Please like this video if you want to see more collaboration videos like this. SUBSCRIBE!

Okay you can do a shootout, MSB vs lampizator dac vs Playback Designs vs analog 👍🏼In Jay’s system

@chipsnmydip

Жыл бұрын

You could throw in Aries Cerat. If one of those can't get close to analog, then nothing will.

Man this feels like a therapist visit :) Jay the psychiatrist, Mikey the patient. Mikey brought up some great points about the differences,

@Smood47

Жыл бұрын

More like Mikey the master and Jay the student

You know I love Mikey but he just seems to have issue with any other rig outside of his own that is expensive. He doesn't mind giving kudos to lesser expensive rigs but I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that Jay's rig is something we would all be happy with. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm wrong a lot.

Thank you for conducting and reporting on this comparison, Jay and Mike! With warmest regards, Ron Resnick

Hello, the record Rumours by Fleetwood Mac was recorded in 1976. the original recording in the studio is analog, so there is no conversion to create a vinyl LP. To create the digital files of the song you need to convert the original analog recording to digital and that is when the "damage" is done.

If my record collection was not lost in an accident I would still have a record player, however I am happy with current streamining services and I am not up for hunting down the recods to re built my collection. I had a loss and I learned to accept it !

In my system vinyl beats digital. Also I grew up with vinyl so I really enjoy the process of collecting, caring for and playing it.

@Hypofx

Жыл бұрын

same here :) more personal

@carlosoliveira-rc2xt

Жыл бұрын

In every cost no object system, vinyl wins.

@nirodha35

Жыл бұрын

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt nope

Wow Jay I am so impressed! Look at you now spreading the analog gospel! Damn. This I never EVER imagined. Welcome brother. Welcome to my world!

@glenncurry3041

Жыл бұрын

I know right? He had the guts to try it and to admit it!

@davewin1792

Жыл бұрын

@@glenncurry3041 Jays honesty is some of his greatest strengths.

@glenncurry3041

Жыл бұрын

@@davewin1792 It was fun to watch him walk down the garden path and admit it along the way!

2 different approach to Audio High end, I feel more close to Mikey but in case of deep pocket, also the Jay's system is very very interesting.

And now the very deep rabbit hole of sourcing and paying for quality vinyl.

@joemehalic4069

Жыл бұрын

On the other hand, procuring SACD's is not cheap either. I prefer the SACD over a "regular" CD by far. Many unopened SACD's go for $50-$75. The cost of a new LP can actually be lower than the same SACD.

Have Mikey bring his Playback Design gear to the Lab to compare against the Chronos

Jay when can we expect to see a reel to reel with master tapes? Supposedly the best source.

Would love to see Mikey bring the Playback Designs DAC to your setup and compare! Keep it up Jay!

A Lampizator Horizon may be the closest to vinyl that I heard....but it is still not vinyl. If you don't mind cleaning records and maintaining a record collection that vinyl is the way to go. For me collecting the records is a big part of the fun.

@dennishenderson7250

Жыл бұрын

I agree that the closest DAC to vinyl is the Lampizator Horizon.

@Random-kq4pz

Жыл бұрын

All the tubes in the Horizon really help tame digital issues.

@andreaswannerwall798

Жыл бұрын

Its gr8 to build a cool vinyl collection of rare Pieces

Looks like Jay needs to try the Playback Designs

Interesting comparisong. It shows how wonderfull engaging vinyl still can be despite a competing trillon costing digitial front end…

Try the Lampizator Horizon Dac...

It also comes down to the system matching. Jay's Wilson's are possibly analytical and his record playback brings some naturalness/warmth to his system.

@2fastdriving

Жыл бұрын

I can assure you that no Wilson is analytical

Not an MSB fan either. Agree with Mikey. The Esoteric is much better imo.

@markw7303

Жыл бұрын

Msb is totally acceptable 10years ago and a quarter the price .

Two fun crazy entertaining audiophiles - need no introduction! These guys are making Michael Fremer happy - Vinyl makes the best natural sounding music! Organic and texture. Kronos Turntable but what price $$$$$?

Tale of two listening perspectives. Appreciate both perspectives. Thanks Mikey and Jay!

Jay, I'm using the Linn lp12 turntable with a Troika cartridge and I don't know if a DAC can touch it?

These two guys have become some of the most interesting dudes to watch.

What happened it just ended! I’d like to see y’all compare the playback design, and transport on jays rig, since it is more analytical. Reminds me of two champions, dodging the fight everyone wants to see lol! So do a home @ home series!

The real key for me is Listening Fatigue, taking that edge off really helps. Slam is nice but not all night if you know what I’m saying. 😎

Jay you're right about digital v vinyl , the dac can't do what vinyl can do.

OCD Mikey being diplomatic! Who would have thought it possible?😂😂

Mikey has the BEST shit just ask him.

@chipsnmydip

Жыл бұрын

Ha!

Tried to go all digital for a long time, was never happy with it. It all came into place playing vinyl records. My digital setup is...very...expensive..and I still use it for modern music and for convenience, and it sounds good. But it is amazing how well vinyl scales with higher end system, even a relatively modest vinyl and riaa setup.

Congrats on 18 K

Thank You Jay. I'm a big Mikey Fan that is ready to abandon my vinyl for the May Dac. I've been weighing what I'm losing in fidelity to what I'll gain in convenience. this is my favorite video ever. Thanks again.

@jaysaudiolab

Жыл бұрын

My pleasure

I have both a streamer as well as turntable, which both go into a digital preamp with room correction. ie. Everything is played through digital. The vinyl path is much longer in that it has a tube phono stage and therefore extra cable, and then an ADC within the digital preamp. The turntable sounds much better with music from the 80's. I even prefer to buy used records compared to the streaming versions. However, for the new stuff, and Adele would fit into the new stuff, I am quite happy streaming. The way I see it, the quality of ADCs back in the 90s, combined with the goal of making money in the music industry, is that a conversion to digital was not that good. No matter how good a DAC you have, it cannot correct the bad conversion (ie. garbage in, garbage out).

It's well known that we humans respond well to the upper bass range. If the CD is too flat (and it _is_ a better means of reproducing the full frequency range) then use a DSP to shape the response to be more like your vinyl setup.

I don't listen to digital anymore there is so much air and dimensional depth and substance to the music.

Love Mikey and respect his opinion

I feel like analog is more tuned to what my ears like to hear. That being said, I listen to digital more because it's more convenient and I have Qobuz's library. I save the records for serious listening.

Congrats to Mike for his honesty.

One thing. Streaming is never as equal in quality than if you put the same digital album played frome a hifi digital server like a Innuos or Aurender. When it is played from those servers and send to the DAC, it is much much better than streaming. And it sound more like Dan vynil impression.

@labo66

Жыл бұрын

At least, ilt is what I ear frome my own system and those of my friends.

@chipsnmydip

Жыл бұрын

True. Stored files, uncompressed are best. DSD is even better when possible.

Organic is the word you're looking for. Vinyl is closer to reality.

The truth is Jay's system, until he purchased a turntable, has always been optimized for digital. That Jay found vinyl to be superior in his system, since he merely inserted the Kronos into his rig, surprised me since he's yet to attempt to optimize his system for vinyl. Jay of course is right, there is no DAC that can replicate the air, the body, the real world dynamics, the color, the realistic timbres, and that luminous midrange that vinyl gives.

I own a modest vinyl rig and the sound coming from it, at its best, is better than digital at its best. To give some reference, the cartridge is a Sumiko blue point n°2

Bring on the playback design for a face to face match against vinyl

I am fully invested in digital, and not willing to go down the rabbit hole of repurchasing all of my media on vinyl. Potential DACs that fill in that range present in vinyl: Playback Designs Edelweiss DAC and the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC.

Jay, It depends also if the vinyl lp used a digital step and which ones in the vinyl process.

@glenncurry3041

Жыл бұрын

Yes why bother if the source is digital in the first place.

Also do not forget a thing called loudness wars and also volume normalizing for radio broadcast, this makes it more artificial, less breathing in the music.

You need to try the lampizator horizon dac in your rig. Interesting to see how close to your analog that would be?

Owning a Clearaudio Ovation with Goldfinger and the Playback Designs Dac/Transport I would say it depends on the Record and how it was recorded. A really great CD/SACD/File does sound so great over the Playback Designs DAC/Transport that you would say "it doesn´t get any better". With mostly newer records which were done digital I would say the Playback Designs is king. BUT there are so many great records which were done analog so I would say if that record was done well and is in good condition, the Vinyl should sound better. So my music faves are from the 70s till end of 80s + Guns & Roses from the early 90s, mostly never totally silent songs so Vinyl is my prefered source

No wrong or right or better than the other. Mikey you have already stated what you like and don't about the formats. You dig streaming. Great. I'm not a fan of streaming. Where I was able to listen to high quality streaming for a long period(one afternoon and one evening in a comfortable environment), the thing that bothered me the most about streaming was that maybe 0ne out of ten-fifteen cuts sound good on a streaming system. When it's good, it's actually (to me) great, as good as anything I've ever heard, as enjoyable as anything that I have ever listened to. I prefer having my own server with rips that I know of high quality and for the most part from Lp's. That's right, Lp's. I have directly compared the record to 24/192 digitized copies and when done correctly sound marvelous, to the point that I would rarely play the record anymore. When the rips are done with no music playing in the room, they're even better. Heard the difference. Records and even cd's have a certain esthetic, warmth, cover art that I just plain like better. Streaming for the most part leaves me feeling cold. But I'm a fan of both digital and vinyl and frankly as I get older, digital is more of my go to source. But when the mood strikes, playing lp after lp from a collection that I started building since the early seventies floats my boat. And honestly most originals are better than the audiophile Lp's that seem to get reissued every few years and audiophile owners argue ad nauseum which pressing is better. I just don't care that much. Just listen to a stereo 1958 RCA s/d 1S stamper( boy did that sound audiophiley!) in decent shape of any of the great classical recordings and compare it to the latest audiophile release, pressed on superior vinyl but cut from a tape that has sixty-five years of fade on it. If you own a nice rig, surface noise should not be a problem. But if you're one of those whiny bit@@es, that can only to pristine surfaces, well then you care less about the music. You can always buy a DeGritter.

Jay is right!

I'd be really interested in hearing the Playback Designs. From what I understand of the design, it should have the fewest digital artifacts, but maybe absolute performance lower than Select II. Andreas Koch definitely has cred. I also wonder of the new filters in the Digital Director can compare to Playback, or even EMM which have more elaborate designs and filter is a key part of the sound.

It is all about the quality of the source in audio. There are over 400 different vinyl pressings of the Rumours album on Discogs. Just because they are vinyl doesn’t mean they will all sound good. The 45 RPM copy of Rumours that Jay has looks like the Kevin Gray/Steve Hoffman mastered copy. It is supposedly cut from the original master tapes. It sounds really good. Part of the vinyl hobby for some people is looking for the best sounding pressing of a specific record. Really good sounding record pressings are more valuable to those people than their gear because the gear is much easier to replace.

I have found that the order of quality goes like this : 1) master tapes and or high def master records 2) reel to reel tape 3) 45 rpm records 4) direct to disk records 5) records 6) CD 7) streaming ........ there are exceptions and room for debate but this order is pretty accurate.

Lol, Mikey would pick a radio over Jay's analytical rig, just to tone it down.

Try the audio note dac fifth element dac. That digital done the absolute best. It best a ton of very expensive turntable setups

I am using a Naim ND555 with twin DR555 power supplies - to me the classic ladder dac and Naim's analogue stages - is very very close to analogue in terms of wholeness and presentation..... Jay I would love you to try it in your system.... Also you need the absolute best power supplies if you are using Roon... Sean Jacobs power supplies are amazing and make a huge difference...a game changer. As usual great youtube shows Jay keep it going...big guy!

MSB (I have heard the Select 2)has always been analytical and so is the sonic signature of the Wilson. Together, they emphasise this quality even more. I have used a Playback design DAC and I agree it has a more 'musical' quality. It would be worth the effort to get the PBD and play it in Jay's system.

Records always more engaging

@davidcross890

Жыл бұрын

Many times can be, but, with absolute state of the art PROPERLY EXECUTED system circuits and design and hookup, not so clear cut a winner

@rx4unyc

Жыл бұрын

@@davidcross890 tubes forgive

@davidcross890

Жыл бұрын

@@rx4unyc if your gear is very top of extreme range which my systems are, the trait of forgiving that some tubes have is completely undesirable

I have a Rega Isis cd player and it’s like listening to analog.

It is true, tape is best, and DSD can very closely capture it, almost totally transparent.

Vinyl is smoother than digital 20.7s proof everything Unwilling to go vinyl expense Great analytic discussion, guys,

With both you can travel from a to b but the journey is completely different. Same is for vinyl and digital.

Of course the vinyl is better. Especially on those analytical speakers the vinyl surely makes it sound much smoother natural.

5:10 a dac that doesn't bring colour? Have you tried any tube dacs? Get high end lampi or abbas or aries cerat

My first comment on yt ever :) Try Horizon We tested Vivaldi, Apex with a clock, Select, emmlabs top one XVX Ypsilon Hyperion, Taiko, Top cables by Transparent, Tara, Stealth, all top models Horizon was reeeaaaly close, or almost indistinguishable (subject to quality of record) to TechDas One Premium, SAT 12 inch and SAT 9 inch, Etsuro Urushi Gold and Lyra Atlas CH Precision P1/X1 Horizon was better as preamp than silver Ypsilon That is the system of my father in law, all bought with real $$ c 1m spent, no gifts, etc, we are not a dealer My system is more modest but we have a lot of 5digit and 6digit units ) A lot of experience and listening

I want both.

Beginning of the chain - - coils & magnets vs electronic conversion of bits - - imo, they're both excellent although coils and magnets, especially when implemented exactingly, may have an edge cause they've been around so much longer - but, at least imho, that's the difference, not the media itself, that is, a plastic record vs a digital file - although at lower levels of investment money, the preference may well swing more towards a DAC (bang for the buck). Personally, I've got to have both - love 'em both for different reasons and hope I never have to live with just one or the other. And yeah, if possible, please bring on the PD, I'd love to hear Mike's DAC in Jay's system.

Hey Jay I notice you have what looks like an early production Kronos Pro. There have been lots of upgrades (large and small) over the years which significantly (very audible) improve the sound of the table. If you keep the Pro I would look into getting the SCPS and new tonearm for it you will not regret either of those purchases.

OCD will this change your mind if you don’t have vinyl to buy new vinyl?

You gotta do more than one take and one album

In my system digital (cds) via old Philips TDA dacs is in general on par with analogue via vinyl records. Depends how good the mastering is. My needle drops in 24/176.4, downsampled to redbook, are equaly musical as direct playing the vinyl without the cracks and pops, which is amazing.

I agree with Jay. Streaming is the weak link. CD's sound better when played back from a transport and a DAC that converts to DSD.

Maybe if you had tried Qobuz hi-res files? I made a comparison on tidal vs Qobuz and it was like digital vs analog almost

@klepp19

Жыл бұрын

I really like Qobuz. Had it for a week. Don't have a decent vinyl rig to compare the album stream of "Synchronicity" The Police.

@chipsnmydip

Жыл бұрын

There are a few ways to minimize digital sound and one is using stored uncompressed AIFF or WAV files and DSD is even better. Getting rid of grounding noise too.

I have a very uneven system. Modified Rega P3/Hana SL for Vinyl and Linn Selekt as a streamer (1 to 4 cost comparison), with Accuphase amplification and Wilson Audio Sabrina X, the Rega is superior, or I like it the most, and I do not see them evening out.

Vinyl beats PCM digital in almost ever case for me. Now if you bring DSD 2-4x into the picture it gets allot closer. The issue is there is not enough DSD4x or even 2x content to make that viable. Master tape has the same issue with not enough content. Hence why vinyl wins out for me.

@chipsnmydip

Жыл бұрын

"Master tape" is also 2nd generation at best, and more likely 3rd or 4th. DSD can capture off the original master.

Jay, lleva tu tocadiscos al estudio de Mikey para un segundo round!!!!😊

Oh... How about recording the output of your turntable directly to Mikey's DSD recorder. Will it sound identical? Will it capture the magic of the Chronos?

I had a $30k vinyl set up. Yeah, I do agree vinyl was a little more pleasant to listen to, buuuutt, the "convenience of digital by far outweighs the benefits of vinyl for overall listening experience. This is a personal preference. To each their own.

Very interesting discussion! Love it!😍

I have found that LPs recorded from analog sound better than digital that was made from the analog. LPs made from recordings initially made in digital sound better. Even better are native digital where the playback is as recorded.

MSB select to a tube pre-amp to Class A monos would do the trick in sounding richer and fuller. I know, that's my set up, and I listened to Rumors on Vinyl from 1977- 2001 on completely analog system. Premium dac, premium tube pre, class A monos will deliver more micro details, yet rich and full midrange and bass than a strictly analog vinyl system, or turntable to solid state electronics.

Yes Jay. Get a Playback designs DAC for comparison. I have the Edelweiss MPD-6 dac w/streamer. When played directly into my amps the sound is glorious!. I have a decent vinyl rig(VPI Signature, Cadenza Bronze, MW ph-9.0x) and the PB playing DSD 256 files definitely best it. Imho. Still enjoy vinyl, but enjoying digital more.

All this proves is that the analog mastering for the the vinyl release is far superior to the digital mastering. That has been known for a long time among those who are familiar with this album.

I have been waiting for you guys to do this video for a while! I've been researching DACs (PBD, Metranome and T + A) but since I have an extensive SACD collection, I would also like to have a transport as well, preferably from the same company. I believe MSB discontinued their transport. NONE of these combinations are cheap ($40 - 62K). The point for a lot of us I believe, me for sure, is to get the BEST sound we prefer, you cannot have BOTH analog and digital. It's just too expensive. So I think it's best to go ALL IN on one, but which one??? It is more fair to compare an LP to a DSD file, not a 44.1K CD or any streaming option. MQA has not taken off and there are very few disks available. Not sure how many titles can be streamed MQA and if that is important. So . . . I would love to have Mikey bring his PBD DAC , as well as their transport (maybe borrowed from PBD) and compare that to Jay's vinyl set up!!!!! Help us decide! !!!! PLEASE!!!!!

Someone I know who actually owns both the MSB Select II and dCS Vivaldi stacks describes the former as "ruthless" and the latter as "lifelike", and by this doesn't mean to say one is better than the other. But it aptly describes why I prefer the sound of dCS and Playback Designs: the MSB isn't really more resolving, but it seems to draw one's attention to detail instead of a more holistic experience of the music. I can easily understand that people are going to have their preferences, but mine is not cerebral. In addition, when one listens to a lot of classical music, the resolving power of dCS and MSB comes into play more than with other types of music. With the music OCD Mikey listens to, the Playback Designs is lovely, and it costs less than either of the other two. Having said all this, I'm wondering why you'd pick the MQA (a decompressing gadget) of the digital versus the high-resolution PCM (the latter is what the MSB, an R2R ladder DAC, does best)?

Just try some Audio Note dac, end of the search.

I agree vinyl has a sudio texture. I like both and don't prefer one over the other. However I find I do enjoying the experience of playing album especially old analog created vinyl. I never find myself listening to digital versions of those albums anymore.

I agree, I've had a number of turntables, all of which were less costly than the digital sources I've owned, and own, and the vinyl always sounds better, it sounds more like music, rather than precise reproduction of music. And I've had professional musicians with decades of experience blown away by the difference and subsequently agree with me, when presented with an A/B comparison of both formats.

You can cry and pray But tubes are. Tubes

@davidcross890

Жыл бұрын

Obviously never heard the absolute state of the art in solid state

If you are accustomed to listening to unamplified music in real space, not hard amplified or over processed mixing, the digital gets closer. Listening to live music at high levels will wear you out quicker. A live non amplified Symphony never has the kind of detail and imaging placement you get in high-end audio for the exception of air. That being said, when listening in one's home, the exaggerated cues help improve the feeling of being at a concert.The analog smooth sound can of certain types of music be more involving and will allow you to listen longer. With the level of components being used, a strong case can be made that cable swapping could push the sound one way or the other. I would like to hear a comparison using only non amplified performances like big band orchestra. One final point was that the analog rig was considerably more expensive. It's still fun listening to differences through a very revealing system.

Ultra High End has it place for those who find the diminishing returns on investment per the improvement to sonic quality is irrelevant.

Should have picked The Chain! Dreams is good, but the Chain!!!!!

Can I come? I have a vacation home in fort Lauderdale!

would be interesting to compare playback vs kronos ....this will be comparison of the year.Ha OCD is like a child - he has to win!

Not on the same level as you but I have an esoteric k0-3 sacd player and a Brinkmann balance turntable and in my experience the vinyl is much better thanks Jay. Cheers Clive

I agree.... if you're playing a good pressing there's not a DAC that will give you what vinyl can... the warmth, texture and feeling and the involvement with playing an Album. You lay down a record you are playing at least that whole side if not the whole record... digital I want to get to another track before the track is even done playing. Digital is more convenient I will say and sounds very good. Just not as good as a good record

Steaming with MQA isn't the same as using a digital file via a computer. Use the Playback designs without streaming using the same pressing / master. That's the only way to more fairly compare the two. The streamer gets in the way.

Get Mikey back with the PBD DAC and find out...

Vinyl introduces distortion, as does a speaker, but it’s good distortion that adds euphoric colour to the sound, that makes it pleasant to the human ear. In the end every instrument, recording studio, room, speaker, instrument, microphone is man made. A bird singing is not man made, you will never ever recreate reality of the sound of nature (reality) via a man made replica, simply not possible. Just enjoy what you have for what it is, at any price it’s nowhere near the true sound of a biological sound of a living thing!😮

33.3 rpm Your new to vinyl!