No one who talks abnout THAC0 seems to mention that most character sheets used to have a table at he bottom where you filled in to hit roll and to hit number. We basically only did any math at all when thac0 changed. If you can call shuffling the numbers by one in one row of a table math. Which for the fighter was each new level and for the mage would be every third level. So roll the dice, check the two-line table at the bottom of the char sheet, and tell the DM what AC you hit.

@andrewtomlinson5237

Жыл бұрын

Those tables were long before THAC0... It was between 1e and 2e AD&D that players around the world started to realise that those tables could be condensed into one "AC0" number with the +1 to 10, -1 to 10 being worked out in your head. It became such a popular table rule, which was simple, obvious and literally changed nothing in the rules that TSR grabbed it as a fundamental update to 2E with both hands. I would love to see the heads exploding around the 5E Social Media presence if you tried to explain the original Class/Level "To Hit Tables" to them...

This is probably the best AND most entertaining explanation of Thac0 on the whole of KZread. Nice! 🗡️🛡️

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Thank You! It’s a concept that players with different learning styles will have “a-Ha!” moments based on how it’s presented. I’ve seen some explanations where I’m like “huh?” and others where I’m like “yes! That’s it.” I was going for the middle ground. There’s a few secrets I left out to keep things brief. Such as why I think it’s a “better” system as it pertains to game play etiquette. (Which I realize sounds quite pompous!) AAC is easier but is it better?

@DeadMarsh

Жыл бұрын

I’m a 5e fallout, and I also think thac0 is better! It gets your brain thinking in a different direction which is refreshing. (And you don’t have to convert the AC in older material if you wanna run those;which is a huge draw for me.) It’s a simple concept that I see people online giving over-complicated explanations for. Yours is the one I’ll be linking to other players lol. Id agree, your explanation strikes a great middle ground. Simple,effective, and delivered it like a true bard!

@wcwingchun1496

7 ай бұрын

agreed

Now: you pre-calculate your to-hit bonuses - roll a dice, add the bonus, and declare "13" ... so you hit someone with AC 13 or above Then: you pre-calculate your THAC0 - roll a dice, subtract the result from your THAC0, and declare 6 ... so you hit someone with AC 6 or below

A way I found that I think is simpler to understand is THAK0 - die roll = AC hit Example: fighter with THAC0 18 say he rolled 11 18 - 11 = hit AC 7 and up

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! Thank You for sharing! I wanted to do another video that was about 10 seconds long that just said: “To determine if you hit a monster, just add your attack roll and bonuses and tell the DM. It’s their job to figure it out.” 🤣 But being a SoloRPG channel, where we are both the GM and player, that would seem to miss the mark! The other reason I use the method in the video is that it is “self contained” in the sense that all of the math is done before the attack roll is made. (That to me is the ancient secret of the elders that might make THAC0 better than Ascending Armor Class.)

You’ve earned my subscription for that amazing intro THA C0 song, good sir! 😊

You are actually quite good at singing mate. Also thanks for this video, been playing some oldschool RPGs which use THATC0 and it has been...interesting.

I can't help but ponder the headache saved if they stuck with the level vs AC charts from OD&D...

An alternate way to do it is to add the AC to your roll. For example, using the stats in the this video, to hit an AC of 3, you would roll and add +3 and try to hit your THAC0 or higher. Example: You roll 13+2+1 (given the stats in this video), which is 16. Add the AC (+3) and the result is 19, which is equal to the THAC0 score in the video. This is much more intuitive than subtracting before the roll. And if the DM does know the THAC0 scores of the players, and the player announces 16, they would just add +3 and know it's a hit. Another example: Monster has AC of -2. Player has THAC0 of 15. Player's total roll is 19. 19 + -2 = 17. 17 is higher than their THAC0, so they hit.

The song was pretty good. It gave me massive Tenacious D vibes. I just got into B/X OSE so thanks helping explain this

If you don't, as a DM, wanna give the players the AC, then just do this: THACO - ROLL = AC hit. If you're playing 1st edition Advanced D&D, then use the even more elegant Attack Tables and see the real beauty in multiple 20's. 👍🤓 Love the Jack Black-esque song, by the way! 😊 You're not hardcore, unless you THACO hardcore!😅

The basis for AC and THAC0 values are the chances of a non-armor wearing fighting man's hitting another face to face in one round, which is 10 in 20 (50%) everything else is a plus or minus to this. Another trick is to add AC of the enemy to the d20 roll to see if you reach THAC0. E.g. roll d20, and add AC of 6, is it 19 or more? That's a hit. No subtraction is needed.

As any "Class" the First Class is the better. It's like a Podium. The best armor is in First Place, First Class, the HIGHEST place. The worst the armor, the lower class. You also can think of Titanic. First Class were in upper decks while Third Class were in lowest deck. You can even check the AD&D1e Dungeon Master Guide pag 73 (last paragraph): "Armor class below 10 is not possible except through cursed items. Armor class above 2 is easily possible due to magical bonuses and dexterity bonuses. To determine a “to hit” number not on the charts, project upwards by 1's "

The THACO ballad was cool

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Thank You! You just named that tune! It shall henceforth be known as “The Ballad of THAC0.”

I started playing D&D in 1e, where you had to look at separate tables, by class, to cross index AC with level to see what you needed for each roll. THAC0 was a brilliant innovation. It’s a profoundly simple calculation, and I’ve never understood the hate people have for it.

@gideonpepys

11 ай бұрын

I remember those tables. For my first ten years of play as DM, I was making up who hit or missed according to how dramatic I thought it would be. (We only had one d20 - with the numbers filled in with crayon so I was making all the dice rolls myself anyway, behind a ‘screen’ made from the expert box lid and base, interlocked. No minis either. It’s funny to hear that referred to as ‘theatre of the mind’ now. Quite a pretentious way to say “making shit up”. Fun times!)

For me, way back when in the late 80s, THACO was just a quick easy way to handle combat rolls without having to constantly reference the DM screen combat chart. The idea that THACO was somehow overcomplicated is kind of funny, we thought it was super easy, barely an inconvenience. Plus we had other things to worry about, like level drain, or vorpal weapons that behead on a 17...

Probably the best video on KZread explaining Thac0, nice and simple. Thank you, I did not want to scream at my phone due to an over complicated explanation

honestly, they're exactly the same. one just feels like putting your shoes on the wrong feet.

THAC0 is a rite of passage. Most of the people I have seen whining about how awful THAC0 was, never even played any of those editions. It's become a boogeyman

@Thagomizer

Жыл бұрын

Trying to understand why people hate THAC0 is harder than actually understanding THAC0. The gradations in 3e are the same numerical values anyway.

@EpicEmpires-pb7zv

Жыл бұрын

True. With THAC0 you had a list of the numbers you needed to roll to hit each armor class. This was a lot quicker and simpler than adding two numbers to a dice roll. The current d20 system in 5e is actually a bit slow and sucky for what it achieves.

@yippeethreeeight

11 ай бұрын

Yeah. It's really not a big deal. You use it for a couple of sessions, then you know it.

@notgoodatthis6065

6 ай бұрын

It's basically a running DnD player joke/meme. THAC0 being descending/low just confused people.

@joshuaspector8182

6 ай бұрын

I’ve used it. It was awful 😂

This video made me a subscriber. This was a fantastic and succinct explanation of something I never quite understood and now I feel like I could play with it. Thanks!

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

That makes me so happy to hear. The more you use it, the easier it gets. There is something very satisfying when using THAC0 as the system is “contained.” As soon as the dice stop rolling, you know exactly what happened and I enjoy that. Thank You for subscribing!

Stumbled into your channel while I was figuring things out using the scarlet heroes system for solo play in conjunction with THAC0 and some 1e/2e mechanics for the early AD&D adventure modules. In this video alone you definitely convinced a newbie like me the benefits and simplicity of using THAC0 something which I clearly misunderstood back in the days of baldur's gate and planescape torment video games.

I've watched this video three times by myself and a fourth time with an OSE GM before we played a session. THAC0 still makes no sense to us. If you're playing a game with Ascending AC and want to do the math beforehand, you could have each player fill out a table for it. But why? You do slightly less addition during a session and now you have to make space on a character sheet for a table. "When a player of THAC0 19 rolls a 13, I know immediately they've hit AC 6". So what, are they fighting something with AC 6? "Players says 'I hit AC 6' and I can look at the monster's AC and tell them if their attack hits or misses". Yeah, I can look at monster's AC in a game with Ascending and immediately know whether they've hit or not, too. "There's a bit of mystery and fog of war after a player declares they've hit AC 6 only to be disappointed". Yeah, they get this with Ascending AC, too.

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

I'm here to help! My OSE group currently plays with Ascending Armour Class. It's easy, it makes sense to them, and because of that, the overall experience at the table is better for everyone. Problem solved. This video was intended to explain how THAC0 works from the perspective of the referee and/or solo player playing both the role of referee and player. But for players, there is perhaps a better perspective and calculation. Here is how that process works: 1.) Roll Attack 2.) Add any modifiers 3.) Subtract your Attack roll from your THAC0 score 4.) This is the armour class you have hit A first-level fighter with a STR of 18 (+3 ATK Bonus) is attacking an Orc with a DAC of 6. 1.) The fighter rolls a d20 and gets 10. 2.) They add their STR modifier of +3 for a total of 13. 3.) They subtract their total Attack Roll (13) from their THAC0 (19), 19-13=6. 4.) The attack has hit Armour Class 6 (or 7,8,9 etc.) Let's try the same thing with a different Armour Class. A first-level fighter with a STR of 18 (+3 ATK Bonus) is attacking a Red Dragon with a DAC of -1 1.) The fighter rolls a d20 and gets 17. 2.) They add their STR modifier of +3 for a total of 20 (not a critical hit, but a 20 after modifiers.) 3.) They subtract their total Attack Roll (20) from their THAC0 (19), 19-20=-1 4.) The attack has hit Armour Class -1 (or 0,1,2 etc.) I hope this helps!

THAC0 isn't, wasn't and never will be "complicated". It simply requires a little bit more effort to understand if you've already learned another way. I played with a guy in the late 80's whose... shall we say... educational journey was foreshortened by absenteeism, who was close to being functionality innumerate and he could cope with it. Here's the easy way for 5E players to understand it. THAC0 is your target for all attacks... you roll the d20 modify the roll by the target AC (+10 to -10) and if the total is equal to or higher than your THAC0, you hit it. Your THAC0 varies by weapon, due to skill, attribute, magical bonus, buffs etc, so rarely will a character have the same d20 target for every weapon. With THAC0 you can write the individual target number in one little box next to the weapon, factoring in all that weapon's modifiers then roll the d20. It can actually speed things up. Example: Your character attacks with a sword, you have already made all the adjustments and calculated the sword's THAC0 as 15. You roll a d20 and get a 13, you ask the DM what AC is it? The DM replies, "It's... minus.." and before they finish you know you have missed. You know, because you are capable of remedial mental arithmetic, that 15 - 13 =2, so the targets AC needs to be 2 or worse for you to have hit with a 13... Back in those olden days RPGs grew out of war gaming, and the rules were complex, requiring all sorts of different probability curves and chances for things to play out. The idea of a game that essentially relied on a "Roll 1d20, Roll HIGH!" as the standard would have been immediately viewed as suspicious because the probability curves of rolling different and multiple dice for outcomes would have needed to be flattened. So, rolling percentile dice for skills as a Thief, rolling over a number with a d20 to attack, rolling below d20 for a saving throw, all grew out of those different rules for war games, all written by different people with different preferred methods of resolution. When people say that the modern rising AC is easier than THAC0, it's made to sound like THAC0 was difficult and needed simplifying. In over 40 years of continuing to play AD&D I have yet to come across a human being who sat down and played who struggled with THAC0 any more than a dozen or more generic aspects of playing a role playing game. It's actually a shame that people feel the need for combat to be as simple as its possible to get. Because if THAC0 is deemed a complex barrier to entry, games like Runequest/Mythras with its far superior combat system will forever remain behind a wall of imperative simplicity to those people.

@mpotter9944

11 ай бұрын

Great response.

Thank you. It's actually remarkably simple and you've explained perfectly.

Thanks for the video. I think is the best video on the internet about THAC0, it gave me that "a ha" moment. Not understanding THAC0 was the thing that was stopping me from DMing in OSE. Thanks to you, I'm afraid no more. Funny and clever. Now I'm a loyal suscriptor to your channel. Love your videos, man, you are a Real Bard. Keep up the great work and thanks a lot

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Always great to hear this video is helping people better understand THAC0. B/X, AD&D, and OSE. It just doesn’t get any better does it? So much fun. This video is definitely geared up for the solo player or DM. Because soloists and DMs have the luxury of being able to subtract AC from THAC0 whereas players do not! A lot of players have told me their favorite method is to simply subtract their roll after modifiers from their THAC0 score: 19 (THAC0) 14 (Roll after modifiers) 5 (Armour class hit) Thanks again and have fun DMing OSE!

Forget THACO...you, good sir are a Master Bard! That was very well sung, indeed!

Excellent singing

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Thank You! I’m a Bard IRL but I role play a Sorcerer on TV.

I dunno... I played back in 1983 with Moldvay, THAC0. Played many systems from many companies , some obscure some completely gone. Some used a chart ... Marvel Superheroes... Its all about the same in my opinion, just different. I have to stop think for a moment to do THAC0 or reference a table now so I like ascending armor class. None is better than any other, use it and it becomes second nature. In my opinion whatever system you are using, it is the best at that moment, cause at least you are playing. :D

I actually made THAC0 for 5E. Your starting THAC0 score is 20 minus your PB then minus enemy AC when attacking for target number. AC Conversions 19 = 0 18 = 1 17 = 2 16 = 3 15 = 4 14 = 5 13 = 6 12 = 7 11 = 8 10 = 9 Only major change for balance is making basic shields -1 to AC.

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Seems legit! The super secret brilliant genius of THAC0 is that all of the math is done before the roll. The reason I like that, or why it matters, is that as soon as the dice stops rolling. Done. I know instantly if it’s a hit or a miss. Different strokes for different folks.

I imagined your opening song with Ronny James Dio's voice.

I started on BX and did the brunt on my gaming in AD&D. It never occurred to us that THACo was hard.

This video is concise and very well made. Now I can understand how to play Baldur’s Gate 1 a little better. Thank you!

@EpicSolo

11 ай бұрын

Thank You. You’re welcome. The greatest PCRPG ever created!

I have searching for a while for a good video to share with players about to play OSE. You knocked it out of the park! Came for the info, stayed for the ballad. /like /subscribe

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Thank You! Something that helps my players after they understand how THAC0 works, is to share the technique of subtracting their roll+modifiers from their THAC0 score to determine what AC they hit. Say they roll a 15+1=16 and their THAC0 is 19. 19-16 is 3 “I hit armor class 3” This has been very helpful for players if they aren’t using the attack matrix / subtracting armor class from their THAC0 as mentioned in the video. This video was intended more for the DM and solo player as we know the monsters AC and need to determine what hits what. Players can just get by with either an attack matrix as recommended by OSE rules or by subtracting roll+modifiers from their THAC0. I hope this helps! Happy gaming to you and your players!

Thac0 is even easier than ascending AC. From the PC's POV, there is no number crunching involved. As you said, the players need to tell the DM what ac they hit. Any temporary adjustments for AC should be done on the DM's side. Players adding or subtracting anything during combat is a waste of time.

02:56 Or just add the target's AC to the roll and retain THAC0 as the target number! Treat a +ve AC as a bonus, and a -ve AC as a penalty. It was usually the DM that did that final addition/subtraction for the players so they didn't get to know the target's DC. Could also subtract the roll from THAC0 to give the AC hit, but subtraction seems to be hard for some people!

@Agell

Жыл бұрын

This is the way.

It’s easy: THAC0 - Die Roll = Armor Class Hit

@EpicSolo - just found your channel recently, but have to say sometimes you seem to channel Jack Black. It's uncanny!

Another thing to bear in mind before ad&d 2nd edition the normal rule was to have a to hit roll ribbon, THAC0 became an abstraction for DMs and statblocks that was initially an optional rule. Which then became the normal to hit tracking system.

I think we may have found the long lost 3rd member of Tenacious D. 🤔

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Yyyeeeas! I’m the one that keeps the “sidehatch” stocked. Also responsible for changing the strings, while hiding in the wings, but you don’t applaud for me!

Subscribed due to singing intro. Sold

The way we do it is the player rolls and adds all of their mods and gives the DM their total. The DM then /adds/ the targets AC if it equals or exceeds the players THACO score it hits!

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

One of the subtleties of THAC0 is the DMs role in adjudicating the attack sequence. That’s part of the job description! All I need to know is the players THACO score and what their roll is after modifiers. I’ll take care of the rest! You could play an entire campaign not knowing how THAC0 “worked” as a player and have an awesome time!

I like how OSE provides both accending and descending AC! That's all I got..on that.🤤

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

It is good to have options!

We use OSE for our home game with my six year old son. He only understands THAC0 and descending AC. I was trying to explain that modern D&D uses BAB and AAC. He totally had a hard time trying to grasp it. I guess it just depends on what you were taught and are used to.

No one mentioning your epic vocals though

I am playing old school essentials using ascending armour, mainly because I am a new DM, with all new players, so I prefer the ascending system for now. I like how the ascending system works similarly to rpg videogames, everybody can understand it from their video gaming experiences without any explanation :) One day I will run a game using thac0 once everyone is more confident with the other systems.

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Most importantly, how much fun is Old School Essentials!? Would love to hear what your group is running. Thanks for checking out the video!

@joel6376

Жыл бұрын

I am a new DM who is running ascending but will be switching to THAC0 next campaign. This explanation is excellent.

THAC0 is more elegant and faster than adding two different numbers to a dice roll. Here's something that's even more trippy. If you convert to a roll under system instead of a roll over then your chance to hit for level 1-3 is AC+2. D&D Basic was so close to a much more elegant system.

This was helpful thanks.

@EpicSolo

6 ай бұрын

You’re welcome. Glad it was helpful!

I am getting ready to run an OSR game on Roll20

I started playing in 83 and we used thaco not the to hit chart. We did it all in our head but didn't really like it. Even though I could do it all quickly in my head, to this day thinking about thaco is like looking at a picture of Gary's junk (I'm just not interested). AAC is a much cleaner way to go.

subbed just because of your angelic voice.

Well explained thanks! 🌮

I like when RPG video hosts sing to me.

Gotta be the #1 THAC0 song of all time

Great link to send to the ppl who think they are the ultimate D&D players of all time cause they've played a ton of 5th. lol, come at me after AD&D and 3.5!

I like it conceptually

Best side of THAC0 is, different classes haa different THAC0 progress. Later systems are lame on the side. 6 level fighter and wizard hits with same modifiers in 5e. If they don't have different strength mods it looks fricking funny.

THAC0 - target AC = target roll to d20. Player rolls, adjusts for modifiers and informs DM of results. Done. Unless you DM like me and never tell PCs what the targets AC is. Then the players roll, adjust for modifiers and I do the math telling them if they hit or not. If they hit then they roll for damage.

Making THAC0 easy: d20 + Bonuses + target Armor Class >= THAC0 is a hit. This also illustrates very clearly why lower AC is better.

Frankly, I prefer active attack and parry over either system the DC and the THACO. Firstly because the system I learned with has that system and secondly because it does not depend on the enemy in any form. My example is for a below or equal system. That combat system works by the characters having a base attack value that might be modified by some factors but that is it. So if I have an attack value of 13 all I need to do is roll below or equal to 13 and I have hit my target. BUT said target may parry that attack, thus deflecting or blocking the blow. This obviously is done via a parry value. Say, i.e. 10. The attacker rolls 12 and has potentially hit the target, BUT the target rolls a 10 for his parry and blocks the attack. Had the target not been parried, with a roll of 11 damage would be rolled and armour values would be applied... I like this system better because it is more simulative of "real" combat, it gives the defender the feeling of they can actively do something etc. Also it makes for a great tool describing combat. However, it is an extremely different view on combat, makes for a much more duel-oriented approach and requires much more roleplaying by the players as opposed to D&D-style combat that is often reminiscent of its wargame background. As I said, a very different approach.

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Some great insight here on an interesting and dynamic example of a combat system. Good Stuff! Travis Miller, and OSR philosopher, has a video regarding “closed” vs “open” systems of TTRPGs. Your example is a great illustration of applying “open” systems to “closed” combat systems and how it can make for a dynamic combat experience that encourages good role play.

This is all predicated on belief that D&D rules (even modern rules) are the best out there. I was never one of those guys. It stems from never playing D&D as a kid because we started in Palladium Books where it was an opposed roll. Both the player and the GM roll 1D20, add their skill bonus, and defenders win ties. Armor was treated as additional hit points, but a high enough roll would bypass it anyways.

I know many people who have adopted the ascending AC system into their Old School games.

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. I use DAC when playing solo and here on the channel. With our OSE group, we’ve moved on to AAC. I started with DAC back in the 80s and enjoy it but this group, prior to OSE, had never used DAC. They wanted learn it and they did great! Then, upon leveling up, I asked them, “would you rather use AAC going forward?” And they said “YAS!” And so now we are using AAC which is great if for no other reason than the table enjoys it. Both systems have their comparative subjective upsides. It is a good thing to know both, and then choose what you or your table enjoys.

I don't have a great grasp on THAC0 yet, but it appears that in OSE's conversion table, their ascending conversion is off by one. I'm likely wrong about this, but how am I wrong? I'm trying to understand this better.

Tenacious D vibes nuff said

It was so strange for me when Armor Class stated to to ascend and a low AC wasn't what you wanted anymore. I still think that they old system was cooler, but I have to admit that the new system is much more practical.

@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo

Жыл бұрын

Since 2000's there is no Armor Class, but Armor Amount

Yeeessss! Thanks for this info!

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

You're welcome! I must now go into hiding thus having revealed the ancient secrets of the elders... It is unclear if I have gained their favor or drawn their ire.

Or you could roll a d20 add modifiers and the target's AC if the result equals or exceeds their THAC0 that works too. If yer THAC0 is 19 and the targets AC is 6. Adding 6 to the Die roll to try to get a 19 is the same as subtracting 6 from 19 and trying to make a 13 with yer d20 roll.

So, I feel like doing subtraction at the table is kinda unnecessary. When I ran a game of 2nd Edition D&D (for a group of players brought up in a post 3rd edition world) I had everyone pre-calculate all of their bonuses into an adjusted THAC0. Then, when rolling, they just add the opponents AC to their roll. How do they know an opponent's AC? Well, I told them. After all, for humanoid creatures it should be obvious based on the armor they are wearing. For non-humanoids, I'd maybe make them run the first round blind. The benefit is that if they ever rolled their THAC0 or better, no math was necessary, we could just move on. (I mean, unless an enemy had a negative AC, but that was pretty rare)

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Where I’m at with THAC0: When I play solo, I use THAC0. As a DM and player it’s a great self contained system that I enjoy playing with. When I play with a group, we use AAC. The group that I currently play OSE with started with THAC0 and it evolved into AAC because they enjoy the game more. It’s that simple. Even if tables are no longer using THAC0, it’s great to have an understanding of DAC and the evolution and history of the game.

@Galanthos

Жыл бұрын

@@EpicSolo Makes sense! I've definitely compromised on personally favored systems or rules to keep a table happy.

THAC0 just adds one extra and innecessary calculation, take your AC and substract it to 19, instead of just rolling to hit AC directly.

Simple Formula. Roll d20 + modifiers + target's AC get the THAC0 or greater to Hit.

The confusion over thac0 is so weird. Never understood why old DMs tried some convoluted math to make AC the target number. New D&D: d20 + modifiers vs AC Old D&D: d20 + AC vs modified thac0 Exact same equation with two parts swapped. AC in old D&D was never a target number and was never meant to be. Why so many people tried to force it to be was so weird. Like yeah you can do it but the math gets way harder to figure out on the fly. And in either case the DM has to tell you the target's armor class, or else you have to add another step into the resolution of every to hit roll.

THAC0-roll=AC hit 20-thac0+roll=20-AC Turning thac0 to d20 Using thac0 if the DM gives you their AC or wants to do this calculation Thac0-AC=die roll

Just figure out the math beforehand and then write out the numbers on a chart for your character. Boom, no more math.

So simple a middle school kid can do it ! I did

After watching this video, two things occur to me. 1) This was the best explanation of THAC0 I've ever seen. Thank you. 2) I still don't see any empirical reason a group would chose to use THAC0 instead of AAC. THAC0 is a more complex way to get to the exact same point... it just baffles me that anyone would chose to use it for anything other than nostalgic purposes. (If that's you and your group, please know I mean no offense and I'm stoked you have this option... but I still don't get it.)

@slydoorkeeper4783

Жыл бұрын

I've started playing 2e recently and while I agree that AAC is easier, I hate how so many people act like THAC0 is something you need eldritch knowledge to understand. I think maybe the biggest boon is seeing who is willing to read and understand the game. Honestly, I'm having "more trouble" with 3/2 attacks per turn than I do with THAC0.

@MrBsberzerker

Жыл бұрын

There are a few reasons that I personally prefer THAC0. 1 It makes it slightly harder for players to know the monsters AC which means they're more immersed instead of focusing on numbers. So less bad meta gaming and min maxing. 2 It is more complicated, bare with me on this one. Yes AAC is easier that is certainly true but when things are easy they attract lazy people. If you have to figure out slightly unintuitive math that means you will have to be passionate enough to figure it out and play. I think some people are in this hobby but don't want to put effort in and are entitled. 3 streamlined combat(for the GM or referee), again bare with me. So you won't know this unless you try running old school D&D(I highly recommend BX cause it's the best edition) but when using THAC0 and the attack matrix all monsters are on one table. Depending on the HD(Hit Die) of the monster you know what the monster needs to hit the players whereas in modern systems monsters have who have multiple attacks all have their own bonuses to jungle here is the stat block of an Orc (AC 6, HD 1, HP 4, #AT 1, D1-6, MV(40), Save F1, ML 6) that is everything you need to know to run it which is easier and gives more time to do other things or more combat. Yes you can still convert to AAC and use this sure but if like me you like old modules you will need to put in work to do that but that's up to you. Conclusion: Most old school systems in isolation seem odd or confusing at first especially when you compare them in isolation to modern systems but when you try them in tandem with all the other systems in the game it ends up making a lot more sense and works well. Modern D&D combat is very slow and cumbersome to the point that a combat that takes about 1hr in modern can have twice the number of combatants but be resolved in 15min or less, it's amazing. So if you want to understand old school rules you need to get the full context and then it makes sense if you want to check it out but I understand if you just want to stick with what you like and are used too.

@pez5767

Жыл бұрын

I find it interesting that the two responses to my original comment point out a benefit of THAC0 is to keep away players who "aren't willing to do the work". I'm sorry, but if your argument is that THAC0 is a good mechanic because it prevents people from wanting to play the game... Well, we seem to enjoy the game for very different reasons. ✌️ and love.

@MrBsberzerker

Жыл бұрын

@@pez5767 So you want to play with cheaters who look up the stats of the monsters and are pretty much just playing a numbers game? There are people I've played with who should not be playing this game because they are lazy, entitled, manipulative, narcissists. If using a system that lets me identify narcissists and cheaters or prevents them from wanting to play then I see that as a good thing. The only people against gatekeeping are narcissists that deserve to be kept out.

@slydoorkeeper4783

Жыл бұрын

@@MrBsberzerker To add onto the lazy player point, I've seen that if people aren't willing to learn a rather basic, commonly used mechanic, then they probably aren't going to be involved with the game much outside of the few elements where there isn't much game to be had. For example, the people im talking about are the people who complain about THAC0, while never even bothering to look at it, are the same people who complain about combat in dnd 5e being too hard to understand and just want to role play. Bearing in mind going by 5e's rules kit, its like 90% combat, and like 10% other. So they just want to focus on 10% of a game, in which I typically just tell them to play a more RP focused system.

Holy Baldurs Gate!

If you are going to do AAC should you start at 11 for unarmored? Desending starts at 9, 20-9 = 11. It seems that Thaco is better than AAC because it takes 1 less to hit compared to AAC

@EpicSolo

11 ай бұрын

OSE, and most retro clones that utilize AAC, are consistent with the standard 10 AC for an unarmored character. It becomes a relative scale because it is contingent upon an attack bonus. A character with a THAC0 score of 19 would need to roll a 10 to hit (base) armour class 9. 19 (THAC0) -9 (DAC) =10 (Target to hit AC) A character with an Attack Bonus of 0 would need to roll a 10 to hit (base) armour class 10. 0 (Attack Bonus) 10 (roll) =10 (Target to hit AC) I hope this helps!

@jaybakata5566

11 ай бұрын

@@EpicSolo Nope, still don't get it. I understand and get THACO, but when ose went with aac as an option I don't understand why unarmored is 10 instead of 11. Thanks for the reply.

Do you always spit bars on this channel because jeez I just came to find out about thac0

I saw this video before this video was even posted 💪😎

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Now THIS is some Old-School Grognard secret divination magic I know nothing about!

@Grognard-Solo-Gaming

Жыл бұрын

@@EpicSolo Haha, if you didn’t take it down and repost it, YT had a major hiccup, because it disappeared from my feed for quite a while 😂

Okay, seems simple enough

Lolz if already knew what it meant does that make me old??? 😊

" MaThS bE hArD "

GR8 video! That being said do not miss THACO. You forgot to mention the weapon modifiers as put forth in Unearthed Arcana....ugh did I mention I don't miss THACO?

AD&D Players Handbook, 1978, page36, AC 10 is no armour. Not 9.

I like descending AC and the rules in BX but adding THAC0 into OSE is such a bad decision and makes the whole thing harder to use and understand. Just found your channel, good stuff

Thac0 is so much more fun

To Hit Armorr Class 0(Zero)

Great video and song, but after playing a game with ThAC0 I will never understand the appeal. The system felt assbackwards and frustrating to communicate. The mystique didn’t make up for ascending armor’s practicality.

🌮…the “h” is silent

Planning a duet with Jack Black?

Or you could keep 19 as your target number. Roll d20 + modifiers + 6 = or greater than 19 you hit. Rolling a d20 + 6 to get 19 is the same as rolling a d20 to get 13 after you subtracted 6 from 19. THAC0 is easy. I will never return to Ascending AC again. OSR 4 life baby.

It really doesn't seem any easier than 5e, in terms of knowing when things hit or not. Thac0 is definitely less intuitive. In 5e you can easily know what you're hitting by knowing the roll, to hit mods, and the creature's AC. I'm not sure where the "benefit" of using Thac0 comes from...?

I kinda understand still a bit odd

@grimm516

10 ай бұрын

Honestly, I just find it more complicated then it needs to be for what it accomplishs. So one question I have dose that mean if you do have one of the 2 number ie thaco or ac you basically can't determine the to hit ?

It was always arse-backwards, -10 AC anyone?

Wait a second, are you Jack Black? 😳

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

Sadly I am not… Although! I’m a former music teacher that used to teach kids how to ROCK so I could pay the legend of the rent (which was way hardcore!).

@bencorey5340

Жыл бұрын

@@EpicSolo Rock on! That rent is way hardcore.

although i agree thac0 was an interesting concept design, my pea brain doesnt like it so i just do ascending

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

My table has switched to AAC when playing OSE Advanced. It’s good to understand the roots of AAC and compare it to DAC. When I play solo, I use DAC and THAC0. When I DM for my group we use AAC. Win/win.

It really isn't difficult.

Thac0 always bothered me as you calculated downwards, while other numbers still went upwards. This is a terrible way to make a rule based system, do all your calculations the same way people! Oh, and another thing to keep in mind while I am here: The +10 that is part of the current D20 calculations for Armour Class is just Thac0 in disguise....

@EpicSolo

Жыл бұрын

“AAC base 10 is just THAC0 in disguise.” Love it. You’re not wrong!

In Old aschool DnD, Armor class' could be Negative.

Not a bad bad song. Hated THACO.

THACO is outdated and you should move on often people who think Thaco is better than the current version are talking out there ass remember most characters in second edition ad&d couldn't even hit AC 5 never mind 0 the new system of 5E allows anyone the chance to hit anything second edition was crap

@EpicSolo

8 ай бұрын

Your obviously not a viewer of the adventure episodes! The vast majority of the adventure episodes / solo plays utilize ascending armor class. My first introduction to The Grand Game was with THAC0 and while there is admittedly some nostalgia associated with, my current tables utilize Ascending Armor Class. We prefer it to THAC0. For those interested in THAC0 and the history of the the game, the video does serve a purpose in explaining what THAC0 is and how it works.

Your eyes is weird. Why? I can't focus on what you are saying. I'm just looking at your eyes!