One thing to remember about the monk/fighter dual class is that at level 1, they're expert in Unarmored Defense, Unarmed Strikes, Perception and all 3 saves

@cgrandall625

2 жыл бұрын

Not to mention that it would be a Fighter with Flurry of Blows and increased mobility... Best defensive stats are groovy on a Fighter but best action economy on a Fighter are what make the combo OP to me.

"Arcane is the worst martial spell list." *Invisibility, Stoneskin, and True Strike are typing...*

@SleepySlann

2 жыл бұрын

True strike on a fighter is disgusting. The fighter also have several feats that work with the shield spell Arcane also have most of the form transmutation spells which benefit from that legendary unarmed proficiency. Not to mention all the mobility spells.

@danielscott5482

2 жыл бұрын

Mantle of the frozen/magma heart are crazy good for marshals, also the body spells aren't bad.

@ericpfauser5721

Жыл бұрын

This. I played a dual classed fighter / abjuration wizard in Age of Ashes. He specialized in swords and focused on a fencer/ great weapon fighting style centered on the bastard sword. He was a super fun, super effective character. His biggest downside was, unsurprisingly, action economy.

@sirsmiteful6285

Жыл бұрын

“Arcane is the worst martial spell list.” *Puts Magus in S+ tier like they deserve.*

The only thing I would really change is bumping up Barbarian to A. It's simplicity, rage damage, and the fact that both the fighter and barbarian share similar ability scores (baring a dex based fighter) just feels nice. It doesn't offer more options (like what druid does) but it doubles down on what fighter/barbarians like to do.

@MisterMixxy

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. I think Nat is *really* underselling just how powerful combining Barbarian minimum damage and Fighter crit chance really is. Especially with the higher Rage-damage instincts like Dragon. 32 extra damage on crits, when Fighters crit basically every other swing? It's horrifying.

@PlatonicLiquid

2 жыл бұрын

I've been doing a lot of math and comparing options to design properly balanced homebrew recently, and the barbarian rage damage is actually nuts, there's nothing like it in the game. The only thing that comes close is rogue sneak attack, as the average becomes 2 higher than some instincts at level 17. Rage damage bonus is also untyped, which as far as I'm aware is the only thing like it in the game, so it stacks with status and circumstance bonuses.

@Ryan-jc3ip

2 жыл бұрын

Barbarian + Fighter is basically: a) a Fighter with Barbarian level base damage and HP b) a Barbarian with Fighter accuracy and free Attack of Opportunity Is it deep and complex and varied? No. It does one thing. But that thing is to make things die one massive hit at a time. For damage alone it should really be A tier.

@kanpai44

2 жыл бұрын

In addition to all the barbarian instinct feats and bonuses. Imagine a fighter/barb with once per rage dragons breath and can polymorph into a dragon, getting to use their attack and damage bonuses

@MisterMixxy

2 жыл бұрын

@@kanpai44 Yeah. Nat *really* undersold how powerful a Barbarian/Fighter combo really is.

Prediction before watching: Magus - S Tier

@LauraFlacksNarrol

Жыл бұрын

Hate to break it to you buddy, but you were wrong it was S+ teir

@viktormadzov5286

9 күн бұрын

So the way I understand it is, there's really no issue for someone to play a Magus Fighter.....so long as the other player are ok with him being the defacto main character in the group, the classic (not modern) anime protaginist who still relly on the help and suport from his nakama to win in the end😂

I’d absolutely be down for more of these dual class rankings. Maybe a favorite build out of each class too

Surprised to see Alchemists at B class, but Barbarians at C? They complement the saving throws of Fighters, heavy armor makes the Rage AC penalty less problematic and the bonus damage is huge to a class that can crit so much.

Champion + Fighter makes your entire team unkillable. Reactive Shield (something Champion doesn't get, for some reason) + Quick Shield Block, Combat Reflexes, Divine Reflexes, and finally, Boundless Reprisal to be able to use 3 Reactions + 1 for every enemy is just ludicrous. IMO it should be S++ tier.

@allenbroussard1451

Жыл бұрын

If you really want to go ham with shield stuff, you can pick everguard stance and bastion dedication to get a third reaction for shields and more ally protection stuff. I would only do it with a race that gets some form of tail or horn attack though since your using both hands on the shield.

17:13 DaS says you *can* substitute Int, meaning you don't have to. So unless you really care about skill increases, Int can be a dump stat for you honestly (unless you're going for the Alchemy Investigator Subclass)

@SteveMan92

2 жыл бұрын

He was talking about the Precision damage though. Strategic Strike states "When making a Strike that adds your *Intelligence modifier on your attack roll* due to Devising a Stratagem"

@RattleJake84

2 жыл бұрын

Oh hey, fancy seeing you here

People, including Nonat in this video, tend to forget that the Fighter is more than just Legendary Proficiency in weapons. They end up with: Master in armor, Master in Fortitude, Master in Reflex, Expert in Will, Master in Perception. Claiming the "fighter's saving throws aren't that good and the Champion's are better" is just flat out wrong because they both get Master in 2 and Expert in one. Fortunately they are different so that specific dual class combo ends in all saves being master (only one better than straight fighter). Also people tend to forget that the Champion is Master Weapons Legendary armor while Fighter is opposite, Legendary Weapons master armor. Both are extremely good compared to other classes in terms of weapons and armor proficiencies (And saves too, but a little less outstanding), but slightly different on their Legendary focus. Also being MAD isn't that big of a deal in PF2e given the fact that every time you get a stat boost you get 4 of your 6 stats boosted. You can start any class with an 18 and a 16 while boosting them every level and over the levels the other secondary stats will get filled out too.

Small objection about the cleric: a cleric gets a feat that allows him to have Bless perma-cast centered on him. Basically, that's kind of like Inspire Courage, but permanent - and benefits the rest of the team as well. Sure, this might not be enough to increase the tier of a cleric, but boy howdy is it ever useful!

@KingJulius4

2 жыл бұрын

What feat is that?

@pontchristophe3938

2 жыл бұрын

@@KingJulius4 Eternal Blessing at 16th

@theworldevolved4288

2 жыл бұрын

@@pontchristophe3938 bit too late in my opinion

I would rate speed improvements a bit higher. Higher speed means fewer actions spent striding, so that bumps up Swashbuckler and Monk IMO, while counting against Champion.

@viktormadzov5286

9 күн бұрын

So that would make a Lv20 Figher-Monk the pinickle of pure marshal exelance a mortal could hope to acheave, while Lv 20 Fighter-Swashbuckler the mightiest mortal swardmaster in the world. Yeah, sounds about right to me😊

I like how everything you said about the Magus was about it being able to deliver those cantrips. The full-strength max level slots being delivered via sword can't even be mentioned or it would sound hyperbolic.

@askaveng7911

2 жыл бұрын

This combo is only powerful in terms of burst damage from one attack. Fighter/Rogue or Fighter/Ranger or, probably, Fighter/Barbarian are way more powerful in terms of damage per round due to the number of attacks and bonus damage

@pontchristophe3938

2 жыл бұрын

@@askaveng7911 yeah. But the fun dude.

@sirsmiteful6285

Жыл бұрын

@@askaveng7911 I mean, you don’t need to charge the spellstrike every turn. Fighter is still nutty without spellstrike, and Magus still gains legendary spell proficiency. Cantrip sat range to offset being far away without a bow or while you retreat. Then if the enemy is stupid enough to follow you, prep the spellstrike and wait.

Just to defend oracles for a bit i will state some good things about fighter-oracle that came to mind. -Battle oracle's curse gives you pratically the same damage bonus as an fury instinct barbarian and fast regen equal to half your level and you bonus to initiative and other really good focus spells AND you can still cast buffs like heroism. -the cosmos oracle benefit gives you 2+half of your level to resist all physical damage for free, for the rest of your life, just take it, your focus spells will be useless, sure, but thats ok, you still acess to good buffs. -ancestors give you two ancestry feats for free(lv 1 and 11)...( ok, its not that good, i agree..) But still, i think battle and cosmos are enought to boost oracle close to barbarian. And also, this is valid to bards and sorceres too, fighter multiclassing with a charisma based character makes him really good at intimidation, just to crit a little bit more easier.

@theworldevolved4288

2 жыл бұрын

even with cosmos' useless focus spells you still have those sweet oracle focus points if you archetype into something else, like blessed one, that 2+half level resistance + lay on hands + the ability to cast heal spells must be great, not even mentioning using a shield or an archetype into desecrator paladin for greater damage resistance, you just become a sponge at this point

Hmm seeing you talk about having to use an agile and finesse weapon and losing damage. All I'm thinking is that those weapons say you may use the dex instead for a finesse weapon for attack rolls. Nothing stopping you from building a strength based rapier build to get all that damage.

@ZeroRoyale

2 жыл бұрын

You can use dex for attack rolls. Not damage rolls. That always uses strength, unless you’re a thief rogue

Fighter + Cleric of Ragathiel = Insanely strong. You can deliver crazy damage with channel smite, heal yourself, buff, debuff, cast True strike, haste and you got that bust on your Will save. Hard to beat

@theworldevolved4288

2 жыл бұрын

man did his research for this one

Fighter/Cleric is more a way to improve a cloistered into a better warpriest, than to improve the fighter side.

Great video as always NoNat. I definitely think there's a reason that the GMG has a warning about allowing two martial classes for dual classing... Some of the combos that can happen (particularly with Fighter or Magus + another martial) are OP as hell. A dual class with 2 full casters is nowhere near as game breaking.

@philopharynx7910

2 жыл бұрын

Being in a dual-class game currently at lvl 16, this is definitely true. And the martial is much stronger than the dual spellcaster. The martial does things like get to use the fighter proficiency with another classes' damage boost. They are much more powerful. Dual spellcasters have more slots and more flexibility. It's more of a boost in endurance than a boost in power.

One point of clarification: With Devise a Stratagem, when you roll the d20, you *must* use that result against the creature you targeted with Devise a Stratagem if you Strike them that round. You only get to ignore the result of the die roll if you attack something else

Bestial mutagen can get d12s and d10 agile attacks. Combined with agile grace and the fact that mutagens give you a +1 to hit, tear things apart. Monk archetype to get flury of blows for bonus points

"Arcane it's the worst tradition on fighter" True Strike it's looking at you

@nicholasromero238

2 жыл бұрын

True strike is far better for casters than it is for for martials, actually

@rasleyforde2363

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholasromero238 hmmm, why this? Isn't double the dice, bigger the crit chance?

@nicholasromero238

2 жыл бұрын

@@rasleyforde2363it's odd statistics, but basically, you're more likely to to get one of: two hits (same damage as a crit), one crit, an hit and a crit, or two crits by simply striking twice than you are from getting crit off of true strike. This isn't to say true strike doesn't have it's place on a martial, for example, true strike plus power attack, spellstrike, alchemical shot, etc., and if I find myself in a position where I spend all three actions striking, a true strike, strike, strike is probably better than a strike, strike, strike, though in this event, you also should gauge whether it's better to use a demoralize, feint, take cover, etc. In dual class, you also have more stuff for these fillers as well, such as inspire courage, force bolt, and so on that compete for that slot as well

@rasleyforde2363

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholasromero238 I was thinking about True Strike, Strike Strike. Does Feiting or Demoralizing are better than true strike? I'm not comparing take cover since it's a defensive actions instead of offensive ine

@nicholasromero238

2 жыл бұрын

@@rasleyforde2363 I'm not totally sure; it's kinda situational. The bonus comes out to be around +5 for true strike from the stats I've seen, but this is when you have about 50/50 odds, and the benefits are lower the further you get from that. It's probably better than feinting, unless you are a rogue trying to get sneak attack, especially if you're a scoundrel and using scoundrel's feint to soften up the target's ref save vs an ally's spell. Demoralize is worse for you, but probably better overall since your allies benefit as well, especially if you are in a larger party. Demoralize also lowers their to hit roles, making it somewhat defensive, too All this aside, I'm not sold the arcane list is the worst for a martial; imo thats actually primal, oddly enough. Primal is a powerful list, but I feel a fighter/caster dual class wants spells as a toolkit rather than as a main point in their turn by turn thing and arcane has a lot of tools. It has a lot of control spells, and honestly, it's really noce when you can cast wall of stone/ice and trap you and your enemy in a gladiatorial death ring, fly up to bonk anyone, etc, etc

The Gunslinger doesn't gain much if anything from the Fighter and vice versa. A Gunslinger tier list is definitely needed. Gunslinger + Magus = Rain of Pain

One point for the fighter/cleric combo: Smite. It's a very low level feat, but it has no save, it uses the fighters accuracy to it's advantage, it scales with the level, and, if you took a harm font instead of a heal one, you have a very large pool of nukes every day. All of witch may crit very easily. For real, the burst damage of this combo (that is really not that obscure) is OBSCENE.

The fighter has been my favorite class since I started 21 years ago. I always play one first in every system I try. Since we always play with dual class of course I played some of your choices ;-). Great idea for a great video!

These type of videos are my favorites. Not even just for games, but in general. I love seeing someone verbally convince themselves of things, while sometimes even changing their own minds. Most people don’t seem to think about why they think certain ways. They just go with it because of the nurture/nature of it. I am fascinated by it though.

I like how you explain the options, possibilities and details. Thanks for it! I would like to have tier list of Dual class for Wizard :)

Just starting the video. Hoping to see mention of a Witch/Fighter with reach hair that grapples your enemies Edit: no mention 😫 I get it. It’s a niche build that doesn’t pop into your head unless you think about it. As cool as grappling someone with your hair is, you’re better off as a witch using your actions on spells anyway

@Nonat1s

2 жыл бұрын

I looooove the idea though, and I might try to theory-craft that! Might be better as a witch-monk actually! Some stances would actually let you use your hair to attack with!!

@MrBoredinthedorm

2 жыл бұрын

So a Jiraiya build then.

I would love to see something like this for the other classes! Or even something like this but with each class using free archetype variant rule, ranking the archetypes from the Advanced Players Guide (like a Fighter with Beastmaster vs Fighter with Bastion)

Personally I'd move the Fighter/Druid up to top of A just for the wild shape +2 cheese but still wouldn't put it in S because it's only a very specific build to do that and so many fighter feats require a weapon that you'd be quite limited in what combines.

I'd actually really love to see the best and worst synergies of dual classes. Make more!

@viktormadzov5286

9 күн бұрын

Was just about to say the same thing. Although I imagine that would be a preaty massive video, as there are 55 dual classes (useing only the core classes), and 171 total ( with the 19 he used here) possible in the game😅

One thing to note. When you dual class, you get the key ability score from both classes.

True strike for arcane spellcasters, heroism for divine and occult. Flurry ranger making 4 attacks at level 1 with twin takedown. Duel class sounds like so much fun for a campaign. Let your players feel like a squad of superheroes that are able stand toe to toe with beasts that make normal folks shake with fear at the mere mention of them. Love the videos NoNat! Videos like these let me learn more about the cool rules and ways to play 2e.

18:33 Best part of the video!!! LOL On a serious side though: Tier videos are ok here and there but personally I am not a fan of them so I hope you don't do them too terribly often! I will still play them when you do to help out with all the KZread stuff though! I also am likely in the minority of dis liking these kinds of videos because EVERYONE is doing them and they seem to be doing very well for all the different channels I watch!

Dual classes are still limited to 3 actions per turn, so I would say picking something with a lot of passive enhancements is best or something that enhances a specific ability.

Awesome content! I really want to see oracle next!

Nice video. My only thought is you ranked on pure power and less on versatility. So I would say some of the casters, while not deadly with a weapon would be a lot more versatile. I guess it would depend on what you are looking for in your party. I would assume that the only reason to use this variant rule would be because you have a very small party. If that is the case then I would think you would want versatility over pure power. Just my 2cents though....

What are the odds, my commute is exactly 36 minutes today, and i need something to listen to, and then i see this!

so after this we gonna see 20 other dual class tier list combination videos ? I'm down for that ;-) Keep it up :-) PS thats around 116 class combinations XD

The only time I have ever dual classed a summoner was with an oracle back in 1e. It turned out pretty well but 1e summoner was pretty overpowered.

"Spontaneous spiders" - yup, i agree! On another note, do note that dual-class option does get you both ability increase from your two classes, making you able to reach 18 in 2 abilities instead of 1. Sure you may fall short on other abilities, but a full spallcaster being also full fighter is indeed a terrible foe to encounter. Also at last, fighter has okay damage, but not as high as you're implying. While dual-classing, several classes do get better damage, namely rogue, ranger, or the two elephants in the room, barbarian and magus. A magus critmachine is honestly far more terrifying to face than any other martial.

@ReaperGrimm5594

2 жыл бұрын

Wait it does?!

@HenshinFanatic

2 жыл бұрын

No it doesn't. Under the Character Advancement section on pg 193 things that everyone gets (Ability Increases, General Feats, Skill Feats, Skill Increases) only happen once per level.

Great List, but I would argue about one point. When you said that Rogue will be at least B Tier for Skill Feats and Increases alone, you should consider that Investigators get those as well. True, they need to take every other Skill Increase and Feat in a Int, Wis or Char based skill but those are most of them anyways. I can understand ranking Rogues higher than an Investigator because of the really outstanding Rogue Feats on the list. But I think Skill Proficiencies and feats, as well as precision damage that does scale much better than Barbarian Rage damage plus prerolling and skipping Nat1s entirely (having literally a NoNat1-Build :D ) I think Rogues and Investigators both make really strong second classed for nearly any class, as you already siad. But the most disgusting thing would be a build mashing those two together On another note, should you ever do such a video on Multi Class Rogues, consider that Rogue Investigators would start on Lvl 1 with 16 to 20 Skills (depending on Int Mod) on Trained (1 From Background, 1 From Rogue Class, 1 From Rogue Racket, 1 from Investigator Class, 1 From Investigator Methodology, 7 Free Increases from Rogue Class, 4 Free Increases from Investigator Class and Int Bonus Free Increases on top of that). This is basically all skills on the list plus 1-4Lores. Furthermore they get 2 Increases per Level, which sums up to a total of 36 Skill Increases between Level 2 and 20. Considering that you can only get to Master on Level 7, there are at least 10 Increases that you will use to become Expert in a skill. Between Lvl 7 and 14 there are 16 Skill Increases, 10 of which you can use to become Master in those Expert Skills you had before, the reamining 6 you can use to bump another 3 Skills to Master (Totalling at 13 out of 16 Skills in which you are a Master). Then from 15 to 20 you get another 12 Skill Increases to Increase 12 of your Skills to Legendary Proficiency.

[chanting] FIGHTER CHAMP! FIGHTER CHAMP! FIGHTER CHAMP!

I'd absolutely love to see you do a dual class ranking for Oracle.

My favorite dual class is barbarian, any instinct, plus battle Oracle. Focus spells to amp up the curse, then rage.

I want to see this for dual-class rogues. Something tells me a Rogue+Ranger stands on top - and may even make Outwit competitive.

I'd have put the spellcasting classes higher, tbh, especially arcane. But that's mostly because I value a lateral expansion of ability over being able to do the thing you're good at better, and the arcane spell list has excellent utility. My favorite dual class is twisting tree magus/staff nexus universalist wizard.

24:00 it's a d4 where a 1 gives +1 to hit, a 2 gives you +1 to trip for flat footed and a 4 lets you choose. Sure a 3 does not mesh with fighter but you have a 50% chance of getting your bonus to hit and damage (which doubles with crits) and 25% for an almost as good boost, which can lead to a bigger boost to hit. Some general considerations I didn't really see in the video; - Fighters really rely on that critical hit to do damage, they really don't have a lot of ways to boost their base damage, so classes that do that, work great, especially if it gives them access to non physical damage types, which is all the fighter can do. - While not as impressive as the champion, master in all types of armour and shield block is a great boon to many classes, who otherwise would need to invest in Dex to increase AC This includes strength based monks who no longer need Dex for AC - that said some classes actually loose features when using heavy or even medium armour, which means you loose features either way you go. Lastly cake butterfudge peanut.

One thing of note for summoner is the tandem strike feat, which lets you make 2 attacks on the same MAP, which has the same perk as the first two actions of an agile flurry ranger. Then you have two actions leftover for two attempts to demoralize or sustain a summon spell you cast last turn to get two more actions on a creature that doesn’t have MAP. I do think one interesting thing you found on your tier list is how horizontal scaling versus vertical scaling is a super important thing in balancing the game.

@grayson9124

2 ай бұрын

Further, I actually think summoner might be one of the better spellcasting multi classes for the fighter because with a fairly simple build, you can get those spells on the eidolon, which means you can get the benefits of casting a 2 action save spell/cantrip and still have two actions left and you get a second stat spread to do skills with. I don’t think this makes the summoner broken for the fighter in any capacity, but I think it’s still decidedly more powerful than straight fighter. (If you also have the ranger dedication you can take one of their attack flourish feats for the wackiest action economy the world has ever known)

I have the incredible fortune to be both running and playing a dual-classed campaign! I'm going to be playing a dual-classed Investigator/Spellshot Gunslinger and I'm really excited to see how it plays!

Would love more dualclass vids like this, maybe not a video for every class ranking their second class even if that would be awesome, but a video like the one you did for the best class and multiclass archetype combo would be great! Or maybe a few vids discussing the best dualclass combos for specific character roles/types, like "Best dualclass combos for support characters" or tanks, damage dealers (which is what most "best" combos refer to), or party face. The last thing I wanna add is probably something very niche, but the GM in me wanna see a video about how to make your players create a powerful NPC from their backstory and making them a dualclass. Just imagine a player making their character's parent a Ganondorf power level NPC and then springing them on the party as a tragic villain... (ahhhhh the angst, it's delicious). But it also involves the players more in the world, I think :3

would love to see more of these

Very well thought out and researched. I would have put the Cleric in the very subjective list as A tier. If you like playing a Warpriest dual classing with a Fighter is amazing. So what's the difference between a dual Fighter/ Warpriest and a dual Warpriest/ Fighter....just perspective. The Fighter/Monk is a lot better than you think (and you thought very highly of it as is). In combat they are so ridiculously versatile goes beyond the min/max Attack and Damage element. Lastly, most characters get retired before they reach 11th level so I think more focus on the early benefits of various dual classes bring is more interesting, I lose interest when people talk about what a class can do at 18th level. I've played these RPGs for decades and have never ever reached that level. Please do Ranger dual class next.

Tier list seems fairly accurate, with good arguments backing each position.

20:06 What I came here for. You pour out that respect on my Magus, son!

GESTALT HYPE GESTALT HYPE

Nice overall list I mostly agree with. I would put Monk in front of Magus though, since it complements everything the Fighter is lacking: Saves, AC, action economy, focus spells, speed and self heal via Wholeness of Body, which is better than Lay on Hands. Sure, Magus gives you pure damage with Spellstrike, but basically nothing else.

Also, summoner/bard is great. You can do the classic cast + two single eidolon actions or a 2-action eidolon activity with inspire courage + boost eidolon, which gives you a lot of flexibility in at-will actions. And both composition cantrips and boost eidolon can be extended via lingering composition and extend boost, so you have a lot of action economy flexibility. Bard is already a solid class, and getting your own martial to buff is solid, especially with two spell lists (I like primal to compliment the occult list for reflex AOEs). You are right about martial multiclass with summoner, though. The only one that sort of works is champion as you can use your champion reaction on the eidolon and gang up on an enemy with tandem strike at 6 to get around some of the MAP limitations, and lay on hands on yourself also heals your eidolon. Use devotion for maximum "don't hit my friend." But it's the only combo I've made work, and isn't amazing at low levels. But most casters, especially charisma casters, mesh really well with the summoner, especially with more action flexible eidolons (ones with no or few 2-action activities) like plant, angel, construct, devotion, or psychopomp, as it becomes easy to cast a spell then have 2 effective actions left over for the eidolon, so spell -> stride -> strike, spell -> strike -> strike, or spell -> boost -> strike all become very solid turns, even with cantrips (but with a full caster plus bounded caster you tend to be able to cast pretty frequently). They aren't good with fighter or most other martials, but summoner plus casters are really strong as a multiclass in my experience, and can be really fun to play with the extra actions.

First I'de like to thank you for your videos! I've greatly enjoyed numerous videos you have posted - they are informative and fun to watch. I'm drawing a few insights here from your ranking and discussions. First, it seems to me that you are focusing heavily (perhaps almost exclusively) on how the second class serves to make the fighter more powerful in combat - vs. how the second class makes the character a more capable agent of change in a game overall. Given that is the case, I wonder at why arcane casting is not considered more potent? While the "S" tier picks surely make a fighter more capable at physical combat, it would seem that giving a fighter the advantages that would come from having arcane casting abilities should confer a number of potent extra options in combat. In other games this would be use of spells that do significant damage at range, or which can damage a large number of enemies at once, or which may be somewhat defensive and perhaps deal damage over time.. Coupling such casting abilities with the toughness of a fighter would seem to be a potent mix. The fact that this doesn't seem to be under consideration makes me wonder if in P2E arcane casters have lost their MOJO? While combat is the crucible for games like P2E, I usually find the best games are more oriented on accomplishing objectives that go beyond the combat - things that are focused on making changes in the overall "tapestry" of the game. These can be political or socio-economic. For these kinds of campaigns I think some of the other classes would turn what can often be a socially brutish sort of class into a character with polish, political and social skills, etc. which would serve them well. Given how highly you ranked it, I suppose the rogue dual class would be among the best at serving both to give the fighter many extra social "non-combative" options, but still provide an enhancement of combat ability. Cheers! JW

I came to this video to see how nasty a Fighter Champion looked since that was the one that jumped off the page for me. I am glad you had the same thought process haha.

Please do more dual class content.

I built a Fighter-Monk as a GM insert character (I only had two players) and took Manastic Weaponry as my 1st-level Monk Feat. I didn't even consider at the time that MW grants you proficiency increases alongside unarmed strikes. Normally, Monks start trained, but fighter meant I started as expert. I gave him a Temple Sword so he could basically Flurry with a longsword starting at +9 at level 1. And Temple Swords have Trip.

For Fighter Rogue, the fighter does have the Snagging Strike feat, you could make a strike, the opponent's now flat-footed then you make a second strike with your -4(i think for agile weapons, with a fighter's proficiency)

Loved it.Many times I said "neh, I don't agree". Then I thought about it a lot, aaand I might have come to a similar ranking as you. I still think you're underestimating spellcasters, especially the sorecerer, since there's now quite a lot of low actions spells/reactions, so with the feat that grants you extra attack of opportunity, you can always spare that reaction for some nice spells. But yeah the MAD issue is a thing, I agree. So yeah, no, liked the video ˆˆ

@pontchristophe3938

2 жыл бұрын

I'd like to add that while the deep dives into a class or ancestry gives a good thorough analysis of it, the tier list videos on the other hand consider a more global approach (as you state repeatidely :p ), and it's a great perspective to get a glimpse of your (as always personnal) global view of a class.

It would be cool for a list for what would pair well with a rogue. Although I'm probably more curious as to why so many people hate rogue with a spellcaster archetype. It just seems so cool and useful.

@Taranis2734

2 жыл бұрын

I played Rogue/Bard. It was extremely self-sufficiant and powerful, and there really wasn't any situation i couldnt do well at on my own. To top it off i could also just switch to being more supportive if needed and let my party handle the problem. My bread and butter was dirge of doom + dread striker.

I'm gonna go on a little rant here so before anything else, I love the channel and Loved the video. Also, I know that making such a tier list is basically impossible as Pathfinder has so many choices. That being said I'd like to add a few thoughts just for fun and try to show that every fighter/x dual class can be S-tier : (TLDR : there is more than combat in rpgs) Alchemist : you get a familiar, chose valet and independant and he can drop your potions in your hand and you get to keep three action! Poisons become wayyyyy better. The risk of poison is to critically miss. Sure fighter crit a lot, but he just as much does not miss! Also darkvion and speed elixir are just op. Cleric : the best healing/buffing coupled to fighter seem strong, also, sustain a spell for a summon that can even more heal/buff IN COMBAT really seems op. Heavy armor AND full spellcasting is better than it first looks. There is a reason why casters don't get Heavy armor. (Battle Oracle being the exception but paying a heavy price for it) Investigator: 2nd best Perception in the game (with ranger and after rogue) and All the utility you want Bard : (being the best class in the game) CANNOT not be S. You get to be the best striker, buffer, debuffer and face if you so choose. Cast Bless, every one gets + 1, Dirge of Doom, every body gets - 1, then crit on a 3. Maestro/warrior is just perfect here. Witch : full plate full caster, all the utility, any spell list but even better than that THE BEST FAMILIAR THE GAME HAS TO OFFER. Take all the familiar feet and there is nothing it can't do. Fly, darkvision, speech. It becomes the best scout in the game. Wizard: augmenting your strengths is always effective, complementing your weakness can be even better. Take Divination, Abjuration, Illusion. You can fly, turn invisible. Your the best in 1on1 and in AoE. Summoner : Yes you hurt more than your Eidolon, but tandem is just too good. You can basically get permanent flat-Footed, buff yourself, crit under a 10. Or make your Eidolon a spellcaster, or a mount, or both! You can, once again, summon things to buff you, move with Eidolon to get flat-footed, use Act together to sustain, now you get two action and summon still have two actions to cast! (and yes, you get to play with 6 actions) Oracle : woulb be too complicated/too long to get into. This class got me interested in the game first. Battle Oracle gets a high level feat only to take SOME fighter feats at half your level. So getting all of them has to be busted. Anyway I'll stop there. Dual class is fun. This makes me wanna start a campaign and embrace the power creep. Two friends and me as the GM. The children of the prophecy, one Barbarian/monk, one Fighter/sorcerer.

@mrcorbak6793

2 жыл бұрын

Woops just forgot an important point about the benefits of full caster. Since you take the best of the two, other d10 classes don't give you more hp than d6/8 (casters) But getting Heroism, True Strike, Haste every day, every fight. Use all spell slots for that, you can True Strike 10 times a day if needed

Something about bards:they also have access to the true strike spell

One combination of classes that I personally find busted that I’m currently playing is a monk rouge with the thief racket. At level 5 when I introduced him to the party after a combat encounter my GM asked me to set him aside because of how quickly I shut down the fight

I feel like I have to point out that the Oracle's curses don't eat into your action economy if you don't want them to. You can cast the focus spells outside of combat and your curse will stay until you refocus, and some mysteries like Battle have really good action economy on their focus spells. (Battle starts with a reaction focus spell that's cast on initiative, and all of its other focus spells are either one action or come with a free Strike attached.)

@Nonat1s can you do more of these? I really liked this one!

@Nonat1s

2 жыл бұрын

Keep your eyes peeled this week 😉

31:27 As we in the business like to call it, "The gods look your direction for a brief instant and say DAYUM" crit

I do agree summoner is kinda clunky, but I wanna point out that act together + tandem strike allows you to make four atacks with two actions... This paired with heroism for your eidolon's accuracy, garanteed oportunity atack thanks to your eidolon's weigthy impact, the possibility to fly and access to all spell lists makes this dual class not only exceptional in damage dealing but also really great at having solutions to a Ton of problens (and also, when youre this great at action economy, dont understate the option of having an eidolon as your personal pet caster.).

I think the spell casting classes should be a bit higher just because of the Magus and Eldridge Archer Archtypes. It enables you to use level ten spellslots with your weapon strikes which should be worth something

Cleric: Eh, some of those cleric focus spells are pretty nice. Investigator: You don't necessarily need a high dex as devise a strategem uses Int to hit. So highest Int, High Str and heavy armor for AC.

MORE!!! I wanna see this for the Gunslinger, Barbarian, Summoner and Sorcerer

Cleric honestly deserves to be higher on the tier list for a few reasons. First, the Cleric list has a ton of buffs that don't require amazing WIS - Bless is notable for giving a straight-up +1 to hit for a minute as just a Level 1 spell, and you aren't as fragile as a standard cleric on the frontline so it's easier to help your team with even the smaller auras. Second, Channel Smite on a negative energy fighter is absolutely nutty, since the damage is only dependent on hitting and you can afford to prepare Harm a ton on a lower WIS build. Those crits are juicy! Third, the Cleric gets a lot of class feats for boosting their own personal damage and survivability that are extremely good on a fighter - Emblazon Energy is just +1d4 or +1d6 damage permanently, Extend Align Armament lets you spend an action to get +1d6 alignment damage for a full minute as a single action - no spells needed! - and Replenishment of War gives you temp HP every time you hit with your deity's favored weapon and *doubles* on a crit! But if you ask me, the really meaty option is the level 12 feat Emblazon Antimagic. If you use a shield, you get its bonus to saves against magic when raised and can Shield Block spells just like a Sparkling Targe Magus, and if you forgo that energy damage boost you can Emblazon your weapon to counteract a spell on your target when you crit once before it vanishes, and since it can be reapplied in 10 minutes you can get a lot of free dispels. Honestly, Cleric offers so much in the way of powerful feats and spells for a Fighter dual-class, and easily deserves at least a high A-tier ranking. Imagine a Warpriest cleric with Legendary weapon proficiency, better armor proficiency scaling, and +2 HP per level. It's beautiful!

@lilifoliaenvt

2 жыл бұрын

Forgot to mention, some Domain Spells are really good on a Fighter! Special mention to Athletic Rush to get a +2 Status bonus to Athletics for those trip and grab attempts, Weapon Surge for a +1 Status bonus to hit and an extra damage die, Sudden Shift to Step and become Concealed as a reaction when an attack misses you, and Protector's Sacrifice for a champion-style reaction to take some damage for a teammate (which you can just Heal up next turn :p). And that's just from the Level 1 options - I'm sure there's a couple useful advanced domain spells available later on for the right build.

Barbarian should be A or even S, synergy between certain strike and rage is just disgusting

MOAR Dual Class Tierlists, and then we can take the best from all the lists and determine the TRUE tier list

How did I miss this? For a draconic sorcerer, True Strike is a granted spell, so you get +1 to AC for a round every time you use it. That is some pretty sweet synergy.

Taking the Champion archetype for Champion reactions is fantastic for classes without reactions. Armour Inventor with a Champion reaction makes a pretty good frontline tank.

Also food for thought, a flurry ranger has twin takedown feat at lvl 1 so it gets 4 potential hits on target. First action -0/-2 second action -4 third action -4. Oh and here's another thought, you can also get a second first lvl feat for ranger and gain gravity weapon and be gaining a die for 10 rounds. Rest 10 minutes and can do it again.

I'd love to see "build tiers" for each class. Not just subclass, but for example, your opinion on dual wield focused fighter versus archer fighter. That sort of thing.

@harjutapa

2 жыл бұрын

a tier list of monk stance chains could be awesome, as well. I'm partial to Mountain, personally, but I'd love to hear the thoughts of a more experienced person.

For the next dual class tier list video, you should take a "versatile" base class (not one too centred into one approach, such as oracle or barbarian). I advise rogue or champion. But the fighter was the best first choice you could have picked according to me.

I think you're forgetting about knockdown fighter with AoO with rage damage. I feel that's easily A tier on your list.

this is kinda off topic but something I've always fiddled with in my head is the idea of a flurry ranger mixed with rogue, the idea of the build is you have specifically the probing cane, as it is the only weapon with finesse, sweep, and no agile, along with a whip, as it has finesse, trip, and no agile, the reason you don't want agile is so you can later archetype into barbarian, the rage only provides half damage on agile weapons, while also getting the ranger's mature animal companion which has a free action to move towards or attack your prey, if you use it as a mount it's basically discount quickened. anyway after raging you use your animal companion to either move where you want to be or get a free extra strike in, attempt a trip with your whip, hopefully succeeding, then using twin takedown, getting bonus damage from your rage, your sneak attack, having a plus 2 to hit from the creature being flat footed due to the tripping, after the twin takedown you can choose to attack up to 2 more times, and at this point the probing cane will have a free +1 due to the sweep trait, still dealing sneak attack and rage damage, and last but not least since you tripped your target they need to waste an action standing up on their turn

@theworldevolved4288

2 жыл бұрын

a bit more on topic you can also replace rogue with fighter and replace barbarian with whatever you want to make a sick hit chance build, this time you use the hatchet and kukri, they are similar to the last two weapons but include agile, the moves you make will be the same except for not raging first, but with one thing standing out, standing up after being tripped is considered a move action, meaning you get your attack of opportunity, giving another free hit up to 5 unless they just lay there and accept death, keep in mind that after your first strike with that hatchet it's max hit penalty is -3, and since you're a fighter you'll be hitting things easier than your companions, also the target is tripped, so assuming that being a fighter gives you a +2 to hit over your buddies, at this point on your 5th strike you will have better odds than a normal character on their first, not to mention you could probably squeeze at least +1 out of that archetype, and finally with this build specifically all except the animal companion work from level 1 until your character dies or you get banned from the table

@theworldevolved4288

2 жыл бұрын

oh yes, and trip is classified as a check, meaning assurance would apply, so if your enemy is something with average or worse fortitude you can just take a skill feat and be golden

Now imagine a plane formation: Dual Class with each class geting the Free Archetype "side" aka getting 2 archetypes at the same time. Add the Paragon Ancestry for more ancestry feats and you get the extremly powerful and difficult to RP character.

@JacksonOwex

2 жыл бұрын

I can't find words for this except for: No, just NO!!!

Please do more Duel Class stuff. Duel Class and Free Archetype are my favorite thing in PF2E. Also we should talk about how broken Magus/Rangers are just with the subclass synergy.

When I was playing AoA with two players we were gonna do Dual class when the GMG released and I got to theorycraft my Champion as a Dual class with Fighter and it was amazing. (Un)Fortunately we got more players for the game. So dual class was no longer needed.

I've never used the Dual Class variant, mostly sticking to Free Archetypes. I might look into it for my next campaign (if I can ever get any players because the people I have been trying to play with for 3 years keep flaking due to experiences they had 5 years ago with bad DMs)

The summoner might go well with flurry ranger. Twin Takedown + Act Together + Haste spell at 5th level. Have the eidolon make the first attack, and then you make the remaining 5 attacks at a -2 then -4 penalty. Just casually making twice as many attacks as anyone else is able to.

Lots of updates since the new stuff came out, but Fighter/Inventor is pretty damn strong. You pick the armor innovation and dump on dex. It allows you to start off alot stronger than normal, not having to spend cash on armor but having heavy armor at level 1/2 is pretty big. You can pick up repair kit, healers tools, a bastard sword, and a steel shield all on the 15gp starting gold and your AC will be super high.

Hey Nonat, quick question! I would like to now what is the difference between an archetype and dual-class.. I mean in terms of function.. What are the benefits of each one? If you have a video about this, sorry for not noticing! Love your content and can't wait for more dual class tier lists, especially for the Ranger :P

Just a suggestion, but a tier list of dual class fighter or any other class that helps other players would be neat. Like a fighter or archer (eh) that buffs those around them rather than being used as purely as dps.

We're playing a Dual-Class campaign and reaching an inflection point where the DM is encouraging us to rethink our builds down to the class level. The thing is, he's banning all Fighter/Martial dual class combos going forward for exactly these reasons (and we're on board, we have one Fighter/Barbarian, which I agree is the weakest of the martial combos, and she's absolutely OP). He's considering banning some Gunslinger and Champion combos as well. We want a strong and diverse campaign but we don't want a min-max arms race or one character to completely outshine the rest.

Well, i'm making a Dual Class with Fighter and Cleric, going with Unholy and harmful Font, and, with emblazon armament and a few more things you can get a pretty decent amount of extra damage

I would honestly bump Cleric up to A tier simply because of Fighter + Channel Smite would be a devastating combo. The biggest downside of the Warpriest Cleric is its lower weapon and armor proficiencies, meaning they have issues hitting those Channel Smite attacks. Fighter fixes all that and gives them better armor proficiencies, allowing them to stay in melee for the entire fight. AND, since the Fighter gives you everything the Warpriest Doctrine gives you, you can actually go Cloistered Cleric and get up to Legendary spellcasting without sacrificing anything. When you start thinking about all those d8's or d10's (with harming/healing hands) doubling on a crit, it becomes clear that Fighter+Cleric is going to be doing some ridiculous damage. If Magus+Fighter deserves S tier, Cleric+Fighter is definitely A tier. Also, you are still an absolute godly healer on top of your amazing damage. The downside is that Channel Smite is a specific 2-action attack, which does conflict with all of the Fighter's special attack actions. But Spellstrike is a specific attack action and the Magus earn its S tier rank. Plus, when spell slots are low, those attack actions will come in handy.

I once dual classed my swashbuckler with fighter and hoo boy let me tell you: Stunning finisher with power attack can get pretty damn strong

Still waiting on the feat videos for the Psychic and Thaumaturge. Really can't wait to see what ya think.

Nonat: Tier Lists: Exists

I have the opposite opinion as you on the Monk/Champion debate. I think the monk is better early from the early power spike of a stance plus the boosted AC and Attack right at the start. But once you get going in the feats you can snag feats from Fighter and Champion to get bonus reactions so that you could get Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block, AND the champion reaction every round. Your between-turn power is nuts.

I'd totally be down for a wizard dual class, get the og 2 done

I’d personally like to see a multiclass archetype tier list to see which classes would make the best/least awful multiclass option.