He literally said he's like Kuyper!!!??? Oh my goodness gracious

Owen is so frustrating to me. No one is saying that taking over politics is the great commission or the gospel. No one is saying we take out Brazil for coffee and disciple Brazil. Governments and countries are made up of people who belong to and live under countries and governments and a regenerate person leads to more regenerate persons which leads to regenerate governments and countries. Get it straight.

Owen seems to be straw-manning. He says Psalm 2 is not being fulfilled by us. He pushes off the fulfillment to the 2nd coming. I have never heard any post-mill teacher say that WE fulfill Psalm 2. They all point to Christ as the one who fulfills it. That fulfillment is ongoing, as the Gospel reaches more men and women in history. Postmillennialists are not trying to bring in the kingdom; they are preaching the Gospel, and as it conquers men and women, the promise of Psalm 2 becomes more and more true. It seems like Owen is hung up on the paradigm that “we lose down here,” and the Kingdom will only be fulfilled when Christ comes to rescue us at the end, when He returns.

@Naomi_OB

4 ай бұрын

Agreed! He continues to portray a willful ignorance to what a majority of post-mil believe -- that it's a ground up fulfillment -- from families, to the church, to govt and nations. As more accept Christ countries WILL be Christian. And he knows this and continues to play dumb about how it could work. Great job, Josh. God bless your ability to have these discussions. I dont think Owen did himself any favors with this.

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

​@@Naomi_OBWillful ignorance is the perfect way to describe this weasel

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

​@@Naomi_OB willful ignorance is the perfect way to describe it!

@NickNunez

4 ай бұрын

@@Naomi_OB Well said. Willful ignorance seems like a disqualifying candidate to speak on these issues. TBH, it's sad to listen to him beat around the bush. I used to think it was just ignorance, but this video has solidified the "willful" portion of his ignorance. He knows, doubles down on it, and refuses to provide an honest discussion rather than straw man jargon.

@blackpatriot3

4 ай бұрын

As an Amil, he is way way off on Psalm 2

I appreciate the engagement from Dr. Howard and Strachan. It seems like Owen uses a bit of a weird standard where he has to see it in narrative form in the NT in order for it to be a legit application of the Word of God.

@eschatology_matters

5 ай бұрын

Great take, ty!

@brucekyer5530

4 ай бұрын

Owen just seems confused. Speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Is he gay?

@hammerbarca6

4 ай бұрын

Upon reflection, I realized there’s a a big exception here for activities involving coffee

@santossingleterry2621

4 ай бұрын

You are speaking about a minister of the Gospel of Christ. If you call yourself a brother you should be ashamed of yourself. This is a baseless accusation and a violation of the 9th.​@@brucekyer5530

The difference between the art gallery and laws is that one is commanded and the other is not

Growing up with this SBC separation of life .. church life vs the rest of life..has always troubled me. It’s “all of Christ for ALL of life” Thank you Dr. Howard for having this conversation ( and your many other conversations) and you’re clarity!

At 30:32 Owen says “The Great Commission is advancing when you and I meet at Starbucks with Bob from accounting and Bob from accounting repents of his sin and trusts Jesus and now starts bringing his family to your church or mine. That’s the primary way the Great commission advances; that’s what the Great Commission is calling for. And then Bob gets baptized and then Bob is discipled in the church and starts learning all that Christ has commanded him. That’s the Great Commission.” With the surrounding context from that quote, it truly sounds like the point Owen is attempting to make is to say that the Great Commission doesn’t extend past learning all that Christ has commanded. Teaching and learning are within the scope of the Great Commission, but once you actually start applying what you’ve been taught then you’ve stepped outside the bounds of the Great Commission. That is why he thinks politics is cool beans, far out and totally groovy, but he is passionately against saying the Great Commission includes any politically-applied knowledge from Starbucks discipleship sessions. Am I misunderstanding him or is this a fair depiction of Owen’s position?

@dougdozier8782

4 ай бұрын

No you nailed it. He says it's the "fruit" of the Great Commission but not the actual Great Commission. It's really faulty thinking.

@StephenWillcox

Ай бұрын

Spot on. And then he errors in conflating the Great Commission to the Gospel on a number of times in the discussion. Which further leads to confusion.

Since Christ inherited the nations are they not required to repent? Psalm 2: 8-9. Where does it state in the Bible that the New Covenant no longer is concerned with the salvation of nations?

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

Amen

Very peculiar for Owen to say “my fear is that if someone passed a law ending sex trafficking, they they would think they’re doing the great commission” So Owen, your fear, your dread, is that IF Christians became more involved, and started changing the world positively for Christ, that *GASP* they might in their pride neglect other aspects of the great commission? Maybe some Christians should have stopped William Wilberforce, because he was dangerously doing a little too much good for the sake of Christ.

@macrofuture

3 ай бұрын

The fruit of the great commission is related to the great commission

@cbwilson2398

10 күн бұрын

You are being ungracious. If you can't be gracious to fellow Christians, then what?

@Spurgeon_General

10 күн бұрын

@@cbwilson2398 If you think I’m being ungracious, then you’d really have an issue with the apostle Paul in how he sometimes speaks to fellow Christians. There’s nothing wrong with being firm and straightforward in criticism. Strachen himself is very caustic and rude, and his comments on these issues are unhelpful to the body of Christ, responding bluntly to his continual obfuscation is very much appropriate.

I don’t think I ever really got clarity from Owen on whether teaching a local magistrate all of Christ’s commands, including the ones for his particular station as a civil ruler, is part of the disciple making process/Matt 28:18-20. If the content isn’t about soteriology proper, it isn’t part of the scope of the great commission, just an implication? I guess as long as we’re not afraid to do it, the technicalities loose their impact, but if that technicality ends up neutralizing the teaching of Christ for the public realm from having an impact, that’s where the rub really comes in

I had trouble tracking what Owen was saying a bunch of the time. It really takes a high level of skill to keep track of all the word salad, and then come back with an intelligent, and patient rebuttal.

When Owen makes the argument for the "fruit of the Great Commission" this is what most who hold to theonomy also agree with (at least in my experience). Seems like maybe we're speaking past each other.

Good discussion. The heart of the divide is, like many other subjects, the relationship between the OT and NT.

@NickNunez

4 ай бұрын

Is that truly the heart of the divide? If you have some resources on how the continuity/discontinuity of OT to NT stands as the heart of the divide, I'd enjoy studying up on that a bit.

@dgoeb1509

4 ай бұрын

@@NickNunez I would say so, yes. Of course there are other subjects that shape ones conclusions on this matter, like hermeneutics. But fundamentally, the people in different camps of these issues (i.e. Postmill, Christian Nationalism, Theonomy) have arrived at different conclusions as a consequence of their understanding of the OT and NT, or Law and Gospel. Owen, for example, does not agree with the tripartite division of the Law into moral, civil, ceremonial; a division which is appealed to to explain the continued binding nature of some OT commands (10 commandments especially) on New Covenant Christians. Theonomists, on the other hand, are committed to the threefold division, and build a theology from it. There are many good resources on this subject. I think the most accessible, and which gives a good overview of all positions, is “Discontinuity to Continuity,” by Benjamin Merkle.

Owen is the product of atomistic individualism. Which leads to having a stark contrast between the OT and the NT thinking that they're so different. It's the same program.

love to see woke owen on! good representative of big eva. he (they) will always boldly take the agreed upon popular stance on issues so we can applaud his bravery while the american church slowly decays into more progressive ideologies. Im excited to see more "we lose down here" mentalities so I and all my brothers in Christ can have no hope except for the sweet release of death :). AD Robles destroys this guy on the Word of God and application and I recommend anyone listen to him over this deceived brother.

@hammerbarca6

4 ай бұрын

I love AD. What a man

Owen has said several times, "that's not the gospel, that's not the great commission." He's equating the two to be the same thing. When they are not.

If the magistrate is not a steward then why does God call them his deacon?

I'm 20 minutes in and I think one of the questions that should be asked is: what is the goal of the GC? What does Jesus aim at achieving when He commissions His disciples?

This is the epitome of why have a postmill eschatology viewpoint is so important. And highlights how wrong and dangerous owners strained teachings are

This has got to be the best discussion I've encountered on the CN challenge. Thanks to both for a great civil debate on an increasingly contemptuous subject.

No matter how many times he says " this isn't loser theology", it just is man... Orlando Strenuous embraces loser theology. "Just submit and suffer" he says. And he says that what Peter would want us to do. Submit and suffer

@mattyblakeman863

4 ай бұрын

You sound like a 5 year old bro.

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

@@mattyblakeman863 sorry not sorry

@matthewdyer2926

4 ай бұрын

@@mattyblakeman863 ...says the guy who used the word "bro". 13 isn't much better than 5.

This sounds like good news to me: "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.".

"Don't put your hope in nations", but people live in nations, and God told his to pursue righteousness, and to work quietly with our own hands, and to punish wickedness and praise what is good. I do hope my children can live in a nation which honors Christ, and I also hope they serve God with their whole heart. God can save both body and soul.

While I disagree with him, Owen is our brother… but would it be completely off limits to joke about binding the Strachan man with regard to deceiving the nations?

In minute 42:00 Mr Strenuous says that God has changed His ways. I thought He was the same yesterday today and forever!

oh man! Thank you Josh for not editing out the fireworks at about the 59:55 minute mark. That was supper cool.🤣

The error most Baptists make is placing to hard of a disconuity between the Old and the New Covenant. The Church began on the Sixth day of Creation, not Penticost. Only a few parts of the Old was put away as the Prophets fortold, mainly the sacrificial and ceremony.

@haroldwalma255

4 ай бұрын

The Apostles used the Greek words they did for a reason. Ekklesia was the Greek word Jewish scribes used to translate the Hebrew for assembly and congregation into the Greek language of Scripture. So the ekklesia was before Penticost. Also, in history, the ekklesia was the lowest political assembly in Greek culture. Also the assembly/congregation (ekklesia) was political, not apolitical, though more than just political..

great discusssion,. still struggle (hermeneutically) with PM and CN, but glad we can link arms together and think through this and [hopefully] sharpen one another for the mission/battle.

Our Lord will certainly judge *nations* who are specifically guilty of persecuting His bride.

His disconnect between old and new is troubling. Are we sure he isn't a dispensationalist?

@NickNunez

4 ай бұрын

lol. my thoughts exactly.

Owen’s hang up about baptizing Sweden, or discipling Sweden by taking it to a coffee shop is so dumb. I can’t believe that’s what’s hanging him up of all things, that he can’t see what people mean by that

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

I think he does see it, he's just trying to avoid the trap and continue to make his viewpoint legitimate. Glad to see so many who see through Mr Strangles deception

I think the rub might be the conflating of the Gospel and the Great Commission. The Gospel is the Good News of the person and work of Christ and it's accomplishment. The Great Commission includes preaching the Gospel but also "all that I (Jesus) have commanded." Which would include what Christians are supposed to do; which is not the gospel. When we stop that distinction, we head down liberalism.

excellent episode!

Healthy discussion. I hope we all keep talking and better nuisance our positions. It’s desperately needed.

Dr Howard your the man!! When I first saw this thumbnail I cringed. What Dr Josh does well is show how unqualified Owen is for the position he has. He contradicts himself without even knowing it, sad to say but Owen is the problem not the solution.

I believe Owen says he subscribes to the 1689. So he cannot be a full blown dispensationalist. But he’s so hyperfocused on “if it’s not in the New Testament, it doesn’t apply to us” that I wonder if he holds to New Covenant Theology.

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

Lol 😆 right! He can't possibly subscribe to the 1689! There's soooo much virtue signaling here!

Paul did preach in the public square.

@jamesdenard8370

4 ай бұрын

And what’s more, later in Acts Paul is making moves specifically to bring the Gospel before the Roman rulers!

I appreciate Owen and followed him before this whole discussion blew up over the last year or two, but my biggest objection out of everything he said was concerning his pushing out of Psalm 2 and Isaiah 65 into eternity rather than history. There simply is no exegetical reason for us to believe that those chapters aren’t fulfilled until the return of Christ; actually the opposite. Isaiah 65, when speaking of the new heavens and new earth, prophesies birth of children and death of people at significantly extended lifespans. Even though there is prophetic/poetic language in that passage, there’s no avoiding the fact that birth and death are explicitly mentioned, neither of which occur in eternity. So that forces us to come to the conclusion that Isaiah was prophesying about human history prior to Christ’s advent. And concerning Psalm 2, it’s this simple: there are no nations in eternity. The multitude of God’s elect will be with Him, but nations as governmental entities will not be in the eternal state. So the very mentioning in Psalm 2 right off the bat of nations pretty directly implies that it’s speaking of what will occur while nation-states exist; namely in this age.

The burden of proof is on Owen. He needs to prove the discontinuity of OC to NC. We ought to believe in complete continuity except where the NT explicitly says that something from OT goes away. The apostles assumed complete continuity of Gods Law.

So the law has no teaching capacity in disciple making? The state has nothing to do with that?! Come on, Owen! I look forward to a day when the church goes out to evangelize, employing the law of God in presenting the gospel, and it’s taken seriously instead of mocked, because God’s law will actually have temporal consequences, through God’s delegated authority in the civil magistrate, in line with the eternal Kingdom. “On earth as it is in heaven…”

I feel like Strachan tried to “son” him at least twice in the first few minutes: 1) by referencing that he was his PhD supervisor and 2) by saying he has more time for the interview (as if he is in control of the show) Neither is above the other here. The ground is level. These allusions hurt Strachan’s message imo

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

Owned is a snake 🐍

A government that bears the sword righteously (that is punishing evildoers according to the biblical standard of evil, and upholding those who do good) will allow for the church to build an infrastructure of discipleship that can powerfully effect the ability of the church to send more qualified missionaries to other nations in obedience to the great commission.

Influence on civil law is not the focus of the great commision but a potential spillover. The reason our influence on temperal laws has been weak is because the church has exchanged teaching for entertainment.

Strachan is basically saying 'Discipleship is taking people out for coffee and going through books of the Bible, so anything that doesn't fit that category isn't real discipleship'. It seems like he has more of an issue with what discipleship really entails. The civil magistrate cannot disciple nations by enacting just laws, in other words. Your art cannot disciple people about who Christ is, etc.

@thediamondcreeper7566

4 ай бұрын

I think you just Strawmanned Strachan's argument on discpleship.

@theoppositionpodcast

4 ай бұрын

He actually said it 3 or 4 times, listen for yourself@@thediamondcreeper7566

I think Owen was being a fairly consistent Baptist. I attend a Baptist church I love Baptists but there is a one sided view of scripture there that says the New Testament is the better revelation of God and the old is mostly irrelevant. I think if he truly practically saw the Bible as a whole or total revelation of God then he would be at least be more understanding of the opposite position.

Bad eschatology affects our theology and the way we live, and these are both premil n amil both pessemistic and escapist. I was just like Owen before the Lord opened my eyes to the biblically sound Postmil optimisim that Psa 110 will be fulfilled in church age n all his enemies will be put under his feet thru his bride the church. So we do all we can in all spheres of life to advance his agenda of total n complete victory in all the earth.

Would we not start with the promise and mandate of the blessing of Abraham to be a blessing to the world as a greater purpose as opposed to the task of the great commission in redemption of man and every nation/ethnos?

I have yet to meet or talk to any CN who is looking to place his hope somewhere other than in Christ.

Such an epic song

Of course, it still applies to us. But the emphasis is all nations , not just israel.

Should we go to city council and state assembly and speak against abortion because God is our authority on the preservation of life?

@twood6992

4 ай бұрын

Absolutely yes, when the opportunity is there.

Great discussion. Does Owen hold to a New Covenant Theology view of the Law? I think he said he didn't hold to the Tripartite division of the Law. Also his viewpoint seems to be jumping in and out of Radical Two Kingdom Theology.

Appreciate Josh allowing Owen to present his views on this channel. It seems to me that judgment in the OT is often expressed as a physical type of eternal judgement that is revealed in the NT. The most "Christianized of Nations" have experienced some of the most severe tribulation as we have seen in the 1st Century Roman Empire. I wouldn't call that judgment from a NT sense.

I really want to listen to this to the end, but this guy grates on my nerves. But I will try to keep going...

If his town turned in majority to Christ, he would be agaisnt his town proclaiming it is a "Christian city".... That's pretty telling.

“Political involvement is not the great commission.” Agree brother. But political involvement (in any capacity) in a constitutional republic IS being a good disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s the result of the great commission actually being effective. The church is to make disciples and these disciples will go and do good works, some whom will serve as civil magistrates or police officers and the like. They do these things under the headship of Christ submitted to their pastors and the care and discipline of their local congregation.

Minute 48, Strachan had absolutely no rebuttal, except an appeal to authority fallacy.

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭YLT98‬‬ having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them - to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

At the 42:00 mark, he literally says that God changed on how He deals with nations.

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

Within 300 years, the whole Nation of Rome was discipled and baptized

I wish he would have answered the question about noun vs adjective.

Owen is just not Reformed confessional, that’s the issue.

Cannot bring myself to watch this one. Can't take Owen seriously.

@PhilippiansThree7to9

4 ай бұрын

I tried to listen to him on his channel once and I couldn't even get through a 28 minute video. Something really off with him. He is really annoying and I find him to be a bit arrogant.

I would be interested to hear answers on this question. If, hypothetically, A whole nation like Egypt had repented during the days of the old covenant economy, would their national repentance have required them to implement the mosaic law throughout their nation?

@oracleoftroy

4 ай бұрын

I would say yes based on Deut 4. The one open question I would have is the ceremonial law, but I think there are clearly aspects that would have to be followed and some I'm not sure if they applied given they were directions for the tribe of Levi. Would Levites need to move to Egypt to perform priestly duties? Regardless, it seems that God's law is always the standard the prophets used to condemn the nations, and yet we don't get a great look into what exactly the few nations that did repent ended up doing at that time.

@dgoeb1509

4 ай бұрын

@@oracleoftroy interesting. A lot to unpack there. Where in the prophets would you say the law is being used to condemn the nations?

@oracleoftroy

4 ай бұрын

@@dgoeb1509 For one example, compare the charge in Joel 3: 4ff with the prohibition on man stealing in the law (e.g. Ex 21: 16). If you have a solid background in the law, you'll see a lot of parallel regarding what they are condemned being explicitly illegal in biblical law. I just picked a random prophet and started scanning without anything particular in mind.

@dgoeb1509

4 ай бұрын

@@oracleoftroy To push back a little: do you think that text is condemning them for violating the Exodus 21 case law, or as a recompense for specifically targeting God’s covenant people? Exodus 21:16 is a law that would appear to apply in *any* case for the Israelite, so that it wouldn’t matter if an Israelite stole an Egyptian, a Moabite, or even another Israelite. All man-stealing is punishable by death. Presumably then Tyre or any other nation could have been punished *as a nation* for stealing *anyone*, which was a practice that was widespread for a long time, and yet they’re only coming under God’s judgment when their actions are directed toward Israel, in much the same way Egypt is judged for their enslaving Israel, and Assyria was for their assaults on Israel/Judah. So is it that they’re being judged specifically for a violation of the Mosaic covenant? Or for their sin against God’s covenant people?

@oracleoftroy

4 ай бұрын

@@dgoeb1509 I wouldn't treat it as an either/or, I think both are clearly in view. God doesn't just leave it at a vague charge that he didn't like what they did to his people, he lists specific charges that one can read in his law and see that indeed it is something he commands against. And by the time God plans to bring destruction to a city or nation, it isn't just for one thing, but a history of multiple violations. And indeed, man stealing was a major sin in the world, and part of why Deut 4 presents the law of God as obviously just and something the world would look on and recognize it as such.

I think it would be helpful for many to have Owen on again in the future to have a conversation with a Postmillennialist. He doesn’t sound like someone that has really listened to what we are saying, which is disappointing since he was on that G3 panel with James White. Most of Owen’s issues here are things White addressed publicly back then.

@eschatology_matters

4 ай бұрын

Dr Howard is a Postmillennialist. But this interview was for clarification on Owen's views, not debate.

@jamesdenard8370

4 ай бұрын

@@eschatology_matters Oh really? For some reason I thought I’d heard him say he was an optimistic amillennial on a previous episode.

@jamesdenard8370

4 ай бұрын

@@eschatology_matters Also, been listening to the podcast for almost a year and love the content you guys are putting out. Appreciate the work you’re doing!

@eschatology_matters

4 ай бұрын

@@jamesdenard8370 thank you, very encouraging!

Great conversation! The one thing I kept noticing Owen doing was conflating the gospel with the great commission. He saw any application of Christian ethics to a man’s life (in art, business, or politics) as “fruit of the great commission” and not “the great commission itself.” He seems to be confusing terms where I can definitely see Christian businesses as “not the gospel” but it is certainly the fulfillment of applying all that Jesus taught us. Owen struggles with a “truncated” great commission. Also, for a great example of your Greek exegetical comment about different genders but same referents, look at the use of masculine pronouns with “nations” in Revelation 19:15 and 20:8. I’m sure they don’t apply the same principle in these verses.

God isn't doing what he has done for all of history. - Owen.

So Owen, you are for autonomy? You only have two choices; theonomy or autonomy, GOD's Law or Man's law, no tertium quid.

Did Owen conflate "the great commission" with "the gospel"? That doesn't seem technically correct :P

Jesus said "make disciples OF THE NATIONS"! It's easy to say make disciples. Of the nations is the emphasis.

@xinyorixahumba6307

4 ай бұрын

Nations are not fixed entities that never change

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

​you are not a fixed entity that never changes.

Also Peter and the other apostles did and also rebutted the Sanhedrin.

Very thankful for this engagement. As an Amillist, I find myself saying yes and amen to much of what Owen is saying. For Josh and many Postmillists, the question about whether nations can be judged seems to carry a lot of freight. But that's not the issue. Yes, nations can become so wicked that God feels compelled to send his temporal wrath. But each display of judgement is always and merely a precursor to the Day of Judgement which will come upon the earth, when the world has become so wicked that it cannot stand and the last of the elect has been born again.

If like Paul we say our rights give us the right to actually elect leaders from the body of Christ to better the conditions for spreading the gospel and creat a society that by Gods common grace our laws line up with biblical law means theonomy is bad that’s nutso. Why in the world would we deny that?? Why would we not hold that standard. We aren’t now and aiming for the right way is bad??? Don’t get it. I don’t think Christian’s taking over the government can be any worse than what we have. Upside down world is what we are in when even Christian’s are like we won’t evangelize ever and those who do are doing it wrong…. Upside down world

So, it's not necessary to train christian in your church to be magistrates? Only to be body-less evangelists?

YIKES!!

Israel was called to disciple the nations, as is the church. No one should be advocating baptizing an entire nation. Believers and their children are to be baptized. Psalms 2 is quoted intentionally in Acts & that should be enough for Owen. Churches and nations are still judged in the NT world. We can see that very clearly in the world today. Are we in America not under current judgment? People are postmill because it's the most biblically consistent position with a consistent hermeneutic. Historicist Postmill is the best position.

Israel was baptized in the Red Sea. They were baptized into a Theocracy. We are to baptize the nations and turn them into Christian Theocracies.

I've had ivory tower beta pastors oppose interposition for the preborn as well as evangelism, as have many of my friends. Those kinds of academics are a blight on Christianity. We need men of courage, like Dusty Deevers, who I hope you interview next. He won't theologize his way out of obedience. He'll embrace God's Word and act accordingly. Alpha males exist bro. Thanks for this interview, I found it on AD Robles' channel.

I really hope you called on Strachan to repent of public slander in front of the entire world. He should be excommunicated if he will not publicly repent.

@PureEntertainmentAZ

4 ай бұрын

What are you referencing? Genuinely curious. I didn’t catch what this was about.

@brettmagnuson8318

4 ай бұрын

@@PureEntertainmentAZI believe his treatment of Stephen wolf if I had to guess.

@wenmoonson

4 ай бұрын

Watch video before wringing hands next time.

Seems to me that Owen keeps focusing on the first clause to make disciples, but not engaging. The second clause teaching them to obey everything I have commanded we make disciples so that they learn to obey everything crisis commanded, right? He wants a holy people whose laws written on their hearts? Right? so what do you do with a civil magistrate once he has been made of disciple? Don’t we now teach him to exercise authority in a God, honoring lawful way? And when he learns how to obey the Lord in his vocation as a state official is that not part of the great commission? Sure making good laws doesn’t make you a follower of Christ. But followers of Christ should learn to make good laws. That is a part of their discipleship, so he is focusing on the former and ignoring the latter but it’s the latter that has been ignored for most of the last two generations, the latter that all the dispute is over, so it doesn’t seem to me like he’s addressing the core issue. Am I missing something?

In context, when Jesus told the disciples to go and make disciples of all the nations, wasn't He just prophetically (pre-Pentecost) pushing the disciples away from an Israel centered mentality toward a gospel that was going to include the Gentiles (the nations)?

Owen spent more time saying what he's NOT saying than what he's saying.

Israel AD70?

1:00:00 Zoom wanted to get baptized :)

I really like owen as a christian anthropologist, but he is exposing himself as a inner pietist, seculionist, fearful, two kingdom theology advocate, that promotes a spiritually dead eccelsiology....bottom line is it becomes dangerous for tge great commission.

So owned strenuous is R2K and premill AND a pietistic. Big surprise. Not surprised at all. Also, I'd like to see a debate about this topic with strenuous with someone able to debate him. But Mr Strenuous would never. The only reason he agreed to this "interview" was because he knew it wasn't going to be a debate and that Josh would be extremely charitable and gracious with Strenuous. This wasn't a helpful conversation

Mr Stained should resign from being a pastor and become a lawyer

I smell fear.

Owen is so worried about being technically "correct", that he can't actually speak the way the Bible does about baptism.

Outstanding! Owen addressed every point with a consistent theology. I really appreciate your publication of this video rather than the usual partisan tribalism so often seen elsewhere. Because eschatology does matter every position should be allowed peer review. Hebrews 11 would have been a nice compliment to the discussion. The point is made that we, like the patriarchs, are foreigners and strangers on the earth. Had we or the patriarchs subdued the existing nations we would have had a country to call our own, nullifying the anticipation of a better country - a heavenly one. As it was, Israel's infidelity prevented their subjugation of the nations and the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:23. The nation state administered by heaven, the theocracy does not exist on earth and never shall again till kingdom come. Or better to say, till the King comes.

Owen Strachan is insufferable. The arrogance of these big eva celebrities is disgusting.

John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world..."

@hardboard82

4 ай бұрын

Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭28‬ ”But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.“ Do you think Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God?

@kevinrein519

4 ай бұрын

It’s not of the world’s systems. The Kingdom doesn’t use worldly means to advance. He is not saying “my kingdom is not in this world”

Owen is really inconsistent

It makes no sense to have someone on this channel to trash talk everything this channel is for. To have owned strenuous give his advice on these particular plethora of topics isn't helpful at all

@eschatology_matters

4 ай бұрын

Allowing Owen to more thoroughly detail his position should be helpful to everyone who cares about such things. We don't know of any other platforms where he has specifically addressed some of these topics at length, and thought it would be helpful to do so. We appreciate your zeal and support. Who would you like to see us interview next?

@micahlantz905

4 ай бұрын

@@eschatology_matters Dusty Deavers!

@AKhardcore1

4 ай бұрын

Yes! Dusty Deevers! I think he had a Twitter back-and-forth with Owen 😅. These guys who push back on those who oppose evil are just betas in my view. Can't take these academic retreatists seriously.

God didn't bless Germany. It didn't even really exist as a unitary state until Bismarck. That region was ravaged by warfare during the wars of religion. That era largely can to an end with the PoW (Westphalia) in 1648.

The nation of Israel didn’t have the Holy Spirit. That’s why they “crashed and burned”