Everyone gets so focused on Minorities and Representation ... Nobody even notice that Black Elf's Ears are growing from his neck. xD

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

Well-spotted

@mid-westmusic3472

6 күн бұрын

Probably ai generated

@thethingwithfins

6 күн бұрын

Allow me to introduce you to a new term... angles

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

6 күн бұрын

@@thethingwithfins You could argue your point better if you made it less personal. I'm all up for a robust discussion but argue the point not the person.

Elves aren't a problem, people wanting to take the fantastic out of the fantastical is. Everything has to equate to mundane modernity.

@kontrarien5721

7 күн бұрын

Once upon a time it was creative and subversive to imagine the fantastical as mundane. Now it's way overdone and is erasing fantasy entirely. Pointy-ear humans, short humans, tusk humans, bird humans, etc, etc, etc . . .

@tomraineofmagigor3499

6 күн бұрын

​@@kontrarien5721like at least give a reason for it. I have a story where the creation story is that in deep levels of reality there's an energy of probability. It would constantly create incomplete creation that would collapse back into probability. Eventually it made stable creation by pure chance. What it created was people that called themselves humans but everyone in lower levels of reality when talking of the myth calls them the first species. Due to them being so close to the energy of probability their imagination gives intent to the power allowing stable creation at an ever growing rate. Due to how imagination works many species look similar to themselves

I agree with your point on the elves. I don't like that we can't have subtle things - everything has to be on the nose. This is I much prefer Warhammer fantasy elves. They are more magical, more ethreal. more subtle and just better than humans, but it is balanced through destiny points and relations with other races. Elves are immortal and literally responsible for the world not being consumed by chaos, so they have plenty more responsibilities to cater to.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

I like your point about subtle things.

@mikewaterfield3599

7 күн бұрын

“Humans wield the weave, elves are part of it” Khelben “Black Staff” Arunsun. I don’t get Hasbro and their march against fifty years of established lore. It is not “racist”, these are not even “races” they are species. Moon elves are literally made by Corelion’s second wife and sun elves by Corelion himself. Orcs are not “coded black” and were literally created by a god of rape and pillage. The outrage mob needs to get the hell over it. As for Warhammer……… damn GW and the Skaven for nuking the world that was. Age of $H1tm@r is a pale ghost of Christmas past by contrast.

@alithanar8

6 күн бұрын

I completely agree on your points here, the Asur generally are the best race in Warhammer. They have the best skills due to their lifespan but because of that they are responsible for making sure the lesser races do not destroy themselves and the world at large (nuts to AoS). The only two races that could take up some of the responsibility that the Elves maintain are either staying underground and do not understand the Weave of Magic like they do (also they have a hatred of Elves that borders on Jealousy), or maintaining their own temples and fighting their own wars against Chaos so they do not have the Lizardpower or resources to care for the world of Mallus at large.

@michaelblackett8195

3 күн бұрын

@karlirahae5267 Good old WFRP, loved the 1st edition and actually played the version first published by FFG which some common ground with Cubicle 7 old world setting. Yup, liked the Elves in both, shame WotC/Hasbro had to ruin things, but there you go.

Ever since onednd i have sworn im not buying it. I run an open table and That player can sit next to me so i can troubleshoot.

@Djanck000

7 күн бұрын

I felt the same way when AD&D turned into D&D 3E.

If they wanted to create a Plus Sized Elf they should have looked at the Anime for inspiration!

@kontrarien5721

7 күн бұрын

Well, it looks like they wanted the *whole* elf to be plus-size, not just two particular parts!

The thing is Elves are the best race in Fantasy, they should be visually representative of that fact. They are a fair race that are based off of certain cultures mythology which means that it makes more sense that they are fair skinned and thin, I would say due to magic purging the unnecessary fats and the like that would make having an overweight elf usually mean something is very, very wrong with them either medically or socially. Usually in most fantasy setting there are very few of them due to either low birthrates or other factors which would mean children are celebrated so that would mean that as a culture the Elves would prioritize hetero relationships for pure procreative necessity. The fact remains that Elves are pretty much a race of nigh immortal people that would spend their many, many years making life the best both singularly and for their people. Also them changing their sexuality makes no sense to me, that would put way too much faith in Magic not to mess things up (yes I am a Warhammer fan so I tend to not trust magic that far, Tzeentch and Slaanesh have a very twisted sense of humor when it comes to people making that many changes to their bodies). Also as most elves in fantasy are religious people I would say that changing your body magically, if you even have that capability, would be tantamount to claiming their own gods made a mistake in your creation. I do not think that, in any settings where the gods are proven to be real, any creature would willingly risk offending even the most even tempered god of their own race directly.

I appreciate your sensitivity when covering this topic! As a worldbuilder myself who runs DND this is an interesting query that comes up semi regularly. When you have a race like orcs it's easier to distance them from human stuff, although these days its getting more difficult even for more 'monstrous' races but when it comes to elves in DND they are specifically very Eurocentric with their appearances but when you have a player not of that demographic who wants to make a character that looks more like them you run into a bit of an issue. I agree with the art direction. Elves should be tall, thin and somewhat scary or unnerving in my opinion or at least alien in some way and WOTC aren't interested in delivering something like that at the moment

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

I agree, elves should be otherworldly.

@imaginationcore2104

7 күн бұрын

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh I actually have a similar Stance with assimar honestly, although I find it a little strange aasmiar and tieflings aren't things you can slap onto other races. At the end of the day DnDs audience had expanded thanks to things like stranger things and a critical roll and so that broader audience will inevitably want to see some from of themselves reflected in the classes and races they play. Still and interesting thing to think about though !

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

@@imaginationcore2104 Yes, remember Bloodlines? Any race/ species could have Fey or Giant, Demonic or Dragon or anything else in their DNA. It cost a level (up to 3 depending on the amount you wanted to take). Then there were templates that you could add to a character that gave it a level adjustment. That was another good idea.

@vander7484

6 күн бұрын

DND elves are not tall, thats tolkien elves.

This is your game, and the heart of the greater playerbase that shall be. The 5th edition of the game is ended, and the new edition is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what must be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the corporation also is ended. And all the table top RPG's that you see, and those that lie round about them, shall be open source. For the time comes of the Dominion of players, and the wizards of the coast shall fade or depart. - JRR Tolkien or some shit I donno I am lysdexic.

The reason inclusivity is so limited in scope is because it’s not driven by a desire to be inclusive, it’s to try to earn some good boy points after all the terrible crap WotC has done the last few years. That’s why it can feel sloppy, poorly thought out, and incomplete. Theres no real passion to do better behind it.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

Yes, it is more about seeming to be inclusive than actually being inclusive IMO.

@tomraineofmagigor3499

6 күн бұрын

Yup. Cause they're "supposed" to be inclusive. It's not offensive to say the average Orc is stronger than the average Gnome but that's not true anymore

There's this new fallacy that fantasy worlds must mirror modern society, i.e. any city, town or village should have the demographics of downtown Los Angeles. I blame race-fixated Americans. If WOTC wants to sell campaign worlds with every possible and impossible skin color, gender and ableness, well, more power to them. At the same time, those who prefer more traditional fantasy worlds shouldn't be attacked. Archetypes are a feature of many mythologies and imagined worlds. Just as a trading city on the coast can be a melting pot, it stands to reason that a secluded village off the beaten track is more likely to be ethnically homogeneous. That some people have trouble keeping fantasy and reality apart is evident in the half-elf/half-orc/half-whatever debate. A half-elf isn't the same as s real-world human of mixed heritage. Elves and humans are different species; someone in the real world with one fair-skinned parent and one dark-skinned parent isn't a mix of two races. Humans belong to the same species; to talk about different races is, well, racist. Projecting modern-day US politics on fantasy worlds might be an interesting philosophical exercise, but then what's the point with fantasy and escapism in the first place? If my players want to play characters who are non-traditional, they are welcome to do so as long as it is within the parameters of the campaign world. Like it is said in the video: "It's your table".

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

6 күн бұрын

Well said.

To the people complaining about wasting money on rpg books. Welcome to the edition change. You must be new here. Personally i have had to go through that four times just for D&D… If you don’t like the new edition you can still play 5e. Your books aren’t being thrown down a furnace

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

Good point. Five times if you count 3.0 and 3.5. Talking about it is part of the process of change though. In the end, I'll probably buy the books just like everyone else.

@oliviawilliams6204

7 күн бұрын

@@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh well i counted 3 to 3,5, but i didn’t play first and 4th

@Djanck000

7 күн бұрын

@@oliviawilliams6204 I played AD&D, 3E, 3.5E and 5E. A whole lot of money. Don't get why people are specially offended this time, but i'm seeing a LOT of people offended by it. Also seeing a giant amount of people offended by black and asian elves (not even a new thing if you ever cared to read the different elves descriptions). Although i love the new popularity of TTRPG, more people mean more people to be offended over nothing.

@Abumustard6364

7 күн бұрын

I think part of it is that newer players treat it like a (live service?) video game getting a new expansion or sequel. So they feel obliged to move on or get left in the dust. Can also see it in the way a lot of people look down on homebrew and straying from the official materials.

@ShadowXardas

7 күн бұрын

Yeah my group had no intention of switching to onednd because we already have all the 5e books.

8:05 Arent they just removing it mechanically? They are also putting alot less pressure on start race correct? U cant still be a halfing in game? I do like Elves presenting nonbiary tho thats a fun ideal. But, idk im not sure much media did that

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

Yes, there is more of a focus on backgrounds.

For the record, I'm sorry for calling you a racist, it's a harsh term and I was judging based off of the one video. What I meant to say is, you were choosing to see each individual (irl) race in the artwork. Which I don't see race, and I wouldn't have given it two thoughts had you not said something. When it comes to fantasy races, by which I mean genetic traits, things get more difficult. There's obviously very inhuman traits such as green/purple skin, large canines, pointy ears, etc. It makes it hard to differentiate, and therefore I find it weird that you called the green-skinned elf Asian, despite the fact that she has strong cheekbones and smaller eyes. The way I see elves and skin-tones, is that there are different sub-races of elves that each are described as having specific features. "The sun elves of Faerûn (also called gold elves or sunrise elves) have bronze skin and hair of copper, black, or golden blond. Their eyes are golden, silver, or black. Moon elves (also called silver elves or gray elves) are much paler, with alabaster skin sometimes tinged with blue. They often have hair of silver-white, black, or blue, but various shades of blond, brown, and red are not uncommon. Their eyes are blue or green and flecked with gold." So to have different coloured elves makes sense, however I would agree that the artwork is probably for show of human (irl) diversity rather than the fantasy setting. I don't think the African-styled hair is cultural appropriation, but ultimately I think it matters to the individual on what features are cultural, vs. personal. I think hair is more of a personal form of identity and expression, although some would argue that and that's okay. Someone might style their hair "African-style" because they like it and find that it suits them, however some might do it because it's what they were taught for their culture. Articles that start arguments over it I think are just rage-bait. When it comes to half-elves, I think that that term is only used for those who are born from a human and an elf. If a half-elf has a kid with a human, the child is considered human with elven ancestry. There are some settings where half-species can breed and have entire communities, and some where they are sterile. Obviously ancestry is not going to fall in-line with irl genetics, so 3/8ths elf would probably still be called human due to the majority percentage. Irl that makes no sense and it would be wrong to tell someone that they are white because they have majority white-ness even though they have dark skin. Genetics, especially in fantasy, are weird. IDK how you'd like to run it, but personally I won't be creating punnett squares for every character lol. There some more arguments here if you'd like to look into it: www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/4a84ua/are_halfelves_sterile/ As for androgyny, why is this controversial? There can be males who look female, females who look male, and those who are fluid. It's stupid and pointless to argue about it. However if we're gonna go by the description of androgyny in elves you can't argue the couple were a male-male couple and that their kid wasn't theirs. Because, there's no way to know right? Even if so, then the kid could very well have been adopted and chosen based on physical traits from both parents. I could see it, but you're also right in the context that it is most likely representation for human (irl) diversity. I don't think WotC or Hasbro are trying to trick kids into thinking males can give birth, yet this is also a fantasy race and that may be applicable. Different species irl are in fact genderfluid, like the clownfish: which all are born male. You are right when it comes to diversity representation, and that media has been fucking up a lot. I even hear from my gay, and coloured friends, that they're tired of the over-representation as well as the misinterpretation in popular media. It happens when companies are forced to appeal to a specific group of people, in which they might not be familiar with. But it also happens in extremist cases where a group of extremist writers write one of the worst representing characters for the target group. Such as the case of Captain Marvel(movie), where the character was meant to be a strong woman, but only had strong masculine qualities and no feminine ones. There wasn't any depth to character, she was a Mary Sue: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

8 күн бұрын

Thank you for your apology and I am glad that we have found some common ground. You make some good points, which was the main purpose of the videos to open a dialogue. I took your comments onboard and will consider them.

@mikewaterfield3599

7 күн бұрын

There are Asians as we would know them in D&D, they hail from the Shou Lung empire predominantly. Your ignorance on the topic is astounding. Elves are a separate species with different types of elves literally created or warped (in the case of the Drow) by different gods. As for you reference to “Captain Marvel” you might consider that comic book was published and discontinued six times due to poor sales and Carrol Danverse is not even the original nor the best selling version. Furthermore, Bree Larson is objectively a wooden and over rated actress. You want to know why fans rejected her? Go back to the access Hollywood interview and read the body language with her and her co stars. Lace well your diatribe with facts. D&D exists in a fantasy world, not in 2024 downtown LA on the campus of UCLA. there are evil gods. There are beings literally created with an innate compulsion to destroy. There are well intended “good aligned” people who become tyrants (see “thorn hold” for that one). Current year politics have no business in the forgotten realms. No orcs are not “coded black”, and yes Drow near universally have coal black skin “like living obsidian” and can literally see your body heat. That is called adaptation not “racial essentialism”. Are sharks “differently abled” and “discriminating” against other fish because they have senses others don’t?

@sd5919

7 күн бұрын

This is an attempt at gaslighting. The artist went by the racial checklist. You'd need to be lobotomized not to notice. We live in such a fake era. I wonder what people will make of it in a century.

@tomraineofmagigor3499

6 күн бұрын

​@@mikewaterfield3599right! When people say Orcs are coded black I ask them "so are you saying black people were made by a god for the sole purpose of pillaging?"

@mikewaterfield3599

6 күн бұрын

@@tomraineofmagigor3499 yeah, im assuming that is a joke. Yeah sorry to say orcs really were made to breed like rabbits and serve as fodder for murder hobos in terms of game play. In lore terms they are meant to literally outbreed every other species and take over Abeir Toril. Orcs were literally created by Gruumsh “One Eye” to rape and pillage to world into submission. Can individuals break away? Occasionally sure (see “Shield of Innocence” for that one). Just like Liriel Baenre and Drizzt, they are outliers not the norm. We literally have an orc in “the Chosen of Nendawyn” referring to how much he is going to enjoy “violating” a young woman before he eats her.

The Burger King kids club elves are cringe.

4:30 What's your point about this being a "children's book"?

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

I meant that it is a book that might be used by younger children (prepubescent) in which some of these concepts might not be fully understood. I'm no early childhood psychologist, though.

@mister_r447

7 күн бұрын

@@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh What is there to understand? "Oh, these 2 men love eachother like mama and papa do." It's not a hard concept to grasp and children are smarter then you give them credit.

@ragingbanshee

7 күн бұрын

The point obviously is that two men standing closer than 6 feet apart is a perversion of nature and shouldn't be in the sight of impressionable children, obviously. "Warning: may contain traces of sarcasm." Which obviously we should detect and be 'mature' about it when I speak on something, but not when someone disagrees with me and uses so many mean and agressive words like 'basement dweller.' Like many other videos of its kind, this doesn't actually say what the creator wants to say because they know how their opinions will sound. I'm surprised the comments don't since they usually tend to be more explicit, but maybe it hasn't made the rounds yet. Having art that's meant to represent the various types of elves based on the options that are available in a book that you want to sell? I wonder why they collated all the elven options together, it's such a mystery. As to how they chose which races they wish to include or exclude, it's quite obvious, to me at least, that they're catering this to particular demographics in the countries they sell this in, and they wanted to persuade as many people as possible towards buying their product. Not sure why exactly skin colour variations would make a fantasy lineage less otherwordly, but we're going back to 'this is a mature discussion and all of us playing and discussing the game are adults, except for the children who may see two male presenting figures together on a bench... mmmenacingly.' Snark aside, the game trying to be more inclusive and welcoming them has brought nothing but good in my experience. Our local game shop has been absolutely thriving recently and every time I go I see new faces and get to play with different kinds of people. Maybe 'basement dweller' is meant to be a comment on isolationists who 'just have questions - perchance "problems?"' regarding seeing people they deem different included in something they think they own and should only cater to them. Okay, I haven't put the snark aside. What a tedious 'discussion' that leads noweher because people who claim they want to have it don't actually say what they mean and instead make allusions to things being 'concerning' or somehow inappropriate. At least the people who call me slurs are straightforward.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

@@mister_r447 Not at all. Don't try to put words in my mouth. But topic this is something better discussed between children and their parents/ guardians/ school counselors/ or trained professionals, rather than in a game. I know that some children can handle it but it is not up to a game company (which is only worried about sales) to make those decisions.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

@@ragingbanshee Thank you for your comments. You seem to have made a lot of assumptions, most of them are incorrect. I can see that this video has hit a nerve with you. Sorry about that.

Call me crazy but elves comes from Norse mythology and they should be fay-like or downright alien, not ressembling a San Francisco pride parade.

Okay, i can see potential problem with the art in D&D 2024 and involvement of Woke/DEI tropes throughout. Dont get me wrong, i actually started in the mid 80s with Basic D@D before moving on to Runequest, MERP AD&D 2e and finally Cyberpunk 2020/Rifts in the 90s - which were my go to. I also remember before going to school in the UK some conservatives on morning tv campaigning against RPG, with a copy of the old Chill rpg that these games lead to devil worship. Yeah, right... Well its 2024 and Hasbro/WotC are rolling out One D&D, influenced by DEi and woke agenda. Artwork either corporate stock boardroom bland crus or as you so clearly illustrate 'off'. The Elves look like a design concept for the Acolyte force witch portrayal by Disney Star Wars. So i could see a similar history where conservatives grab a copy of the rules go on tv and go do we really want to pollute childrens upbringing with this woke crud? If they are not doing so already.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

7 күн бұрын

MERP was fun. It has been decades since I have played that. You raise some good points. I also remember my parents being worried about the demonic influences of D&D based on the media hype.

@mikewaterfield3599

7 күн бұрын

To be fair, I lived through the satanic panic of the 80’s it started when wackadoos who happened to be beyond hardcore D&D players ritualistically murdered four teens. Literally saying “they were role playing”. The irony is I went through that only to live to see the leftoid WOKEies take their turn now. What is it with liberals and feeling a compulsive need to mutate everything they see? You don’t love something if you insist on fundamentally warping everything about it.

Does this man not know what subraces are? and that Elves have like a dozen of them? That look different? Heck theres blue elves in the sea with finned ears. This just looks like a bunch of different elven subraces being represented in one spot. As for plus sized... I mean.. not every elf has to be extremely slim? They aren't some otherworldy beings anymore. They've existed for ages in the mortal plane as mortals. If you live long enough and you eat well... I imagine anyone would put on a few pounds.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

6 күн бұрын

Did you just assume that I am a man? How 2018 of you?!? 🤣 I take your point that they could be a group of elves from all different lineages (subraces are out now) but it still does not answer the issue that they all look like humans with pointy ears rather than elves. I don't have a problem with green or blue elves, or copper or golden or black, or any complexion, just that I think if we make them too human-like, they lose their otherworldliness.

So... New editions mean new books. Since ever. Nothing new, don't get why people are offended. Some types of elves have been described as having "golden", "tanned", "copper" and "dark brown" skins since at least AD&D (as well as having their eyes also described in all sorts of ways). The Forgotten Realms setting in particular has a lot of different "flavors" of elves. Again, nothing new, don't get why people are suddenly offended by it. Being offended by the gender fluidity of elves is some next lvl "dipsh*ttery" and that dude "Brian Clements" is absolutely right (specially in his tone). If gender fluid elves (or anything for that matter, even gender fluid green skinned classic "warcraft" big buff orcs) offend you your skin is too thin for contact with the outside air and it's better if you stay in your safe space.

@SamanthaAnnFox

7 күн бұрын

You sound like the one who needs the safe space

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

6 күн бұрын

I don't think anyone is upset by 'flavor'. Given any special context, anything is possible. The Fey have a lot of variety in particular.

The crack fiends at WOKE on the Coke who turned on fifty years of established lore are the problem. These are different species. Drow literally have a little demon blood in them. It is simple reality. The different species of D&D are different species. Not just “cool skins” and guess what? The people of Abeir Toril will react differently to different species.

@thejuiceking2219

7 күн бұрын

i mean not like it really matters at this stage like lets be real, they know damn well whatever they stick in the books people are just gonna homebrew out anyway

@mikewaterfield3599

7 күн бұрын

@@thejuiceking2219 people like me will. Every D&D player I know will. What saddens me is how many people might look at “one d&d” and think that is the bench mark of the forgotten realms. A sanitized, homogenized thing where the only variety is arbitrary outward appearances with as much impact as what color t shirt im wearing ATM. Its why I despise Amazon for their abomination. Young people might watch “the Pronouns of Pewter” and actually think that is Tolkien’s work. Hell I still use THAC0 because I have basic math skills. One thing is for sure, dragons still retain their full breadth of age classes and alignment matters.

@thejuiceking2219

7 күн бұрын

@@mikewaterfield3599 gonna be honest, it took me a bit to realise what 'the pronouns of pewter' meant'

@mikewaterfield3599

7 күн бұрын

@@thejuiceking2219 your good, of all the “modern audience” updates. I find that one offensive.

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

6 күн бұрын

@@mikewaterfield3599 THAC0! You are old school! 😀

thought you had saomething to say along the lines of , "Elves tend to be problematic in many fantasy worlds" or maybe even "mechanically ONE DND elves are a mess" but you just straight up resorted to racism and prejudice. yikes

@TheSpicyDungeoneer-qv5qh

5 күн бұрын

Not at all. You have misunderstood my point, entirely. I'm talking about themes, cultural tropes, and consistency. Also, that making elves or dwarves or orcs like humans makes them less fantastical. I ask questions about the appropriation of other cultures in order to seem inclusive. And I don't offer solid conclusions, I am just asking questions. If you aren't able to understand that, you shouldn't resort to these baseless and immature accusations.