My attitude here is roughly 9/11-ish, i.e. "the people who died didn't deserve it and it wasn't _good_ that this happened, but it was bound to happen with how angry people have been getting at you, and the only way to stop it from happening is to stop making people angry at you"

@Thyinternet

9 ай бұрын

Well put

A discussion about Palestinian resistance with anyone that has the passive Zionist perspective that's popular in America will always go the same way: They ask you how you can justify terrorism, you tell them that all Israel has to do is end the occupation, lift the blockade, enfranchise Palestinians, and end the ethnostate project, they say you're ridiculous. You ask them what Americans would justify if any other country did to us what Israel does to Palestine, and they have no answer. Simply put, anyone that supports Israel fully believes that Palestinians are less than human, and they deserve less. From the river to the sea.

@g-money1247

9 ай бұрын

​@@mdgprogrammerYou don't exist.

I am having trouble coping hearing about it. My blood boils. The double standards. The open racism against Palestinians. Not a thing to follow coming off antidepressants. Imagine living it! Makes me feel sick

Nobody insists that Israel only employ non-violent approaches, even though Israel actually has such options…

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

Yes we do - I get your point but many of us realize Israel has the MOST responsibility to avoid using violence against civilians given the asymmetry of the military and its international position with the US

@evanweiss71

9 ай бұрын

​@@awtodornoone with institutional influence

@berdyderg900

9 ай бұрын

Right because they're evil

@trashpanda6885

9 ай бұрын

​@awtodor they mean nobody with power obviously

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

​@@trashpanda6885that's why I said I get their point

When you unjustly force people into an open air prison eventually they're going to plan a prison break.

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

They aren't though. They believe just as deeply as Israelis in an ethno state. Thus they just want to exact any toll on anyone. They view Israel as illegimate and anyone within it's border a target. It's the same ethno state bs Israel believes in

@nathangill8404

9 ай бұрын

They're already is a Palestinian state. It's called Jordan. The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have refused a two-state solution. They choose war. They continue to choose war. Thus, they chose war and they will have it. The chips will fall. The ancient Israelites conquered Canaan. They'll do it again. And frankly, I don't blame them. The Palestinians, so called, chose Hamas did not choose peace will not compromise and murder Americans and others. Fuck them.

@marcodallolio9746

9 ай бұрын

​@@nathangill8404Nathan, chill

@kennybachman35

9 ай бұрын

@@awtodorPalestinians are more than one ethnicity.

@kennybachman35

9 ай бұрын

@@nathangill8404there’s no such thing as ancient Israelites. Israel was founded in 1948. But you might recognize the Ancient Palestinians as the Amalekites. Y’know, from the bible.

Morning star editorial: if you hate the violence of the oppressed, then stop the oppression. You can hate hamas and yet realise the solution is the end of the oppression

@QGfk1

9 ай бұрын

I think Will tends to take a reasonable position on it, which is that revolutionary violence is not something to necessarily lionize or demonize, and may be useful or may be counterproductive (considering this is going to get gaza flattened in exchange for mowing down a bunch of civilians and taking a hundred hostages I would count this as counterproductive), but it is GOING to happen if you produce the conditions for it. Hamas are a bunch of lunatics who were propped up by israel to undermine fatah, classic blowback that this wouldn't have been such a brutal attack if they weren't the only resistance to the east, but something like this would have happened eventually even if fatah was still in charge of gaza.

@Thyinternet

9 ай бұрын

@@QGfk1I agree.

The "non-violent options" and the "2-state solution" is simply the status quo. The West Bank is being actively annexed and has been for decades, while the Palestinian authorities there try to peacefully negotiate and settle things in courts with absolute futility, making it extremely obvious that there never was plans for Palestinian statehood at the end of this road. Recognizing that Hamas, their prominence and their actions, are a symptom of this brutal strategy, running all the way through the cold war where alternative political formations (Secularists, Communists, Socialists, Anarchists etc) were actively suppressed by Israel and the West in favor of Hamas, isn't a defense of their actions - it is simply noting that all this, indeed, could have been prevented.

@sanchezstubbs6899

9 ай бұрын

Oh yes, we got here just as your said. Lol

The fact is, if Canada or Mexico was treating Americans the way Israel treats Palestinians, there would be no argument at all about what constitutes "legitimate resistance".

@Gotsyn

9 ай бұрын

Canada treats its own natives like terrorists when they don’t comply with oil companies, and send police officers with shares in said oil company to crack skulls. Canada does the same thing in Bolivia and Mexico. They don’t care, Canada is a big resource extaction company, like the US

In my suburban Chicago area I have to turn the volume WAY down when listening to this.

All these long-time fans here asking questions and showing concern about tactics are real. No uptick in hasbara concern-trolling during Israeli escalations, no sir.

How many towns across America tell glowing stories of valiant local native leaders fighting against American colonial settlers?

Remember Rachel Corrie

The Cherokee resistance against US settlers was heroic, and their failure is to be lamented. The Korean resistance against Japanese settlers was heroic, and their success is to be celebrated. The ANC resistance against european settlers was heroic, and their success is to be celebrated. And a lot of them had higher body counts than Hamas. Free Palestine.

@Badtown1988

9 ай бұрын

Except they were all distinctly fighting for a cause here on earth, not for fucking points in the afterlife. Of all the points you could make, glorifying Hamas is the most insane.

@PoolNoodleGundam

9 ай бұрын

@@Badtown1988 Palestine and Palestinians are still on this earth, last I checked. Or has Israel completed the genocide already?

@justcommenting4981

9 ай бұрын

Yes. Add Haiti, Vietnam, and Liberia to a long list of desperate violence in response to clinical sadism. It helps just a little bit to know others are out there that see as you do.

@justcommenting4981

9 ай бұрын

​@@Badtown1988so you think 9/11 was because women wear pants huh?

@SHVRWK

9 ай бұрын

@@PoolNoodleGundam Hamas is a radical Islamic movement that endorses the eradication of Jews as a paramount purpose, that was the point.

Sane talk in an insane world

Very well-articulated segment.

What’s happening is incredibly awful. There are no words to describe it. I woke up today & it’s the first thing I thought about. My thoughts do nothing of course. But I’m just a regular person. With just a GED & no college degree. Yet, if even I know & care about this, then maybe things are a changing. Maybe the Palestinian plight is breaking thru. I don’t know what good it will do, but it is a difference. Now I want to address something negative that I see. I think that seeing all of the carnage makes some people think: thank god it’s not me, & how do I insure that it’s never me who’s getting bombed? And that makes them publicly stand with the most powerful country on earth, even while sensing that it’s morally wrong. So I don’t know what will come of this. Maybe things will get worse before they get better. I just don’t see how much worse they could get though. Will there be anything left of Gaza & will the survivors even be allowed to return?

@cryptbeast3222

9 ай бұрын

Even worse, and it's barely being reported, Israelis have also put killing Palestinians in the West Bank on hyper drive too. They've been arming up settlers and giving them full permission to shoot whatever Palestinians they feel like. It's just a genocidal disaster on every front.

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free

@Jonmad17

9 ай бұрын

Where do you want Israelis to go? Most are Mizrahi Jews kicked out of Arab lands and have no other home.

@chrisoleson9570

9 ай бұрын

Explain this. I haven't heard anything about such a context. @@Jonmad17

@Jonmad17

9 ай бұрын

@@chrisoleson9570 After the formation of Israel the Jews living Arab countries were either expelled or persecuted as revenge for what happened to the Palestinians. Most ended up migrating to Israel, which is the only country that would have them. About 50-60% of the Jews in Israel are the descendants of these people.

@thisaccountkillsfascists3802

9 ай бұрын

This slogan is crazy to me, it openly admits there is no interest in a two state solution.

@ziul123

9 ай бұрын

​@@thisaccountkillsfascists3802if you look at maps of the area ranging from 1948 to now, you'll see that israel isn't too keen on a 2 state solution either

Settlement is an act of violence. Settlers in an occupied land are an arm of the state, politically and militarily. They are human shields. There to commit violence against the indigenous population and be the victims of violence by the indigenous population. Every act, gives greater justification to take more land and treat the occupied more harshly under the auspices of defense. That's colonialism. If you are a settler in an occupied land, you should expect violence as a reasonable response. This entire thing is horrible. Neither side has any reason to negotiate. Neither side can trust the other, with good reason. Israel will not compromise and the only thing Palestinians have that Israel will respect is violence. Israel made it that way.

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

They've been there 60+ years. This is a non-starter talking point. This doesn't get us to peace, it just says dig in deeper. "My ethno state is the real ethno state that deserves to exist" Completely nonsensical take this far down the line. Now if they were invading that's a different story and west bank settlements I agree with you on.

@PoolNoodleGundam

9 ай бұрын

@@awtodor That was the argument apartheid south africa had, and it was just as invalid for them as it is for israel.

@YFNA1978

9 ай бұрын

​​@@awtodorWhat peace do you expect to happen? Do you think either party will trust the other? Which international body has Israel not ignored when they condemn Israel's actions? Which international body has done anything to force Israel's compliance? Why should Palestinians trust those institutions? Why should they trust Israel? Who is an arbiter both sides will trust let alone listen to...? The only party that advocates for an ethnostate is a terrorist organization, that maintains power through desperation and fear... And the most powerful nation in the region, who extends a right to every person of their ethnicity, but deny to the people forcibly removed or fled in fear from violence. They do that to maintain a demographic.. Israel has the power to end it, they don't want to end it with an equitable solution. Who can doubt that?

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

​​@@PoolNoodleGundamwhat are you talking about? Did anyone ever kill everyone in South Africa to end apartheid? The point is a single state solution that acts toward peace. That's exactly what South Africa did.

@PoolNoodleGundam

9 ай бұрын

umkhonto we sizwe killed and took hostages, brutally and frequently, and that's explicitly how they brought the single state solution to the table @@awtodor

Here's a non-violent option: The US and European invaders can leave. They set up an outpost and an apartheid state, but that can be dismantled and they can leave. For the subset that could not actually go back to the country of origin, we can carve out a section of Germany and the 5 other Axis states in Europe for them to return to.

@romanmanner

9 ай бұрын

In dreams 😂

@dickdrapper5491

9 ай бұрын

How about you leave.

Settler-colonial mindset everywhere in these comments. Oppressed people everywhere reserve the right to violence. We will make no excuses for the terror.

Support to Palestine

Reagan should send the marines to Beirut!

israel has all the power, hamas will not be their saviors because hamas doesnt have any power in comparison

Know what, fuck it .... Lets all head towards one last crusade

Move a million Palestinians from Gaza to West Bank. Give part of Jerusalem to Palestine. Israel absorbs one million left behind in Gaza. (What happens to million jews in West Bank? They become Palestinian citizens?)

@justcommenting4981

9 ай бұрын

It would be really funny if they just revoked rights of Israelis and made them Palestinians as part of a deal. I think that is almost a Chapel skit. They will do that eventually anyway. Ethnostate gonna ethnostate.

@SHVRWK

9 ай бұрын

@@justcommenting4981 It's never funny.

@justcommenting4981

9 ай бұрын

@@SHVRWK if I didn't laugh I would cry.

This fight in my opinion this does not bode well for the youth of Israel. We talking fight for generations. If America, with all it munitions, didn’t rid the world of the Taliban I highly doubt Israel will do that to Hamas.

@LeRon832

9 ай бұрын

They're creating a whole new generation of terrorists right now

@SHVRWK

9 ай бұрын

Israel fought multiple wars where they were outnumbered and they came out victorious. Your statement is almost hilarious if the situation wasn't tragic.

I don't really see Palestinian violence leading to any tangible results for them tho??

@marycanary3871

9 ай бұрын

are you kidding?!

@stasikapetanos1395

9 ай бұрын

It drove the Israeli army out of Lebanon and is ruinning Israel. Israel/Palestine is arguably the most dangerous place in world for Jewish people to live.

@kevintipcorn6787

9 ай бұрын

See how the West Bank is being eaten up by settlers, that part is where the non violent people won the day. Its wasn't happening in Gaza until Biden greenlit this current genocide.

@samsca8529

9 ай бұрын

I don’t know how people can look at the last several conflicts of the previous two decades and not see your point

@samsca8529

9 ай бұрын

@@stasikapetanos1395It’s ruing Gaza a lot more

the american left is so deluded, holy shit hahahaha

5:12 certainly not kill thousands of unarmed civilians, kidnap children and women back to Gaza so they get raped, tortured or humiliated.

@PoolNoodleGundam

9 ай бұрын

This is such efficient projection, they should make you an IMAX projector

@awtodor

9 ай бұрын

​@@harrybirchall3308true

@SHVRWK

9 ай бұрын

@@harrybirchall3308 Boy do I have news for you about the side Iran and Islamic Brotherhood has been propping up for decade except that it's not news and you still go the extra excruciating miles to justify rape and terrorism. Just love how you idiots always bring up America lol that nation completely captured your corroded brains.

@theletterw3875

9 ай бұрын

​@@SHVRWKhow do you think we perceive you right now? What do you think you are accomplishing? Do you have any idea how easy it will be for people to form new prejudices against Israelis by the behavior of the people who troll on their behalf? If you want to have any impact here *be human* or understand you are creating new stereotypes and that's on you alone.

@SHVRWK

9 ай бұрын

@@theletterw3875 Couldn't give a fuck about how a tankie brainrot perceive me lol

People aren't bemoaning the violence, they're outraged that they could target women and children in areas that aren't even under dispute. Hamas didn't target settlers, it targeted Israelis as a whole. If you can't say that this isn't okay, then your ideology has trumped your humanity.

@TheRealAmericanMan

9 ай бұрын

You do understand that Israel has created a nation that DOES THIS to Palestinians and requires all their citizens to join a military to do exactly this right?

@Jonmad17

9 ай бұрын

​@@TheRealAmericanMan And do you realize that the majority of Israelis are Mizrahi Jews kicked out of Arab lands for being Jewish? Most of these people aren't settlers who consented to being part of a nation that has universal conscription and engages in oppression, they're the descendants of refuges who quite literally have no other home. People shouldn't be charged with the crimes of their governments, and this goes for both Israelis and Palestinians.

@ziul123

9 ай бұрын

​@@Jonmad17 Israel kills women and children: omigosh they're displaced, you can't be so judgemental 😢 Hamas kills women and children: if you support them, your ideology has trumped humanity 😡

@willknowsright9615

9 ай бұрын

two wrongs make a right......brilliant. No one ever learns @@TheRealAmericanMan

@nicholasbostelman7761

9 ай бұрын

Let me tell you a secret. It's all Palestine. Gaza can attack wherever it wants. Lol

chapo has fallen

@walexander8378

9 ай бұрын

Oy vey

@onalos1271

9 ай бұрын

What is this? More IDF hasbara?

@commenter381

9 ай бұрын

​@@onalos1271more like hasbro because it's profitable, mass-produced, and targets children

@justcommenting4981

9 ай бұрын

​@@onalos1271what else? We need to find a way to bully drone and fighter pilots online.

@willknowsright9615

9 ай бұрын

Nice title. It should be a movie my brither in Christ :)

Did anyone on Chapo even bother to condemn Hamas atrocities or was the whole gist that “Hamas are freedom fighters fighting for the Palestinians”

@MisunderstoodWierdo

9 ай бұрын

They are. What’s your point?

@ts-wo6pp

9 ай бұрын

My pearls are clutched personally

@onalos1271

9 ай бұрын

Did you condemn apartheid and genocide against Palestinians? Of course no one wants civilian casualties but they're pretty much guaranteed in war. I've never seen a war where civilians weren't also attacked occasionally. Look at what Israel is doing now. Do they look like they give 1 single f*** about attacking civilians???

@valeriesummers8100

9 ай бұрын

Motherfucker who cares, Palestinians are on the brink of explicit genocide and have lived in an apartheid regime for decades, they have no electricity, no food, no drinkable water, foreign aid gets seized or fucking bombed by Israel, half their population are children, and Israel spends its time shooting mothers and bombing apartments and ambulances and funerals. Literally who cares about Hamas in the face of literal genocide?

@garcalej

9 ай бұрын

They’re not freedom fighters. Far from it. But given that the Israeli government made an agreement with the previous resistance movement, the PLO, which was more moderate and amicable to a two-state solution m, and then nonetheless proceeded to break that agreement by continuing to annex territory while giving Palestinians on either side of the border few if any rights equal to those afforded Jewish citizens, Hamas was able to fill that role of “resistance” in the eyes of many Palestinians, even though as an organization they are as brutal and fanatical as any right wing Zionist organization. The point is that Israel has created the conditions that allow violent groups as Hamas to grow and maintain support among the populace. Desperate, stupid people do desperate and stupid shit. They join terrorist groups. They invest in crypto currencies. They vote for Trump. Their actions are of people who understand the world at a very emotional, grounded level. If your reality is defined by walls, bombs, and poverty, the source of that misery is your natural enemy, and any group fighting that oppressive outside force an ally by default. That’s human nature. It’s reactive self-interest.

Always remember Chapo listeners that these guys' bitterness about the world is rooted in the fact that Mother Nature beat them all badly with the Ugly Stick, to the point that none of them ever had a chance of even kissing (let alone have sex with) an attractive woman in their lives. When Menaker's face settled into that ridiculous shape at age 16 or 17, he made up his mind about the world right there and then.

@Grilledcheeseofftheradiator

9 ай бұрын

What

@Avengerie

9 ай бұрын

He supports Palestine because… *checks notes* he can’t have sex!

@lanceblankenship9995

9 ай бұрын

Felons are cool. The average felon in the US reads at a 6th grade level. The average IQ of an incarcerated person in the US is 90. People with an IQ below 90 often struggle with recursion, chronology, following multi-step tasks, filling out forms, reading a bus schedule, remembering to take a new vitamin, and not keeping themselves out of prison.@@Grilledcheeseofftheradiator

@Grilledcheeseofftheradiator

9 ай бұрын

@@lanceblankenship9995 you mean people who grow up in poor areas with bad school systems who turn to crime aren't as smart as others? Also is that a specific crime group? I highly doubt Sex offenders who are predominantly White and graduate High school are calculated in that. Most are middle/upper middle class. Crime is directly connected to poverty.... Thanks for informing I suppose.

@aakashbasu3219

9 ай бұрын

I mean I'm handsome as fuck but still bitter about the world so like

I hate how Israel’s creation of Hamas and support for them being seen as the only legitimate Palestinian resistance has basically worked. It’s led all the discourse on the American left to basically be either you support the Israeli apartheid government or the brave Hamas freedom fighters. We should view Hamas as the symptom of Israeli occupation, but it all just ends up getting dumbed down in the end

@tzusun6876

9 ай бұрын

I feel like leftists generally make this distinction. At least in my bubble-I could be wrong. It's libs/Democrats who make it into a rhetorical trap where the only option is supporting "good/legal" Israel.

The problem is that there has been violent resistance by the Palestinians against Israel, especially in the last 20 years, (The Intifadas, the previous Hamas-Israel conflicts) and the situation is still worse now than ever. They talk about it like this is the first time armed Palestinian groups have ever really fought back, but it’s not. To be honest, I’m not really sure what would solve this conflict at this point, since the Israeli government is worse than it ever has been. But if Hamas sneak attacks into Israel that kill a few thousand people and result in half of Gaza being internally displaced is the best solution, then the hopes for the Palestinian people seem pretty fucking hopeless