Hmmm....I've read quite a few of the comments here, and many have missed the point, it's not just capitalism that is in it's death throws (It's based on infinite growth, which is frankly insane logic), but also the old socialist/communist idealogy, trying to fit those ideaologies into the new tech/info age just won't work.

@benjifricker-muller6104

8 жыл бұрын

Well arguably, and I say this as a Marxist, the socialist/communist ideology as planned economic system with Stalinist tendencies, is dead- past tense.

@fl00fydragon

7 жыл бұрын

i will add that neither systems are eligible for the future due to another factor that is quickly gaining importance : automation and A.I. some experts are acessingthat 35-75% of occupations will be gone by 20-30 years due to theese technologies the sulution is to make a new system that utilises theese technologies to create a system of virtual post scarcity through the automated production , distribution and recycling of goods and services

@robertwill23

7 жыл бұрын

Soviet Union had planned economy so it wasn't state capitalism. It was socialist state in a sense that government provided basic care for free and provided different social contract. Obviously it was only partially successful project. It became bureaucratic (nomenclature) state eventually.

@naturalisted1714

7 жыл бұрын

Good! Although, why do we need any form of scarcity? We need to be content with less materials and end status through possessions. We should strive to achieve status through kindness and our ability to conceptualize. But I'm sure new forms of scarcity may result from the coming space explorations ...

@1:29:41 This is the problem. She says Rockefeller brought cheap oil to people. First of all, he didn't do it by himself. Second of all, he didn't adhere to the principles of the free market. He destroyed competition and created a monopoly. Individuals are involved in a complex interconnected system which we can call society. Mr Rockefeller didn't invent the tech used to get oil, refine it and distribute it. He was just an administrator. Yet, he gets all the profits and retains most of the wealth created by other people. She mentions that the consumer is king in a free market capitalist world. This is shortsighted because it assumes that the consumers knows all the relevant information required to make the best decision possible. This is never the case. There are many factors that cause people to deviate from what is 'best'. For example, if an advert shows me how cool a new sports car is but it costs so much that I have to borrow money to buy it, my love for the car will override the acknowledgement of the consequences of lending money and whether I can pay for it in the future. The perfect market doesn't exist. Therefore people take advantage of the imperfectness. This will always happen. This is how you can make a profit. Also, reducing people down to individuals is a divide and conquer tactic. It denounces the act of collective decision making which effects the profits of big business. I think this is to do with fundamentalist individualism. Everything is about the individual and should be individual-centric. The burden lies with you and whatever happens is your fault. This dogma needs to be eradicated. It is rare that the individual is 100% culpable for their action.

@BaneTrogdor

8 жыл бұрын

+Saay again I Agree !!

@vincenthitchin8740

7 жыл бұрын

Well put!

@DonDeering

6 жыл бұрын

Saay again That is an important aspect.

@patrickortiz2898

4 жыл бұрын

the individual is the responsible party

just finished reading PostCapitalism. well worth the time to gain other perspectives on how we live and how we could live. Nonetheless, I was disappointed he didn’t include animal exploitation and environmental damage caused by it. He correctly identifies many of the dangers facing humanity and writes it’s absurd that we can change from a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression, but not see the utopia of a revised economic system. Yet he doesn’t see beyond carbon damage to the bred animal pollution. Worse, he writes of automating society to free humans from work, but includes “meat-packing” machines. Should slaughter be by machine too? I like much of what he writes, but he should consider detrimental aspects of the energy and economics of animals as food… meatless eating is a solution addressing many of the issues raised in his book.

@asad5067

8 жыл бұрын

chris hedges only started talking about animal exploitation until recently, and didnt really know too much / think too much about it until recently and am now mostly vegan.

@dylanp6663

7 жыл бұрын

We haven't had gender oppression for 40,000 years. 40,000 years is the development of language or "the great leap forward", cognitive functioning of linguistics unless I've been reading false history. I don't debate anything you have said really just that gender oppression is 40,000 years old as if it's as inherent as language is to our being. Gender oppression is the result of conquest. Nomadic tribes of hunter gatherers, communicating and thinking with linguistics probably had a very egalitarian and family based nature with firm social bonds and ethics.

@naturalisted1714

7 жыл бұрын

I'd personally eat other protein sources that are natural. You make a really good point. I do eat meat, but Maintainance of the entire thing is kind of obsolete and only adds to our healthcare issues. We can create foods rich in the vitamins and everything we get from meat with technology. We have to think long term and that is what you're doing :-)

No reason why traditional socialism isn't adaptable to modern life. It's about equality, a society where people are close to equal is by far the happiest, cant really see why technology should alter that.

I don't think the people on the panel even understand what paul mason is saying. The implications of unlimited uncontrollable ubiquitous information. It is mind blowing and something I have never considered I am going to have to pick up the book and see how he lays his assertions out.

Stockholm's Syndrome is what we're seeing now in regards to the masses trying to reject automation, but the progression from Stone tools to Metal ones was inevitable- although people could have (at their own detriment) rejected Metal tools - and we have to make people see that rejecting automation for the purpose of keeping the drudgery of Capitalism going is beyond foolish. Who washes their dishes or clothes by hand when we have machines that do it and use Less water and electricity?! For a summary of all of the benefits of automation please read my short story; The Good, The Bad, and The Utility (google it) and it explains the psychological, physical, and environmental (along with others) benefits of moving forward with the great Gift that is automation.

@naturalisted1714

7 жыл бұрын

Also, Capitalists complain that we cannot have free healthcare or other free things, yet those who say this are often at the top of some hiarchy where they pay people wages that cause people to just scrape by. With automated healthcare AI like Watson can diagnose something without a person even leaving their home. We will have a Watson app and hospitals as a brick and mortar place you go to will be a thing of the past. A lot of our attachment to capitalism is actually an psychological addiction to classism - a deeply ingrained form of Narcissism....

The poor girl on the council estate who can't pay down the higher purchase for the fridge will hardly place that much strain on the economy - given the bailiffs will just go in. The problem for the Neo Capitalists is the large petty bourgeois they have endeavored to build up over the last 40 years - in the main part for political reasons. An enlarged middleclass that would neutralize working-class suffrage. The so-called Stakeholder Society as Tony Blair coined it A petty bourgeois that is now demanding free-college education and a place on the property ladder for their kids. Fine when the middle-class was a relatively small demographic - however now its swollen to around 60 percent of the population that's a big rod for the government's back All of which will have to be serviced by cheap credit - given the rich still appear reluctant to cough up.

@MistabishiTV

2 жыл бұрын

The top 1% pay over 60% of the income tax. They do cough up.

1:33:40 for approx 50 seconds. The silence of realization after "...in this discussion." I think says a lot

What an incredibly out of touch, unrepresentatively privileged and complacent bunch of people this was, barring Paul Mason. The Guardian is part of the problem, the class newspaper of the wrong class at the wrong time.

Intellectual property is actually incompatible with the ideal free market

The lady that said 'how can you make all this easier to understand?', they completely ignored her question!

"The nakedness of economic force." I think a better term is the corruption that comes when all the power is in the hands of a small group that will use their strength to serve their own desires with total disregard for the needs of the vast majority of people.

Dang, Douglas. Been working out?

we need a panel made up of educated people that live below the poverty line. "is capitalism dead?" should be titled Capitalism has failed miserably and we've had the technological know how to create a type one civilisation for at least thirty years so let's start. Here are some people/organisations with realistic strategies for creating a sustainable socio-equal economy. Buckminster Fuller, Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project, The Zeitgeist Movement to name a few.

Is Murray Douglas dishonestly missing the point on purpose or is he just being stupid. One of the main points being made is that modern capitalism is starving the real economy with interest rents and halting wages. Whether people can avoid falling into dept by cancelling Christmas or living on bread and water is not the point. The point is that economy is being supported by dept so a really disciplined general public can only lead to more stagnation or even worse a recession.

@TansuTansu2

8 жыл бұрын

Murray is too smart to miss the point - he simply does not have a good counter for the conversation.

They way the markets work IS the most primary concern for many of us - because we're the ones having to pay dearly for its mistakes (our childrens' children will be paying for the 2008 downturn alone), and then we have to stomach the upside (profits) being privatized (shared by a small handful).

Awesome work

Incredible how unappealing the right is when the left is not on the defensive

You guys, when you sell your books, do you try and get the best deal or do you say, try and take some dosh then put it on kindle for free?

When barrels of oil went from over a hundred to forty the economy jumped the shark. Wait, interest rates. Dang it@

Oh, Douglas. Just take off your shirt and tell us.

If Zoe Williams was as comfortable hearing other people from opposing positions as she is her own voice she'd be much more enlightening.

@tgreenan

9 жыл бұрын

Sam Purchase Smug nonsense.

@Govanmauler

8 жыл бұрын

She always seems to try to occupy all positions at once.

Volume's a problem - hard to digest the meaning when - anyway video fail - shame I was looking forward.

Douglas Murray are you speaking about Britain alone? Because I must say that, as far as the EU is concerned: you are wrong, so wrong, about the new neoliberalism not rejoicing the the misery, bankruptcies, etc of all the productive groups of society. In Portugal, taking the advantage of the Troika that was (and still is but subliminally because of the upcoming elections) the official speech. And I'm not mentioning "working class" because it's not about the WK alone: it's about the Middle Class, it's about small and medium businesses, it'a about anyone that's not either 1) politician on the far right; 2) a venture capitalist.

Humanity needs a Natural Law Resource Based Economy.

@nathanielfabian1056

8 жыл бұрын

+Lynda Murray whats 'natural law' ?

@ADyingFaith

8 жыл бұрын

Nathaniel Fabian Natural Law/Resource-Based Economy Today, various terms exists to express the general logical basis for a more scientifically oriented social system in different circles, including the titles “Resource-Based Economy” or “Natural Law Economy.” While these titles are historically referential and somewhat arbitrary overall, the title “Natural Law/Resource-Based Economy” (NLRBE) will be utilized here since it has the most concrete semantic basis. 19 A Natural Law/Resource-Based Economy is defined as “an adaptive socioeconomic system actively derived from direct physical reference to the governing scientific laws of nature.” Overall, the observation is that through the use of socially targeted research and tested understandings in science and technology, we are now able to logically arrive at societal approaches which could be profoundly more effective in meeting the needs of the human population. We are now able to dramatically increase public health, better preserve the habitat, create a general material abundance, while also strategically reduce or eliminate many common social problems present today which are sadly considered inalterable by many due to their cultural persistence.

@ADyingFaith

8 жыл бұрын

Nathaniel Fabian This is taken from the Zeitgeist Movement Defined book which you can download for free of the website. It is an excellent read which provides sanity and reason when it comes to understanding why the world is as insane and messed up as it is.

@FrancisandMajellaCassidy

8 жыл бұрын

+Lynda Murray I agree with you Lynda. It is the only thing that makes sense to me. We need to use the scientific method to achieve an economy that is aligned with Natural Law. Not an economy based on human opinions or shady politics.

as i see it ,basically we cant all play monopoly ,so we can just watch from the sidelines ,like a spectator sport for the masses

following the result in Hartlepool surely the real question is 'is the Labour party dead'

Interesting what Thomas Friedman recently said. “I’m left of Bernie Sanders and right of the editorial pages of the Wall St Journal” Maybe we have to throw the old dualities of capitalism/ socialism economics and right / left politics on the dust bin of history to make any real progress.

Very interesting conversation overall. However, I wish they would have had more balance on the panel in the form of additional pro-capitalist perspective. Douglas Murray was great individually, but his few contributions were, I think, inadequate in painting a full picture of the counter-argument.

@subspaceanomaly

9 жыл бұрын

Blue Chain douglas murray gives me the creeps..

I guess people like to be hated for trying to prove things with their way of posing questions

5 against 1 for..... interesting...

Post analogue --> Post capitalism

1st point - Wages have not increased at the same rate as inflation-either in usa or any other country. Dont blame debt...if income is far behind . How can one payoff debt with decreasing income. Income shrinks when INFLATION outpaces income. The working poor is a reality. Yet the poor are blamed in every instance. 2nd point. - Where is the individual? From the snotty english girl. Well how about if you had a basic income you could count on, you could afford to turn down a dead end job and study or work towards a more rewarding career you really want. Most people get stuck working in a job they dont like because they have debts-not everyone buys a shiny ferrari, but one needs a reliable car which is quite expensive relative to ones wages. 3rd point - Debt isnt the problem. there is more SAVINGS world wide than ever before by large multinational corps and the wealthy world wide. Because money in savings EXCEEEDS debts for one of the first time in history, its creating LOW DEMAND WORLD WIDE, from usa, to CHINA...HENCE THE fall of chinese economy. Your ignorant of the real problem. There is more in TRILLIONS in SAVINGS world wide VS DEBT. SO dont blame the poor for "L;IVING BEYOND THEIR MEANS" . It doesnt surprise me of such idiocy. 4th point - AND MOST IMPORTANT--dont worry. You dont need to do anything. CApitalism is dead. WE are ruled by "Bankruptocasy" not democracy and much less capitalism. Because CAPITALISM is at WAR with LABOR, it continually eliminates labor cost and eventually by AUTOMATION, as it increases will SHUT OFF DEMAND WORLD WIDE. CaPITALISM killed itself. LOL. ITs' ironic and tragic. Sit and wait, it will happen without you needing to do anything...

Thats a good and interesting talk. I do not know any of the people in this debate (sorry. Im not from britain) I would like to know a little more about who they are. Allso I am sort of missing marxist views in this. It seems to me not to be less relevant, at least they don`t really argue why it would be less relevant, they just state it.

Does he describe his alternative in some other vid?

8 жыл бұрын

Yes, basically I'm interested more in developing alternatives than various critiques of capitalism, liberalism, neo-liberalism etc. Essentially Marx laid out the basics of critique and from then on we already know that capitalism is highly exploitative system vis-a-vis capital and labour antagonism.

@leo333333able

8 жыл бұрын

looking for something to watch on that subject, thanks.

@leo333333able

8 жыл бұрын

.Jon Blann. .Great Sage. ...the irony

@NIUtee

7 жыл бұрын

The alternative is organization and environmentally aware distribution. Currently there is no controls over birth. People are having children regardless of their effects on the future environmental effects. Plus, there is unemployment in the millions, and people live for more than 80 years. A lot has to change or there is extinction level events likely in the future.

NeoLiberalism, of which i am not one" WTF stop trying to characterise and slot people under some stupid label. Screw your 'isms' people are people so just let them be. People invent things corporations do not. They should invite me to the next talk show.,..

52.00 it's also just fun to bash capitalism. welcome to fiction. & 1.07 there is already a long tradition in very interesting postcapitalist literature out there, yes

Douglas Murray dropped in a reference to Charles Murray. Yes the Charles Murray who wrote The Bell Curve. The book which tried to revive race IQ "science" as a legitimate thing. Wow.

@nicheman3612

4 жыл бұрын

@@julianpigott7896 For me or for him?

@1:02:20 What the fuck! 3 sample sets is not 3 data points...

Douglas Murray makes me laugh, apparently he seems to believe the mainstream media have unique access to some objective truth. XD

Look at the forecast for automation to eradicate jobs in the near future. Look at the estimated costs of climate change just around the corner. Look at the size of the debt for most nation states. Those debts require a functioning society that isn't catastrophically falling apart on a whole host of levels. Capitalism or not, the current system is marked for death.

The future is An-Cap

@dickhamilton3517

8 жыл бұрын

that'll last a fortnight. what then?

Why Murray, jeez.

Poor Douglas Murray!! His expression at !.22.36 says it all!!!! I admire his patience and tolerance having to sit their and listen to all this arrant nonsense!!

@tgreenan

9 жыл бұрын

Ariadne7710 It's clearly going over his head. He was struggling to say anything relevant.

@mengelmoesNL

9 жыл бұрын

***** So much anger... typical for the left.

I quite like listening to Paul mason but the guardian is a teenage magazine for people who menstruate or wish that they did.

These people could not be more wrong.

//ideas// unproved ideas of what might maybe work ... small enterprises etc, decentralised internet? Hugh? Thatll be more effecient, will it? Not vulnerable to being bought up if they ever got good? Theorists live in their own world. Ideas, great, no action bad. Also, there is nobody with any idea of fixing this, any of it. Ok, some freewear, ok, but thats not going to bring down capitalisum. Free books on internet, ok. Capitalism still here. I studied copyright at uni, yes, its length is far too long, getting it halved, say, wouldnt get rid of capitalism, but it might improve it, though less so in IT as the rate of progress is such that new inivation actually defeats long term copyright anyway. So, this actually promotes initiative invention and so on.

is there an alternate to neo liberalism? I would argue that government nationalisation with a controlled capitalist face is one such alternative. this should be done in selective parts of the economy where the capitalist model has broken down or is cannibalising the market. if we use banking as an example., government should set up a high st bank. it,s remit should be in mortgages and small loans. government should then stop insuring all other banks in the event of failure. the banks profits should then be reinvested into infrastructure via a government owned building contractor. now many would argue that nationalisation failed in the past, agreed, but if we have a private management structure head up these institutions then successful outcome should become more assured as long as government cannot interfere in the running of these companies except when they go outside their remit. these models can be used in various sections of the economy, the utilities being a prime example especially as they,'ve been shown to work as a cabal.

Chance. Typo

douglas murray got destroyed

@alicecasey9612

8 жыл бұрын

+Adam Khan He distroyed himself..awful man..to wrappped up in his own, what he thinks importance..you will find him on utube in other discussions,

Corporatism and Socialism have caused the problems

technolism!!!!

These liberals better hope not

Paul Mason - music graduate. LOL.

@69birdboy

8 жыл бұрын

and you have achieved what precisely ? reductionist smug twat

@leo333333able

8 жыл бұрын

+Angus MacLellan lol..it's funny cause it's true.

No

bahahaha Douglas Murray kicks ass in this especially in in his final remarks.

@SamuelDurkin

8 жыл бұрын

+Procession of Chains the examples he uses are all bad though.. as science has proved you can make gold from base metals. (its just cheaper to dig it up).. and machines are heading toward AI that could out think humans (even Steven Hawkin is worried about this).

@gaaaaaaaaaaah1

8 жыл бұрын

So we should accept fantasy economics? What are the consequences to those other speakers when their plan fails?

I get so tired of people quoting completely non-capitalist societies failing as a reason why capitalism fails. Just because a country is a first world country doesn't mean it follows capitalism. If you spend a budget amounting to the size of multiple full sized companies on social resources, that is simply not a capitalist country. If we're going to argue here that capitalism is dead, it's not because capitalism is failing, it's because governments have moved past it to try to secure more resources for themselves, because capitalism is inherently not to the benefit of government since it transfers wealth away from government as much as it possibly can, and yet government writes the rules on what type of economy we have. THAT is the part of the system that is fucked up and what leads to Greece - shitty politicians poorly educated on finance and economics who think you can bend the rules of money and that nothing will snap back.

@CarlyonProduction

4 жыл бұрын

Have you heard of the most true scotsman’ fallacy? That’s what you and all your friends are doing in the comments. Capitalism has existed in the west for a long time. Sure, most economies are mixed. But are you really suggesting that we should be 100 percent pure free market? Have you seen the Philippines? Also, we tried that here in the 1800’s, it was an unmitigated disaster.

Capitalist is choked by the ruling socialist. But is the socialist that is dying. When it dies, we'll have prosperity.

@Tenebrousable

8 жыл бұрын

***** Guess missed writing a word there "But IT is the socialism that is dying."

@Tenebrousable

8 жыл бұрын

***** USA in the fifties and sixties was the most prosperous nation in the history of the world. Socialisit ideas were almost non-existant then in the government. Then they started the welfare state and it has been a long downhill from there, has it not? Boy?

@Tenebrousable

8 жыл бұрын

***** Ok, that's cute.

@TheRedWabbit

8 жыл бұрын

+Tenebrousable - US in the 50's & 60"s had a quite high tax rate and a booming middle class helped by government programs like the GI Bill. We've lowered that tax rates (especially for the wealthy) starting in the eigthties. We also took off all of the protections that were put on after the crash of the 30's. Mantastic is quite right when he says that capitalism is killing us. We controlled it for awhile but the controls were taken off....as they would be taken off again by corporations and rich. Britain had rousing capitalism in the Victorian era, I don't recall that that was prosperity for much of population.

@Tenebrousable

8 жыл бұрын

TheRedWabbit Capital flows into lawmaking because it has literally infinite profit potential because of fiat currency. Making more money is just a matter of vote, it's not bound with anything real. Resulting in endless and accelarating inflation. Socialist shools bred an ignorant population willing to swallow the lie that it was a sustainable idea. The last lock on that was the gold standard. It's not capitalism if the capital is bailed out by the socialist. Those banks should have failed if we were living in something even close to a capitalistic society. Capital just invests and tries to make shit to sell. If no one buys, the investment is lost. Banks used the guarantees of the socialists that "everyone should own a house" and ran with it, they are socialist banks now. When one wants to make school more expensive, tell the school that tuitions loans are guaranteed by the government. It's not capitalism, it's crony capitalism, or facism. Like in China.

Maybe we could try capitalism (=economic freedom) before pronouncing it dead.

Being prudent interest ing system how would have such a system or be awoke,huh restart the system debt forgiven such as christians did somewhere like 7 years. Are people peons sleeping folks and such not free choosing.

"When you're on that plane working on your internet..." Says it all, doesn't it? Another privileged middle who lives in LaLa Land!!!

Have lost so much respect for Murray after seeing this.

When you base your argument on a soviet economist. Oh yeah, they had a great economy, no poverty at all!

@shmalfie8674

4 жыл бұрын

Do you know who Kondratieff was? He analysed capitalism and was ultimately executed for suggesting something that didn't propose imminent capitalist doom. Also, have you read Postcapitalism? Mason doesn't align his argument with Kondratieff's in fact he argues many points against his and then suggests something else. Most of mainstream economics takes inspiration from soviet economists (e.g. Eugene Slutsky's Yule-Slutsky Theorem). It may have been an awful agrarian system but their analysis of capitalism wasn't necessarily wrong.

Paul Mason is an Intel. Stooge.

please remember that most of the humans will not do anything good unless forced to do it.

@andrewgilmore4040

8 жыл бұрын

+Anteo Venier say that to almost every big company who donates millions of dollars to charity. Say that to the USA which has the largest amount of non profit organizations in the world. helping the world and its country tenfold on the donations of good people. Unforced. Just admit you wont donate money yourself and be a good person yourself and put that out on other people so they all pay taxes by force and pretend to be good people.

so many balding heads

What a load of gibberish.

@weejockpoopongmcplop

8 жыл бұрын

Hey I hate capitalism as much as the next bloke willing to sit through an hour long Paul Mason lecture. I just honestly wasn't sure what he was on about a lot of the time.

I think Mason needs therapy, not socialism. Talk about an eternal chip on his shoulder.

I don't think Mason himself even knows what he is talking about. He is more interested in the innate drama of the premise, and too happy to defer to others at the drop of a hat (because he is saying nothing, as are all the others).

@luciatilyard2827

8 жыл бұрын

+Peter Hastie I must agree, I have a hard time making out what they are trying to say! I think Mason is saying that a lot of people have found some alternative means of survival via the internet. Some ways of making life cheaper, (car pooling, skill swapping, etc). I'm flummoxed as to why they think Socialism will no longer be a working solution. I can't for the life of me see why not, but they all seem to have relegated it to the past. Seems to be an awful lot of hot air wafting around in this debate, but few concrete words!

@pfhastie

8 жыл бұрын

+Lucia Tilyard Something about open source outmoding socialism. Centrist bubble chatter. Socialism is alive and well, but the struggle continues.

@luciatilyard2827

8 жыл бұрын

Peter Hastie I for one, would welcome socialism back with open arms.

He needs notes to discredit capitalism? Does he need notes to promote socialism too? I love these people who need to “explain” what post capitalism is. They just make sh*t up. Also , why do women wave their hands around when that talk? Is it because they think it helps bind together their loose words?

nine minutes and forty seconds in, I have to pause it. Why? Because this guy is clueless. So far all he has talked about are the mistakes of governments, yet he blames it on capitalism. Too much inflation and debt and the use of force and violence are the result of government policy.

@patbateman2088

8 жыл бұрын

***** There will always be egomaniacs who strive for more in life. If you try to remove capitalism, you have to replace it with government. Then you have egotistical politicians, who wield far more power to do evil. In democracy we vote every five years. In the market consumers choose what they prefer everyday. Also there is no free market in banking. The banking system is designed by people at the top, that's why you have a central bank.