Daily reminder OWL Pros tested OW2 in its early inception and said 5v5 was terrible.

@81Predalien

4 күн бұрын

Not to mention they tested 5v5, 4v4 and I think even 7v7 before OW1 and they said 6v6 was the most balanced they could get it and the others didn't work.

@WIZZATHEWIZZA

4 күн бұрын

​@@81Predalienwell not to be contrarian but the game was balanced for 6v6 at the time, of course 6v6 is going to feel the most balanced yk?

@SolaireOAstora

4 күн бұрын

@@WIZZATHEWIZZA theyve been working on balancing for 5v5 for 11 seasons at what point do we say that the 11th iteration of roadhog/orisa/mauga meta where you are constantly walking back to spawn to counter swap the enemy tank is enough, its fucking boring as fuck many tanks arent even viable because they were built with off tank in mind/ a more supportive tank playstyle. its forced these characters to be played extremely selfishly and its fucking boring.

@Star_Rattler

4 күн бұрын

iirc the people who tested ow2's 5v5 not only said it wasn't good, but they also BEGGED them not to implement 5v5

@P-39_Airacobra

4 күн бұрын

Not to mention the early (better) devs of Overwatch tested 5v5 and thought it didn't fit their vision of the game

Once again: Blizzard tried out 5v5 when developing Overwatch originally, and decided it didn't work as well as 6v6. 5v5 has been KNOWN as a failure since before the game even came out, but Blizzard still tried it and pushed it anyway.

@BigChungus-gz9vw

4 күн бұрын

Well they needed a sequel

@tamooz6649

4 күн бұрын

​@@BigChungus-gz9vw the sequel could have been that PVE thing they promised for years. The reson for the content drought from 2019-2022, oh wait nvm 😂

@ZarelidT

4 күн бұрын

It’s because of que times. You as a community failed to play multiple roles and wanted to one trick. You have failed the game it’s all the communities fault!

@duvetboa

4 күн бұрын

​@@ZarelidT Queue times became shit because the game was left unsupported for several years. Most players tuned out once it became obvious that OW1 was abandoned in favor of whatever OW2 was going to be and wanted to wait until the game was relevant again.

@ZarelidT

4 күн бұрын

@@duvetboa if you don’t think it would happen again that’s where you become less believable that you know what you’re talking about. I’m rooting for the game I like 6v6 more. I was that tank in ow1 because it was a demanded role. I wouldn’t mind doing it again but I know the OW community is garbage and they get what they deserve… I have a hard time believing if anyone is genuine in this game anymore just fyi. I believe if it went to 6v6 we’d have maybe ONE good season then it would be the exact same as OW1. Remember they literally took out CP2 because players could NEVER figure out how to coordinate properly leading to many awful games. The community that couldn’t figure out how to play as a team is expected to know what they want from the game? I wouldn’t trust any of the OW community honestly

The irony is that double shield actually took more skill and team coordination than most OW2 metas.

@bambampewpew32

4 күн бұрын

TRUE

@SwingTheChoppa

4 күн бұрын

my most controversial OW opinion is that i actually liked the double shield meta a lot, honestly some of the most fun ive had on OW. Something about it was just really fun to me and i loved how strategic it felt.

@olegdusov4273

4 күн бұрын

And double shield wasnt used at every level of play all the time. Metal ranks whatever they wanted. I was diamond and I had a lot of games without cancer metas in OW1. Ow2 teached even the most casual players to counterpick enemy' tank and to blame thiers. And it killed QP with punishments, every is a sweatlord now.

@danny833

4 күн бұрын

@@olegdusov4273 I get people crying to me because I "counterswapped" in QP, but I suck too bad to know how to do this lol. Not my fault the game is trash...

@he.5865

4 күн бұрын

That's not how skill works. There will always be a top x%. You get to choose what you want the top x% to be. Do you want the top 0.1% to look like double shield cringe or fast paced fun looking gameplay?

And blizzard just made a statement saying that “tanks aren’t tanks enough”

@buky8117

4 күн бұрын

Imagine if they played the game that are balancing

@hexmaniac

4 күн бұрын

at this point, I'm not even sure if it's a conspiracy to say that blizzard has been actively trying to kill it's own game. You can't have dozens of asinine decisions one after another like this without either being immensely dense or actively malicious.

@cesar6447

4 күн бұрын

They need the dead by daylight treatment where the creator was bullied by players abusing the most broken item in his game so much that the next patch it got nerfed

@icyatlasartworks

4 күн бұрын

The team developing this game should be locked in a room and forced to play 25 matches of public quick play on the tank role every single day so they can understand what the problem is. Kind of like what the other person said about Dead By Daylight.

@thegreatslayer7685

3 күн бұрын

​@@icyatlasartworksskill issue lol

Been playing Overwatch since day 1, and I believe changing 6v6 to 5v5 was probably the worst change ever made in this game

@Turtlpwr

3 сағат бұрын

Not probably, it just was

Tanks need to be more tanky - Blizzard 2024. Meanwhile, a speed boosted Mauga running arnd the map presses one button. And his entire team becomes unkillable 😂

@Dish.Washer

7 күн бұрын

Mauga is shit

@deus2243

5 күн бұрын

@@Dish.Washer Mauga is the most played tank in champ high gm lobbies

@localmilfchaser6938

5 күн бұрын

@@Dish.Washerhe’s the most broken hero in the game

@activedanger

4 күн бұрын

@@deus2243 he is just a shit mauga lmao

@Dish.Washer

4 күн бұрын

@@deus2243 oh ok I'm just parroting mr lhcloudy i don't actually know if he is or isn't :)

I remember when ow2 was coming out. Not only is 5v5 completely ass. But we waited 2-3 years for a single update in ow1 just to get railed with an awful meta for the rest of the game. Pve was promised and cancelled. 5v5 was a failure and the continued for 2 years to fix it… it’s still not working. At least in 6v6 the game was enjoyable. Yes it wasn’t perfect. But I would much rather shoot 2 shields all day long then play a game where I can’t play a character because a silver player can compete with a GM player simply cuz of a hero pick.

@eagerinspirit

5 күн бұрын

And at least double shield was fixable. The issues with 5v5 are almost always an inate problem with the format.

@axelt6312

4 күн бұрын

"silver player can compete with a GM player simply cuz of a hero pick" no he can't he get aim dif

@emma6648

4 күн бұрын

@@axelt6312a silver tank could prob beat a master tank if they counter swap them, that’s how bad the balance is

@axelt6312

4 күн бұрын

@@emma6648 in silver i managed to one vs one tank even mauga with Bad aim as Brigitte because they struggle in close fight, si i highly doubt your claim

@Ibelieveincharmeleonsupremacy

4 күн бұрын

​@@axelt6312 Genuine question. Your point?

They can't spend 10+ years on a 6v6 game and then flush everything down the toilet and make it 5v5. We will just have to sit through every attempt at a solution until they finally realise 5v5 is flawed format.

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

With MASSIVE release of hero shooter this year and 2025 Overwatch Dev finally would get humbled

7:10 is quite literally the opposite of what OW stands for. "Never accept the world as it appears to be, dare to see it for what it could be." -Dr. Harold Winston

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

Winston also said overwatch has returned and yet PVE is cancelled Winston kinda a hypocrite sometimes

@owenvanvenrooy

3 күн бұрын

Also the dev that said this has it backwards. 5v5 isnt due the lack of tanks, the lack of tanks is due to 5v5

Tank in 6v6 had an identity. The supportive yet high damaging target which the enemy couldn't ignore due to their ability to peel for higher value targets. In 5v5 the only goal for tank is to sit and soak damage and hope they don't die. Balancing this is a nightmare that never ends. There are only 2 ways they can somehow fix this: 1. Make it 6v6(has it's own problems, but manageable) 2. Make it so every tank has no weakness whatsoever and make the skill floor low and skill ceiling slightly higher. Overwatch 2 tries to take the second path. And it ruins the identity of the tanks.

@Variouswigg

4 күн бұрын

If ow goes back to 6v6 how can blizzard fix the queue times

@isaacsimpson8098

4 күн бұрын

​​@@Variouswigg queue times aren't great now anyway. If we went to 6v6 I guarantee a lot of old players and current players might wanna play tank. Personally I only play support currently. If we went back to 6v6 I might actually feel like I can play wrecking Ball again.

@Zartress

3 күн бұрын

@@Variouswigg Unfortunately, Queue times are the main reason why they don't go back to 6v6. This would be a major issue for dps players spesifically, but if the game stays free then a lot more people will have access to the game and queue times might be around the same. If only 1-2 minutes longer

I used to defend 5v5 but after a year and change, nah we need 6v6 back. 5v5 only exists for Matchmaking purposes

@Variouswigg

4 күн бұрын

I agree its universally agreed upon that 6v6 is better but a game could never survive if the queue time is 30+ minutes

@calus_bath_water

4 күн бұрын

​@@Variouswiggthe game was only like that because blizz abandoned ow1 for like 2 years

@comfysage

4 күн бұрын

@@Variouswigg queue times will also get awful when tank players start leaving the game

@arbre_mystique

3 күн бұрын

@@calus_bath_water3 🤭

@mrartezi2667

2 күн бұрын

​@@Variouswiggthey just have to make more cute tanks like dva. Noone wants to play as ball or hog or even winton. Make the role appealing with new characters

Imagine being a Doom you had to play 4D chess to get some viability out of your character and you managed to win the first team fight against a Dva and now the unkillabe horse and her band of merry CCers come marching along to destroy your chance of having a good time

@YoGibran

2 күн бұрын

“Her band of merry CCers” Lmfaoooo

@hakzource8660

2 күн бұрын

Honestly one of the reasons why I flex to JQ. THEY UNIRONICALLY NERFED ORISA, THOUGHT SHE WAS DOING TERRIBLE (she wasn’t) AND COMPENSATION BUFFED HER COOLDOWNS? CRAZY

I am addicted to watching people bash 5v5. Might be crazy but they could just release a playlist with 6v6 that has the nerfed tanks from mystery and ffa and they would have the data they need. They would instantly know what tanks would need tweaks and how popular 6v6 would be compared to 5v5. We could be in the loud minority here.

If support was the odd man role, every support would be made into Kiriko and Baptiste.

@GummyDinosaursify

4 күн бұрын

NO MORE DPS-HEAVY SUPPORTS PLEASE.

@fettbub92

4 күн бұрын

@@GummyDinosaursify I agree. I'm making a point.

@f3bq163

17 сағат бұрын

Meanwhile Illari being the most broken support oat

I swear everyone who played ow1 wants 6vs6 back and everyone who joined in overwatch 2 doesn't know how good 6vs6 was.

@carvode7428

4 күн бұрын

Couldnt really play any comp overwatch 1 with the 6v6 q times even if I wanted to

@connorbanepoop

3 күн бұрын

That’s cause you’re in an echo chamber. I played 6v6. I dont miss it, was it better? Yeah. Did it destroy the game and make it virtually impossible for anyone to get back into the game? Yeah. I’d rather overwatch actually exist than have a 12% better experience with 6v6(it’s barely better and you guys are blinded by nostalgia)

@revolution_ow379

2 күн бұрын

@@carvode7428cap

@Kitt-Sage

2 күн бұрын

I only played it a few times in 2018 and greatly regret not playing it more. Didn't even know what I was taking for granted till I played ow2

@Lily-zk1ic

18 сағат бұрын

@@carvode7428what year did you play? i don’t remember super bad queue times in ow1 but they were def longer

I'd like to point out that Jeff Kaplan himself said 6v6 was the sweet spot for Overwatch and that 5v5 put too much pressure on players. That it would breed toxicity as if you were having an off day or just waned to play something different, your team would hate you because you were TOO important. 6v6 allowed a player who was maybe underperforming or new to be covered by the other players on the team and not have the '[x] player sucks gg go next" effect. As soon as Jeff Kaplan left, all of this got thrown out the window. Whether it was a corporate mandate or Aaron Keller not understanding the game he was walking into (I don't know how he wouldn't, he's not exactly new to the team), they obviously didn't give a damn about what they tested before. Jeff Kaplan knew that 5v5 would not work. The team tested it. AND variations of it including 7v7 and KNEW the issues that came from it. They went foreword with it anyway. Knowing from testing it years prior that it simply wouldn't work. Full Quote from Blizzard's Fourm from Jeff Kaplan: The other fear around a 3-2-1 [3 DPS, 2 Support, 1 Tank] comp is the importance it places on the Tank player. In our playtesting, this has manifested itself in two notable ways. 1) Some players feel a lot of pressure to choose the “correct” tank. If there is only one tank, the team has a very strong opinion about who that tank should be. Another fear around this issue is that metas will be even more limited as players tend to take the “path of least resistance” towards their hero choices. If Reinhardt is deemed meta, do we only see Rein from now on? Are we all mad at our tank player if they play the hamster? 2) Some tank players felt a tremendous anxiety about their performance in the match. They felt like being the lone tank put a lot of pressure on them and if they died, it was a really big deal. Some of our tank/support players who would occasionally play tank stopped playing tank during 3-2-1 and only gravitated toward support because they felt intimidated to be “the main tank” and have so much focus on their play.

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

Yeah but have you check most video that covers why OW esport failed? Most of them are saying "overwatch is too hard to watch and theres no spot for players who would shine like LOL stars such as faker" THIS. THIS IS THE SOLE REASON why overwatch resort to 5v5. So the game would be better to watch. Also they are lazy to do proper fix to double shield meta

@elodropper1469

3 күн бұрын

@@3takoyakisthey literally tried all overwatch 1 but 2 tanks was too oppressive. Literally 2 tanks shut out a whole role dps and further crippled have of the dps line up for a whole metta. They absolutely were correct in removing that extra tank no counter play , if you didn’t stick to the very basic rein zarya , Winston dva or worse goats metta you would lose

@3takoyakis

3 күн бұрын

@@elodropper1469 ow2 meta currently is mauga winston lol. People asked to tone down debuffs and they introduced mauga which cant be taken down unless you use debuff. Making other tank experience really bad

@elodropper1469

3 күн бұрын

@@3takoyakis and adding another tank to help mauga with passive regen would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. Because that make healers more heal bot type plays styles , half of the dps line up would be useless and tanks would dominate yet again.

@DarkTakanuva

Күн бұрын

I'm stealing this and using it against YourOverwatch; latest vid he claims Jeff wanted single tank

Remember Blizzard said they wanted to get rid of counter picking but made it worst?

@KiraMahMan

4 күн бұрын

then they later claimed that their philosophy changed and wanted counter picking to be a core mechanic in the game and now recently went back on that statement saying they want to try to make counter picking less effective. They can't decide what they want the game to be.

@ZeroOne130

4 күн бұрын

They also said that supports can attack as well but instead they were focused on healbotting. The sec supports go dmg mode the tank would just fall apart. It's even worst in S9.

I've never played 6v6 in ow1, I started early ow2. When supports were Op like season 4 through 7 I was sick and tired of the game as a tank player and the content my favorite creators (Flats, emongg) were posting was depressing to watch. So I decided to watch some of Flats' Ow1 content and it was night and day difference. Flats was full of passion and joy for grinding rank. Even when playing double sheild he and emongg were having a blast together which showed me 5v5 is literal trash when they can be playing a terrible meta and yet still have fun.

Something you didn't touch on when you were talking about Double Shield the most heinous examples of old Double Shield were Sigma + Orisa Because those characters could just, throw down their shield, and still operate fully But now Orisa has no shield. so she's out of that equation You have Rein: But if Rein is holding up his shield, he is unable to do anything else, he has to choose between shielding, and swinging / fire striking etc Ramattra also has a shield, but his shield only lasts for 4 seconds, and he cannot access the shield in his Nemesis form So yeah I don't think Double shield would be nearly as much of an issue as some make out to be

@lystal3425

5 күн бұрын

Double shield was mainly due to the Support AOE heals bap and brig Brig kept dive from playing and double shield prevented poke

@psgelcapitan2451

4 күн бұрын

@@lystal3425bingo 👍

@graciejefferson202

4 күн бұрын

@@lystal3425true, but it’s still crazy blizzard would rather rework the game than one or two characters

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

Ppl keep bringing up orisa sigma as if orisa hasnt been changed The orisa rework would end double shield in 6v6 But ofc they had to roll 5v5

@icyatlasartworks

4 күн бұрын

Hell, even if they didn't rework Orisa, Junker Queen's Rampage and her axe makes her a direct counter to Double Shield because both abilities ignore shields, Brig and Bap don't have a counter to her forced anti save for Field (and you can break that), and the only thing you would have to bait out is Sigma Rock. Reinhardt/JQ as a duo (or even JQ/Winton) would kill Double Shield.

The analogy with what happens with only 1 support is perfect

100% agreed. It's so rough man. Ive been actually playing ow2 quite a bit especially after season 9 changes. But as someone who has reached pot 500/gm on every roll in the first game more than one time, it just doesn't feel anywhere near as thought-provoking or like you have as much agency, especially in the tank role. Counter swapping being such a lucrative strategy in all roles really is one of the things that kills my vibe

@lytepk

7 күн бұрын

So based

Going back to that "5v5, solo support" example, and how supports would need to be giga-buffed since no one can cover their weaknesses. I feel like Kiriko would be even more meta without any changes (Despite already being meta in "5v5, solo tank" for an exhausting and boring 11 seasons straight), because Kiriko can do everything and doesn't have any real weaknesses. (Kind of like Sigma in OW1) In retrospect, she's being balanced as if there isn't another support, which is just weird. Another obvious example is Bap, who has noticeably less weaknesses than other support heroes (Even before OW2). Bap (alongside Brig) is the entire reason why OW1 became so bad with double shield. But, of course, even to this day, Blizzard would rather change literally everything about the game instead of nerf a support hero. Brig too strong? Role Queue Brig still too strong and Bap too? Move to 5v5 Too much healing? Season 9 role passive changes

Couldn't agree more with this video. I never even played the first game, I never experienced OW in its peak, but I DEMAND 6v6 come back. It's actually stupid to have just the one. The game plays worse and has suffered dearly for it. And I don't even really like OW, never have. I play OW2 because I had friends who play it, so I play it. Even if I don't like it, OW2 is free and it's something else to do with my friends. And I can see the glaring flaws of removing one of the tanks. The game is fundamentally built around a 6v6 environment, and Blizzard have ruined it. Good video.

@orenjiminto

5 күн бұрын

You know it's bad when people that have never played the first game start demanding 6v6

@patrickmcnulty2167

4 күн бұрын

If you have first hand experience you can't talk lmao. You're just regurgitating shit you've told

What most keep forgetting is there are two supports and two dps. Two. Again. Two. Even if a character or class is objectively "bad" having a second person being able to do some of the responsibilities your class can do, really really makes a huge difference. Sometimes it's not about eliminating or numbers. Sometimes it's about time and how much focus a team puts in one direction or goal. Or more importantly, lack there of.

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

There was a post that explaining why 5v5 games is so toxic yet more players equal fun (WOW and such) Because less pressure on each players. If someone fucked up, the others would cover. But nowadays gaming are moving towards 5V5 and shitsports. Why? Because its better to watch for marketability. When you watching sports, you either know the entire group or some star players. They push it to the extreme for esport. Which is not something overwatch should follow. But all advice towards successfull esports are always "you must make a system where an individual shine to the fullest to maximaze hype generated"

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

Watching someone pulled off team kill alone? SO HYPE But is it fun to play and grind to reach that kind of level? Ofc not Then again riot 500$ LOL faker bundle exist because of this flawed esport system (Riot have an ENTIRE department for toxicity and yet they cant figure this out)

@Void-Knull

3 күн бұрын

​@@3takoyakistoxicity is an unsolvable issue, the only way to reduce it is to take away the players communication tools, but that would only end in frustration and more creative types of toxicity

As for the double shield point, we aren’t advocating for Overwatch 1, we are advocating for 6v6. They need to understand that. (Also bring back the pretty UI stuff we had in ow1 like boarders lol)

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

With their claim of game would be frequently balanced, double shield shouldnt be a problem The 5v5 versus 6v6 issue is same thing as vainglory try to follow 5 lane formula instead of their usual 3 lane The results were devastating. The heroes are never being made for 5 lane and hype died after several months

@mochi.20

2 күн бұрын

@@3takoyakis never thought i'd see vainglory get mentioned in 2024. it was just item powercreep, namely the support items that were too impactful in a 5v5 setting. Unlike 3v3, the 5s meta favored using more than 1 Support/Tank heroes, and so the meta eventually consisted of 3 Supports, and 2 DPS, resulting in longer stretched out fights and who could better manage their support items. But ultimately, they just made too many poor business decisions and couldn't profit was the reason it died

@3takoyakis

2 күн бұрын

@@mochi.20 i missed vainglory every day poor business decision from beginning yeah. Also scammy practices draining people opal near 5v5 release they also decided to copy MLBB since it is deemed to be the successful business model. the worst thing is they even copy the goddamn UI

I was a GM tank player in OW1. I didn't touch OW2 for a bit because it was clearly an unfinished game, but I came back to play comp around S4 of OW2 and I quit again right after my first few games. My first experience was playing against a player who was terrible and would constantly counterswap after every fight to find value against me. Even before anyone in the community started talking about the issue of counterswapping, I noticed how bad it was, and it made me quit. It's just not fun playing against a worse player who gets more value because they constantly swap to counter your kit. I'm glad people finally caught onto the issue though. I came back last season for a few more games and the same issue still exists, so I stopped playing again, but I noticed something else too that bothered me. Another thing that makes this game suck outside of counterswapping is how hard it is to punish garbage players because tanks have overloaded kits since they need to function in this format. You used to be able to Sigma rock a vaping Roadhog to secure a kill, now he just gets back up and vapes again. Just no skill expression in this game. It's been balanced and re-designed for the dumbest, low-skill players on tank. Such a shame, but don't see it changing without everyone in the dev team being fired and replaced. It's been 2 years, there's just no excuse anymore.

Randomly had this recommended to me, usually don’t click on channels that I’ve never heard of that have low numbers but I’m so glad I watched this video. You got a new sub man this video was great

@lytepk

7 күн бұрын

Thank you brother more to come soon 💪

@michael4012

7 күн бұрын

@@lytepk I got notifications on man I’m waiting!

Ironically, I think the 6v6 double shield clip you used was still far better than the gameplay we have today. One thing I always see people fail to mention about the shield experience was the indirect buffs they received over time. Pharah's concussive blast used to deal massive damage against shields. Sym used to be able to pierce them with her orbs. Moira (likely unintended and overlooked in testing) was able to spray her healing through enemy barriers. There could be more that I'm missing, but there's 3 right off the top of my head.

i fully agree with everything you said, its truly sad about how 5v5 defenders will ignore the fact that 5v5 has gotten way more love then 6v6 ever did, if the devs we have today worked on 6v6 it would actually have gotten the problems with double shield fixed and it would feel infinitely better than 5v5

@axelt6312

4 күн бұрын

I only started the game with the kpop collab after years on the "to try" list and they clearly do, the game was left to the side for 2 years in 6 vs 6 and in 5 vs 5 we get free game, frequent update and content, like they just woke up someday and decided to not let the game die

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

@axelt6312 well no, they promised they would deliver better content to PVP since PVE is dead but The contents we get aka skins quality are getting worse. More recolor are being made. Less content in battlepass and less customization for mythic skin itself. We get less events than usual, we get 2 and even 1 per season instead of 3. We DONT get advertises for new event such as new maps and new mode clash. THERES NO RATE UP ON NEW MAP OR NEW MODE. WTF BLIZZARD. And they keep pushing hero mastery that no one wants. Its not hero mastery, its hero map memorizing to get high score. We want tutorials, not ninja warrior like mode Community make a hero mastery better than overwatch Dev.

@ghoulbuster1

3 күн бұрын

Most of the devs straight up left, these devs are completely new.

@arbre_mystique

3 күн бұрын

@@axelt6312yeah bud you’ve been here for like less than a year of course you don’t find any problems with 5v5 or the fact the game was left stale for three years because of a broken promise

@axelt6312

3 күн бұрын

@@arbre_mystique Still see that i fucking explode when i dare showing my head around a corner for a second when i play tank

I don't envy the balance job, because balancing Overwatch seems like a fucking nightmare, but 5v5 is the natural consequence of consistently choosing the worst option. 1. After two metas in OW1 full of people who didn't fully understand how the game works, people finally settle on Dive being the premiere team comp to win games given a large amount of mobility options for several characters. How mobile players can be often determines dominant strategies, with lack of mobility often being a death nail for many characters in other games. 2. Brigette is released and finally crystalizes a popular, but less effective strategy (Deathball/GOATS) into being optimal strategy for all competitive (as well as raising TTK at all ranks), effectively killing the DPS role for a year. Turns out the only thing stronger than mobility is High amounts of damage mitigation and AOE healing, allowing players to turtle up and rollover the relatively squishy DPS. 3. The institution of role-lock as the primary mode of play to forcibly kill GOATS. But this mode, the release of Sigma with no future balance changes, and the content result in another too long toxic meta that shut down a ton of options for players. These events scarred the Overwatch Team. In addition to needing something new to draw back players for its release since PVE (lol) was still a ways away at the time, they see 5v5 as the golden solution. It will help eliminate the toxic metas of OW1 and might allow DPS players to finally play the game again. Too bad they didn’t fully understand the implications and consequences of 5v5, which we're dealing with right now. The whole timeline shows the balance tean as too reactionary, not fully understanding the impact of balance and not knowing exactly what they want from their game. They only want to solve loud problems and make sure people are playing the new hero when it releases.

That Ana example was actually so good

@KBReal870

4 күн бұрын

Not really. I don't think tank and support are comparable when it comes to his example, as there isn't really anyone on the tank role who needs the kind of help and protection that Ana does. The devs did not just roll a 3-sided die to determine which role slot got removed, Tank makes the most sense out of the 3.

Good video, I used to have fun playing tank back in OW1 but in OW2 its just horribly boring. Can't play what I want I have to counter swap constantly it's just ridiculous.

@lytepk

7 күн бұрын

Marvel rivals save us 🙏🏻

@KingBLUCK

4 күн бұрын

​@@lytepkHere's hoping

I MEAN atp just replace 4v4 team death match into 5v5. And make role queue and open queue 6v6. Revert a lot of changes back to OW1 like health pools, take off role passives, etc etc. If they're worried about queue times, dont even fret because the game is f2p and now has wider audience and even newer players who would gladly try out 6v6.

To be fair, we can just as reasonably say role queue was another failed attempt of 6v6

@specimenlarry6068

4 күн бұрын

100%

Each role having two slots was perfect. - It really puts the pressure off you if you’re having a bad day - gives you a partner to directly play off of and match their rhythm - lets you fill different roles (on and off role basically) Now tanks are just stuck being either one-note or overtuned. It’s like if a musical duo is reduced to one guy, either he can only play half the song or grow an extra pair of arms to play both and neither is a pretty option.

5v5 was clearly a mistake but idk if blizzard thinks it's possible to get normal q times with 2 tanks per team

@michaelc7418

5 күн бұрын

To improve Tank Queues more in 2-2-2, they need to further reduce CC in the game and continue adding more new Tank and Support heroes so DPS Queue Times don't get too high like they were in OW1. CC was not addressed in OW1, and we literally got ZERO new Tanks or Supports, but ending up getting Echo for some reason, our 17th DPS hero. We had 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports in OW1, a crazy imbalanced hero roster.

6v6 is better I WASNT EVEN THERE AND I AGREE. i seen ow1 games then ow2 games they like night and day. 6v6 looks more fun. mins the double shields and goat meta

@lytepk

7 күн бұрын

Love that even people who didn’t play 6v6 see the truth

@he.5865

4 күн бұрын

owl didn't work because 6v6 is too busy visually.

@axion4204

4 күн бұрын

@@he.5865 remove duuble sheilds then it works

@KBReal870

4 күн бұрын

​@@lytepk This doesn't make any sense. They are obviously biased towards a game they haven't played because of getting videos like yours in their recommendations. You don't find people blindly following your ideas concerning at all?

@campythecow

4 күн бұрын

​@@KBReal870 Yeah this is the problem with a lot of people who demand 6v6 back from emotionally charged reasons. They will accept anyone circle-jerking the notion of 6v6 even those whose opinions are completely irrelevant.

What would it take for blizzard to be willing to swallow their pride and go back to 6v6? Atp all their dumb changes have accumulated and in order to return they would have to have the players best interest in mind😂

@orenjiminto

5 күн бұрын

I feel like at this point if the game collapses, q times go over an hour, people will just leave, Microsoft will abandon the game and shut down the servers. There's no reason for the "2" in the Overwatch 2 to exist aside from 5v5 format.

@sean48611

4 күн бұрын

They never will. That's the very unfortunate thing about Blizzard

@he.5865

4 күн бұрын

You think a for profit company cares about "pride"? You'd have to be rtded. THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU. THEY THINK 5v5 IS BETTER.

@3takoyakis

4 күн бұрын

Oh they will Have you check MARVEL RIVALS? They make their game 6v6 Months after that, Aaron said they discussing to put back 6v6 This accompanied by DOZENS of hero shooter game release in 2024 - 2025. Like, seriously for no reason, companies are reviving hero shooter genre Overwatch must do something drastic to keep their player base. They even have transformers collab in Marvel rivals launch soon

@icyatlasartworks

4 күн бұрын

​@@he.5865 "You think a for profit company cares about pride?" This is Blizzard we're talking about. Their pride coming back to bite them in the ass has happened repeatedly at this point. "Do you all not have phones?!" When Diablo Immoral was announced. "You don't want that. You think you do, but you don't." When asked about bringing back old WoW servers by a majority of their audience at Blizzcon (prior to making Classic WoW, and they only really did that because a noticeable chunk of the playerbase left after they took down the Homebrew vanilla expansion servers). Blizzard might be for-profit and as greedy as a company could be, but they're not desperate.

at first i didn't mind 5v5 as a support main, but over time it's felt like there's only so much one player can do on objectively the hardest role in the game, which is also ironic because it has the most impact on how a game can go. on tank you're expected to be in 2 places at once: on the frontline controlling or maintaining space, and peeling for the backline, but when there's 2 dps and 2 supports, you'd really think 2 and 2 would go together right? but no, it's almost always the tank's "fault" because they're expected to do everything but are also getting hit with all the cd's and cc that's in the game (begging blizzard to take that stuff out the game) and it leads to nobody besides the dps role having fun. the dps passive was, in my opinion, a good change but cranking it back up to 20% makes the support role feel unrewarding to play again due to healbotting 90% of the match and tanks are subjected to more hell because of the 25% less headshot damage PLUS the dps passive resetting every time they get hit. this game could be saved but it's more on the devs to discuss the one thing that people want back, and whatever they say can make or break the rest of it's life cycle

The funniest part about that "We gotta represent the playerbase as it is, not as we want it to be" is LITERALLY the opposite of what Winston's father said. THEY'RE LITERALLY SO DUMB THAT THEY CAN'T SEE THEY ARE THE EXACT PEOPLE THE PHRASE "Don't accept the world as it is, dare to see it for what it could be" NEEDS TO BE SAID TO, AND THEY INVENTED IT.

Just something to ponder, PVE was only introduced as a way to justify making OW2. This whole debate on 6v6 vs 5v5 is a distraction from the actual issue, Greed. OW2's actual purpose is to drive newer players into the game to drive up sales in the ingame shop. Its never been about PVE or satisfying already existing players, its always been about money. Why do you think they took away the option of buying loot boxes, not because of gambling allegations but because it's most cost effective to charge an arm and a leg for skins and cosmetics. When people have the choice of buying random loot boxes with a chance to get something they want over just buying it directly, they usually pick the latter. Just look at the outrageous prices for recolored skins and even epic skins $19 and $13-$18 depending on if it comes with a spray or emote. Heck, common skins will still set you back $10. These prices have always been ludicrous, but they keep at it because, like it or not, and I'm guilty of it myself, people will buy them. Don't even get me started on Mythic Shards, we went from paying at minimum $10 for the BP with the chance of getting the mythic skin at the lvl 60, now we can still do that, but for mythics we don't have we have to shell out $80 just to unlock the entire wardrobe. TLDR. OW2's 5v5 debate is a distraction from the rampant monetization the game is experiencing, and PVE was a lie to bring in new players.

Problem is Blizzard is way too simple-minded to think of real solutions to problems. Torb has no skill expression and is unviable past metal ranks? Homogenize him so his turrets do almost nothing and his power is counterintuitively is all in Torb himself rather than the turret (though his rework does have some good ideas they should've further built upon, like how his turret prioritizes enemies Torb shot.) GOATS? Role queue. Stuns, knockbacks, and slows everywhere? Just tune the numbers! That's enough to make it feel not as bad, right? RIGHT? And now double shield. Just remove a tank! Not only does that *technically* solve the double shield meta, it also homogenizes our game even further for the viewers and standardizes teamsizes to that of other games like League, Paladins, DOTA and whatnot! It MUST be the answer! God I feel bad for anyone still into OW.

Hey Lyte I have one more thing to add of why I hate 5V5. I have noticed in games tanks that is getting hard skill gapped, fully countered and wont swap, or straight up throwing the game is what feels the worst. I have had games when everyone else on my team is performing well and our tank is going 2-9 getting destroying wont swap or work with team feels unwinable. back in 6v6 if you had maybe that 1 tank that was getting gapped or trolling and not swapping you STILL had a chance if your 2nd tank was working with team games felt winnable and I have DEFITNETLY WON games with a throwing 2nd tank, but with 1 tank feels impossible. I remember 6v6 i was offtanking for this rein but he got Hard GAPPED, I asked him hey can i have a go and we swapped places and won the fight. I feel like alot of people have that Off tank mentality and dont want to be main tank. I use to love playing tank in 6v6 now i hate it and play it less. I played ALOT more tank in 6v6, now i never touch the role. I miss the synergy that you talked about having a DVA with the winston to help back it up so you can skill express but yeah now games in Diamond are mostly like hey who has the better tank/ not throwing tank. there shouldnt be games when enemy tank is 45-2 and my tank is 1-14 because they are stubburn and wont swap when fully countered, espcially on games that were sooo winnable because we were actually the better team, those are my 2cents that i never hear anyone actually talk about. Also they can totally make it impossible to have double shield by saying hey you can only pick 1 hard shield charcter or some crap but the main offender was orisa who doesnt even have one anymore.

as a 'casual' comp tank player i completely agree its as if i need to play certain heros just to not get blamed for losing

"Hey I'm gonna choose Rock please choose Paper, okay?" "Okay, I'm gonna choose Paper, please stay on Rock, okay?" "Alright I'm gonna choose Scissors then, stay on Paper, okay? This is what happens when devs allow the enemy team to see what you pick and actively play in the match. You should NOT be able to see what the enemy is picking. Major reason why class shooters require a complete lack of transparency is because THEY ARE CLASS SHOOTERS. CLASSES COUNTER OTHER CLASSES. You can't fucking tell the enemy team what they gotta pick to have an innate advantage, you're supposed to meet up in the center of the map, figure out what they play and then accordingly react on your next death to try and outsmart them. And hell, who knows, maybe the opposing enemy will then anticipate in advance that you're gonna be a counterpicking pussy and switch off their Hero to combat your Hero switch. And well, yeah, a tank centric game that has one team completely fall apart on their tank's death should without even a second thought feature one prominent tank in main tank role and one off-tank like in the usual MMO formula that most MMOs have. You should never have a single person in charge of whether the team falls apart or not, that's stupid and insane and most importantly enables situations where the tank role is just being toxic and picking hard counters to win.

I started playing this game when i was 15 im 22 btw, and i dont think a single person ever EVER thought that making the game 5v5 would fix anything, the fact that the dev team still did it after the pros said it was an awful idea and shouldnt be a thing, just shows how oblivious they are with this game

@EmmaxoOCE

4 күн бұрын

Especially with their track record. They make a bad hero, they can’t balance the game properly, then they change the game to disable a particular meta. Case in point: the creation of brig, inability to balance her, 2-2-2 added to remove goats. Same old playbook. It was never going to end well. It was always a sht idea

Also, what people say about que times in 6v6 is a myth. The hero distribution was horrendous. You cant have double the amount of dps heroes than both tank and support combined, and expect there not to be more dps players. Its not the entire reason or cause behind favored roles, but a significant one. The game was also pay walled and abandoned while many other popular f2p titles existed.

5v5 caused me to fully quit the game. Uninstalled 6 months ago, haven't touched it since. I am an OG player, played since November 2016. I won't even consider playing the game again unless the format goes back to 6v6.

This vid showed up in recommended, and holy fuck, you cooked. Thank you for having more brain cells than the entirety of Blizzard/Activision combined since they swapped to ow"2".

It’s affecting qp badly too. As a tank in qp i go in do somewhat decent and immediately everyone switches to counter it’s exhausting.

These videos need to keep coming, to keep reminding blizzard how many people are opposed to the current state of ow.

I'd like a 6v6. Just so it doesn't be awkward when that one extra friend joins and you kinda just sit there because they can't join.

me as an ex top 50 tank player should not be losing to masters players who dont understand the game fully just because they lock a tank that counters mine. they should not be able to overcome that skill gap, yet here we are. If i try to play the heroes i find the most fun to play and that are my best heroes, (mainly dva sig zarya) the moment other guy locks something that counters one of them i have no choice but to swap. Im fine with a soft counters but this is just infinite levels beyond that

I had not seen that yapping dog vid, and it was indeed infuriating. great points, great video. subbed

bout time you got involved

"5v5 was a mistake🗣️🔥🚭🙏" PEAK

It’s so exhausting playing a tank that you want to play and enjoy when 90% of the games is me vs 3-4 counters. Blizzard clearly understands that 5v5 was a bad idea, but needed a big change due to PVE not coming out.

I think they probably went through with 5v5 simply to make queues shorter since nearly no one wants to play tank, but it only made the pressure on the role even worse and even less people wanting to play tank lol

Gotta say man, I was a casual player of OW1 back in its day, and yet everything you've said here was obvious to me after about 3 games of OW2 at launch. Tanks suffer, and healers like me suffer right behind them since every fight has to be a nose-to-nose cluster otherwise the enemy tank steamrolls the rest of your team. Back in the day you could have a wide frontline on attack and defense, or you could see your team split into fireteams with one tank each. Tanks like Orisa and Sigma exist to better support and synergize with Winston DVA and old Doom. Now they decided that every character and role has to be able to solo and we get stuff like Kiriko, Queen, Mauga, and Sojourn. It's nice to know I haven't been going crazy.

I shudder to think what the Tank "talents" in the upcoming Hacked event are going to be that the devs think it can solve the issue better than 6v6

This is probably the best video that i’ve seen about why 5v5 sucks. Overwatch would definitely get laughed at for going back to 6v6, but I feel like it would be better for the game in the end.

the double shield clip unironically looked more exciting than ow2

The dueling Ramattra ults was pretty funny.

Apocalypse ain't over Why seek answers if we do not know the question 10:52 It was real nice of you to use your ult to heal the enemy Cass, he looked like he was getting low

This is probably the most articulate description of how I feel about this game I’ve had the pleasure of watching. Easiest like and subscribe of my life. Thank you.

I was pretty surprised to find how many people were against 5v5 tbh, when I first played ow2 I thought the game was in a more fun state than it had ever been previously, and I still feel that way. I've enjoyed 5v5 immensely more than 6v6 and 5v5 as well as the release of overwatch 2 finally pushed me to really try and climb the ranks rather than just play casually.

I started playing Overwatch when 2 came out as it was free and quickly became attached to the tank role. Overtime I tried almost all of the tanks besides mainly Orisa and Zarya as they just didn't seem as fun to play. Doomfist has been one of my favorites and I've almost gotten 200 hours on him. This could just be me being a horrible Doom player but it feels like I can never properly "dive" with him in competitive (diamond) as every time I do I'm just instantaneously slept, hacked, hooked, stunned, and dead in mere seconds. I absolutely love his abilities and what he can pull off but I struggle so much. It sucks because I don't want to resort to playing current meta tanks like Mauga in order to perform well on tank. This could very well just be me being a bad player, but it just seems like there isn't much counterplay to it.

The problem was never a tank issue it was a bliz balancing issue. 6v6 worked well, double shield was. Even a solvable problem with heros like Rammattra.

Great video. I also have some things that I don't see anyone talk about in these 5 v 5 bad, 6 v 6 better videos that I think would make for great video content to speak about. This is just absolute common sense to me that destroys the dps queue time argument. People say that nobody wants to queue tank the role back in OW1, and in OW2. That people like to play the DPS role and not the tank role. That is half the picture. Let me explain. Most importantly *Overwatch is a hero shooter, not a role shooter*. People play the heroes they are attracted to, not the role they are attracted to. This is proven with Doomfist. The players who loved Doomfist moved from DPS to the miserable solo tank role, just to keep playing the hero they love. I don't love Tank, DPS or support. I love Reinhardt, Junkrat/Mei/Torb, Ana/Zen/Lucio. Heroes, not roles. There were only 8 tanks in OW1, most of them were not interesting or fun to most players. But with additions like Doom and Queen, more DPS focused tanks, those heroes are more attractive than boring old Zarya or Hog. Even Ram is more fun to me than most of the OW1 tanks. And I know if they add a Hashimoto Samurai tank, genji players would likely be attracted to that hero. These tanks have to have high skill ceilings and high skill expression. Imagine said Hashimoto samurai tank has a parry ability that requires pretty good timing. Like deflect, but only lasts for a fraction of a second and has a 3-4 second cooldown. That would be hard to use, but very rewarding when mastered. Okay that wouldn't be completely feasible in OW's favour the shooter system, but you get my point? High skill requirement & expression = high reward/dopamine Hashimoto clan as an idea, instead of having wallrun like the shimada's they have tripple jump. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style, jumping on air. They should have a tank that would take on both Genji and Hanzo in an even battle in lore, and a support, who uses a bladed fan to take on Kiriko. Tank maybe has a short dash like genji, that can indeed still dash into the air, but it doesn't reset on cooldown. Melee sword swings. Right click is a timed block. Perhaps his attacks can actually combo differently depending on the timing in between swings. One combo can end in an uppercut that slightly lifts the enemy up, one ends with a stab that causes bleed etc. How awesomely fun does that sound? If all roles have equal hero numbers, and tank has more heroes like queen and doom, Rein, Winston, DVA (but more dps heavy with less health) not 1 dimensional heroes like Mauga, Hog & Orisa, then queue times will be very close. It would be something like 1 minute tank, 2-3 minute dps, 2-3 minute support. If they stop making DPS heroes until Tank and support catches up with interesting heroes, they can reimplement 6 v 6 with no queue time issue whatsoever.

Aaron Keller needs to speak to the Overwatch community that: Are they going to comeback to 6v6? A lot a lot OW1 players and people who enjoy that specific type of content are still playing this and contribute their frequent appearance numbers in the 100 million mark because they hope the game they love will eventually comeback

@SpaceCowBoyRay

2 күн бұрын

If they say they aren't bringing it back I'm uninstalling after 8 years since the original beta

I'm glad I watched all the way through, that outro was unhinged. I love it! Bring back 6v6

Loved the vid man, I was only ever a casual OW player who ranked plat and diamond a few seasons playing Lucio and Roadhog and I enjoyed 6v6 so much because even if you weren't necessarily great you could still effectively contribute to your team through whatever you were confident at and for me that was playing offtank/DPS Lucio but now with 1 less tank and all the issues you mentioned regarding that my individual play has a much greater impact on the team and if I'm suboptimal(which is a guarantee at tank) I no longer have any leeway to help win the game because I'm missing that extra teammate to back me up and it's just become a lot more shallow as a result with less dynamic team building and playstyles, I play OW2 occasionally but the moment it came out I knew it was an item shop overhaul cash grab that weakened the gameplay imo and I haven't stuck with it since.

@lytepk

7 күн бұрын

Thank you brother I appreciate the insight and thanks for the support 💪

what's funny is that double shield clip looked way more interesting and complex than any of the 5v5 clips

why seek answers when we do not know th- apocalypse aint ov- why seek answers when we do not- apocalypse aint ov-

5v5 is the format that we LITERALLY DID NOT ASK FOR. Like what? As one of the comments said, pros tested it, said it was terrible, and begged to not implement. Back in 6v6, sustain has been a big issue since we had aoe healers: Bap and Brig. When combining these two, aoe healings can reach the level of single target healing which is an unhealthy balance. Which is why we had comps like goats and double shield. And about counterpicking in the tank role. In OW2, it's necessary because tanks have so much stats due to being solo tanks. In my tank games, if I don't get hard countered, I can take over lobbies because it's really hard for the dps and supports to deal with me. But as soon as they swap to hard counter me, it goes in a complete 180. There is no in between: it's either you take over lobbies or just straight up don't have fun. And a lot of times, I experience the second part to the point where I straight up don't want to play that role anymore.

Wherever i hear people talk about how bad double shield was they put the sole blame on the tanks when it was mostly bap and brig that made the meta terrible, brig was made to counter dive basically making double shield the ultimate comp because it almost had no weaknesses. It could have been fixed by nerfing sig shield and reworking orisa, or simply releasing JQ or Ram was they would run through the comp. I don't think team 4 actually used their heads when taking one tank away

I'm surely not the only one that remembers that they said in early ow dev interviews that 6v6 was the perfect format for the game, through trial and testing????

i absolutely love your mic quality it makes me more interested in your opinion on this topic w video

You’re absolutely right, I really can’t wait for your tank guide for learning how to counter pick!

I think the fundamental issue is 5v5 as a pvp format has proven to work but OW2 did none of the things needed to make it work as a format you have to understand you have to fundamentally rebuild every character and how characters are designed for 5v5 to function(GW2 has probably the best 5v5 pvp of any game and it works cause it doesn't use a true holy trinity system every class can do a bit of all three and you pick the emphasis with your build) and OW2 has not done that.

A friendly reminder that Paladins exists and locks you in on your character. However, in locking you in, it allows pre customization and in game sessions changes/upgrades to enhance your play style or counter; so long as you're actively participating

I think it's really strange how the discussion revolving around 6v6/5v5 is dominated by an entirely different discussion from what we should be having from a pragmatic point of view (that being balance and meta concerns). Regardless on whether you prefer one format over the other from a pure gameplay perspective, this has never been the primary reason as to why 5v5 came into existence. It's always been a queue time issue above all else. While I don't doubt that Team 4 wants to create the best game possible, it's far more important to them that it's a popular one. Tanks will always be the least popular role by a long shot, it’s a natural result of how the role is supposed to work on an extremely fundamental level. 5v5, for all its supposed flaws, fixes this issue with a beautiful simplicity. The only way to really remedy this is by fundamentally (meaning more than even a change of format can over) changing how tanks are designed and played, as tanks have been the least popular role for all of OW1 and 2 role lock, regardless of meta. I have never had a real issue with 5v5 but wouldn’t mind 6v6 if it weren’t for the queue times. I’d love to hear more discussion about how 6v6 would rectify this front. And no, the increased player count would not help as queue times are a result of ratio of players that are looking for each individual roles, not sheer numbers. More people would have to play tank than at any time of the game’s existence, and I simply don’t believe that this to be something so insignifcant that we need to focus on unfun metas before it.

I hope this blows up and more people can see this and discuss it

Winston's Dad: "Never accept the world as it appears to be. Dare to see it for what it could be." Jake: "we have to have a game that represents the playerbase as it is, not as we want it to be" 😞

I love the thumbnail, it's good when people take the humorous approach lol

This video is fire, you argue your points with great examples. Gonna recommend it to Samito, I hope he watches it on stream if he hasn't already 🔥

The sad part is there are a few people in the community that could whip up a patch in less than a day that could easily make blizzard millions but their egos are hefty as fuck

So the problem right now is that when people counterswap to a situationally better tank, there is no counterplay you can do other than counterswapping the counterswap?

Tanking these days is like watching a single pokemon battle where each player has a fire, water and grass type, just constant swapping out for type advanced. This game was based on counter picks and part of that was picking characters that counter heroes that countered your teammates, can't do that with 1 tank

You know whats ironic, every tank in the current meta (season 11) feels pretty balanced the way they interact with eachother and the variety of heroes you can play. Yet tank still feels terrible, I wonder why…

the inability to do ANYTHING to nerf double shield as a viable strategy is not an excuse for blizzard to completely abandon the idea of 5v5 and never admit theyre wrong. same reason role queue exists, because they couldn't figure out how to stop GOATS so they gave up and made it impossible

that counter swapping clip had me fucking rolling

Thank you for addressing the double shield excuse, it's becoming a pet peeve of mine lmao

@EmmaxoOCE

4 күн бұрын

They do it because they don’t have a better argument

As a former tank player, I'm so glad I walked when the game went 5v5 so I don't have to run back to spawn every game to counterpick to be competitive.

I lost it when you compared hog to thanos and put a photo of thanos smiling, thank you for that laugh 😂😂

basically it boils down to two types of tanks in ow2. 1) skilled tanks who can be punished for misplaying: doom, jq, zarya, winston, rein and sig (to a degree) 2) the other tanks who take zero skill and counterpick the tanks mentioned before: hog, mauga and orisa. then you have bap and kiri in the game to make these heros even more insufferable to play against.

I just miss playing Rein-Zarya on King’s Row :(

God I miss the tank synergies ngl

Great video man. In depth and covers all the bases.

i haven't played tank since season 9, hp changes just feels like it amplified every issue that tank had on top of the dps passive.