The Shaditerranean Technique Lol

I hope you test it also at much bigger distances than 10m. When i used the opposite mediterrenean draw awhile ago, my arrows tend to going astray at bigger distances.

I've fully watched all your videos on this topic (and also all of Shads videos on the topic), and the one thing I don't quite understand is, what's the downside of the slavic and/or thumb draw with the arrow on the right side? What is the benefit of right side mediterranian draw over right side slavic/thumb draw? In all these videos, the topic is always "some people say drawing on the right side might have advantages", but why specifically drawing on the right side with mediterranian draw? If it's just about the side of the bow, why is the draw even relevant regarding the advantages or disadvantages a side has?

@dragoscoco2173

4 жыл бұрын

Left side requires arrows of equal spine for good accuracy. On the right side using a khatra like technique you can get a reasonable accuracy with differently spined arrows. If you cannot chose the spine of your arrows, as if in a wartime setting, right-side has an accuracy advantage. That is not to say you cannot to khatra on the left, but it is clumsy and your hand is in the way.

@NeoSarpedon

4 жыл бұрын

Twisting of the string with the mediterrenean draw gives the arrow placed on the right side of the bow an anticlockwise spin and torque, which increases its kinetic energy, range and penetration force. (This principle is also used in firearms to increase the impact of the bullet.)

@ummonk

4 жыл бұрын

@@NeoSarpedon Yeah ryddragyn had a video of the equivalent with the thumb draw on the left: kzread.info/dash/bejne/dIGeq7anoqWXcaQ.html I still don't see why one would prefer it to the slavic draw though. The slavic draw makes it much easier to keep the arrow from falling off when you draw on the right.

@Intranetusa

2 жыл бұрын

@@dragoscoco2173 I've never read or heard of khatra ever being performed with the Mediterranean draw though as I thought it was exclusively an Asiatic technique paired with thumb draw. Are there any historical sources that paired med-draw with khatra?

@Intranetusa

2 жыл бұрын

@@NeoSarpedon There is no difference in energy between placing the arrow on the left or right side. The arrows are spinning regardless of what side you shoot it because the spin is caused by the string + serving (strings can be twisted both clockwise and conterclockwise), and feather fletchings (the spin direction being affected by feather type). Also, string twist caused by the release itself is supposed to be kept to a minimum when trying to ensure a clean release - excessive string twist is caused by a bad release where the string is rolling off off the finger with great friction. The rotation of bullets through rifling is for accuracy rather than increased power.

Hi. I will thank you for your videos. Today i do my first shots from bow. You helped me a lot.

I always end up within a few wild shots an Fumbling arrows going back to thumb when I'm on that side of the Bow! Gary Chynne uses a variant English Khatra on His Warbows, I can't help clearing the Arrows path on any Bow I use thanks to Gazza! I remember seeing some footage of an Asian Tribe who shot this style? Unreal show, thanks Nui.

A slight wrist rotation to the left...as in more straight up and down Raise thumb...Draw bow...Lower thumb...Loose

You can do the oppisite Medi draw without the thumb up when you change the grip on the string a little bit: Put the string in the 2nd joint (like the french draw) and than twist the drawhand inside (thumb to the face). This way you can press the arrow with the 2nd joint of your middlefinger, even when you hold the bow horizontal.

Brilliant observation Sir. I have similarly tried the same techniques as well, and I must say, the Slavic draw works perfect for me, and more natural, since I also shoot bare Bow Mediterranean style, 3 finger under. It makes transitioning over from Traditional Asiatic style shooting, to Medi style more fluid in my case. Thank you for sharing😇🏹🏹👍

It hurts right thumbs sensei but it works in maintaining the arrow.

Nice shooting, Khatra is often used with the Slavic release also. I'd guess the arrow is falling off your hand when you shoot with fingers because the string is twisting away from the bow in your fingers as you draw. Normally you don't notice this because the twist pushes the arrow into the bow from the left side. To counter this try putting the string on the tips of your fingers and rolling into the hook rather than grabbing deep and rolling out. I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain but easy to show. All the best!

@archeryboras5921

4 жыл бұрын

You are clever. I don't know exactly what you mean, but it works, it's my experience. How many years do you shoot?

Love that you did this. in a lot of the art work the thumb is up as well so I would leave the criticism of your doing it wrong in the dust where it belongs. thanks love the content

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

Could you provide a link to an image of art with the thumb up? I have looked the art over and haven't seen any with the thumb up, so I am very interested to see it.

@theredfox22

4 жыл бұрын

James K c7.alamy.com/comp/R5CT5J/martyrdom-of-st-sebastian-hours-of-bonaparte-ghislieri-italy-bologna-circa-1500-whole-folio-hours-of-the-holy-ghost-st-sebastian-tied-on-a-tree-from-which-the-branches-have-been-lopped-with-two-angels-two-archers-draw-their-bows-to-shoot-each-has-a-quiver-of-arrows-set-in-a-green-landscape-with-water-and-hills-in-the-distance-borders-of-symmetrical-acanthus-decoration-with-jewelled-corner-and-centre-pieces-image-taken-from-hours-of-bonaparte-ghislieri-originally-publishedproduced-in-italy-bologna-circa-1500-source-yates-thompson-29-f132v-language-latin-author-R5CT5J.jpg this last one I really like because if you look closely you see the artist deliberately put the arrow to the far side of the bow for each archer even with them facing different direction now just because we don’t have text of people shooting a bow in a certain way we do see depictions of this style being used again artists draw what they see at least the good ones do now we can’t say all did archery this way that just like the say because one person wrote down how something is done to conclude that all people did it that way now this is a reason the method fell out of favor and that is what intrigues me

@NUSensei

4 жыл бұрын

@@theredfox22 The last illustration looks like a thumb draw with composite bows.

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

@@theredfox22 Thank you for providing those images, but I've seen them before and it doesn't look like a raised thumb is being depicted.

I've no doubt someone did try this, and it then became the Slavic draw.

@lubossoltes321

4 жыл бұрын

that was exactly my reaction when Shad came up with this (and his comical attempts to justify it). basically there must have been somebody in the centuries where bow and arrow ruled the battlefield that tried this. since we have no mention of it almost anywhere, it was not effective against the other methods we know about today.

What's your opinion on the slavic vs thumb draw? As in which do you prefer and why? Your videos are great keep it up buddy!

@jasonv2559

4 жыл бұрын

I taught myself the slavic draw and then learned of the thumb draw afterward. In my experience, people who are new to archery is quick to learn the thumb draw, and people who already shot medi style would transfer easier with the slavic draw. In addition, practicing using the slavic draw for a long period can result in not using any gear onwards, I do’t know if that’s the case for the thumb draw but i still feel pain after 3;4 round using thumb. Also, i find it easier to hold more arrows using the slavic draw than the thumb draw, just my opinion tho.

I like this "just having fun".. I had fun watching. BTW, I noticed you leaned forward using the Turkish bow, not like when you bow a recurve. Why is that?

Have you videotaped your Katra (spelling) in slow motion. I have seen some and the arrow is past the riser when they start the Katra.

Why, when shooting arrows off the right of the longbow, are you jerking to the left towards the end of the shot? When you started shooting off the left side that seemed to go away.

I noticed you were using khatra whilst shooting mediterranean on the left & your arrows were grouping slightly to the left. Lately I've found myself using khatra, shooting mediterranean on the left, but khatra the opposite way. It's not something I've done consciously, but it seems to work ;)

Bro when are you going to start playing realistic Battles in War Thunder?

@brianwyters2150

4 жыл бұрын

He said in the past he doesn't want to do war thunder. I'm not sure if he changed his mind yet.

@stridsvagn1039

4 жыл бұрын

It would be nice if he came back to war thunder for a bit just to check how it is now.

I wish I could try this. The finger on the shaft thin... shit, phrasing. Placing your index finger on the arrow during the draw sounds really... weird to try.

@dragoscoco2173

4 жыл бұрын

Every new technique is weird unless trained. I've shot 3 finger right-side from the get go. Trying left-side feels cringe, but I am sure it can be easily trained. There is no need for the Slavic finger on the arrow IMO, if you draw so as not to torque the string, I know I am doing it a bit differently in this regard. The string is more closer to the fingertips and the fingers are less bent around the string while drawing.

What arrows are you using in this video? They look really nice.

@1:16 isn't it dangerous to fire with that man downrange?

You should note that when Armin (which you show in the video holding the thumb up, to indicate that might be necessary) applies string twist, he can tilt the bow down and shake it without the arrow "falling off". It's still, with the videos put out til now, not clear whether you are required to do something impractical to make the "wrong side mediterranean" work. I would recommend still experimenting more instead of trying to draw conclusions at this stage. It still looks like "we" (everyone attempting this technique in these related videos) are amateurs in this specific style, so fumbling around, and will have amateur problems. Since there have been issues finding really good, highly descriptive historical sources for the details of this technique I would also keep an open mind for things like string twist and khatra, perhaps this was used if it is practical.

@NUSensei

4 жыл бұрын

Personally, I feel that introducing string twist and khatra is taking the theory too far into the implausible area. These are concepts that developed with Middle Eastern archery specifically to adapt to the thumb draw and the bows used. You _can_ use side khatra with a light longbow, but I doubt executing it with a 100lb bow is going to be viable. We'd also have to somehow establish that historical English archers understood what khatra was, given that there is no evidence that they used thumb draws or short composite bows.

@Lamawalrus

4 жыл бұрын

@@NUSensei There are certainly more uncertainty about the draw when you talk about 100lb bows, though to me that conversation is just a small part of a larger conversation about archery. It's not like right side Mediterranean is uninteresting if a specific group (eg longbow archers at agincourt) of people chose not to use it for their specific purpose (shooting at armored opponents). I mentioned to keep an open mind mostly because the archers involved in this discussion have a lot of opportunity and skill required to test and try techniques to see what appears practical, to do "experimental archeology". But I have much less faith in them (or myself, or anyone who isn't extremely well-informed on this topic) to figure out if something was not done from sources, as with the limited source material, figuring out what they did NOT do seems extremely hard. An archer's effortful experimentation is more convincing/interesting than the same's attempts at doing very difficult history.

Just a thought: you mention that you found yourself unconsciously using khatra when shooting Mediterranean with the arrow on the right side of the bow, but it also looked as if you were using the same sort of khatra when the arrow was on the left - maybe unconsciously again - and the arrows seemed to be ending up to the left of centre on the target. I know I'm not telling you something that you didn't already know about - I was just wondering if you'd noticed or if it was deliberate.

@NUSensei

4 жыл бұрын

It looked like a normal reactive follow-through rather than khatra. The left-side drift may be because there's no shelf - and also my first and only time shooting Mediterranean with this bow.

Hey mate are you in Brisbane by any chance?

I shoot with the opposite Mediterranean, and the thumb's always up.

@nathancallan9376

4 жыл бұрын

@Beemer063 Nope, you just gotta get the routine down,. The only con is that if you shoot recurve the string grabs your thumb and pinches it above the knock.

I'm in team NuSensei when the zombie apocalypse occurs. Don't underestimate the benefits of the bow vs the undead.

For some reason, when I use the Slavic draw my arrows always go to the right. Using thumb draw with same bow/arrow I can hit center but not with Slavic. Strangely, shooting Slavic with no glove/tab seems to work better but as soon as I use a tab they consistently go right by several inches at only 10 feet. Anyone have any ideas? PS. I shoot right-handed.

@NUSensei

4 жыл бұрын

I shot to the right when I first tried Slavic. Something to remember is that the Slavic draw works best when you apply string twist. Turn the draw hand against the arrow shaft and on release the rotation should continue - you can see that my follow-through has the hand palm-down, and better shooters like Cozmei have a more pronounced outward flare. If you don't apply the twist, the Slavic draw basically comes out like a Mediterranean draw.

@Fuzzyham

4 жыл бұрын

@@NUSensei I'll give it a try. I've seen string twist used when shooting thumb draw but hadn't seen it or heard of it used in Slavic. Thanks.

When you fire an arrow, is it at its fastest and most powerful as soon as it leaves the bow. Or does it need to travel a few feet first?

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

As soon as it completely leaves the bow it's at its fastest. An arrow that is shot upwards will decelerate on the way up, then accelerate again on the way down, but it will never be as fast as it was right after it left the bow.

@CRileymcr

4 жыл бұрын

@@jamesk8730 this is what I presumed. But for some reason, stay with me on this. I couldn't get my head around it. If a zombie apocalypse was to happen. And one got the jump on me and I like literally had the bow and arrow like an inch away from his head. It was trying to bite me, I kept thinking the arrow would come out the bow and hit the head but cos it's so close it didn't seem to hit it's full potential velocity before hitting the zombie. So felt if it travelled a foot or so first it would have more power. Even though logic would say otherwise. Either way, thanks for the reply haha

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

@@CRileymcr Your logic makes sense, in the scenario you describe it doesn't sound like the arrow would have enough room to completely clear the bow. For the arrow to completly clear the bow there would need to be at least a full arrow's length between the arrowhead at full draw and the target (or the zombie :p). In other words, if you come to full draw, then place the arrowhead inches away from the target, and then shoot, the arrow will not be fully accelerated to its maximum speed.

@dragonwisard

4 жыл бұрын

The maximum velocity is achieved at about the point the arrow leaves the string. Once the string is no longer pushing on the arrow there is no force acting on the arrow to accelerate it, but there is drag acting on the arrow to decelerate it. That point is going to be right about where the string comes to rest, maybe a tiny bit forward of that. So where the arrow head is when the arrow is nocked but not drawn, that's the position at which it will have maximum velocity.

Have you experimented with the Ishi draw method? Notable is the reverse cant, a push draw, and the fact that the arrow passes under the thumb of the bow hand. kzread.info/dash/bejne/dYqL29anfJrbY9Y.html

Yeah if you would have held the bow still after the shot you would have hit way right.

When drawing on the right side with a heavy bow like an English Longbow you should be leaning the opposite direction with your bow leaning left not right. This engages your muscles in a different way allowing for you draw the bow much easier.

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

That's not true. Any increase in ease of drawing a bow with the reverse cant is coincidental and is completely overshadowed by the conventional technique used to draw heavy bows, which is used by every culture that has used very heavy bows. Mark Stretton and Joe Gibbs can both draw 200lb bows, and in fact Stretton currently holds the world record for the heaviest bow drawn. Note that both these archers shoot with the conventional method. The reverse cant method is ineffective and has no evidence for historical use (apart from Ishi, but he shot with a thumb draw and he achieved the cant by holding the bow at an angle, not by rotating his arm).

@theredfox22

4 жыл бұрын

James K to say there is no evidence of far side draw is like say we have no evidence of cave men using bow because artists are in reliable come on man look at all the art work artists draw what they see that is the point of a good artist now if one one artist drew all those pictures then maybe but so man pictures from so many location for several years of art has to be evidence of this draw being used now the interesting question is why did it fall out of favor?

@jamesk8730

4 жыл бұрын

@@theredfox22 Firstly, I said there was no evidence for historical use of the reverse tilt, not the far side draw. But speaking of the far side draw, there is extremely little evidence (for north/western medieval europe, specifically england) I concede that the art you mention does qualify as evidence, but it is extremely weak evidence. And no, this isn't the same as me saying stone age cave art isn't evidence for stone age archery use. It's easy for an artist to depict what tool was used, but it is much harder for them to depict the use of said tool accurately. My challenge to you is this: try to find as much medieval european art as you can of an archer not only with the arrow on the far side of the bow, but also with the arrow depicted BEHIND the bow (from the viewer's perspective), and compare it to the amount of art with the arrow on the near side and behind the bow. Art with the arrow on the far side and behind the bow is statistically very rare, which goes to show that the archers were depicted this way not because it was a legitimate technique, but because it was easier for the artist to first draw/paint the bow, then draw/paint the arrow over top of it. When the arrow is depicted behind the bow, it is almost always done in order to depict the arrow on the near side of the bow, because that is the correct side, and it is therefor worth the extra effort. I will remind you that the art you mention is the ONLY evidence for this style of shooting, in comparison to overwhelming evidence for the conventional method. In addition, countless cultures (native americans, african tribes, etc) in recent history have used archery for hunting and war, and ALL of them that shoot with a 3 finger or similar draw shoot with the arrow on the near side. This is something we have photographic evidence for. How do you explain that?

@theredfox22

4 жыл бұрын

James K how much art work would it take to prove the point? There is artwork that show far side arrows being used was it common maybe not and maybe it was the less practice in the “proper technique” and maybe there was a good number of archer that did find it easier to stay the heavy bows with a backwards tilt because if the “incidental benefit of the revers tilting fo the bow the fact is I much more appreciate nu sensei giving the technique a fair go then just saying no evidence of the technique when we have evidence of the technique in competitive video games meta form because of increased skill and performance as the western Cultures mixed more and more it is understandable that a meta of how to shoot a bow. But if you just drop a bow in to some ones lap with no instruction on how to use the bow I’m sure we would see a large variety of ways to shoot a bow.

@TechnoMinarchist

4 жыл бұрын

@@jamesk8730 There is an example of it working in this video kzread.info/dash/bejne/a5ZlqrJro8yvYpc.html Shad also described it as being easier to draw this way. For implementation in terms of accuracy, that just takes practice, which this video shows. kzread.info/dash/bejne/mKFkydKhesbUoKw.html

The fuck was that nutter doing at 1:17?

You shouldn't shoot when other people is recovering their arrows. That's something any kid knows. Go back to basics.

@d0nb3x

3 жыл бұрын

It is difficult to tell how far apart they are shooting. There is a certain distance (25m IIRC) above which it is considered safe to be shooting on different whistles (i.e. independently).