on how easy the design is to service. they get graded on how easy (cheap) it is to manufacture.

Whoever designed that mess should be made to repair a few of them

Ralph is like a blister...shows up after the work is done....

What a horrible design! I can’t believe the whole thing has to be taken apart just to replace an inducer 🙄👎

Hey! I wanted to thank you for this video, particularly your comment about the rust at 16:40. I "fixed" my 2005 Payne Gas Pack by sticking a small tube down the exhaust floo and rotating the inducer vanes to free up the motor. Started right up after that. Got scammed for $80 by a tech who thought my service disconnect breaker was bad because he disconnected it, but that's another story...

On those old ones I just leave the gas hooked up and everything. You can just loosen the door on the side and lift the electrical compartment up a little. You don’t have to take the screw out behind the gas valve because it’s slotted. Just undo the top screws with a stubby/ socket wrench and yank it out.

Since Ralph has moved to Greenville maybe I can meet him sometime. We are going to have a bunch of you tube celebrities in town, all we need now is Steve Lav.

@TandNServices

4 жыл бұрын

Roger Gregory keep an eye out at Ferguson I may be hanging out in there from time to time

I would not be able to do a KZread video for the foul language I would use when working on this!

@Tex200950

4 жыл бұрын

LMAO !!!!

Excellent channel. I've got the carrier equivalent model 48GS that's 18 years old. Inducer is fine, but hx is rusted through. I could have it replaced for $800 and maybe but another year or two, but I've decided to put that money into a new unit. Guy I work with in my area is a real pro and honest.

That was a job well done!! You made it look easy, Ted!

Awesome Job! Great video. I ll be doing the exact same repair this coming Tuesday. Dread it. Those are a Major pain in the ass to install.

I have a mobile home with that same carrier package unit (05) and the inducer is making allot of racket and the unit failed to stay on right off the bat this year. I had a ventless propane fireplace professionally installed. I've always used a couple electric radiant heaters to supplement. I've decided to shut the heat side down after watching this video. The fireplace unit works really good and is far more efficient. My CO meter toggles between 0 to 1 ppm. I'm good with that.

Used to sell Payne at the shop I work at. Also was a pro at ripping out heat exchangers 😂😂 so glad we’re swapping to Armstrong units!

Engineers at carrier are special! It's like doing oil change though exhaust pipe on a car

@devonpeeples2188

3 жыл бұрын

Not saying it’s the easiest IDM to change. But that’s a 30-40 minute job. He just didn’t pull the side panel. Takes ten seconds and he would’ve saved 20 minutes.

Like in Canada I see red tag issues like crazy. Package unit first to close to regulator, indoor shut off, no dirt pocket, rusted unmarked gas pipes this is just first glance. All of these would get me fined.

Wow I’m so happy I’ve never had to really deal with Payne units in my 18 years of HVAC work. You weren’t joking you literally had to disassemble all the electrical wiring and burner Assembly apart just to get to change that out. What a nightmare and on a shitty day of cold wet weather it would be even worse. 😲😫😭😡🤬🤯‼️‼️

I really enjoy your videos!

Your correct, pipe dope is mostly used as a lubricant so the threads don't gall. It's the tapered threads on pipe that seal the joints. I do use it on the mechanical threads and sealing surfaces of a union fitting also but just alittle bit.

Very good video 😀 good info👍🏼

I use a 6-in-1 to get to the screws of the contactor. The 5/16 nut driver is thin wall. Your Klein multi driver should fit as well.

LOL I just changed out the same venter motor on a 5 ton Bryant gas RTU. Mine wasn't a "Payne" to change though. On a side note, mine came with a new fiberglass gasket in the same box as the inducer. You got ripped off, Ted!

Thanks for the video type of stuff I work with

Thanks for the shout out Ted

I was doing a duct cleaning on one of these Payne units the other day and whoever replaced the inducer motor just took tin snips to the plate that the board mounts to.. super hack job the gas line looked like it was installed with a hacksaw also

That Payne is a pain! When you have to remove the gas pipe and burner, it's a whole another thing. Man that back plate sure has rusted. I'd guess that the seal around the inducer housing failed some time ago, leaking moisture when it operates, thus rusting the sheet metal. Any sealing used on there would be better than how it was operating. Always got to wonder how rusty the heat exchanger looks inside (where all the moisture's concentrated). Which is why the whole thing is replaced when it's falling apart at the inducer, rather than just fabricating a sheet metal backplate. (Sure it would make a geat seal outside with new metal, but what about the CO2 from combustion mixing with the household air from a heat exchanger with a hole rusted through)

Not sure if I missed a previous video on this, but I’m always curious to know your troubleshooting method since you are always so efficient. I laughed when you said PAIN, they spelled it wrong right there!

I just want you to know how much I appreciate your patience with a PAIN’ful situations!! The blower costing $350 and then a couple to several hours labor, Payne doesn’t get it. Just a badly engineered system. But, thanks for the education and now that I’m armed with this knowledge, I’ll stay away from the Payne brand of system. Rheem/Rudd seems to be the system of my choice…..

The thing about a DIYer trying to do things like this is we have to mull over various screws and bolts trying to decide if we should take this one or that one out. Then after we have gotten it disassembled we discover half of the screws we took out we didn't need to. And now we have to put things back that we didn't need to take out in the first place and it turns out to be really hard. But you know, after we spend all freaking day doing a task that the professional could have done in an hour, we get the job done. And there is a great deal of self satisfaction. And we will sleep well that night because the all day task wore us out. Besides, our hands are cut to shreds and we have to doctor our wounds for a few days.

Payne should get an award for a truly outstanding job of piss poor engineering‼️ Looks like it was designed to encourage replacement of the complete package unit rather than a component. I’m guessing you’ll eventually replace it with a Trane❗️I’ve never been a fan of residential package units because of the rust issue. Outstanding repair job‼️

In the Air Force, we had to deal with ECUs (Environmental Control Units) basically HVAC package units built under government contract. They were meant to be mobile, used with electronic communications trailers. They were heavy as hell, so loud you had to wear ear muffs to be anywhere near them, and hard as hell to work on, even for simple repairs. Definitely government contract.

@user-oy4qp9pq6i

26 күн бұрын

We had to refurb 15 equipment trailers that had those units. They had 2 compressors that ran continuously, and cycled valves to select heat, cool, or idle. They also used a resistance reheat system to control humidity. This design prevented large voltage drops from compressor cycling as some of the electronics were not very tolerant of low voltage. These systems were deployed in the jungle and ran on generator power.

@adavidf03

26 күн бұрын

@@user-oy4qp9pq6i Exactly. Most were 220VAC three phase, and some had huge capacitors on each leg to lessen AC hum on the power feeding the electronics. They did run constantly. If I remember correctly, a solenoid valve would cut off liquid going to the main expansion valve when the thermostat was satisfied. At the same time another valve would open and allow a small amount of liquid through a second expansion valve to cause just enough cooling to keep the compressor from burning up.

By any chance you guys remember the carrier 48NHT series gas pacs? We called them the NO HEAT TONIGHT series. Face plates and chambers had major issues with splitting prematurely. It’s easy to miss on the new style gas packs a rusted out face plate due to the first run of draft motors not have a moisture weep hole in the bottom of the fan housing. The draft motor housing will sweat year round and in the summer it would hold the condensation to the face plate and rust it out. The draft motor wheels would be bad within 2 years of service. The motor was fine but I’ve beat the bearings out of a motor trying to get the wheel off. I guess Carrier had enough complaints their solution was a condensation weep hole in the draft assy motor housing. What a PAYNE!

RUN!!!! LOL! Great work

They sure do design them to be worked on. If they had to work on them they would design them better. Have a blessed day keep up the great work

I had to put my gloves on just to watch you take this unit apart.

Good to see Ralph. He must live close by?

Pipe dope is not sealant it is a lubricant unless it has teflon in it. Awesome video and yes payne should be spelled pain. I did the same unit about 3 weeks back and i didn't have to remove the burners. Not only was the inducer bad but the board as well. Will be looking for more of your videos buddy .

I have never seen an outside furnace, that must be a more southern thing. Here in the NE the air would be cold till it even got in the house :)

@crand20033

2 жыл бұрын

This is completely stupid to put it outside. The rust would make it necessary to replace the furnace every couple of years.

When you run into screws that the heads are about gone, carry a machine end mill and remove what’s left by hand slowly with the cordless drill! All brands

Wonder what the heat exchanger looks like?🧐 Other Carrier/Payne units I’ve worked on with that same combustion blower it’s literally a 15 minute job. That’s a money maker there 😝 Back when I started everyone including me had a five gallon bucket for a tool box. I’ve since moved up to a Klein backpack. The VETO bags ain’t cheap.

Nice job Ted, Ralph waited till the work was done lol

What a headache that must have been to work on. A wire brush on the end of the drill will remove that rust better and faster than sandpaper.

Awesome work

I like the Megaloc wipes right off.

Watching this I realized the difference between residential and commercial because if I went on a call like this and it was commercial I would have written up the firewall as well. And ALL related part$

What would you say a fair price on labor would be? I have the exact job coming up monday.. joy! Awesome video and great job! Hope I have same luck

Agree with you on the pipe dope another thing my dad taught me was use a little on the union seat and threads seals better and comes apart better!

@robertmerkel5841

4 жыл бұрын

No dope on unions

@garyholcomb7065

4 жыл бұрын

@@robertmerkel5841 why

@robertmerkel5841

4 жыл бұрын

Union's sealing surface's are one ground tapered pressed into a conical brass insert that's malleable. These two items are the gasket anything between them affects the performance of the mechanic seat. Pipe dope is only a lubricant to assist with tightening the tapers of NPT fittings not a sealant.

@garyholcomb7065

4 жыл бұрын

@@robertmerkel5841 not using it as a sealant just a little for lub

Is the plate that that inducer mounts to part of the heat exchanger? All the rest on that front you would have to tell the customer you don't know what it's going to look like till you start tearing it apart.

The Unit looks like it has given 15 years of honest service.One thing is for sure,a 2004 appliance won't have asbestos in it but the flues on the bottom are OK? Regulations here demand yellow is used for gas pipe thread tape here. White is for water.

Pull pin...throw grenade...drive away! Nice Job Ted.

The best approach is take the gas line side off , it’s a 45 minute job to change the complete heat exchanger with the new inducer on it or it enables you better access for just the inducer.

Great video, The engineer that designed that should find another career. Your volume is still very low. Thanks.

Almost like those old movies..... Frankenstein Meets Dracula.....starring Abbot and Costello.

That would be fun at 20 below zero.

@IFIXCASTLES

4 жыл бұрын

Fingers frozen ....wires all stiff...not a fan of this .

Definitely a job for a pro. Nice work.

Once the induce draft motor assembly was out, what was that crack? or what appeared to be a crack?

Not suprised at how easy that was for you being the master tech you are! I have never liked Pains!

I have one of these from 2018. I did order the grille plates for the condenser. Don't need some kid writing their name in the fins at my expense. I let my AC guy maintain it.

I replaced mine and used POR-15 and coated everything (the new fan cage internal and external metal services) so no more rust. after 15 min no more smell from POR. GTG

Hope you checked the heat exchanger before you quoted that motor replacement. That Carrier, Bryant, Payne package unit is known for about 8-9 years on the heat exchanger and at minute mark 17:11 I believe I see a breach looking right in the center of the face plate opening!

How did that heat exchanger look?

@usahoangsatruongsa

4 жыл бұрын

When the unit runs again he should check the CO level inside the house to see if this old gas pack produces a massive amount of CO as in his other video LOL.Given the fact that the unit's 14 years old he should check the CO level inside the house. The gas pack heat exchanger easily get cracks, holes due to being outside unlike the split system.Hope he does not have a nightmare thinking about what might happen to the homeowner tonight.

@richardmurry9866

4 жыл бұрын

Hoangsa Truongsa I was thinking the same thing. If that Was rotted out like thatl the heat exchanger probably has a crack in it somewhere

Love this work, but @ 72 a bit difficult, definitely don’t do ladders anymore

Ted the only thing i notice you didn't do was check the exchanger. Every unit 8 yrs and up i check that heat exchanger don't want to lose any customers

Another great job

It is definitely a pain but there is a faster way to do this I’ve changed a truck load of these things you won’t have to take the high or low voltage loose or the side heat exchanger panel. You can remove the wiring for the inducer and pull the igniter wire and gas valve wire listen the front two screws fo the control plate and the top two screws for the heat shield plate and remove the heat shield. Take the gas line loose at the union and you can slide the gas valve to the right just far enough to get a long extension to the bottom screws of the inducer then go through the electrical holes in the control panel with your long extension to get the top screws in the inducer. Then you just lift up on the control panel (the holes are slotted so you don’t have to remove the front screws completely) and the inducer will come out. Reverse the process to reinstall. Two notes the insulation behind the inducer is also the gasket and it almost never survives the replacement and if it leaks I’ve had it snuff out the flame with the door off so I always add rtv. And also this doesn’t work with the newer package units without the halleffect switch you have to completely disassemble like you did here.

@matthewleary7782

4 жыл бұрын

Jj

I just went through the same thing replacing the inducer assembly on a heil.

I can attest that Carrier doesn't care about the service tech. Was in Syracuse at a training seminar, asked to speak with design engineers, got shot down. Before starting a repair on one of those units, do a test on the heat exchanger, may save some aggravation.

I always check the heat exchanger before I give a quote. Especially after seeing that much rust. I live where it's more dry and I've worked on many of these units. I don't recall seeing that much rust!! Most of the time I just do routine services on these and normally don't find anything wrong. This is actually not a bad unit. But that rust is very bothersome. Also why is the gas meter that close to the unit that's definitely a 106 hazardous condition. I was a gas tech for a year so yeah that's not to code I don't believe

I use the gasket maker too.

Take a close look at the inside of the fir box (17:10). I think I see a crack or a piece of metal missing from one of the flame tubes. This would not have been seen from the position he was viewing the unit from. I think it was only visible to the camera.

Carrier unit I worked on 2 days ago wasn't quite as easy to get that center plate out. It was screwed down to the side wall on the other side of the plate.

Why do someone put package units for residential use? they just rust out like crazy.

I've not yet seen you leak test the gas lines you have worked on. Do you in fact test them?

You are changing it the hard way. Yes you have to take the gas valve out but you didn’t have to unwire it I changed one the same day you did on a pain unit to

Hey I’ve been watching for awhile now. I really enjoy watching your videos and learning new tricks. I wanted to ask you a question about Trane 4YCC3036A1075A inducer motor. I changed one yesterday day on a ‘12 model unit that the blower wheel had completely rusted into. The remains looked like a cutoff wheel. I’ve change two more like that in previous years. I was wondering if you’ve had problems with the wheel rusted out or if this would be some installer error because I’m pretty sure they were all installed by the same guy. Thanks.

@IFIXCASTLES

4 жыл бұрын

It happens..

@travisb9130

4 жыл бұрын

In my experience it's because the gas pressures are a little low, so the flue exhaust is condensating before it makes it out of the inducer. A combustion analysis can confirm this. Also, propane can cause them to rust badly even if there is no other issues.

Does anyone take pride in their work when they install it? That gas line looks horrible.

@JasperJanssen

4 жыл бұрын

AkshonClips there’s only so many places it can go, and cutting down the tree to make the place less leafy might not be a desired option.

If you want to learn this is the man to learn from

This was amazing. Who in the world designed that machine.

I hate that model of package unit, I'm changing a draft assembly on the same model Monday. Ugh!

Locktite makes good thread sealants

simple candle wax rub will slow down the rust

The regulator on that gas meter set piping should be 3' from the electrical disconnect of the condensing unit.

Reminds me of a few auto heater cores I replaced years ago, buried by "ENGINEERS".

And the damn thing is design like a 1970s1980 John Deere combines miserable to work on!

Not sure why you hate the blue pipe dope. If your talking about Blue Monster pipe dope that stuff comes off easily. If your talking about the TruBlu stuff then yeah that stuff stains and takes forever to get off. I will never use anything other than blue monster. Love that stuff. I feel like its a mixture of the TruBlu and the white paste. But it definitely does not stain.

Everytime I see someone doing a job like that I just wait for the guy that tells me he can do it in 20 minutes... cleanup and all..

Good little vid Ted ... Like you , I hate lugging 40 ld tool bags around ... Sorry , Veto Pro Pack people ...

I swear around the 17 min mark where your talking about cleaning the rust off. That heat exchanger is rusted or busted out.

Hope electronics survive the heat without the insulation.

This engineer was fired he now works for York. 🤣

@TedCookHVAC

3 жыл бұрын

LoL !!

This was painful to watch. A totally ridiculous design.

17:11 isn’t that a big old hole in the heat exchanger?

@Whats12345

4 жыл бұрын

I looked and said wait....WHAT!?

Payne...the name fits lol

Steve Lav would be Singing She's a Crusty One Mr. Grinch.

They are definitely a loud burner!

Can always put a heat exchanger in it!

Hope you checked that heat exchanger. Those are the worst for having cracks

Did you remember the screw under the exhaust cover?

Never understood the messy wires in the units, you’d think manufacturers would use a harness or do it like you see in computers.

Did any one see the Ground Clamp on the Gas Pipe........ Big No NO.

There is a much easier way to preform that repair the only part you have to remove is the burner tray.